Does anyone do the Yang Lu Chan form?

[IronFist]

The fast one taught by Erle Montaigue. Is it cool? How long did it take to learn?

IronFist

[Laughing Cow]

AFAIK, Erle & his students are the only people teaching/practicing that one.

Said that his is not the only form said to be the true YLC form. ;)

Cheers.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I really doubt that it is the realYang Lu chan form at all to be honest. The whole story behind is a bit ropey.

Why is it that Yang family members dont teach it yet he does?

I do feel that Erle is a bit of an enterprising man (have seen the amount of products he sells??).

I don't to knock him to be honest but I sometimes find myself looking at some of the information he collects and think some of its ok and sometimes think no don't go near him.

I heard the story of him being trounced in some free push hands in Europe (possibly Belgium?!?) by a very famous yet very recluse Taiji practitioner when Erle tried to go ballistic and go for him and so totally neutralised him. People who know the story will hopefully know who the opponent was.

[patriot]

Wow, Erle is teaching the real YLC form! He should be crowned the true inheritor of Yang Tai Chi. All the Yang descendents should be studying with him since they don't claim to know the form.

[dre_doggX]

Ya, he has some pretty interesting stuff. Take note however, that alot of the times, people in any industry or feild often retake things different people say, and just make them more easier to understand. So people think they are a Guru when really all they did was just borrow stuff. But I dont believe this is wrong or fake.

his Yang Lu Chan form is different from the Yang ChengFu but you can still tell they are related.

[RAF]

If you accept that Yang Lu Chan (1799-1872) learned the Chen's frames over an 18 year period (current Yang family lineage holders accept this) and want a possible insight into what Yang Lu Chan's form looked like, take a look at Du Yu Ze's frame. In the clip below, he is about 79 and leaves out a tornado kick which was part of the the original frame. Master Du learned his frame from Chen Yan Xi, father of Chen Fake (1887-1957) so this frame probably existed in the mid 1850s and is the time frame of Yang Lu Chan (1799-1872) and sons.

http://www.kongfu.org/film/fist/TU_taichi.wmv
(2.91MB)

[IronFist]

Guys, my original question was "is it cool?" lol. So, in other words, has it benefitted your training at all? What have you taken away from it? How has it helped or hurt you? etc. etc.

IronFist

[RAF]

Iron Fist:

I think you are confusing the forms Erle Montaigue offers. I have his Yang Lu Chan tape and also his Yang Cheng Fu tape. The structure of the forms are similiar but the Yang Lu Chan form (Erle's tape) has a number of junctures where fajing is expressed in contrast to the smooth and continuous Yang Cheng Fu form (Erle's interpretation). There are, of course, some differences in postures and sequence but the forms seem to come from the same foundation as one would expect.

If you see or practice the Yang Lu Chan form (Erle's tape or interpretation), it is clearly not a fast form, like that seen in the Wu style. However, Erle does have a form called Pao Chui (I think he translates it as hammer fist???). Although I don't have the tape, I have access to the book and that may be the form you are referring to as the "fast" form. But, at least on my tape, the Yang Lu Chan form (Erle's intrepretation) is not a "fast" form.

Regards.

[Laughing Cow]

I got a list somewhere of all the sub-styles within Yang TJQ, Erle's is listed as one.

I think in order to find the true "old" set we need to look at the forms that YLC sons trained, they can still be found.

There is quiet a difference between the styles as to training methods, pace and length of forms.

Will try to find the articles and maybe post a quick digest here.

[IronFist]

When I said fast I just meant that he uses fajing in it, whereas in the YCF form he does not.

My appologies for using the wrong terms.

IronFist

[Laughing Cow]

Ironfist.

AFAIK, YCF style tries to hide the silk reeling and fa-jing within the form.

They are not as obvious as lets say in Chen or a few other Yang styles/lineages.

Where is Sam Wiley(?) when we need him, he could shed quiet a bit of light onto this topic.

Like that Video, forms is different to the one I know but than we are different lineages/styles.
;)

Cheers.

[IronFist]

So what is there to be gained by studying this form?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by IronFist
So what is there to be gained by studying this form?

IMO, nothing.

I haven't seen anything in his form that is not present in other forms.

But than I don't see the forms as the essence of TJQ.
;D

[Laughing Cow]

Just checked the Form again via the 4 books.

There are definite moves from Chen style in there too. Some jumps/kicks also appear equal to what we do.
Not surprised since YLC is known to have studied Chen style. ;)

Not giving my opinion of his execution of said moves. ;)
If anyone is interested pm me.

In the previous style I learned and my current style as I said we got everything that he has got in there.

If you can get past his unconventional naming standard for some of the moves it will be easier for non-TJQ people to see.

Granted some moves are executed differently from what I learned, higher stance, more impressive looking, different sequence, different stepping, etc.

Cheers.

[RAF]

Erle's material always tends to draw out big controversy. However, forms are much less interesting than displaying knowledge of the basic training (jiben gong). Simply practicing a form will not provide higher level skills. There are many variations in forms and many claim to have original "this and that". So whether this is the "original" form or not is less important than basic auxilliary training to the form and/or system.

IMO, no form in and of itself adds much to higher skill development (as stated). In fact, at a beginning level, I would suggest single moving postures are more important than the form itself but that is simply my observation not a cardinal rule. There are many ways to reach the top of a mountain. However, some are more efficient in terms of time and energy. Some paths simply keep you going in circles and you never reach the top. Other paths lead you back down to the base. A good map is always useful. Following too many maps is inefficient.

Iron Fist, good luck in your choice of maps and I hope you make it to the top.

[patriot]

...... and there are those who think Choy Suey and Fortune Cookies are genuine Chinese food.

[Sam Wiley]

Hello, all.

Iron Fist,
Erle's Yang Lu-chan form is my favorite of all the modern Taiji forms I have learned. I wouldn't call it a fast form, though it is done a bit faster than some others. But of course, you can do it extremely slow with no fa-jing if you want. I sometimes do.

Anyway, You would get pretty much the same things from practicing this form as other Taiji forms, provided whatever you are learning is learned correctly. Timing, balance, coordination, some fa-jing training...it's all the same. There are differences, of course, between this form and others, but the basics should be the same.

Personally, I have found very little in other Taiji forms that could not be found in this one, and I suspect that in time I will find those things in this form as well.

Any Taiji, when learned correctly, will benefit you. Personally, I think this is a very good form, and if you want to learn it, I say "go for it." It starts out difficult, but later on it gets a lot more difficult.;) (Inside joke to most here, probably.) I can't give you a timeframe as to how long it takes to learn because I still consider myself to be learning it. But I suppose you could learn the absolute basic movements in a few months or weeks. From there, it just gets deeper. There are intricacies to movement that I never considered before learning this form. That's the part that takes years, all the little detailed stuff. That's the stuff I'm still learning.

This whole post reminds me that I need to practice more.

[RAF]

In response to a private e-mail regarding my previous posts:

There are no judgements or attacks on Erle Montaigue's YLC or Yang Cheng Fu forms to be implied or directly read into my comments.

I find some of the postures very interesting in the YLC tape in that they correspond to some things I have learned. I am less interested in the form itself, than the jiben gong (or basic training) and there is no way for me to judge Mr. Montaigue's knowledge regarding that matter. Many people hold back on the simple but essential training, especially when marketing videos and I hope that will change in the upcoming years. Whats worse is that we all have different takes on what is considered basic training for taijiquan.

I, however, strongly disagree on Mr. Montaigue's take on the history, lineage and relationship of Yang and Chen's taiji. So what else is new? On this point, almost everyone is in some degree of disagreement but I wish he had not made theclaims that he did. Having said that, do not interpret that as a cirticism of him as a person. There is no need personalize it.

There is a lot of variation in forms and methods of training and no one can point to a standard of taijiquan performance that serves as a benchmark by which all other variations can be compared to or graded. Even the so-called classics have their limitations and may have multiple interpretations.

To my PM, I hope this clears the air. I have no grudge or personal beef with Mr. Montaigue. After all, I initially started my studies with Jou Tsung Hua. Who would I be to cast the first stone given his controversy and my utmost respect for him.

So, once again, good luck in your search, Iron Fist.

[dre_doggX]

http://www.taijiworld.com/CLIPS/video_clips.htm


I LIKE THEM. I think its nice. espeically the broadswords.


its nice

[jun_erh]

we , the tai chi public, don't care about his. We want to hear about the great violent tai chi master Yang Shou Hou. He was the black dic who was a sex machine to all the chicks.

[patriot]

The Sex Machine also committed suicide rather than honoring prearranged challanges.