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CHS
08-13-2003, 10:28 PM
Very interesting article... read on if you're interested.

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Fighting or Playing?
The Martial Art vs Sport Debate
By Neil Ohlenkamp

Many people think of Judo and Taekwondo as sports because they are included along with other major sports in Olympic competition. Boxing, wrestling, Judo, taekwondo, and kickboxing are examples of martial sports. I often hear martial artists who use the term "sport" as if referring to a game with no usefulness. The implication is that a sport is only for "play" and cannot be effective for self defense, fighting or combat. Many martial artists think that the distinction between sport and martial art is that martial artists train for real life.

Actually the distinction is more complex and rather surprising. In discussing it I will make generalizations that may not apply to the way you train in your sport or martial art. However I hope to give you a new way to look at the potential value of sports principles for martial arts training.

One of the primary differences between martial sports and arts is in the value of the training methods. Because of their alleged danger or lethality, many martial arts engage in artificial and even counter-productive training which involves "pulling" techniques, modifying the point of contact, and adding in a precautionary element of movement that, rather than training the body, can inhibit its natural action and the ultimate conclusion of a technique. Slow, careful, non-contact training is not an effective approach to prepare for actual fighting situations that require the opposite reactions. Typifying this approach is a student who falsely equates the ability to break boards with the ability to punch a person in the face. As another example, I have never seen realistic training in throat strikes or eye gouges in any martial arts class, even though these are often recommended for self defense. The teaching generally done for these techniques helps students to understand what to do, but does not provide effective results for fast, reflexive and accurate application of these techniques against an unwilling opponent in real life combat.

Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training. Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions. Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations. Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential.

Sometimes the "combat" arts substitute intellectual perception, a highly subjective and deceptive frame of reference, for genuine training of the body and mind. Some martial arts don't train effectively for self defense and combat because they can't train for combat without severe risk to training partners. Many martial arts have instead adopted highly stylized, ritualistic, and even dysfunctional training methods. Ironically, martial sports may provide the superior training in effective combat techniques because martial arts can't be practiced in a real life way without injury.

In martial sports, one purpose of competition is to take the place of the older shinken shobu (life-and-death fights) in developing technique, knowledge, and character. You never see yourself so clearly as when you face your own death. Competition can provide a safe, controlled glimpse at this kind of defeat. Fighting spirit can be developed only through fighting. Surely it is not the same as the battlefield, but it serves a similar purpose, and it is closer to a combat situation than any other form of training.

Of course this can go wrong. Winning and losing can become too important and start to pervert the training process. The ultimate goal should not be the winning of medals. Using sport competition as a metaphor for real fighting can be quite different from playing it as a game. Matches, along with free practice and sparring, are simply different methods for training the mind and body to deal with the adversity of fighting situations.

Just as non-competitive martial arts training may not provide the benefits of competition, training for sport competition may not provide the full scope of self defense training. Martial sports often include non-competitive components. For example, competition is only a part of the Judo curriculum, and Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, was very concerned about preserving those self defense techniques that could not be used with full force in competition. However, Judo remains a remarkably effective self defense training, even after the development of other modern "combat" methods, and even when Judo is practiced today largely as a sport. Jigoro Kano applied modern sport training methodology to the traditional koryu jujutsu and found that it produced a better combat art, which has proven itself again and again over the last 120 years.

Although martial arts and sports both have loftier goals, it is still a fact that many people train in martial arts primarily for self-defense. For those who have never used sport training methods, or those who have never explored traditional bujutsu training, it is easy to discount the effectiveness of the other. As martial artists we should continually seek opportunities to challenge ourselves by examining the weaknesses in our training and keeping our minds open to other methods. I encourage you to discover for yourself how "playing" with a partner in sparring or free practice, or competing against an opponent in contest, can be an effective method of training for self defense.

old jong
08-14-2003, 07:29 AM
I would post a dead horse pic here!...Who has a good dead horse pic to post?...;)

PaulH
08-14-2003, 09:47 AM
If self defense is what one wants, this makes more sense.

http://www.zeta.org.au/~ajnerl/surviv1.html

Regards,

old jong
08-15-2003, 08:51 AM
Yes!...

PaulH
08-15-2003, 09:09 AM
Old Jong,

Your vote makes my day! For anyone who is interested, this old article will supplement the previous one perfectly. Prevention is the best cure in self defense.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/williams_personalprotection.html

Regards,

old jong
08-15-2003, 09:19 AM
Again ...Yes!...
And,I take a few words from this article : "You must develop devastating and powerful blows" What is a good defensive system without serious heavy weapons to respond?...
My personnal way of seeing this is....You attack me?...I'm your ennemy now !...Not your victim!...

reneritchie
08-15-2003, 10:40 AM
Yes, dead beaten horse. Kano started whipping it back at the turn of the 20th, and the Gracies have whipped it since.

It's true, sport often allows far more training against competant, resistant opponents than actual fighting. If you can avoid getting bound by the sport, you'll probably end up pretty good.

anerlich
08-15-2003, 05:05 PM
I wrote one of the quoted articles (which was derivative of other sources quoted therein). Extremely flattered that it rated a mention.

However, I agree with the sentiments of this article strongly. It bears strong resemblance to John Danaher's explanations of Jiu Jitsu training methodologies in "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" and "Mastering Ju Jitsu", books he co-wrote with various members of the Gracie family.

old jong
08-15-2003, 06:11 PM
Kano created his own brand of JJ when he was maybe 18. Later he called it Judo. Do was a break from jutsu .He wanted to create a sort of sport and physical/phychological education discipline using what he considered the safest but effective techniques of jujutsu. His art was mainly throws but he added ground work after his school was beaten by more ground developped JJ specialist (They were already resistant in those days. So much that it was really dangerous to practice JJ.) His new art became very popular because it was safe to practice.(And recieved imperial honnors!..)
Kano never spoke about the "resistant opponent" because an "unresistant opponent" was simply not existing at that times. This is simply BJJ marketing attributed to Kano.
Take the time to read some old Judo books written before the Gracies era and try to find this concept. (I know ...Some judo guys now are eating this thing!..)
This is a Brazillian old dead horse.(Looks like everybody is taking turn beating it!)

reneritchie
08-15-2003, 07:13 PM
Old Jong, I began training Judo in about 1978 under the Canadian olympic coach (though I quit in highschool for Karate, then did a little more in college, now only once and a great while for fun) and read most of what there is to read on the subject. Everyone has their own version of the history, but Kano seemed pretty visionary to me, and I'll credit him first crack at the equestrian skull ;)

(Or maybe its the Mongol who got them to take the spikes off before the pit fights 5000 years ago??)

old jong
08-15-2003, 07:29 PM
And I practiced Judo in 74! (With the founder of Judo in Quebec...)It was then known as "The art of non resistance" But of course maybe .000001% of Judo players were able to use this idea in sport fighting.I had no interest in competitions so I looked elswere for other things.
What can I say about history. It is changing everyday on the internet!...

:rolleyes:

BTW, I am still practicing (on a semi regular base) with a 4th dan in Judo friend of mine. We resist like hell!...;)

old jong
08-15-2003, 07:50 PM
You wrote a very good article there! IMO, even with martial arts training (any of them) very few people are truely ready for an encounter with real agression and crime.
I gave it to my students because I don't want them to think that " Hey!...I know Kung Fu!...;) " You know what I mean...

captain
08-16-2003, 08:00 AM
great thread here.as i find out more about the different styles
of ma's available,i find that wck only has a limited window.for
instance,if im grabbed or pushed,im more likely to lock or twist
my would be attacker [and force him through a painful submission
to quit] than i am to simply rain/unleash wck hell all over him in
the shape of many centre line vertical punches.he may simply be
an idiot bully who can be "reminded" with some sort of lock,that
it would be better to go elsewhere for richer pickings.or,what if
its a HUGE man [i am not],i am may begin a fist fight with a
person and increase the chance of me being battered like a carp.

in my opinion,from experience,there are different phases to an
attack or fight.perhaps phase 1 is to be pushed or grabbed.in
that case,some judo/bjj/jjj maybe the best course of action.or
even aikido.i know that particular art comes under some serious
net bashing by the big boys,but in an initial grab push,id rather
twist or lock someone up,than start a big world war five fight,
cause ive slugged someone.

judo,or its sexier cousin bjj,gets you used to being grabbed,
flipped,and twisted about.now you do that enough,and when
you do face real trouble,it'll be less of a shock for you.strike based
arts,unless you box in the back of parking lots,signal that you will
go all out with the guy.not everyone wants that.i love wck,
that bong sao is amazing,i saw an old Ali fight last week on t.v.
i only wished his opponent had the bong,i could actually see
where it would have stopped an Ali jab.my first wck class was
pure class,but still the jabs and punches coming in at me where
at best,two thirds strength.and unless you get macho after hours
kwoon sessions,most people dont want to pay to get bopped on
the nose during a ma class.

i see wck as an add on style.your base art should be something
solid like judo/bjj or older jiu jitsu.then you place a strike based
style like wck onto that.i know many people argue that wck can
be used on the ground and such,but few people actually train
that way.or if they do,its against another wck go on top of them.
fewer invite a judo/bjj guy into their gym and try it out that way.
another key arguement i hear wck folks say is,"well,ill never be
grounded because my stance is good".that simply isnt reliable
enough,especially if you fight [in the street] against a guy who
prcatices a style where 3 quarters of what he does is fashioned
to ground you.he WILL eventually.

from my research, i see the best ever style like this.wing chun
with either judo or bjj.and perhaps a little of something else
just to get round things out a tad.and as for judo being an
impotent sport with no real practicle use,go randori or spar some,
its tough.i love wing chun,and if the punches rain in on me,out
will come the bong,but id be too scared initially to start punching,
id rather lock them up and attempt to end it that way.

now lets gripe about the "classic" wing chun book menu:a scant
bit about Yip Man,88 pics of slt,and adios.argh!

Russ.

yuanfen
08-16-2003, 08:10 AM
now lets gripe about the "classic" wing chun book menu:a scant
bit about Yip Man,88 pics of slt,and adios.argh!

Russ.
---------------------------------------------------------
no gripe.Adios Russ. Argh!

yuanfen
08-16-2003, 08:17 AM
old jong sez:
I gave it to my students because I don't want them to think that " Hey!...I know Kung Fu!... " You know what I mean...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good.
Not all TCMA are coequal. WC is asuperb abd still understimated art...
BUT still practicing martal arts and a serious encounter are two
quite different things.

old jong
08-16-2003, 08:45 AM
It is natural to say that. We are human beings.We all have our own reactions in front of danger or violence. Whatever the "resisting sporting opponent" claims ,the reality of a real fight for survival is very different from a referee'd match. Many would loose their edge in that case (TMA's included)
I don't think a pure technical approach on this subject is the solution.

old jong
08-16-2003, 09:03 AM
...I know some will be fast to respond :"But my way is closer to the reality!..."

Just think about this: The skins and punks who could attack you on the street for no reasons ,don't even train!....They just cultivate "the animal inside" as they say!...If you want to be as bad,you need to be able to grab a living bird and pull his eyes out with your fingers without any emotions.It is some kind of test for them.
The reality is ; you could be forced to fight somebody like this.

John Weiland
08-16-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by old jong
[BIf you want to be as bad,you need to be able to grab a living bird and pull his eyes out with your fingers without any emotions.It is some kind of test for them.
[/B]
ALLOUETTE Traditional

Allouette, gentile allouette,
Allouette, je te plumerais
(Lark, gentle lark,
Lark, I will pluck you.)
Je te plumerais la tete,
(I will pluck your head,)
Je te plumerais la tete,
Et la tete, et la tete,
(And your head, and your head),
Allouette, allouette, oh-oh,
Allouette, gentile allouette,
Allouette, je te plumerais.
Je te plumerais le nez (your nose), etc.
Les yeux (your eyes), la bouche (mouth),
Les bras (arms), les mains (hands),
Les jambes (legs), les pieds (feet)

old jong
08-17-2003, 03:50 AM
Sadistic song!...;)

yuanfen
08-17-2003, 07:06 AM
But it's in French old jong- a very civil tongue I am told!!!.

John Weiland
08-17-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by old jong
Sadistic song!...;)
Well, you brought it to mind. :p I was appalled myself when I learned it as a youngster. :D How could the French be so cruel?

However, after years as the family's cook, I have cultivated the butcher's mentality. My sifu, Ben Der, a professional chef, cuts up about 60 chickens a day with what he describes as a "dull knife," the better to strengthen his wrists for Wing Chun. Bring a couple of chickens with you when you meet him, and he will demonstrate how to debone them in about five steps. :D

I would also note that my sigung, Ken Chung, will not teach the knife set to anyone he deems does not have the mentality to use a knife on another person.

Sorry to have offended anyone's delicate sensibilities. :p

Regards,

old jong
08-17-2003, 06:38 PM
Maybe the composer of this song,one day, was left with a small bird "souvenir" on his hat or shoulder?...Or simply hated birds?...

I briefly worked as a butcher a long time ago but I used the knife on already dead animals only!!!:p I was good at making "Roti coupe française" ;)