MA against you in court:Fact or fiction?

[ShaolinWood]

I've heard now fro a couple of people that when you get in a fight and hurt someone and afterwards get sued, that the court will actually count you practicing martial arts against you...

Now I think this is total crap, altough it is bizzare that so many people think this, (could just be urban legend) but apparently the court says that your hands(the practitioner's) actually is regarded as weapons.

But I just feel that you have the same right as anyone else to defend yourself, it all depends on the situation though, If you caused the fight then It's your fault but otherwise I feel that self defence is way too unregarded(in South Africa especially).

The criminal shouldn't have more rights than the victem! The criminal shouldn't have any rights! He he

No seriously, I't probably all depends, but if anyone in law or police that has a bit of insight on the subject...

Thanx

[Fred Sanford]

if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.

[TigerJaw]

I've read a couple of articles on this subject. Unfortunately I don't have any links to hand but from weight of oppinion it seems that the law generally stands like this in most countries.

If you are assaulted and defend yourself, the onous to proove self defence lies with you. In effect, if there is evidence that you've hurt somebody, you are guilty untill prooven innocent.

For a defence of self-defence to stand, you must proove that you took the minimum necersary action that you THOUGHT was necersary to protect yourself or somebody else. It is the intent that is important and not the outcome. The law allows you make a pre-emptive strike if you believe yourself to be in danger but it does not allow you to retaliate if you believe that you are no longer in danger. For example, if somebody punches you in the face and breaks your nose and walks off, if you catch them up and just push them a bit or get a bit shouty, you've committed an assault. So have they, obviously.

The court will take into account your fighting ability when assessing what you likely thought was necersary. Take an example of a drunken idiot coming at you swinging his arms with wild haymaker punches. If you have no skill in MA, you might panic and punch the guy in the face, the drunken attacker might be killed by this punch but the court would still accept your plea of self defence because you did the only thing you could think of at the time. However, if you're a 6th degree black belt in Aikido, the court will consider that you had adequat knowledge and skill not to have to punch your opponant, you could have controlled him and may reject your self-defence plea.

Irrespective of your training you have a responsibilty to protect yourself using the minimum force required. If you know techniques to control somebody that would require less force than you used or you use your MA ability to inflict more damage than necersary, the court may not accept your plea of self-defence.

[Laughing Cow]

AFAIK, yes, they do consider your MA/sports/military/etc background.

Besides physical ability MA should also give you a mental advantage.

Add to that the concept of superior weapon, knife is superior to a punch, gun is superior to a knife, trained fighter(Boxer, MA, etc) is superior to an untrained fighter, etc.

Most laws state you are allowed to exert just enough force to stop/remove the threat, no more anything more is considered an assault by you on the other person.

I.e. turning away from your opponent than turning back and slugging him = assault.

The line is fine and will depend on your location and the jugdes/jurors interpretation of the situation and law.

Most fight situations in court = your word vs his, unless you got 3rd party giving evidence that doesn't belong to either party and is 100% impartial = Surveilance Video, Security Guard, etc.

Cheers.

[Judge Pen]

Some good posts here.

As an attorney and a martial artist I would advise that if you are attacked and you are forced to use your ability to defend yourself (1) keep it reasonable under the circumstances and (2) as soon as the altercation is over call the police and report the attack. Bring assault charges against him. Put him on the defensive. It would be easy to leave after defending yourself only to be charged with assault yourself later. At that time this guy will have these wonderful pictures of his injuries and all his medical bills to support the fact that you went all kung fu crazy on him. At least reporting the guy for assault takes the focus off you.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Some good posts here.

As an attorney and a martial artist I would advise that if you are attacked and you are forced to use your ability to defend yourself (1) keep it reasonable under the circumstances and (2) as soon as the altercation is over call the police and report the attack. Bring assault charges against him. Put him on the defensive. It would be easy to leave after defending yourself only to be charged with assault yourself later. At that time this guy will have these wonderful pictures of his injuries and all his medical bills to support the fact that you went all kung fu crazy on him. At least reporting the guy for assault takes the focus off you.

Or, you could just kill all the witnesses and run like hell.

[Judge Pen]

Water Dragon if you ever need a lawyer let me know. I know of some pre-paid legal services that will represent you for just pennies a day!

[Water Dragon]

lol

[TonyM.]

Subjugate your ego and don't test for belts/sashes. If you've registered your school with the states attorney generals' office your a target with almost no legal recourse.

[Liokault]

Its like the thing with Mike Tyson the other day.

Court was going to let him off as it looked like he was defending him self against 2 guys who were giving him a hard time......so hitting them was ok........until at a pont where they no longer were a threat he goes back, just to punish them.

You guys in America probably got more of this on the news than us over here.

[Jook Lum]

Hello everyone!You have all made very good points the only thing i would add is-After any altercation wheither talking to the police or in court you should never act like you were not afraid or that it was really no big deal.You should always say you were afraid and that you feared for your safety and that you felt that your life was in danger.

[Laughing Cow]

One thing I would like to add.

Bar fights and similar in most places will NOT be seen as "Self Defense".

Neither are situations that obviously were avoidable and were brought on by your own actions.

Many people talk about "Self Defense" when in reality what they are talking about are pub fights and similar altercations.

Seen it often in the Kwoon, guy comes in sez he wants to learn SD.
Sifu asks him to be more specific.

Guy goes on about last saturday at the Disco, yadda, yadda.
Sifu turns round and sez you want to learn to fight like bully not self defense see the door, close it from other side.

Just some thoughts.

[Ford Prefect]

I watched a documentary that was kind of like MTV's Tough Enough where they followed around a bunch of wannabe pro-wrestlers. One was a brazilian jiu-jitsu guy. Half way through, he gets into a street fight and beats a guy up. DA sent to him jail. They aired part of the DA's closing statement in the case talking about how his training in the "brutal art of brazilian street fighting" was a deadly weapon that was used against his poor victim.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Jook Lum
Hello everyone!You have all made very good points the only thing i would add is-After any altercation wheither talking to the police or in court you should never act like you were not afraid or that it was really no big deal.You should always say you were afraid and that you feared for your safety and that you felt that your life was in danger.

Exactly. That's why you should report them for assualt and tell the police that you felt like you were about to be attacked and you feared the guy could hurt you unless you did just enough to stop him. How much is enough depends on the circumstances.

Regarding location, a pub or bar etc makes a "self-defense" argument somewhat suspicios, but it doesn't rule it entirely out. If it happens, then keep your bar tab to prove how much you did (or did not) have to drink and line up as many witnesses that can say how the altercation started and that you did not provoke it least your "deadly kung fu skills" become the subject of a DA's closing argument.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

Seen it often in the Kwoon, guy comes in sez he wants to learn SD.
Sifu asks him to be more specific.

See some people like SD so much they are asking for it by name. :D

[MasterKiller]

SD= self-defense.

[themeecer]

Yes it was a joke.

[SaMantis]

Bar fights and similar in most places will NOT be seen as "Self Defense".

This is true - in a case here in February a grad student was arrested and charged with manslaughter after a bar fight ended in one person's death. It took several months of investigation + the trial to get all the facts in. The student was cleared, but his life was completely on hold in the meantime.

Basic facts of the case were:

1. The student and his friend got into a verbal altercation with another person in the bar.

2. He & his friend left rather than provoke a fight.

3. The man in the bar followed them out, calling them names, approaching "in a threatening manner."

4. The student punched him in the face, but according to his friend, he didn't hit him very hard as he had no training in boxing or MA.

5. Unfortunately as the punch was delivered, the guy slipped on the icy sidewalk, fell and cracked his head open.

Leaving the bar to avoid the fight was an important fact in the case, but he did punch the guy. He had to prove self-defense. If he had been a martial artist, no matter what the other facts were, who knows what the verdict would have been. There are a lot of "ifs" here but the end result is that the whole ordeal just sucked for everyone.