kung fu

[Youngmantis]

Hey all i am confused about how to practice kung fu, my school
that teaches praying mantis, islamic longfist and tai chi chuan.

I told my instructor that i was doing pushups and situps and bag
work everyday, and he said that its not good to do that because
it'll tense me up too much and defeat the whole concept, so i was
wondering how am i suppose to practice kung fu if i can't workout?

[Laughing Cow]

You first need to develop good Body mechanics for your style, before you start training weights and for strength.

Go with your Instructors advise, he knows best how to develop fighters in his style.

Since you are beginner train your basics as much as you can, don't worry about the rest it will come when you are ready for it.
;)

The "secret" to becoming a good MA is basics, basics & more basics plus constant proper training.

Just my opinion naturally and means nothing.

[red5angel]

youngmantis, I have doe some training in some traditional martial arts and I hear that alot, about doing weight lifting or other muscle building exercises and tightening your body up, this just isn't true. If your working out, juts make sure you stretch everyday. I usually stretch before and after my workout and if I can before I go to bed in the evening.
As a matter of fact for the most part people report loosening up after an extended period of weight lifting, over a few months usually. For the most part the idea that weight lifting is bad for you in kungfu is an outdated and misunderstood concept.
Aslo, as LC said, basics basics basics.

[Youngmantis]

well its not that its tightening my body up, hes not worried about flexibility, he just said you have to be relaxed when you do this certain type of kung fu, and the relaxation helps you gain power, he said if I do pushups and situps, my muscles will be too tense and I won't be relaxed enough therefore there won't be as much power. So i thought there has to be some way to get muscle and still not screw up my kung fu.

[fa_jing]

Funny, because my 7-star praying mantis class required you to do pushups and situps!! And the instructor grew up and trained in China. Depends on the style. But listen to your teacher, or else go somewhere else. At first, you will be getting plenty of exercise just by doing drills, believe me. Your body needs time to adjust. If you feel you aren't getting some kind of a workout during class, especially in your legs, than you might not be in the right school. But I don't mean to discourage you from staying there - your teacher may want you to develop your technique first before starting to add strength training.

Maybe he just meant that you are doing a LOT of volume on your outside training for a beginner, and to cut back a bit?

[Laughing Cow]

Youngmantis.

Which of the 3 systems are you taught at the moment.

If it is TJQ, you will need to stretch the joints and learn to be relaxed before you start on strength training exercises.
Also you need to learn to use less "li" (muscle power) and more "Ii"(Intent).

Different systems got different requirements, some as fa-jing mentioned require you to build your body and muscles first in other you do so at a later stage.

Cheers

[Youngmantis]

Well we get to pick which system we want to be taught, but since i'm in beginners class we don't focus much on which style we want but teaching our body naturally to stay relaxed. Yesterday I went to kung fu and I got a huge workout, from doing stances punches, kicks etc. But Not a direct abdominal workout, so I'm worried I might lose my six pack if I don't do situps, but if I do situps I might get too tense and not be able to successfully do the movements and forms correctly.

Sorry for any spelling errors, I just woke up.

[Xdr4g0nx]

I train in HK Mantis and my sifu had us do crunches and push ups at the end of every classes. he said the reason whe do crunches is that kung fu doesnt train the abs and the abs are essential for the body mechanics, rotating for punches and kicks and blocks and moving and everyting . :D

[Youngmantis]

wouldn't rotating for the punches work the abs too though?

[PAMantis]

Well this is just the rambelings of a new 7* student, but here goes nothing. At the begining of each class we do streching, and 4 sets of 25 of push-ups, crunches/sit-ups, and hindu squats. We also train throwing weighted punches, throw many, many slow precise kicks, and do tendon training.

Then the fun starts . . . we do forms, applications, even a little sparring. The reason as my Sifu says is that we will exhaust our muscles to the point that we have no choice but to be relaxed. Our muscles are too dam n tired to be tense. I have noticed that after said "warm up" I never am told that my shoulders are raising, or that My body posture is too rigid.

That being said we focus on a lot of proper body mechanics while we throw the kicks and punches, and when we do the forms (at least at the stage that I am) we do them slow emphasizing proper movement and balance. Eventually the intent and power will come, but first we need to do the basics.

Just a thought about your workout, are you doing the push-ups and sit-ups right before you go to class? If so it may be that your Sifu is concerned that when you get to class your muscles will still be a bit tense from your workout and will interfere with his/her particular training method. Also I may be wrong, but if you keep up with your cardio, you will have a hard time loosing the sixpack. When you breathe all of your breathing exercizes are using your abs, because all breathing should be controlled by your abs and diaphram, not your ribs/chest.

Again just my rambelings, any comments?


PAMantis

[yenhoi]

If someone is telling you not to do regular bodyweight training then they are probably nuts and cant fight.

Or they are nuts and they can fight.

nuts.

;)

[Black Jack]

Yenhoi, I so agree, true dat, where do these people come up with this bullcrap.:(

Working out builds key attributes, its builds confidence, aggression and fortitude of spirit.

Start working out.

[Laughing Cow]

Youngmantis.

IMO, if you doubt what your Sifu is saying and you are looking for extra advise online, than there is something not quiet right.

Who do you want to learn from?
The guys on here or your Sifu?

Have you related those worries you got to your sifu and talked with him about them?

Not trying to come down on you, but I see more and more students questioning what their Sifu tells them, makes me wonder who got the knowledge and why people still need a Sifu.

Honestly talk about it with your Sifu and ask him to give you reasons as to why.

If you are not satisfied with the answer than you can look for another kwoon.

Just my thoughts.

[yenhoi]

I think 100% of the problem is sifu says.

Sifu says think this way.

Even if the Sifu didnt say it.

bs, and then more bs.

:eek:

[Water Dragon]

Yenhoi, Sifu said you shouldn't talk like that on the internet.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I think 100% of the problem is sifu says.

Sifu says think this way.

Even if the Sifu didnt say it.

bs, and then more bs.

:eek:

Like I said if Sifu talks that much rubbish than what to we need them for?
Why even sign up at a kwoon and study a style?
;)

Come on Yenhoi tell me how YOU learned MA and gained all that knowledge and skill if YOUR Sifu talked that much rubbish too.

[Serpent]

youngmantis - you MUST be fit and strong to practice kung fu. Unless you want to be a new-age-taichi-for-health-hippy. You have to work out. You also have to stay supple and relaxed to perform your kung fu correctly. Yin yang.

Talk to you teacher more about it and he might explain himself better. But any kung fu without good muscle, cardio and flexibility workouts is NOT good kung fu.

[Youngmantis]

well the thing is hes not really my sifu, hes just the instructor, and the sifu only teachers advance classes, my instructor although is still very good at teaching, the workout thing is just a little confusing, but he also teaches longfist which probably i s the thing that got him to think that way.

[SevenStar]

I doubt it. When I was in longfist, we worked out constantly. it consisted mainly of BWE (bodyweight exercises) and some apparatus training. I always did extra and hit the weights - contrary to what some people at the school thought, it did nothing to slow me down or limit my flexibility.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow



Come on Yenhoi tell me how YOU learned MA and gained all that knowledge and skill if YOUR Sifu talked that much rubbish too.

That's the thing... knowing how to teach MA is one thing - but doesn't make you qualified to tell me how or if I should work out. Part of the problem, IMHO is that too many people today expect their sifu to know EVERYTHING, which just isn't the case. my sifu could tell me all about CMA, but really couldn't tell me squat about working out, because I know more than him in that area. Other students would come to me for workout advice also.

[Laughing Cow]

7*.

I don't expect a Sifu to be a fitness expert, but he must know what helps with the training and what is detramental to it and accordingly advise his students.

In TJQ I can see why certain exercises would be benefitial only after a certain time in the art, but would be harmful if done too early.

Every style has different requirements and thus what is ok for one style might not be acceptable for style X or Z.

IMO, Bodyweigth exercises are benefitial, weights on the other hand where you try to isolate certain muscle groups is counter to what we try to achieve in my style.

Cheers.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
IMO, Bodyweigth exercises are benefitial, weights on the other hand where you try to isolate certain muscle groups is counter to what we try to achieve in my style.

:rolleyes:

[Laughing Cow]

Fatherdog.

You an Expert on Chen TJQ and what it takes to master that you can show me the rolleye?

You know what our training regime and strength training exercises are?

I doubt it.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Fatherdog.

You an Expert on Chen TJQ and what it takes to master that you can show me the rolleye?

You know what our training regime and strength training exercises are?

I doubt it.

You may well be an expert on Chen TJQ. Statements like



IMO, Bodyweigth exercises are benefitial, weights on the other hand where you try to isolate certain muscle groups is counter to what we try to achieve in my style.


demonstrate, however, that you are ignorant regarding how muscle growth actually works. Hence the rolleyes.

Your muscles don't know the difference between weight training and body weight exercises. All they know is the amount of resistance being placed on them. Saying 'bodyweight exercises are beneficial, weights are not' is an ignorant statement. Period.

[Laughing Cow]

Fatherdog.

Did I say "muscle growth" anywhere??

In my kwoon we can "SEE" and " FEEL" if someone worked out as the "quality" of his movements has changed, and usually he has lost some fluidity and relaxation to his movements.

It also depends on WHICH Bodyweight exercises you do and HOW you do them.

We have our own trainings program & exercises for strength, flexibility and so on.

Maybe try taking some TMA before telling other people what they do or don't know.

I don't tell you how to train for wrestling, so don't tell me how I need to train.

Capiche??


IMO, that is one of the major problems why we don't have good MA anymore, everybody knows best on how to train.

Too many ideas and opinions out there and too little correct quality training in what is needed to master the arts.

IMHO, the time spend in the gym would be better spend training the basics and similar.

People these days are too obsessed with their six-packs and so on.

And yes, I know the argument about techniques not working against a stronger opponent.

Why are they not working, because they were not trained and ingrained properly.

[yenhoi]

LC:

"My Sifu" is the most knowledgible person about martial arts and physical culture that I have found in my area. He regularly will send me to his instructors to find answers to some questions etc. The point of the matter is that I did the research, asked the questions, read the books, looked on the net to find out who, what, when, where, why, how, etc. I did the footwork. I know what to look for. I know when someone is standing in front of me feeding me a line of randomness. Very little of that has anything to do with my boxing coach.

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

Yenhoi.

Than I am sure that you can tell me what it takes to become a Master in a MA style.

What differentiated the masters of old from the modern guys that can't even show a glimmer of what the old guys could do?

What was/is it:
1.) Hours in the kwoon
2.) Sparring
3.) Intent
4.) Training methods
5.) Hours doing forms

6.) NHB fighting
7.) Competitions

8.) your choice

With all the modern training methods, weight training and so on most people can't even come close to the skill of the masters of old and the few good masters now.

According to you and others here we got better nutrition, training methods, more insight into how the body works, better literature, cross-training, etc and should be better than the guys that lacked those.

Where are the current day Yip Man's, Bruce Lee's, Yang Lu Chan's, etc?

Who in the current generation of thousands & millions of MA will equal them and their skill?

So what are we doing wrong??

I think I know the answer do the above question. Took me a long time to find it, but so far it has been confirmed by my teachers and my research.

Seeya.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Fatherdog.

Did I say "muscle growth" anywhere??


I repeat, your body does not know the difference between bodyweight exercises and weight exercise. It's just resistance... and resistance promotes muscle growth. If you do bodyweight exercises, your muscles are growing... it's just that past a certain point, they are inefficient for further growth of strength.

So, if CTJ is best served by getting to a certain level of strength, and then never getting any stronger, than certainly bodyweight exercises are serving your goals. I'm more inclined to think that you're misinformed, however.

[Laughing Cow]

Fatherdog.

You might be right.

Most TMA, AFAIK, don't rely on strength vs strength to win, and thus training those aspects CAN be counter-productive.
Especially if the movement is counter to the underlying principles of the style.

All TMA that I am aware of have strength training at some part of their curriculum, some use weights other use weapons.

In my art, for example, we rely on good body mechanics and other attributes to counter, falling back on strength to win and relying on it is a big NO-NO(but often done and sold as skill).

For a beginner it is more important to trai correct mechanics and develop correct attributes till they are 2nd nature than using/training methods that do NOT promote those.

Once the principles, attributes and mechanics are 2nd-nature than we can start strength training which will enhance the existing skills.

Now in CTJ's case it looks like the preparation work for all 3 styles is the same, and I am sure that his Sifu has VALID reasons for saying what he says.

Like I said we got our own training methods of which you are as yet unaware.

Seeya.

[Serpent]

Regarding BWE vs weight training, you're both right to a degree.

When you use weights it is more possible to isolate muscles/muscle groups. This can increase the strength of those muscles more, but might not improve overall bodily functional strength.

BWE, on the other hand, are unlikely to isolate any muscle group and will benefit the core strength of the body as well as the muscles being trained.

i.e. Pushup vs tricep extension.

The tricep extension will target the triceps with low impact on other muscles groups.

The pushup will target the triceps and hit the chest and hit the abs/core in isometric contraction.

For MA, overall functional strength is more suitable, so BWE exercises might seem more beneficial.

However, as the Dog says, you might reach a certain point in strength and then not improve any more. So what's the answer?

Both!

Do weight training, do lots of bodyweight stuff. Do BWE's with added weights (backpack full of books, wife on your back, etc.) and do free weights to employ more stabilising muscles in your weights routine.

Then add on the cardio and you're starting to get your body in shape to be good at your kung fu! ;)

That'd be my advice.

[Laughing Cow]

Serpent.

Thanks, for the detailed clarification.

IME, TMA training has both but done at different times in each styles training curriculum.

Also, IMO, starting this type of training too soon(depending on style) CAN be counter-productive and thus the student should listen/look to his Instructor for advise/guidance.

There is no universal method that fits everybody.

Just getting rattled when people give advise, but are not aware of what the specific styles requirements are.

[Serpent]

Fair comment. However, as far as I'm concerned, the stronger and fitter you are, the better your kung fu. A sifu should be able to teach softness and "internal" to even the biggest and strongest practitioner.

However, a sifu might not necessarily know the best advice about getting fit and strong. ;)

Listen to your teacher, but know that your teacher may not be perfect.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Serpent
Fair comment. However, as far as I'm concerned, the stronger and fitter you are, the better your kung fu. A sifu should be able to teach softness and "internal" to even the biggest and strongest practitioner.


No disagreement there, we got some pretty muscle-bound guys in my class.

It takes more work and dedication for them to get there, though.



However, a sifu might not necessarily know the best advice about getting fit and strong. ;)


True, he is a MA instructor and not a personal trainer.



Listen to your teacher, but know that your teacher may not be perfect.

Wise words. But he should know better what is needed and required than an outsider of the style.

[Laughing Cow]

Serpent and others.

Just a quick question.

Should a beginner be more worried about his fitness and strength or building martial skill?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Serpent and others.

Just a quick question.

Should a beginner be more worried about his fitness and strength or building martial skill?

That's a loaded question!

He shouldn't ignore either of them. Initially he should concentrate on learing his martial skills. However, at the same time he should learn about getting fit and strong and start employing those aspects into his training regime.

[Youngmantis]

I figured it out, my school is a traditional wu tan kugn fu school, teaches grandmaster lius style and su yu chang and 2 others. I talked to the instructor and he said that the lineage is from china, but than when communists came in gm liu moved to tai wain and formed a wu tan school, than su yu chang and 2 others joined in in make a kung fu school with many styles stuffed in to preserve traditional chinese kung fu.

The kung fu emphasises on using your tendons instead of your muscle, because the tendons is much stronger than the muscle, on top of that it takes hardly any energy to deliver a high impact, also the system teaches to be completely relaxed like your sinking down into your lower part, like your belly button, kinda like praying mantis. the problem with this emphasis is that if I do pushups or anything like that my body will learn to use muscle than tendons, and my tendons will be very weak and it will be hard to relax enough to use the tendons.

Now i'm not totally biased on this either way just a statement

[Laughing Cow]

Youngmantis.

Those requirements sound very much like Tai Ji Quan, which is what I assumed from your previous post.

In Taiji strength training happens at a later stage to other styles.

Cheers.

[scotty1]

In our style strength training starts right at the beginning, along with 'softness' and sensitivity training.

It's emphasised as building 'elastic' strength though.

[rubthebuddha]

i wonder if fa_jing knows anything about this ... ;)

[yenhoi]

Than I am sure that you can tell me what it takes to become a Master in a MA style.

Sure. Time and effort. I dont believe in styles. You cant master them. They dont exist. They are labels and words people use on the internet and marketing. Masters dont exist. Skill is only measurable one way.

What differentiated the masters of old from the modern guys that can't even show a glimmer of what the old guys could do?

I dont know what your talking about. Who are these 'old masters' that have all this magical skill? Have you met any of them? I have met skillful people. None of them surprized me. None of them were out of this world. I doubt I will ever meet anyone that just blows my mind with their mystical inner chi circulation skills. You didnt say chi, Im just using an example.

What was/is it:
1.) Hours in the kwoon
2.) Sparring
3.) Intent
4.) Training methods
5.) Hours doing forms
6.) NHB fighting
7.) Competitions
8.) your choice

Training methods and sparring, and competition. All the rest are just repeats. Hour in the kwoon mean nothing if you are doing nothing.

With all the modern training methods, weight training and so on most people can't even come close to the skill of the masters of old and the few good masters now.

Who the hell are you talking about. Who? Who? Who? How do you compare "modern martial artists" with dead guys? How do you know these dead people you mention were so **** skillful? Where do you come up with this stuff.

According to you and others here we got better nutrition, training methods, more insight into how the body works, better literature, cross-training, etc and should be better than the guys that lacked those.

Who (besides some misguided souls) says that 'our' guys today arent better? Again, how to you compare and measure this? You have some chi ruler somewheres?

Where are the current day Yip Man's, Bruce Lee's, Yang Lu Chan's, etc?

Those guys are all dead. I doubt you met or touched hands with any of them. I would count several of the Gracies, a couple tai chi dudes, Master Chai, SevenStar, Ralek, and Myself. How do you decide who is the next Yip Man?

Who in the current generation of thousands & millions of MA will equal them and their skill?

Martial Artist is a catchall randomass term. What does it mean? Most people who call themselves a Martial Artist are full of **** and do it to impress their friends and parents and co-workers. Im not a Martial Artist. I care little for the 'art and culture and heritage' or any of the randoms that are out there. The only thing that matters to me is being healthy, making progress, and being able to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Again, how do you judge and compare these people? Why do you throw this 'martial artist' label around like it has any weight with the people who really do practice day in and day out to take on other larger, smaller, faster, slower, stronger, weaker persons who want to hurt them?

So what are we doing wrong??

Personally, I spend to much time on the net at work, I drink dark beer, and I have a taste for good tequilla. Other then that, Im on track to achieve my goals, whats your problem bud?

I think I know the answer do the above question. Took me a long time to find it, but so far it has been confirmed by my teachers and my research.

Apparantly you and your hero worship have all the answers. Why dont you share? Some randomness about mountains and paths and this and that to be sure. I dont buy it, and either do the other people that have a clue.

In my art, for example, we rely on good body mechanics and other attributes to counter, falling back on strength to win and relying on it is a big NO-NO

How is this different from any other "art?"

Most TMA, AFAIK, don't rely on strength vs strength to win, and thus training those aspects CAN be counter-productive.

How on earth can being a stonger person be counter-productive? What the hell is TMA? What makes TMA do different and special from "arts" you dont consider Traditional?

Like I said we got our own training methods of which you are as yet unaware.

If your seriously trying to sell us on this secrecy bs, then I think your hanging out on the wrong website. What training methods? Why are they so good? What makes you so special that you get the goods and the rest of us dont? Something in the water?


There is no universal method that fits everybody.

Yes there is. We all have brains. Everyone of us can figure out what is best for us.

In Taiji strength training happens at a later stage to other styles.

Not true.

Style bs is just that. Stlye bs. Hiding behind labels and other randomness that is just silly talk.

:eek:

[IronFist]

::IronFist pokes his head in to see what's going on::

yenhoi, I think TMA = traditional martial arts?

To anyone who doesn't believe in weight training and getting strong, what are you going to do when a 300lbs dude is sitting on your chest? Are you going to blast him off with a chi blast?

Strength also helps in everyday life. I had to move a 150lb safe the other day. I'm not saying 150lbs is a ton of weight or anything, but to pick it up I had to slide my hands under it between the bottom of it and the carpet, so I had to get very low in order to pick it up. If I didn't deadlift and know how to pressurize my abs from weight lifting, I probably wouldn't have been able to pick it up safely, or maybe not at all.

Yeah, those safes are heavy. This thing is like a 14"x16" square of crushproof, fireproof, axeproof, blowtorch-proof, heavy metal. So heavy for such a small thing.

Anyway, my point was that chi is not going to move heavy things for you.

IronFist

[Laughing Cow]

Yenhoi.

I see you got all the answers and the maturity to go with it.

Next time might I suggest do a bit of research b4 you try to blast people and their style, because at the moment you simply look like an uninformed arrogant wannabee.

Keep going, maybe one day and maybe after a few yrs of more training experience a few things will become clearer.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

Ironfist.

Nobody is against getting strong, some of the old TJQ Masters where quiet strong and buff.

Problem with TJQ is that if you rely on your physical strength too much, you violate the principles of the style and are no longer doing TJQ.

I.e.:
You would be fighting but not using TJQ.

Anybody can research our strength training it is not secret(been discussed a few times on KFO), problem is not many people advance far enouh to learn it.

This is hard to see and understand from an external point of view, most westerners believe in stronger = better and superior.

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
IMO, Bodyweigth exercises are benefitial, weights on the other hand where you try to isolate certain muscle groups is counter to what we try to achieve in my style.



That's where many people have misconceptions about weight training. Proper strength training will consist of big, compound exercises like squats and bench pressing, not isolation movements, like curls

[Youngmantis]

no that last statement i made does not applie to tai chi quan, it applies to all kung fu that wasn't changed since communism, the instructor says its true kung fu, even the mongolians were small and thin but they had mass amounts of power

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar


That's where many people have misconceptions about weight training. Proper strength training will consist of big, compound exercises like squats and bench pressing, not isolation movements, like curls

Not disagreeing with you.

One question:

How would I benefit from exercises that train/promote a different method of power generation to what my style uses?

Bench presses and similar are nice, done enough when I was younger. ;)

[yenhoi]

maturity is: a european asking questions filled with myths and misconceptions, then ducking behind the word "maturity" when asked specific questions of himself.

ok. I lose.



:rolleyes:

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi
maturity is: a european asking questions filled with myths and misconceptions, then ducking behind the word "maturity" when asked specific questions of himself.

ok. I lose.



:rolleyes:

But I guess your maybe 5yrs by now in 2 MA have given you all the answers.

Maybe one day you will get to know what it takes to master a MA and it goes beyond time and hard work, nothing magical nothing special something so simple you will grunt when you realise what it is and you didn't see it for years.

And will kick your butt for having wasted years not doing it.

You can spend plenty of time and effort in mastering something and never get there or even become mediocre.

Famous saying: " There are no secrets!".

Cheers.

P.S.: Finished your schooling yet and started to work?

[joedoe]

I have had an interesting experience wrt. this question.

Years ago when I had just started training in my style, I asked my sifu if working out was good for my kung fu. He said no.

At the start of this year when I joined a gym, I asked the same question and his reply was that weights etc. is OK as long as I keep practicing my kung fu and be careful not to damage certain tendons in the chest/shoulder area.

There are two explanations I can see for the two different answers.

The first is that my kung fu may have advanced to the point where doing weights etc. is not going to affect my kung fu as long as I keep practising (I guess the kung fu training will help me maintain my flexibility etc). Maybe my technique is good enough that I know better than to rely on brute strength so doing weights will not pose a problem.

The other reason may be that he has come a realisation about how to make weights and kung fu work together effectively.

Or it may be a combination of the two :)

Seriously though, at least as far as Shaolin training goes, weight and body weight training was definitely a part of the curriculum.

[Laughing Cow]

Joedoe.

Here is the explanation that I was given at my current kwoon and in my last TJQ style, very similar to your experience.

When I joined at the same time another guy joined who worked out regularly.

Sifu told him to stop weights for now, till he has mastered the bodymechanics and basic requirements(Fang song, moving with intent, etc), after this he could start to re-introduce weights and incorporate his physical strength into his MA.

I think it is the old case of chasing 2 rabbits at the same time and catching neither.

Yes, physical strength plays a role in TJQ too, but it is second to good principles and body-mechanics.

I agree with Joedoe in that I think you reach a level where other activities stop interfering with your MA, byt this time your MA has become a part of you.

Cheers.

[Serpent]

Whoever said that weight training will make your tendons weak is full of it.

A tendon joins a muscle to a bone. When a muscle works to move a bone to cause an action, it pulls on that bone with the tendon. There is a sensory organ in the tendon that stops the muscle from working if the muscle is trying to pull more than the tendon can handle. It's called the Golgi Tendon Organ.

Therefore, if your muscle gets really strong, the tendon has to be strong enough too, otherwise it will prevent the muscle from working.

Of course tendon strength is important in kung fu - it's essential. But muscle strength absolutely does not preclude it.

[Youngmantis]

true but its much easier to use your tendons than your muscle, if you don't have tense muscles from doing strenuous activities right?

[Serpent]

Wrong.

Why would strenuous activity make your muscles tense? I think this is the root of the misunderstanding. Resistance training won't make your muscles tense if you stretch before and after a workout. A good stretch after resistance training is essential. Then make sure that you also do soft exercises and plyometric exercises to maintain your speed and fluidity.

No matter how strong a muscle is, if you relax it then it is relaxed. Resistance training won't make you tense. Not knowing how to relax will make you tense.

[Laughing Cow]

One problem I think is that many people are naturally tense and struggle to make being relaxed a habit.

Add to that many people misinterpret relaxed with being limp.

I have seen it often in TJQ Sifu tells a newcomer student to be "relaxed" and he goes limp and looses structure and so on.

Heck Sifu still tells me that my Chest is still too tense, shoulders are improving though.
:D

[Serpent]

Ah yes, those shoulders.

Bane of my practice!

:mad:

:)

[sakko]

Humbleness makes for some great training too, but what do I know?

[PLCrane]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IronFist

To anyone who doesn't believe in weight training and getting strong, what are you going to do when a 300lbs dude is sitting on your chest?

Use secret technique - stick thumb up ass and break tailbone. He not sit again for long time.

Seriously, the main problem I see with the big strong guys learning kung fu is that it's sometimes harder for them to learn proper technique and alignment because it's so easy for them to succeed without it. Once they get it, watch out!


PLC

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Youngmantis
true but its much easier to use your tendons than your muscle, if you don't have tense muscles from doing strenuous activities right?

Serpent is correct here. I find my muscles are usually tense from a day of office work, but loosen up after a good workout at the gym. Often makes me wonder if I should give up my career path and go into something more physical ;)

The only danger in having strong muscles is that you may become tempted to use your muscular strength to succeed rather than using technique. And if you concentrate on how your body works while you work out, then you can learn how to use your muscles and tendons more effectively.

[Youngmantis]

yes, not tempted but doing tense activities with your muscles will naturally make your muscles tense, and may be harder to forget about the muscle and just use the deep muscle the muscle that only is used to execute movement. I have learned though that pushups would not help strength in traditional kung fu, although i will still be doing them so my arms don't get scronny :)

[scotty1]

"yes, not tempted but doing tense activities with your muscles will naturally make your muscles tense,"

Not if you stretch them properly. Qigong is excellent for that, I find.

"and may be harder to forget about the muscle and just use the deep muscle the muscle that only is used to execute movement."

Not sure what you mean here. The muscle is the muscle, no 'deep' muscle. The whole body should be used to execute movement, keeping your muscles relaxed.

"I have learned though that pushups would not help strength in traditional kung fu,"

I don't agree. They will strenthen your body, your whole body to an extent, and its not having strength thats a problem in Kungfu, its applying it incorrectly.

"although i will still be doing them so my arms don't get scronny "

Heh, me too dude. :)

Anyway, I think you're labouring under some serious false impressions here.

[Serpent]

Youngmantis

I really don't know why you're here - you obviously have your mind made up and you're simply not listening to what people here are saying.


Originally posted by Youngmantis
yes, not tempted but doing tense activities with your muscles will naturally make your muscles tense

Absolutely the complete polar opposite of what is correct. If you tense a muscle you have to then relax it. It's not "tense" activity that makes a muscle tense - it's refusal to relax. What the hell are tense activities anyway? Even heavy resistance training should not be "tense".



may be harder to forget about the muscle and just use the deep muscle the muscle that only is used to execute movement.

What does this mean? When you punch a straight punch you need to be fluid and loose to release power, for example, but you absolutely HAVE to use your triceps to extend your arm. Is the triceps a "deep muscle"? There is no one muscle used to execute a movement. Muscles always work in groups to cause an action. If you are moving, you are using muscles - there is absolutely no avoiding this.



I have learned though that pushups would not help strength in traditional kung fu, although i will still be doing them so my arms don't get scronny

And this one's a blinder! Who taught you this? Pushups are one of the best exercises that exist - they work the triceps out extensively, which are muscles essential for punching (see above), they work the chest and shoulders and they use all the core stabilising muscles.

Dude, stop thinking you already know and listen to what's being said here. And seriously, reconsider the people that are teaching you this stuff.

Oh yeah, also, that last word that you're looking for is "scrawny".

[IronFist]

:D :D :D

Serpent - Didn't you know that real, traditional kung fu people don't use muscle to move their body?

Duh.

They use tendons/qi/chi/ch'i/yi/intent/ligaments/intention, but they most definately don't use muscle :D :cool:

Despite the fact that contracting a muscle is the only way to move a bodypart*, real, traditional kung fu people do not use muscle.

:D :D :D

IronFist

*unless you're letting it fall with gravity

[Serpent]

Heh. Can you tell this is a particular pet hate of mine? :D

I fully believe in developing tendon strength and chi. I teach empty power, etc. But it p!sses me off when people are told not to build muscle to improve their kung fu.

That's like telling a pilot that he'll fly better if never takes any flying pessons, but just keeps on sitting in a plane playing with the controls. ;)

[Colin Kennedy]

Conversation involving my non-interest in higher education:

Me : Money can't buy happiness.

Mom : Neither can no money.



Conversation on this board:


Some : Strength doesn't win fights.

Others : Neither does no strength.



Edit : Mother knows best.

[IronFist]

kung fu people seem to think they're using something other than muscle to propel themselves.

IronFist

[Shaolin-Do]

Propulsive flatulence?
:rolleyes:

Without using your muscles you cannot move... If someone believes different, expirement. Try to move the arm with no muscle. Put your hand on the arm. What happens?
Nuff said.

[Cheese Dog]

Flatulence impels OTHERS to move, not yourself!:D: