Toughman death update

[meltdawn]

please keep aware of this situation. both the outcome and the ensuing legislation should be of importance to all competitors.

http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?SearchID=73143976321484&Avis=SH&Dato=20030812&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=308120379&Ref=AR

[old jong]

These things are not competitions.They allow people without any training to get a beating in public. There is actually a banalisation of fighting and it's risks.The fact that the ordinary "Mom" is willing to fight in a ring is a proof in itself.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

anyone who knows me knows that it sickens me when people don't take responsibility for their own actions. there is something terribly wrong with the world when a fata ss decides it's not completely ludicrous to sue a fast food company.

that said there were 4 deaths in toughman within a couple months of this incident. how many have there been in professional boxing? ever?

[Black Jack]

I would not call her a ordinary mom. Ordinary moms are not all white trash brawlers who step into toughman rings to slug it out.

[Shaolin-Do]

Its ignorant as f*ck to let 2 completely untrained people duke it out with apparently lacking refferees....

[TonyM.]

Those cretins are complete arseholes and should get a near death beating themselves.:mad:

[Black Jack]

A vast measure of responsiblity has to fall on the people who step into the ring and the waiver that they signed.

Just saying that ordinary moms don't brawl it out. The ******* had kids.

[old jong]

Yeah!...Everybody is responsable for his/her actions but...Are they well informed in the beginning?...Are they aware that a blow to the head can cause more dammage than anticipated sometimes?...Some people have unknown conditions and a strike without consequences for most will cause a vein rupture in the brain.
As I said earlier, the banalisation of fighting we see today is in cause because ...Hey!...It's cool to spar full contact!.Taking head blows make you tougher, you learn not to freeze when hitted and all that stuff. It can be very dangerous to be hit as it can be very dangerous legally to hit somebody,unless you really have to.
The point is: It is not an uninformed amator business.The pros take their risks as calculated risks.They have to pass medical tests before and after a fight and they will be put out of the game if there is a possible brain/eye whatever risk of severe injury for the future.

[Chang Style Novice]

Ol' Jong has taken the correct in his jaws and shaken it like a terrier snapping a rat's neck.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Ol' Jong has taken the correct in his jaws and shaken it like a terrier snapping a rat's neck.

Hey!...This needs to be immortalised!...I'Ll put this in my signature! ;)

[Black Jack]

Does well informed include reading and signing a waiver which states that serious injury and possible death could be the outcome of the match.:rolleyes:

In clear black and white it states the possible outcome of such an event. There is no victim here. She entered the ring of her own free will. The responsibility is her own in the end of the day.

Does that mean that I think Toughman is run as best as it could?

Heck no.

Could there have been ref problems?

Sure.

Could this have been prevented?

Yeah, she could of comprehended the waiver and not stepped into the ring.

[old jong]

I never saw those papers but I'm sure that they have all the small character clauses in order to protect the organiser of these events.
I'm sure also that there must be a lot of brainwashing talking before signing these papers...." hey!..We have a good referee.He will stop the fight the instant he feels there is danger. Or...Nobody can get hurt with those big marshmallows you're going to wear.Or...See my records?...Nobody died in the last two weeks!...;)

[Chang Style Novice]

Does the social contract (see John Locke) indicate that people are not only responsible for their own well being but for the well being of others as well? Yes indeedy-doo!

[Black Jack]

Its not really a social contract but a waiver of responsibility on the terms of the Toughman corporation in the happenstance of a accidental injury, maiming or death. Same as you sign in many a martial art school but I would wager much more indepth.

The corporation has to provide proper ring side emergency care and other elements of conduct but the choice to enter the ring is yours and your alone. This choice puts the final outcome of responsibility on there own shoulders.

Just like the fatarse who tries to sue macdonalds for getting fat, or smokers who try to sue for getting cancer, or idiots that try to sue gun manufacturers because somebody was shot, or sue a school because there kid is a idiot, its called pass the buck.

[Liokault]

I see this as normal evolution.


Stoopid people step into the ring (partly it seems to show other white trash just how ignorant they are) and die.

Now if we keep this up we will breed a sub class of super stupid super tough white trash.

Now we just need to find a use for white trash.


QUOTE]that said there were 4 deaths in toughman within a couple months of this incident. how many have there been in professional boxing? ever?[/QUOTE]


Then its good that a law is being passed that alows only (I assume full contact) events sanctioned by a boxing body?

[old jong]

What can I say?...
I'm sure they could start a big worldwide "Roulette Russe" competition and find enough contestants!...Just sign the waiver ,here on the dotted line please!...:rolleyes:
Those are the days...(Would sing Archie Bunker)

[Chang Style Novice]

You're not really familiar with John Locke, are you, Jack?

[Surferdude]

Pitiful!!!:mad:

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
that said there were 4 deaths in toughman within a couple months of this incident. how many have there been in professional boxing? ever?

Quite a fair amount, actually. I think the Electronic Journal of Martial Arts and Sciences did an article about deaths in the boxing ring here (http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm), with the total being over a thousand (from the clippings mentioned).

Sanctioning bodies help, but frankly any time you step into the ring, you're taking a calculated risk (as was previously mentioned). There's also a myriad of reasons why people die in the ring, from accumulated head trauma to dehyrdation to pre-existing medical conditions.

Discuss.

[Black Jack]

Chang,

Not that familiar, I can not be everywhere at once. It can state the moon is made of green cheese but I still don't see how a person can take the viewpoint that this "lady" has no responsibility in her actions.

Kinda seems to fall into "the big bad corporation should know better because we all believe that the average person is just to stupid to make there own sound judgements and should be protected from themselves" line of social think.

[fa_jing]

They should actually require a reading test before the contestant is allowed to read the waiver/contract/whatever. I'm quite sure that the woman in question would not have passed.

[meltdawn]

being in the third row ringside, i have a pretty strong opinion regarding the events.

recap: the woman turned her back to her opponent when she realized how over-faced she was, then turned back and shook her head "no" to the ref, waiving her hands. he did not stop the fight. the woman turned and walked into the corner, shaking her head and waiving her hands as her oponent landed over ten shots to her unguarded head, both rabbit punches and punches to the sides. she finally turned back to her opponent out of self-preservation, was hit a few more times in the head, and went down.

the promoter skirted the boxing commission by not involving cash prizes. he also tried to get a chiropractor as a ringside doc.

sure, you sign a waiver to get in a cage and swim with sharks too. if the captain decides to open the cage door when the great white is approaching, who becomes responsible? i'm not on a soapbox (yes, i paid my $10 to see the dog-and-pony show), i just feel bad for a family who helplessly watched their mother get pummelled senseless without the intervention of the ref.

the widower is actively approaching all local legislators in an effort to get these events stopped. it will be interesting to see what state legislation arises from this as someone in government takes up the cause for his or her own promotion and gain. even though this does not fall within the jurisdiction of the boxing commission, laws do have a way of sliding sideways. i refer everyone back to recent legislation in NY that effectively stopped competition.

just trying to keep everyone informed, as i think this incident and what arises from it is relevent to all of us in the martial arts. imho.

[red5angel]

I'm with Black jack for the most part. You sign a waiver then you are aware of the risks. You didn't read it, thats not anyones fault but your own. Our legal system needs to start backing this up not supporting stupidity.
Meltdown, you obviously bring up some details that are important to know in this particular case. I can see a lawsuit because the Ref was negligent, obviously since he didn't stop te fight wen it should have been stopped. In this case I am alright with this but in general, you sign a waiver, as far as I am concerned you have acknowledged the risks of a given activity and are ok with them.

[old jong]

It's easy to talk tough but ,If it was your wife?...

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by old jong
It's easy to talk tough but ,If it was your wife?...

This raises a good point. From what I understand, the husband was trying to get the wife to fight/keep fighting. I doubt he understand the potential implications of a ring fight.

I wouldn't let my wife get in there. But then I;m trained and I know what can happen.

Add to that the fact that the other girl was apparently a ringer and a professional fighter and it's not as cuc and dry as "She signed a waiver"

[Chang Style Novice]

John Locke would choke out Friedrich Nietzche and Ayn Rand both at once.

[meltdawn]

Originally posted by Water Dragon

This raises a good point. From what I understand, the husband was trying to get the wife to fight/keep fighting. I doubt he understand the potential implications of a ring fight.


i think you've misread it. the husband fought earlier and was being treated, he did not yell for his wife to continue. the ref was looking out towards the promotor, and towards another well-known local boxing promoter who was yelling "stop the fight". apparently the ref was listening to his boss.

[red5angel]

I wouldn't let my wife get in there. But then I;m trained and I know what can happen.

So if that is what your wife wanted to do, consequences or no, she still couldn't do it?
I hope that works both ways. If it were my wife you can bet I would be grieving, but she signed the waiver and she got into the ring voluntarily. I may go after the ref in this case because he probably should have stopped the fight but if the refereeing were clean then you live with it.

[Water Dragon]

-edited-.

[Shaolin-Do]

If it was my wife or even friend for that matter, I would have climbed in the ring myself....

[red5angel]

well atleast your enlightened fair and open minded :rolleyes:

[Shaolin-Do]

Seriously.
wouldnt let the "wife" (dont have one) fight to begin with, but if it got to the point that it did, Id jump in the ring myself. Kick the "ref"'s ass on the way to beat the snot out of the promoter too if she died.
If you remember to act immediately, america has lots of loopholes due to "heat of the moment" type reactions... "temporary insanity" i believe.
:eek:

[red5angel]

I guess if my wife really wanted to do something I wouldn't stop her, espcially since she isn't stopping me from fighting.

[Shaolin-Do]

My wife better be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. The mistress is for lookin good.


:eek: !!!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Quite a fair amount, actually. I think the Electronic Journal of Martial Arts and Sciences did an article about deaths in the boxing ring here, with the total being over a thousand (from the clippings mentioned).

ring deaths or pro deaths? but thats not really the point.

i don't think the toughman should be legally punished unless their reff was negligent (which may be the case by the sounds of it). i completely agree with the sign a waver and go fu ck yourself crowd. my point was simply that it's becoming apparant that this organization really needs to better monitor their competitors. it might not be a big deal for your local mma tournament, but something as widespread as toughman needs to feel more responsible for the safety of their atheletes.

[David Jamieson]

I have to agree with OJ on the whole matter.

Professionals do this and have the training to do it. Some yutz from the burbs with an attitude and some ego to stroke doesn't belong in the ring flailing away at each other with 0 training.

It's an extension of our penchant for voyeurism on so many levels and is yet another shining example of stupidity in society. Waivers or not, this was a dumb decision to make on the woman's part, on the husbands part and on the promoters part.

This type of thing needs strict regulation not unlike the boxing commisions and federations where there are hard and fast rules about who gets to firght and who they get to fight.

Obviously, the promoter is just preying on human inaneness to fuel the old pockets. And OJ is absolutely correct in his observation of you can talk all the smack and bravado BS you want, but if it was your family member would it be ok? THat's all it takes to put it into perspective.

May as well go back to roman times.:rolleyes:

regards

[Water Dragon]

What I find interesting, is that no one has even mentioned the other woman's responsibility. From what I've read, she's done some boxing and had over 5 fights. Every body likes to talk about that Wu De thing, but when it comes up no one mentions the other (trained) fighters moral responsibility.

[Laughing Cow]

And that the other fighter continued to hit her after she turned around and tried to walk away.

Sounds like the organisers of the event had a little chat with the "pro" fighter before the show to make it more interesting.

Definately there was no sportsmanship nor fairplay involved, but than what do you expect from a modern "dime/freak" show.


Seeya.

[old jong]

Originally posted by red5angel
I guess if my wife really wanted to do something I wouldn't stop her, espcially since she isn't stopping me from fighting.

Fighting and being in the middle of thinking about going from tma to mma is not the same thing.

Anyway,I am happy that there are still normal people in this forum who are against these freakshows.Weaver or not.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

im not against them. i just dont want to worry about a friend dying if they decide to enter one day. it's very rare to hear about someone dying in boxing, mma tourney, ufc, etc. its rare even in other amuature events.

there's always a risk sure, but 4 deaths in a couple months .... somethings fu cked up.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity


ring deaths or pro deaths? but thats not really the point.

i don't think the toughman should be legally punished unless their reff was negligent (which may be the case by the sounds of it). i completely agree with the sign a waver and go fu ck yourself crowd. my point was simply that it's becoming apparant that this organization really needs to better monitor their competitors. it might not be a big deal for your local mma tournament, but something as widespread as toughman needs to feel more responsible for the safety of their atheletes.


Actually, GDA, I think you and I are agreeing on the same basic principle-- namely you should be aware of the risks before you enter ANY type of competition. If you sign a waver, you'd better be ****ed sure you know what you're getting into, and even if you don't, you'd better realize what you're signing away with the waiver agreement.

That being said, I still think sanctioning bodies are a necessity, especially in combat sports. You absolutely need someone to overlook the potential combatants both before and after, to minimize the possible injuries inflicted and eliminate all the deaths possible. Unsanctioned events are just a recipe for disaster. :eek: :mad:

A good sanctioning body cuts down on the possible injuries-- imagine if professional boxing was any more lax on who fought who in what condition? (My answer: we'd see a lot more deaths/brain damage, based on the current death rate of modern boxers in competition, minus saftey restrictions and medical testings.)

Accidents may always happen, but good oversight of combat sports/contests can eliminate those tragic events which could have been prevented through simple examinations.

[TonyM.]

That was not a profesional event. The officiating was as close to criminal negligence as it could be. The low class retarded arseholes at FX have simply substituted idiots for fowl in a chicked fight. A pox on them and theirs.

[Liokault]

I have to say that almost every full contact event I watch or take part in has at least 1 fight that should clearly be stopped way before it is!

I have had to tell my oponent to go sit down when he was totaly unable to defend him self and the ref not being interested in his condition.

I have seen a guy get kicked to the floor 3 times with huge head kicks and showing no way to defend him self....he still came out for the second round.....and after the fight his trainer was angry at US for keeping quite how good our guy was.

My last fight was against a guy who got knocked to the floor twice in his previouse fight (we all had up to 3 fights on the day).
I knocked him to the floor with repeated head blows ..... told the ref he should stop the fight as the guy clearly had no way of defending him self. Ref would not stop fight so guy gets knocked out clean with even more head shots.




I could go on but my point is that the chance to get hurt is not the sole preserve of tough man contests and the untrained.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

toughman should have someone there to throw in the towel if sh it gets too bad. i think maybe that would be enough. i mean sh it would still happen, but if that ladys husband were ringside with a towel perhaps he would have thrown it in.