HFY info on wingchunkuen.com [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

KPM

08-15-2003, 01:00 PM

Rene is very capable of speaking for himself, but I just wanted to chime in and point out that if David is confused, it is only because he is not reading very carefully. Rene clearly states that Gee Sifu provided info to "us", meaning the authors of Complete Wing Chun.....Robert Chu included. The acknowledgement quoted in no way contradicts that. Robert Chu is part of the collective "us" that Rene was referring to.

Keith

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
Rene Ritchie says ...
... please understand that what I have on my site is what Gee sifu gave us for Complete Wing Chun.

But, the acknowledgement from his website reads ....
Notes: Special thanks to John Murphy and Robert Chu.

So is this another case of not giving credit where credit is due or did you mis-speak when you said " please understand that what I have on my site is what Gee sifu gave us for Complete Wing Chun." ?

Maybe you meant .... please understand that what I have on my site is what John Murphy gave us for Complete Wing Chun or something similiar.

:confused:

-David

canglong

08-15-2003, 02:41 PM

Keith,
In case you missed it or are confused I see that David is refering to the fact that Rene thanks his co-authors but not his source on this particular page.

reneritchie

08-15-2003, 04:04 PM

Chango

08-15-2003, 05:38 PM

Rene,
I could be wrong but It s seems that you to want to discredit the information provided by the VTM. You seem to fail to acknowlege the fact that the VTM's information has been checked and double checked with it's sources. If there was an issue with accuracy the representatives of the particular lineage would make corrections. The VTM souces are varified family members or representatives of each lineage. It seems you don't have the same standards when it comes to providing information. Maybe you would care to explain?

BTW the last I checked Robert Chu was not a member of a HFY! ROFLOL! So your sources had been a HFY member (John M.) and Robert Chu? when did Robert Chu become a expert or an authority on HFY? Does that mean only half of what you provide is true or reliable? I didn't see anywhere in your book where it said "Robert Chu's understanding of HFY"? maybe you can clear this up?

You have been notified by Myself (a Hung fa Yi member) that your information on your site is incomplete and you will need to update it. You have been told that you will need to contact Sifu Meng for the update to your information. But you seem to have a problem doing the foot traffic. So instead of doing the work you seem to play this game where You seem to think that you can play between Sigung Gee and the VTM. LOL!

You fail to realize that everyone can see what you are up to. I think this speaks alot about your charecter. But it's your bed Rene etc.... sleep tight my friend. LOL!

Sifu Chango (SGS) :cool:

reneritchie

08-15-2003, 06:58 PM

Chango,

When Jim or Andreas or David or any of a dozen other folks have changes they'd like to make, they shoot me an email and I do my best to accomodate things. If any of Gee sifu's direct students have similar requests, they know how to reach me. I'm not sure I can make it any more clear than that. We each have to do our part. (Heck, Gee sifu doesn't seem to have a problem letting me know stuff when he wants to, can't imagine it would be a problem for anyone else).

Second, Gee sifu was fairly direct in saying roughly 66% of the information on HFY coming from the VTM did not come from him. I believe William also posted on this forum that the VTM and HFY are distict. That didn't imply a value judgement to me, just a proper and clear distinction (which would be a great example to follow). As my webpage tries to show how the branches themselves record their history, Gee sifu's direct material, then, is obviously the material I will base it on.

To help you understand this, of you look at the Yip Man or Sum Nung family trees, or the Pao Fa Lien one, they are the lineages published by the branches in question, not my (or your, or anyone else's) modern research or opinion, or positioning.

And the VTM, of course, has their own website where they can and do publish anything they want, so there are alternate places people can go for differing and varied opinions, which is what everyone should want and help promote (no one's trying to ram something down anybody's throat, right?)

If this is still unclear, please let me know and I'll try again to explain.

(Lastly, it's somehow ironic that shills and trolls want to speak of character when I have done more than most to not only promote but try to improve HFY's image in the WCK world, even when internal elements, in their hubres, have done nothing but make the task near impossible. Perhaps it is they who should check with Gee sifu before posting on public boards.)

{slams mic a la Chris Rock, flips mad props to da hommies, and exists stage left}

William E

08-15-2003, 11:44 PM

Rene wrote> (Lastly, it's somehow ironic that shills and trolls want to speak of character when I have done more than most to not only promote but try to improve HFY's image in the WCK world, even when internal elements, in their hubres, have done nothing but make the task near impossible. Perhaps it is they who should check with Gee sifu before posting on public boards.)

HFY does not need Rene Ritchie to promote or improve it's image in the WCK world. Consider yourself relieved of this duty as your posts on this thread prove your not-so hidden agenda against HFY and the VTM. HFY does not need friends like you.

The internal elements that you mention are my brothers and sisters and certainly have the knowledge, background and intelligence to post on this forum or any other. I doubt that you check with your sifu before posting on public boards as this is a truly dumb statement.

William E.

Savi

08-16-2003, 12:39 AM

Savi - Benny knows my email, I'm sure if he wanted to suggest any updates, he'd drop me a note, polite and direct as always, and let me know, and I'd consider it just the same. However, I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that Gee sifu wasn't the first, best source for any and all HFY info. While it may go without saying, it should still be said.
Rene, it is not the responsibility of the people who provide you with information to maintain your site. Master Meng is not responsible to update the information you have on your website; nor is any other party who is on your site.

With regards to character, consider the fact that you call us shills and trolls. Anything on this thread warrant the use of the word shill or troll? Consider the fact that you chose to 'represent' the HFY family without consulting GM Gee. Consider the fact that you let people mock the HFY family when you assumed the role of "HFY Champion" while sarcastically being kind. What did that lead to? The moderators were forced to strictly enforced their rules, and most appropriately so. So I ask why 'we' should go to you with information when it is you who maintains your site. Yet you speak of character? Character is multi-dimensional, and people read this forum.

"Benny knows my e-mail...-Rene" Ego can only get you so far.

I will reiterate, and with all due respect, Master Benny Meng is the curator of the VTM and is the primary source of public information on HFYWCK. As you know he is a very moral and humble individual who carries a high level of respect for all. Either contact him or the VTM staff for your shared interest in HFY's history with regards to the information you currently possess.

anerlich

08-16-2003, 04:22 AM

Another pointless thread of needless hypersensitivity, vituperation and paranoia. Like the majority of those on this subject.

yuanfen

08-16-2003, 07:50 AM

Savi sez:
Rene, it is not the responsibility of the people who provide you with information to maintain your site.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very true--- then why bother Rene on this forum about "updating"
info. on his site..

Rene's site is one of deifferent sites on the net. If any one has a problem they can contact directly.

Agree with Anerlich--- a really unproductive and vituperative thread involving the same usual suspects. Rene- why bother creating this thread or even responding? Your choice of course-
but I dont understand. Ignoring people is not a weakness.

canglong

08-16-2003, 11:02 AM

Another pointless thread of needless hypersensitivity, vituperation and paranoia. Like the majority of those on this subject.
...and you are never far behind.
Very true--- then why bother Rene on this forum about "updating"
because Rene was kind enough to start this thread

The contradiction of being higher and mightier than those posting on a pointless thread reveals itself each time you post.

hunt1

08-17-2003, 08:05 AM

What I find most interesting about this thread is that the most telling and important statement has been completely ignored.

Rene said that in his recent conversation with the head of the HFY family and the source for HFY in North America Gee sifu that Gee himself only stands behind 1/3 of the information the VTM is putting out about HFY. If all the research of the VTM isnt good enough for Gee sifu why should it be good enough for anyone else? If Gee sifu doesnt support with his name and reputation 2/3 of the information being put out why should Rene change his information ?

reneritchie

08-17-2003, 09:36 AM

Hunter,

Though I slammed my mic, gave mad props da hommies, and exited the stage, to be fair to the VTM, Gee sifu never said he didn't stand behind the info the VTM has presented, only that 2/3 of it didn't come from him. He might very well believe the VTM has a very compelling, well thought out, and well fleshed out foundation for the other 2/3, he was just intellectually honest enough to point out it didn't come from him. Giving credit where credit was due, so to speak. (He tends to set a very good example, which will hopefully be followed as much as his martial legacy)

IMHO, this is the same as a lot of what I believe on the history of WCK doesn't come from the system I trained in (we use the Ng Mui, Miu Shun, etc. legend), or that the research Cho Hung-Choi and Hendrik have done on the possible White Crane/Twelve Post origin of WCK doesn't come from the cannon of Yik Kam or the Cho family (who also use the Ng Mui, Miu Shun, etc. legend).

What I do on wingchunkuen.com is show the cannon - ie. Yip Man's account of Henan Shaolin and Ng Mui, the above accounts of Sum Nung and the Cho's, and Gee sifu's lineage as written out on the lineage tree he gave us for CWC. It's not based on my research, your research, Benny's research, or anyone else.

What is more than midly comical, of course, is that I'm trolled about not seeking out the latest conjectures on HFY (who cares about the other lineages...), while on http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/index.php both HFY and Jee Shim are credited to Shaolin, as their origin myths state, while Pien San is credited no further back than Koo Lo, and Yip Man no further back than Hong Kong, a slap in the proverbial face (pun intended) of their origin myths, and an attempt to make them seem like they popped out of the woodwork recently... Ya think they'd see to their own updating first...

But then, I'm backstage chatting with the hostesses...

Rolling_Hand

08-17-2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Pitbull

about wingchun....a delegation from china visited us this week...i thought they are fellow wu zu quzn practitioners or people from south shaolin...i was puzzled when i was told that they are wing chun people...i dont know about what hey talked about w my teacher and club officers...maybe hey came to talk about the november soouth shaolin expo(i hope i will be sponsored to go)

---------------------------------------------

....WING CHUN PEOPLE FROM SOUTH SHAOLIN

Did the VTM and Rene Ritchie ever talk to Pitbull about this?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=15960&pagenumber=3

hunt1

08-17-2003, 02:13 PM

Rene - I stand corrected. Although it doesnt really matter because all this our wing chun is better than yours becuase, ( fill in the reason) would be a wonderfull joke if it werent so sad. To me its all a big goof. I am always surprised at how serious some take it.
And to think how easy all this would be to prove. There are full contact continous sparring tournements all over North America every month some kung - fu some not. Some of these super best combat derived wing chun clans should be cleaning up, winning all the san shou and full contact sparring tounements. Then there would be some evidence of a superior system for everyone to see.

planetwc

08-17-2003, 03:49 PM

Perhaps Geezer and the others find themselves to be more important and more KNOWLEDGABLE in the HFY hierarchy than the current Grandmaster of the system. I guess the students have become the master.

Or this was just another way to work in a slam against Rene. Too bad they didn't consult their own Si-gung before speaking eh?

But getting in the slam wouldn't stand in the way of facts. Perhaps Rene is just waiting for the HFY book which will explain it all!

Originally posted by hunt1
What I find most interesting about this thread is that the most telling and important statement has been completely ignored.

Rene said that in his recent conversation with the head of the HFY family and the source for HFY in North America Gee sifu that Gee himself only stands behind 1/3 of the information the VTM is putting out about HFY. If all the research of the VTM isnt good enough for Gee sifu why should it be good enough for anyone else? If Gee sifu doesnt support with his name and reputation 2/3 of the information being put out why should Rene change his information ?

saifa5k

08-17-2003, 05:41 PM

LOL, love it! Been away from the lists for a year and see the HFY soap opera hasn't changed a bit!
Dave c

canglong

08-17-2003, 07:37 PM

....to be fair to the VTM, Gee sifu never said he didn't stand behind the info the VTM has presented, only that 2/3 of it didn't come from him.

Master Meng and the VTM's research has been aided by Various chinese government officials, Chinese wing chun organizations, private citizens and numerous others. There is no doubt that the 1/3 of the HFY information provided to the VTM by Grandmaster Gee was the impetus for their finding the other 2/3 information which after meeting the prerequisite of their existing guidline was then published and distributed publicly. http://home.vtmuseum.org/information/research_approach.php This sharing of information has taken place in the past, is currently happening and I am sure will continue in the future.

To be fair Rene you might have wanted to post this the first time you mentioned the various sources of the history of HFY.

canglong

08-17-2003, 07:43 PM

....WING CHUN PEOPLE FROM SOUTH SHAOLIN This is very interesting news indeed Rolling_Hand. Do you have any more information concerning this development? Thanks for the heads up I will try and research this some more on my own as well.

Train

08-18-2003, 12:06 AM

Well said Tony!!

black and blue

08-18-2003, 01:16 AM

If students of HFY want Rene's site to be updated, wouldn't it make sense for Grandmaster Gee to contact Rene and say that he agrees/confirms the 2/3 of the information the VTM has published?

That way Rene could update and everyone is happy.

I bought Rene's book 'Complete Wing Chun' a few years ago and found it to be a great read - enjoying all the info on the various lineages, including HFY. When I found out there were HFY students and instructors posting on this forum I was interested to hear what they had to say...

... but this has been a big disappointment. Threads turn into ridiculous arguments and on the whole the HFY guys come across as being hostile, arrogant, and up their own behinds.

Living in the UK, this forum is my only contact with those actively involved in the HFY Wing Chun tradition.... the posts on this forum don't exactly promote your art well, guys.

Beowulf

08-18-2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by canglong

Master Meng and the VTM's research has been aided by Various chinese government officials, Chinese wing chun organizations,
"Aided by Chinese government officials." An interesting choice of support for your "history." Is that supposed to reassure you and your comrades? LOL!

canglong

08-18-2003, 04:27 AM

Black and blue,
There really is no need to use this forum as your only source of information or contact regarding Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen when you can access the VTM or any one of the kwoons the same as you would this forum. Knowing people from the various kwoons I am sure there are many people that would be willing to answer any of your questions directly if you just contact them to ask so take this as an invitation to do just that.

Beowulf,
If you would like to aide the VTM in their research efforts you can contact them directly as well.

Train

08-18-2003, 08:13 AM

... but this has been a big disappointment. Threads turn into ridiculous arguments and on the whole the HFY guys come across as being hostile, arrogant, and up their own behinds.

Black and blue??? You don't think other people are hostile to the HFY people?? I don't find any of the HFY guys as being arrogant or hostile at all. I mean, don't they have a right to defend their lineage and Sifu when being attacked?? I think they came out being very repectfull and honest than other lineages....

Train

08-18-2003, 08:20 AM

"Aided by Chinese government officials." An interesting choice of support for your "history." Is that supposed to reassure you and your comrades? LOL!

Beowulf?? are you trying to add to the flame?? I think this thread can do with out more Sarcasm from people.....

Tony,

Again, well siad!!

kungfu cowboy

08-18-2003, 08:30 AM

I think that Jerry Springer ought to have wing chun lineage as a topic.

reneritchie

08-18-2003, 08:54 AM

Once again, and for the last time, specifically regarding the wingchunkuen.com archives section, it is not intended to host Benny's theories on HFY's origins, nor Hendrik's on Cho, mine on SNWCK, Jim's on KL, etc. etc. They are intended to host the origins as the branches themselves have recorded them.

If that doesn't suit some folks, some agendas, or some sensibilities, that's fine. The web is a big place, and there's room enough for all sorts of opinions and expressions. I'm sure mature adults, especially professionals, will understand this.

On another note, I had the pleasure of watching Discovery again last night, where a researcher with real credentials was trying to prove the identity of a mummy which could have some rather important ripples in the Egyptology world. She used remarkable language such as "consistent with", "suggests that", "could mean", "is possible that", etc. Whenever I watch Discovery, the true professionals always seem *very* clear about distinguishing that which is independantly verifiable and proven, and what is their pet theory or conjecture, and the channel itself, as usual, provided some time for others to give contradicting opinions. Also, when other experts were brought in, it was 'blind', and data was gathered and analyzed without the hypothesis being known so as not to skew results. Until we in WCK, and martial arts in general, begin to behave in such a professional, ethical, and deliberate way, I daresay we won't find ourselves taken very seriously (out side our legions of adoring students, of course).

old jong

08-18-2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
I think that Jerry Springer ought to have wing chun lineage as a topic.

I want to see that!....;) It would be a change from the usual 400pds samoan women who jump at each others!...:eek:

BTW, Lineage politics are only ($)crap($)

Phenix

08-18-2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie

On another note, I had the pleasure of watching Discovery again last night, where a researcher with real credentials was trying to prove the identity of a mummy which could have some rather important ripples in the Egyptology world. She used remarkable language such as "consistent with", "suggests that", "could mean", "is possible that", etc. ..............Until we in WCK, and martial arts in general, begin to behave in such a professional, ethical, and deliberate way, I daresay we won't find ourselves taken very seriously (out side our legions of adoring students, of course).

I watch that program also. Well, I suggest why don't www.wingchunkuen.com host an exhibition.

Get a big hall, ask everyone to present, and exhibit thier evidents, lineages, old pictures.... get every lineage together.
May be get the Beijing MA chair person or CXW grade of people or Chan monk and Tibetian Rimpochi, how about Dalai Lama and richard Gere? to be the judge similar to the Iron chief? Ha hahah that might go too far and politically incorrect.

Inform me when this will happen, I will get all the boxes in my garage ready to test my market! :D
Real Chan $200usd. Real Kuen Kuit $600usd. Real SLT $800USD.
Real indoor disciple $3000. Real Mind Seal $1000. Real YJKYM $200. Real and old Chan $800usd. Real and old Kuen Kuit $1800usd. Real and old SLT$2400USD. Real and old indoor disciple $12000USD. Real and old Mind Seal $3000. Real and Old YJKYM $600. Oh by the way, Dalai Lama will notarized on the Real and Old Mind seal. Richard Gere will notarized on the Real mind seal. Your web wants to be my distributor? I will contact Gene also for selling Yim Wing Chun Sport Shoes (ofcause joking please don't take it serious) :D

Or else, we will go back to Canton to dig out and identify Yim Wing Chun. similar to the researchers and called it Wingchuntology :D

I bet you there is a woman involve in these all her name or nick name might be Wing Chun. But last name might be real. Yim. Since that is Fujianese. and So, want to start a gambling?:D lets bet, Hey Joy, you bet there is or there is not? how about Jim, where are you Jim after that Hawaii fun? :D Hey Paul ... Vow, we can open up a big account in Las Vages for all of these. Business man . relax man, win or lose we all make money in Las Vegas!:D

teazer

08-18-2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by saifa5k
the HFY soap opera hasn't changed a bit!
Dave c

Too true. Just another example of how some people feel big by cutting others down rather than by actually growing.
Sad really, though vaguely amusing to observe from the sidelines.

canglong

08-18-2003, 01:57 PM

Too true. Just another example of how some people feel big by cutting others down rather than by actually growing.
Please refrain from using this forum as your primary source for HFYWCK. If you care to learn more on the topic of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen what is preventing you from contacting both a HFY instructor(s) as well as independent sources directly on your own before drawing these misinformed and misleading conclusion?

PaulH

08-18-2003, 01:59 PM

Hendrik,

No thanks to your latest offer.

Comedy is tragedy plus time.
- Carol Burnett

It has been a long, so very long tragedy. I wish to have nothing to do with it.

"Where there is so much destructive memory, a little forgetfulness may be in order." Elon

Regards,

Savi

08-18-2003, 02:50 PM

It is sad but true that several of the users on this forum have helped develop a history of attacking other families/people. It is unfortunate that those few who try and drag the HFY name in the mud have in some way succeeded. Proof being some of the comments made on this thread alone.

I have met nearly every HFY member who participates on this forum and can tell you from first hand experience that they are quite humble and honest people. My opinion may not mean much to others, but I for one would rather choose to see a path of growth in the Wing Chun world as opposed to a path of seperation and personal bickering.

To counter all the nonsense regarding the HFY, we have developed our own forum where people worldwide can view, read, and participate with the HFY family in a light much closer to our nature. It is quite a different environment than here.

Black and Blue, others, I wish you would come and visit our forum for a different approach to the HFY family. We are not what you seem to think at this moment. :)

www.hfy108.com

desertwingchun2

08-18-2003, 03:14 PM

"If you care to learn more on the topic of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen what is preventing you from contacting both a HFY instructor(s) as well as independent sources directly on your own before drawing these misinformed and misleading conclusion?" - Canglong

This sums it all up! Simple and direct. If there are questions to be asked ask those involved. First hand knowledge is always better than someone told someone and that someone told me. Going back to my original post, John Murphy was the primary source of information for Rene's project. Robert Chu attended classes of GM Gee's and added from his experienes.

As for the Museum and their reasearch. I've heard many times that the reaserch they conducted matched very closely with the oral history traditionally passed down within the HFY family. With so many common points the museum persued HFYWCK.

-David

Chango

08-18-2003, 03:41 PM

Well said Savi!

But just to bring things back into perspective. It is as simple as this. Geezer noticed the incomplete information on Rene's site concerning HFY's History. Direct members of the HFY family have confirmed this information was not complete. So instead of correcting this information. Rene chooses to bicker and waste our time with such a thread. The rest of his "yes men" have just jump on board twisting the thread once again. Those on the side lines seem to get the wrong impressions and other ideas. I have to apologize for Rene and his cronies. I don't think they have the foresite to see a need to do so themselves. Instead of the thread being a healthy discussion or a sharing tool it was turned into the mess that it is. But of course this thread started with Rene choosing to express his huge ego. this being echoed in the tone of his first post he did not have any intentions of healthy discussion.

Rene,
The fact remains Rene your site is in need of updates all HFY members seem to agree. In light of being factually correct you should fix it or atleast do the foot traffic. If you don't it just speaks on the wieght of your words. It seems that your words are on the atkins plan! (loosing wieght everyday!) LOL!

BTW there is nothing more pathetic then a "dude" from the suburbs with no connection to the urban experience trying to use urban slang. It brings to mind the less then politically correct updated slang term "wigga". If you do not know what that is just think of the difference between Vanilla Ice (a wigga) and Eminem (not a wigga just being himself) . In the hood I mean the real one not the one that you visit Via MTV or if you can get BET where you are? The word "Homies" hasn't been used since the 80's. So let's just say that you don't know how bad or even boarderline insulting you sound. For you own good please spare us all.

Sifu Chango (SGS)

PaulH

08-18-2003, 04:29 PM

Savi,

Being a good natured fellow, I think you will see this:

Nothing living should ever be treated with contempt. Whatever it is that lives, a man, a tree, or a bird, should be touched gently, because the time is short. Civilization is another word for respect for life.
- Elizabeth Goudge

The problem is not HFY or Rene from my personal point of view. It's a fundamental lack of respects on both sides and from so many HFY-related threads that is so disheartening. There got to be life beyond the Wing Chun Dome!

Regards,

Savi

08-18-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Savi,

Being a good natured fellow, I think you will see this:

Nothing living should ever be treated with contempt. Whatever it is that lives, a man, a tree, or a bird, should be touched gently, because the time is short. Civilization is another word for respect for life.
- Elizabeth Goudge

The problem is not HFY or Rene from my personal point of view. It's a fundamental lack of respects on both sides and from so many HFY-related threads that is so disheartening. There got to be life beyond the Wing Chun Dome!

Regards,
Paul,
Your quote [above] made me smile. It certainly brings things into a more universal perspective, which can do everyone here a bit of good. Respect can be a very difficult thing to achieve when the only senses we have available via the internet is our sight. The interesting and appealing thing about martial arts and sciences, is that it requires ALL of our senses to gain that respect, understanding and experience about things.

There are people on all sides who have reservations about other people. However, the one thing I feel that is precious to the kung fu world is that of Family. The HFY family for example, as many have attested to , is something to aspire to. And this is true for [b] all martial families who exhibit characteristics common to high morals and respect. The common pattern we have in this particular WC forum is that there exists certain users who blatantly encourage conflict and drama for their own reasons/agendas. This only adds to the seperation of our families. This is not the nature or intent of the HFY family, but it is in our nature to defend the harmony of our family. I think we all should have an inclination to do the same for everyone, but this isn't a utopia of course. Perhaps this is part of the balance.

The difference between that (paragraph above) and this WC forum is that of individuality being mistaken for familial representation. All the bickering about HFY is not about HFY at all. This thread - as an example - is about Rene and his website. He provided a comment to the HFY family which he felt sufficed regarding HFY info on his site. Some HFY family members in turn provided an alternative for whom he rebuttled. We pointed him to a more accurate source regarding public information on the history within and surrounding the history of HFY, yet Rene chose to look past it while trying to make another point which did not go unnoticed by us.

We are not posting on this thread to tell Rene how to do his job. We are only trying to tell him where the most appropriate source of public information is in order to better suit his position. Whether or not he heeds our advice is up to him. As we have pointed out, the VTM has innumerable sources of information surrounding the HFYWCK lore and tradition in addition (and support) to Master Gee's expertise as well.

Again for those who might be interested in HFY, WC and other Southern Shaolin arts, please continue to post here, but also at our own forum www.hfy108.com You will find very hospitable folk there. It is a young forum, so there is plenty of space to add your contributions and questions.

Savi

08-18-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by teazer
Too true. Just another example of how some people feel big by cutting others down rather than by actually growing.
Sad really, though vaguely amusing to observe from the sidelines.
Teazer, never posted to you but I'm sorry you believe this to be true about us. I can assure you the picture that has been painted by others in this forum is not an accurate reflection by any means about our family OR this forum. It only reflects the ones who painted it. Hopefully my previous posts here can change your mind about us? If not, again I am sorry you feel this way.

Take care.

Savi

08-18-2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by planetwc
Perhaps Geezer and the others find themselves to be more important and more KNOWLEDGABLE in the HFY hierarchy than the current Grandmaster of the system. I guess the students have become the master.

Or this was just another way to work in a slam against Rene. Too bad they didn't consult their own Si-gung before speaking eh?

But getting in the slam wouldn't stand in the way of facts. Perhaps Rene is just waiting for the HFY book which will explain it all!

David, presumptions are the first step to isolation. Keep in mind that what you have said is only your opinion and not the truth.

The book (thanks for mentioning it) is scheduled to be released in (I think) seven different countries in October of this year.

teazer

08-18-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by canglong
Please refrain from using this forum as your primary source for HFYWCK. If you care to learn more on the topic of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen what is preventing you from contacting both a HFY instructor(s) as well as independent sources directly on your own before drawing these misinformed and misleading conclusion?

1. It was a reflection on the individuals' discourse rather than upon the style itself. This would seem to be an adequate forum for that.
2. Actually I feel no great compunction to learn about HFY, having ample opportunities for development already. I suspect that as a system it is quite effective, though it seems at first glance to be a little over-theoretical. So I wish you well in its practice.

No doubt I will peruse the www.hfy108.com forum as well. Thank you, Savi, for the link. If I'm in the area of one of the mentioned instructors, or if anyone is passing through the Carolinas feeling sociable, perhaps we could have a chat.

planetwc

08-18-2003, 07:43 PM

Hey Savi,

My pleasure to plug the upcoming book.
What I say is always just my opinion, just as it is for everyone else who posts here.

Presumptions are part of how we are wired as human beings. We make micro and macro judgements constantly in our daily existance. Our hope is that we can occasionally live in the present as opposed to being on automatic pilot.

That said: judgements are just thoughts, just as opinions, facts and presumptions are. Thoughts, thoughts and more thoughts!

As I lookup from my laptop screen here in my hotel room, I see a rainbow playing across the horizon, framing the the green and yellow mountains of Maui. A moment in the present. :)

My wife and I have enjoyed our time here together. Don't worry, I'm not isolated.

Savi, I've found you to be one of the most reasonable and open HFY students here on ths forum.

Good Luck in your training.

Originally posted by Savi

David, presumptions are the first step to isolation. Keep in mind that what you have said is only your opinion and not the truth.

The book (thanks for mentioning it) is scheduled to be released in (I think) seven different countries in October of this year.

reneritchie

08-19-2003, 07:14 AM

Savi,

Please allow me to address myself to you and you alone (or perhaps Levi if he's lurking) as you've been, time and again, one of the few with whom I've not had terminal communication errors.

Can you please explain to me what exactly the problem is? Please understand that from my perspective, I've explained exactly the purpose of the WC Archives site, yet despite that, a few specific people keep offering up the same complaint. Was my explination not understandable? Am I missing something which allows for these requests to fall into my criteria.

See, to give a concrete example, if Yip X's students began posting on the forum that they discovered that there were four generations between Leung Jan and Chan Wah-Shun, and asked me to update my Yip Man listing to include them, I would have to decline, since that would fall under 'recent theory', and not 'ancestral record', which is what the archives site is dedicated to. I would understand Yip X's students not being happy about this, but I would hope they understood the criteria.

Also, I hope people understand I am one person. I do not have a school or museum with multiple branch students or staff members. Just me. Therefore, I don't respond well to swarms of students making requests (or demands) on the part of others, nor to pressure (or bullying).

I do respond well to reasonable discussion, and I'm willing to discuss pretty much anything. Hopefully, if there is a misunderstanding on either part here, we can resolve it.

We (myself and the VTM) have very different ideas on how certain things should be handled. This has, and probably will continue to, create problems between us. Only good faith and concerted effort will over come them. If I personally wasn't interested, I wouldn't bother.

Phil Redmond

08-19-2003, 09:21 AM

Hi All,
Since this thread focuses on HFY I have a query regarding Freddy Wong. I had never heard of him until I received the seminar tour email from my Sifu. He is listed to host a TWC seminar in HK. I posted Sifu's tour schedule here and on a few WC forums. Some one wrote me if I knew anthing about Freddy Wong and also wrote that Freddy Wong claims to be a student of both W. Cheung and G. Gee, and studies both HFY and TWC.
Does anyone know who he is or if that's true?
Of course I will email Sifu about him, but I wondered if anyone here knew of him.
Phil

S.Teebas

08-19-2003, 11:02 AM

Isnt HFY and TWC the same thing??:confused:

Savi

08-19-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Can you please explain to me what exactly the problem is? Please understand that from my perspective, I've explained exactly the purpose of the WC Archives site, yet despite that, a few specific people keep offering up the same complaint. Was my explination not understandable? Am I missing something which allows for these requests to fall into my criteria. Inconsistency; that is the problem. From what I understand, many people think of wingchunkuen.com as one of the best wing chun sites on the net (among many others). I see that because of this reason, you should have the most up to date information on all lineages being represented on your site. Of course, we all have our own priorities and cannot at all times keep up with every different lineage, but if we are to serve as a 'trafficer of information' then we have to make that occasional update between us and our sources. Hence, the consistency of information between sites.
Originally posted by reneritchie
See, to give a concrete example, if Yip X's students began posting on the forum that they discovered that there were four generations between Leung Jan and Chan Wah-Shun, and asked me to update my Yip Man listing to include them, I would have to decline, since that would fall under 'recent theory', and not 'ancestral record', which is what the archives site is dedicated to. I would understand Yip X's students not being happy about this, but I would hope they understood the criteria. "Recent theory" is never put out by the VTM unless they are truly positive about their findings. They have a multitude of sources around the world for which to prove and disprove their work. It is not the intent to spread mis-information or half-hearted research into the public. The VTM does not have the mindset to only document the complete "ancestral record" of the HFY, but also its role in the history of China as well. This means that they have to do research in and around the HFY all together. I am not sure how clear it is on your site, the focus on "ancestral record", but the VTM's mission is to ferret out all verifiable facts that are consistent with today's findings, and find a means to present it to the public. If this is considered by you to be "recent theory", either a) you haven't really read their recent articles or b) you have a different value scale for their efforts or c) you believe that the HFY research is misguided. To me, recent theory and ancestral record are important in historical research. If you have already deemed the VTM research to be purely theoretical, I would ask Master Benny Meng or his research staff what is and is not theory regarding HFY history if you are not completely sure.

Originally posted by reneritchie
Also, I hope people understand I am one person. I do not have a school or museum with multiple branch students or staff members. Just me. Therefore, I don't respond well to swarms of students making requests (or demands) on the part of others, nor to pressure (or bullying). More heads are better than one, right? The VTM curator, Master Meng, also has to deal with problems (ie internet slander) on every level. However, when new concrete research and findings exist, they find time to update their site. It would be to your benefit, unless the VTM staff has already contacted you, to contact them so that you could better serve the public with up to date information. Right now is a good time to double check in the information on your site to accurately reflect the HFY family's documented information from the VTM.
Originally posted by reneritchie
I do respond well to reasonable discussion, and I'm willing to discuss pretty much anything. Hopefully, if there is a misunderstanding on either part here, we can resolve it. Hope is a very good thing. Successful communication can only benefit everyone.
Originally posted by reneritchie
We (myself and the VTM) have very different ideas on how certain things should be handled. This has, and probably will continue to, create problems between us. Only good faith and concerted effort will over come them. If I personally wasn't interested, I wouldn't bother. If this is true, will you 'bother' to see what is and is not consistent with the information you have on your web site in comparison to the VTM's research and documentation? The 'good faith and concerted effort' is a symbiotic relationship. Consider the posts on this thread as a knock on your door to re-establish communication with the VTM. As I said in a previous post:
We are not posting on this thread to tell Rene how to do his job. We are only trying to tell him where the most appropriate source of public information is in order to better suit his position. Whether or not he heeds our advice is up to him. As we have pointed out, the VTM has innumerable sources of information surrounding the HFYWCK lore and tradition in addition (and support) to Master Gee's expertise as well.

Savi

08-19-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Isnt HFY and TWC the same thing??:confused:
Hi Teebas, the answer is no, they are not the same thing. They may be similar in appearance and contain similar things to a degree. But because they are ONLY similar, they are precisely different.

S.Teebas

08-19-2003, 11:21 AM

Ok. Thanks Savi! :cool:

Savi

08-19-2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by teazer
2. Actually I feel no great compunction to learn about HFY, having ample opportunities for development already. I suspect that as a system it is quite effective, though it seems at first glance to be a little over-theoretical. So I wish you well in its practice. Actually Teazer, all the theory in HFY is taught in bits and pieces. Much of the class time spent in teaching HFY is through drilling (SLT: little drilling in the beginning). The HFY members who participate on this forum have well enough technical knowledge (SNT: little concepts/ideas in the beginning) to discuss HFY.

Being that we categorize HFY as a martial science is that it contains theories. It contains principles and concepts. Science also contains formulas as well as heuristics. All this falls under (in our system) Siu Nim Tau. All of the laboratories/experiments are done through Siu Lim Tau where things are proven or disproven. All of these elements are consistent with one another in comparison to today's "system approach" also. Meaning that there is not one element in HFY that is in contradiction to another element; things are in balance.

So what you mostly get on this forum thusfar from our family is technical information on HFY, whenever there is a thread about the technical aspects of HFY of course. And then there are the threads which aren't technical at all, but HFY is as much Theoretical as it is Practical.

Savi

08-19-2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hi All,
Since this thread focuses on HFY I have a query regarding Freddy Wong. I had never heard of him until I received the seminar tour email from my Sifu. He is listed to host a TWC seminar in HK. I posted Sifu's tour schedule here and on a few WC forums. Some one wrote me if I knew anthing about Freddy Wong and also wrote that Freddy Wong claims to be a student of both W. Cheung and G. Gee, and studies both HFY and TWC.
Does anyone know who he is or if that's true?
Of course I will email Sifu about him, but I wondered if anyone here knew of him.
Phil Howdy Sifu Redmond! Unfortunately I am not familiar with Freddy Wong. The name sounds very familiar to me though. Maybe someone else knows of him that could help you out.

Zhuge Liang

08-19-2003, 11:41 AM

Hi Savi,

Just a few notes,

Originally posted by Savi
Inconsistency; that is the problem. From what I understand, many people think of wingchunkuen.com as one of the best wing chun sites on the net (among many others). I see that because of this reason, you should have the most up to date information on all lineages being represented on your site.

With all due respect, the site is his and not yours. If he wishes to have a section for lineage histories/stories as passed down by the lineages themselves, that is up to him. Perhaps in the future he will have a section on his site for modern research. Perhaps not. But again, that is up to him and not you.

As for consistency, I think he is very consistent with regards to his site. He has more information on the history of his lineage as well, and some of it do not agree with the history passed down from his lineage. But since that section of his site is dedicated to lineage histories, he did not update the YKS/Sum Nung lineage stories with modern info either.

However, when new concrete research and findings exist, they find time to update their site.

Then why hasn't the geneology section of the vt museum site been updated? Is it that there is no "concrete" evidence in existance past Hong Kong for Yip Man Wing Chun? Or that there is no verifiable evidence that Pin Sun Wing Chun went further back than Koo Lo?

No disrespect intended, just trying to examine the logic in the situation.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

reneritchie

08-19-2003, 11:45 AM

Hi Savi,

I think we might have a failure to communicate. What you replied to me suggests you didn't read my previous replies on this thread? I'll sum. I believe different kinds of information can have merit. For example, even if we one day prove WCK (for the sake of argument) was founded aboard the Red Junks of Guangdong, I would still think it was important to preserve all the various creation myths of the different branches (Ng Mui, Mui Shun, Yim Wing Chun, etc.). If a site were dedicated to that type of preservation, it would be improper to 'modify' the creation myths with modern historical research, theories, or conjecture. Do you see what I mean?

By the same token, I've repeated several times that I have no interest, in that section of the archives, to get into modern thinking on the origins of different branches. Do you understand that 'consistency' is exactly what I'm doing?

I don't list the VTM's thinking on HFY
I don't list Cho Hung-Choi's thinking on Cho Ga (White Crane/Emei)
I don't list my thinking on Sum Nung
Etc.

This is consistent. You and some of your fellows are asking me to become 'inconsistent' (letting one group modify archival material and not others), and I'm politely declining. Does that make sense?

Now do you also see why I think its ironic the VTM website lists HFY and CS as coming from Shaolin and Pien San and Yip Man as coming recently from Koo Lo and Heung Kong because that is, in fact, inconsistent?

Or are we defining the term differently?

reneritchie

08-19-2003, 11:56 AM

BTW- In case we have different interpretations of other words, in my mind, when we talk of 'concrete' or 'research' or 'proof' or 'fact', we mean properly sourced material that can be independantly verified by unbiased third parties and peer reviewed by other experts in the field. Until such material is provided by anyone in the WCK historical debate (myself included), we are entirely in the realm of theory, conjecture, and speculation (which is not a problem, as long as we're professional and mature enough to properly identify it as such).

Note, saying you have 'concrete research' behind your information is not having 'concrete research', as my 3rd grade math teacher kept telling me -- 'You have to show the work'.

Zhuge Liang - I do provide a place in the archives for modern historical works, including mine, Hendriks, and others (including Y.C. Yeung's 'Wing Chun comes from Shaolin' theory -- which is not something I personally agree with but in the interest of providing well rounded views (even experts can disagree or read the same material differently) I want to make available all the more) -- http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/index.html

The VTM also provides their own website to host their own theories (see definition above), as do others, so hopefully there is a wide range of views available on the 'net for WCK enthusiasts.

Savi

08-19-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hi Savi,

I think we might have a failure to communicate. What you replied to me suggests you didn't read my previous replies on this thread? I'll sum. I believe different kinds of information can have merit. For example, even if we one day prove WCK (for the sake of argument) was founded aboard the Red Junks of Guangdong, I would still think it was important to preserve all the various creation myths of the different branches (Ng Mui, Mui Shun, Yim Wing Chun, etc.). If a site were dedicated to that type of preservation, it would be improper to 'modify' the creation myths with modern historical research, theories, or conjecture. Do you see what I mean?

By the same token, I've repeated several times that I have no interest, in that section of the archives, to get into modern thinking on the origins of different branches. Do you understand that 'consistency' is exactly what I'm doing?

I don't list the VTM's thinking on HFY
I don't list Cho Hung-Choi's thinking on Cho Ga (White Crane/Emei)
I don't list my thinking on Sum Nung
Etc.

This is consistent. You and some of your fellows are asking me to become 'inconsistent' (letting one group modify archival material and not others), and I'm politely declining. Does that make sense?

Now do you also see why I think its ironic the VTM website lists HFY and CS as coming from Shaolin and Pien San and Yip Man as coming recently from Koo Lo and Heung Kong because that is, in fact, inconsistent?

Or are we defining the term differently?
My use of the word "Consistent" was in relation to your site and the museum site. I was not referring to you being consistent with yourself.

Now I realize that the intent behind your site is to "preserve all the various creation myths of the different branches" as they have provided to the public. I am not implying that you should change your information to match what you see as opinion from third parties. Again:
I would ask Master Benny Meng or his research staff what is and is not theory regarding HFY history if you are not completely sure. If, as you have just stated, you are declining to address what we believe to be inaccurate or outdated then we have our answer. No further discussion between you and I needed on this matter.

=============================================

Zhuge Liang,
With all due respect, the site is his and not yours. If he wishes to have a section for lineage histories/stories as passed down by the lineages themselves, that is up to him. I know you don't mean any disrespect. Your point is not lost on us Zhuge Liang. I am not telling him what to do. Some of the HFY participants on this forum have noted some discrepancies, we are only suggesting a remedy. In a previous post I stated that we are not telling Rene how to do his job.
Then why hasn't the geneology section of the vt museum site been updated? Is it that there is no "concrete" evidence in existance past Hong Kong for Yip Man Wing Chun? Or that there is no verifiable evidence that Pin Sun Wing Chun went further back than Koo Lo? Although I do not speak for the VTM Zhuge Liang, keep in mind that despite the VTM having many members within it, they cannot focus on every single WC family at one time. Right now the VTM is researching other WC systems aside from the ones you mentioned at this time. They might even be putting more pieces to the above mentioned lineages as we speak. As an example: I am, along others, on the HFY family tree but it does not show on the web site. When they have the time there is no doubt they will update their information. I do know their focus is in another area at this time. This is about the only answer I could give you since I do not speak for the VTM.

Rene has made a firm point that he will not change/update the information on his site. He may feel that he has the whole history of the HFY family's "ancestral record". OK. No further efforts are necessary.

reneritchie

08-19-2003, 12:25 PM

Actually, I said if Benny or any of Gee sifu's direct students want to email me I'd be happy to discuss it.

Since I'm fortunate to have the lineage tree Gee sifu wrote out (or had written out in Chinese) for us for Complete Wing Chun, it's fairly easy for me to see what's on it as opposed to what has been fleshed out in more recent versions.

keep in mind that despite the VTM having many members within it, they cannot focus on every single WC family at one time.

Yet I, with no members, am supposed to chase after everyone for updates on material not meant for update? At least I get a smile on a Tueday :)

Savi

08-19-2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Yet I, with no members, am supposed to chase after everyone for updates on material not meant for update? At least I get a smile on a Tueday :)
Uh Rene, are comments like this really necessary? Perhaps you didn't read the last couple times I mentioned it, but I'll say again for the last time: WE ARE NOT TELLING YOU HOW TO DO YOUR JOB!

I'm glad you can smile on Tuesday.

reneritchie

08-19-2003, 01:03 PM

Hi Savi,

It seems like there's still a lot of baggage. Hopefully we'll get lucky and in the downsizing, some airline will lose it. Until then, I wish you and yours well.

Savi

08-19-2003, 01:07 PM

Keep smiling.

teazer

08-19-2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Savi
Actually Teazer, all the theory in HFY is taught in bits and pieces. Much of the class time spent in teaching HFY is through drilling (SLT: little drilling in the beginning). The HFY members who participate on this forum have well enough technical knowledge (SNT: little concepts/ideas in the beginning) to discuss HFY.

Being that we categorize HFY as a martial science is that it contains theories. It contains principles and concepts. Science also contains formulas as well as heuristics. All this falls under (in our system) Siu Nim Tau. All of the laboratories/experiments are done through Siu Lim Tau where things are proven or disproven. All of these elements are consistent with one another in comparison to today's "system approach" also. Meaning that there is not one element in HFY that is in contradiction to another element; things are in balance.........

Thank you for taking the time to explain your understanding and experience of HFY practice. I assumed it had a very structured system of development. Certainly without guided physical practice it might be difficult for students to relate to even basic theory. But it does still seem at first glance to be a quite considerable amount of detail. Now that is obviously not necessarily a fault. But the question could be raised of its relevance, efficiency or the overall effects from that teaching format.
Regarding the SLT, SNT distinction, are there signs from the VTM's research of the existence of HFY lineages that were derived from the SLT teaching alone? It would make sense that if SNT were used to teach instructors who then then taught the rank and file, there would be more lineages of people that just practiced the SLT alone (or is this where the TWC similarity comes in!!) Perhaps that would be better discussed under a separate topic, or if you are more comfortable, on the other forum.

On a side note, after the suggestions received, I once again reviewed the information on the various HFY sites. Hence, a quick question. I noticed on one that Gee Sifu also taught Pakua and Tai Chi. Would anyone know when and with whom he studied these?

Phil Redmond

08-19-2003, 01:58 PM

Hi Savi,
I hope all is well with you.
I didn't want to post this because I don't want to make it look like I'm down on HFY because I'm not, but I had to get this off my chest. I still can't understand why my question on hfy108.com where I asked whether or not Dr. Wang Ming is alive or teaching was closed right after Benny Meng posted. I had no clue that it was a prohibited subject. I wasn't asking for someone's SS# or personal info. I was simply curious as I am about all WCK Sifus. That situation reminded me of "I learned from a master that lives on the mountain and he won't teach anyone", and sounds really suspect. A simple, yes he is, or no he isn't would have been a lot more up front. My system has a controversy associated with it also, but I am open and not re-active. I will answer 'any' question if I have the answer. I am curious about hfy because there may be a link, (outside of the fact that they're both WCK...smile), to TWC. I plan to keep on probing so I hope any future questions won't seem offensive.

Savi

08-19-2003, 02:16 PM

We most certainly respect your views Sifu Redmond. The best answer I could give you regarding Sitaigung Gee's sifu is that of Sigung Meng's response. It is a private issue for whom we would not prefer to discuss Dr. Wang Ming in the public eye, which we also must respect Master Gee's wishes. In this sense, we cannot even provide a yes or no to your question. Your query was not offensive, but it is a sensitive issue nonetheless. The upcoming HFY book in 2 months may bring some new information to your plate.

I would however like to ask (on our other forum) about a clip I saw on your website which demonstrates a "Kwan Sau" type (Bong Sau-Wu Sau appearance) drilling motion. This seems similar to a training progression we have called Bong Laap Kiu Sau in HFY. I have not yet started the thread because I want to be clear in what I have observed from your site as well as be sure I know what I am going to ask!

Take care Sifu Redmond. I'll put up the thread later on in the week or so, unless you would like to start it of course.

Savi

08-19-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by teazer
Thank you for taking the time to explain your understanding and experience of HFY practice. I assumed it had a very structured system of development. Certainly without guided physical practice it might be difficult for students to relate to even basic theory. But it does still seem at first glance to be a quite considerable amount of detail. Now that is obviously not necessarily a fault. But the question could be raised of its relevance, efficiency or the overall effects from that teaching format. From my discussions and training with the HFY family, it is all based on a philosophy called Saam Mo Kiu, which addresses the different levels of awareness in all of us. From wandering to aware to focused, the method of teaching brings all of us through that sequence in a systematic approach so that the passing of knowledge is clear and understood. You could think of it as going through SNT/SLT to Chun Kiu to Biu Jee; almost the same thing. That same approach is broken down then into every level of progression within each level. Basic, intermediate, advanced levels of knowledge and skill challenges. The effect of this teaching method (keep in mind this is a very basic explanation) brings everyone to the same conclusions about what is effective and what is inefficient. It also allows room to challenge the results, as I said in the previous post about SNT and SLT training. It is designed to bring everone to a common ground of understanding and development. Thus what is 'real' and what is not is clearly understood.

Regarding the SLT, SNT distinction, are there signs from the VTM's research of the existence of HFY lineages that were derived from the SLT teaching alone? It would make sense that if SNT were used to teach instructors who then then taught the rank and file, there would be more lineages of people that just practiced the SLT alone (or is this where the TWC similarity comes in!!) Perhaps that would be better discussed under a separate topic, or if you are more comfortable, on the other forum. From this POV, *I* think that according to what I have seen in VTM research, yes one could conclude that bits and pieces of HFY have made its way through the Hung Seun (Red Boats) and into different lineages today. Key figures in history have been documented in both HFY and Red Opera/Red Boat grounds like Cheung Ng (Red Opera 1700's) and Hung Gun Biu (Red Boats 1800's). Does this lend any connection to TWC, no. It leaves room for speculation though.

On a side note, after the suggestions received, I once again reviewed the information on the various HFY sites. Hence, a quick question. I noticed on one that Gee Sifu also taught Pakua and Tai Chi. Would anyone know when and with whom he studied these? To quote from the VTM website:
Garrett Gee Sifu stands the eighth generation disciple of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System taught under Grand Master Dr. Ming Wong. Further more, Garrett Gee Sifu was born in a multi-generational martial arts family renown for intellectual leadership, statesmanship, and excellence in martial arts and military matters. His historical lineage dates back to the Song Dynasty where his ancestor, Zhu Xi, had a profound influence on Chinese philosophical development for generations through his expositions on logical thought and scientific rationale. His family is reknown for its foundation in the "internal" arts of Hsing I, Pak Gua, and Tai Chi along many other martial arts for generations. But I think to answer your question, he learned it from his family.

Phil Redmond

08-19-2003, 02:53 PM

Hi Savi,
Thanks for understanding.
What clip were you refering to? Our kwan sao is a bong/tan combination. If you saw a bong/wu then it's simply a bong sao with the wu as a guard hand.

committment

08-19-2003, 11:40 PM

Freddy Wong in HK

Hi All,
Since this thread focuses on HFY I have a query regarding Freddy Wong. I had never heard of him until I received the seminar tour email from my Sifu. He is listed to host a TWC seminar in HK. I posted Sifu's tour schedule here and on a few WC forums. Some one wrote me if I knew anthing about Freddy Wong and also wrote that Freddy Wong claims to be a student of both W. Cheung and G. Gee, and studies both HFY and TWC.
Does anyone know who he is or if that's true?
Of course I will email Sifu about him, but I wondered if anyone here knew of him.

Phil

Sifu Redmond,

In the last 30 years of teaching, GM Garrett Gee has taught over 500 students. Currently, there are HFY practitioners running schools across the USA using the HFY name without the knowledge of the HFY family. Those practitioners never completed the system nor were they certified. As for Freddy Wong, no, the name does not ring a bell. Currently the only certified HFY kwoon/instructors are in Ohio and Arizona.

Josh

committment

08-20-2003, 12:16 AM

Hi Teebas, the answer is no, they are not the same thing. They may be similar in appearance and contain similar things to a degree. But because they are ONLY similar, they are precisely different. Savi

Savi,

I agreed with you. Last month we had a visitor, Jeff Moy, from Sifu Dana Wong's kwoon. Jeff has been studying under Sifu Wong for 3-4 years. Initially, yes, Jeff said the two lineages look sort-of similar in appearance.

With the demonstration of the HFY SNT and BJ forms and a brief explanation on the forms and training methods of HFYWCK, Jeff realized that the two lineages are very very different. By the end of the night, Jeff acknowledged that the two systems have their own identities and are very different in many ways.

Josh

Savi

08-21-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by committment
[B] In the last 30 years of teaching, GM Garrett Gee has taught over 500 students. Currently, there are HFY practitioners running schools across the USA using the HFY name without the knowledge of the HFY family. Those practitioners never completed the system nor were they certified.

Josh Josh,
Do you know of any of those schools? Any in AZ or CA aside from the headquarters (SF) and regional headquarters (PHX)? Give me a pm.

Rolling_Hand

08-21-2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Josh

In the last 30 years of teaching, GM Garrett Gee has taught over 500 students. Currently, there are HFY practitioners running schools across the USA using the HFY name without the knowledge of the HFY family. Those practitioners never completed the system nor were they certified. As for Freddy Wong, no, the name does not ring a bell. Currently the only certified HFY kwoon/instructors are in Ohio and Arizona.

--------------------------------------------

Hi Josh,

Is Guru Neal Bryant a certified HFYWCK teacher?

http://www.authenticbeladiri.com/guro.htm

committment

08-22-2003, 12:45 AM

Hi Josh,

Is Guru Neal Bryant a certified HFYWCK teacher? Rolling_Hand

Hi Rolling_Hand

Guru Neal Bryant was a great fighter and a good student for GM Garrett Gee. The list of certified instructors will be posted in the Hung Fa Yi wing chun website in a few weeks.

Josh

Mr Punch

08-22-2003, 01:29 AM

In answer to Savi, and a few others:

it does seem to be the case, to someone from a different continent, who is now living on another different continent, that most of the personal insults and lineage BS comes from HFYers, when the TWCers aren't at it!

It's just as well to say go to the HFY forum, but that's full of HFY peeps: it's how you conduct yourselves in public that counts. You're right, no-one should take this board, or Rene's board as gospel according to VTM or HFY lineage tales, they should go and listen at the horse's mouth, but hearing the braying of some of the asses in public on this forum, a lot of people are just going to wind up thinking they just don't ever want anything to do with the whole stable.

Anyyway, I've said my piece of horse****, back to lurking until the Lineage Wars finish (and I'm old and grey!)...

saifa5k

08-22-2003, 08:35 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil Redmond
[B]Hi Savi,
I hope all is well with you.
I didn't want to post this because I don't want to make it look like I'm down on HFY because I'm not, but I had to get this off my chest. I still can't understand why my question on hfy108.com where I asked whether or not Dr. Wang Ming is alive or teaching was closed right after Benny Meng posted.

Hi Phil,
Its top secret Phil ;).
Dave c

saifa5k

08-22-2003, 08:35 PM

Savi

08-23-2003, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Mat
it does seem to be the case, to someone from a different continent, who is now living on another different continent, that most of the personal insults and lineage BS comes from HFYers, when the TWCers aren't at it!

It's just as well to say go to the HFY forum, but that's full of HFY peeps: it's how you conduct yourselves in public that counts. You're right, no-one should take this board, or Rene's board as gospel according to VTM or HFY lineage tales, they should go and listen at the horse's mouth, but hearing the braying of some of the asses in public on this forum, a lot of people are just going to wind up thinking they just don't ever want anything to do with the whole stable.

Anyyway, I've said my piece of horse****, back to lurking until the Lineage Wars finish (and I'm old and grey!)...
Mat,
You bring a good perspective into the forum. If it does seem to be the case that the HFY members here are the instigators of personal insults and lineage BS, then hopefully what seems to be true will eventually show its true nature. Hearing things straight from the RIGHT source is so much better than electronic dialogue. This way, you can judge the character and integrity of whom you are interacting with much more accurately.

Conducting yourself in public certainly does matter, but you really get to know someone in their own "home" as well; as they are, away from the social pressures. I don't conduct myself much differently within the various areas of my life. I'm pretty much myself everywhere I go.

Many of my family members stay away from this forum, and others feel a sense of duty in protecting the HFY name when necessary. This, as well as making sure that the correct information about the system in part or whole is out there. Hence the upcoming book in a couple months. It has a wealth of information including illustrations, photos, charts and tables. As one of my classmates said, "This book's gotta lot of meat for what they're getting!" There are many people who already want their hands on it, myself included. Too bad we have to wait.