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IronFist
08-14-2003, 07:13 PM
I need a weight lifting program that incorporates the following:

Strength: Duh.
Size: I've lost like 12 lbs.
Explosiveness: Why not?
Endurance: To much 5 rep crap (even 10 sets of 5 reps with only 1 minute rest) has completely killed my muscular endurance. By muscular endurance, I mean lifting 5 reps was fine, but I couldn't do 6 or 7, even at very low weights.

So I'm asking like a newbie because everytime I lift like a normal bodybuilder I get bigger but no stronger. And I can get strong with 5 rep stuff but then endurance goes out the window. I don't want to max all of them because I know that's not possible, but I'd like a decent combination.

I guess I want something westside style, but when I look at their programs I don't understand them. :confused:

So, if I was going to combine sets of 8 reps with explosive stuff and then lower rep strength stuff, what is the best way to do that? Should I have one day of each per week (that's similiar to what westside does, right?)? Or should I do like 8 rep sets for a while and then switch to lower rep higher weight stuff? How long should I do each one for?

I've also tried doing just 5 sets of 8 reps with the same weight each time with 1 min rest, but I'm not sure if there's a point to doing that because if it's hard to complete like the 3rd or 4th set, I know I won't get all 8 reps on the last set so then I can't finish the sets and I don't want to increase the weight any for the next day.

^That was a long sentence.

Alright. Advice please.

IronFist

Ford Prefect
08-15-2003, 04:46 AM
::cough:: ::cough:: westside barbell ::cough::

fa_jing
08-15-2003, 11:52 AM
Here is my advice:

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=80

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=81


That's what I want to try over the winter when I get back inside a gym.

For reference, I'm going to find out my 1RM in the three power lifts soon, with a friend.

IronFist
08-15-2003, 02:45 PM
Ford said:
::cough:: ::cough:: westside barbell ::cough::

But I said:
I guess I want something westside style, but when I look at their programs I don't understand them. :confused:

That was my way of asking for some help on where to find them or the general concept of their programs.

And then fa_jing said:
Here is my advice:
http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/a...e2&articleid=80
http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/a...e2&articleid=81

But those are mostly low rep things, which I'm trying to avoid now. However, the intro set from the second one (sets of 9 and 7) might be something I would consider.

But as for Smolov, I hear a) you get way overtrained, and b) all his lifters are on drugs, which are supposedly a necessary component to his cycles working properly.

IronFist

abobo
08-15-2003, 04:27 PM
I've been working on a flow chart type of thing to try to make a good periodized program.

I list my goals and try to see how they stack up in accordance with methods from a few articles that I've read with good info. Stuff from T-Mag, Dr. Squat, EliteFTS, Dragon Door, etc.

So I've got a few core lifts I'm interested in, and a few useful assistance exercises. I want to keep it as simple as possible.

Of course there is more than one answer about how to cycle things like speed, intensity, and volume.

But I make a few notes every day. Right now PtP is still working for me but eventually I will want something less streamlined.

You should try something like that. I learned a lot just by writing stuff down that I already knew about, if that makes sense.


Also, on EliteFTS there is an article for a nine week program for newbies. Maybe it will help.

IronFist
08-15-2003, 04:31 PM
Could you give me a link to that article? The only thing I see on their site is the store. But, this computer that I'm currently on has a ton of security things going on and in the past have prevented pages from loading properly so I think I might be missing something.

IronFist

abobo
08-15-2003, 04:41 PM
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/9week-training-program.htm

and if you need to refresh your memory on the background stuff:

http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_133per.html

IronFist
08-15-2003, 06:54 PM
I think I've seen that article before.

Here are some things I don't understand:

Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Mornings: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max.
Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps. Stress the eccentric, try to get a four count on they way down.
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps
Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15 reps


How much weight do I use for any of the things that don't list weights? It would make sense if it was a bodyweight exercise, but "Incline Barbell Tricep Extensions: 5 sets 6 reps" is definately a weight exercise.

What is a glute ham raise? Straight Leg Raise?
You're supposed to 1RM on Good Mornings? Is that safe?

Why are there no quad exercises on "Max Effort Squat Day"

What is a board press? One Arm Press?

One Leg Squats: 4 sets of 10 with each leg

Do they mean pistols? 4 sets of 10, yeah right!

Bent Over Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 rep

Is that a medial delt exercise?

What are box squats?

Wtf is a "seated dumbell clean?" :confused:

I know what seated means, I know what a dumbell is, and I know what a clean is, but I can't imagine combining them.

What is a JM press?

What is a "Partial Deadlift?"

face Pulls: 5 sets 15 reps

Wtf is that?

How do "Low box squats" differ from "box squats?"

I must have completely missed something because that program doesn't make any sense to me.

Edit - also there's no bicep work on there, except for the bit the do on dumbell rows.

Help please.

IronFist

Ford Prefect
08-16-2003, 07:54 AM
Hey Iron,

Luckily I had the ability to have Dave Tate explain these to me rather thoroughly. I'll give you a brief run down and feel free to ask me any questions after that.

A) Weight Lifting

Westside Barbell splits their lifting days into four days. Two days are for max effort work (one each for upper and lower body) and two days for speed work (one each for upper and lower body). The cycle they recommend, but you can switch to fit your needs is:

Monday: Max Effort Legs

Wednesday: Max Effort Bench

Friday: Dynamic (speed) Legs

Sunday: Dynamic Bench

What a Max effort Day consists of is:

*Main Exercise: this exercise is the exercise with the most carry over to maximal strength in the squat, dl, or bench. The rep range for any Max Effort (ME) exercise is between 1 & 5. You should do 2-3 light warm-up sets followed by 5 or so work sets building up to your 1-5RM. Only rest 1-2 minutes between sets. They generally split lower body like this:

70% of ME Legs days are done with a goodmorning variation (regular goodmorning, wide/narrow stance goodmorning, arched-back goodmorning, goodmorning squat... etc)

20% of ME Legs days are Box Squats

10% of ME Legs days are deadlifts variations like regular DL, sumo, snatch pulls, clean pulls, etc

For upperbody there is numerous exercises they do: board press, floor press, close-grip incline press, pin press, incline pin press, and they'll even do dips occasionally.

*Supplemental Exercise: This exercise is meant to cause strength/hypertrophy gains in the muscles that are used in the "main exercise" Generally hamstrings for leg days and triceps & back in bench days. The rep range is anywhere between 8-15 and the rest is only 1 minute between sets for every exercise done after the main max-effort exercise.

Lowerbody common supplemental exercises:
4x15 Romanian DL
8x8-12 Pull-throughs
8x8-12 glue-ham raises
6x8-12 DB snatches
6x8-12 reverse hypers

Upperbody supplemetal exercises for triceps:
6x2-5 pin press (since it is similar to ME exercise only do on dynamic day)
60 reps total skull crushers (no more than 10 reps/set)
60 reps total DB extensions (regular and elbows out)
60 reps total dips (same as above)

Upperbody Supplemental exercises for back:
6xfail pull-ups
6x8-12 seated cable rows (use grip most similar bench)
6x8-12 Barbell Rows

*Accessory Exercises: These are exercises that reinforce the previous exercises done or exercises that work other muscle groups that can be inportant for the lift. Work in the 8-12 rep range and only rest 1 min between sets:

Typical Lowerbody acessory exercises:
5-8x8-12 Pull-down Abs (very good exercise for abs. should do at least one or two abs exercises every leg day)
4xfail Foot-to-bar hanging leg raises
4xfail Dragonflags
4xfail ab wheel
4x8-12 flat bench (romain chair) hyperextensions or reverse hypers

Typical Upperbody accessory exercises:
3x8-12 face pulls (rear delts. they usally do this every work)
3-4x8-12 exernal rotations (every workout or every other)
3-4x8-12 shoulder press or upright row (every or every other)

::catches breath::

Now onto the Dynamic Upper and Lowerbody Workouts. These workouts are structures the EXACT same way the Max Effort days were except instead of doing a lifting for a 1-5RM in your main exercise you:

Lowerbody-
Box Squat 8-12 x 2 * done explosively as possible; rest max of 30 seconds between sets and only use 45-60% your 1RM (a minimum of 135 lbs)

Upperbody-
Bench Press 8-12 x 3 * done explosively as possible; rest max of 30 seconds and only use 45-60% 1RM (minimum of 135 lbs) Also alternate grip every set. Alternate between close-grip bench, moderate grip (slightly further out than close grip), and wide grip (pinkies on power rings)
Bench Press

After this you go onto your supplemental and accessory work. It is quite common to do two hamstring supplemental exercises after a dynamic lowerbody day.

B) GPP work

Westside guys like to do sled dragging on off days for recovery and GPP building. They like the sled because there is no eccentric action, so basically the muscle is just pumped with blood for recovery. Light calesthenic work is also done. Just don't do anything that you couldn't easily rip off sets of 25 with.

That's about it. Let me know if you have any questions.

Ford Prefect
08-16-2003, 07:55 AM
Gotta run for the rest of the weekend. I'll answer the questions in your above post on monday.

FatherDog
08-16-2003, 10:23 PM
Ford seems to be a real font of info in this regard, so I do hope he continues expounding, but in the meantime, this series of articles helped me to understand the westside approach a lot better:

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/264eight.jsp
http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/265eight.jsp
http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/266eight.jsp
http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/267eight.jsp

Ford Prefect
08-18-2003, 06:59 AM
"What is a glute ham raise? Straight Leg Raise?"

Glute-ham raise is like a reverse leg curl. Instead of curling you shins to your butt to work your hamstrings, you are laying down and curl your body up. You need a special bench to them westside style, but you can do a variation by padding your knees and having something weighting the back of shins.

Straight leg raise is just lying flat on bench with your legs hanging off of it. Keep them straight and raise them perpendicular with your body. To increase difficulty you can use ankle straps and chain weight to them.

"You're supposed to 1RM on Good Mornings? Is that safe?"

It's safe, but's it recommended to work your way slowly to working your 1RM on them over a month or two. What I did was 5RM's for one month, and 3RM's for the next. Then I did 1RM.

"Why are there no quad exercises on "Max Effort Squat Day""

Westside believes there is a huge strength deficit between most peoples hamstrings and quads. After all, if your posterior chain was as strong as your quads, you should be able to squat the same weight you can leg press. Also when squatting correctly powerlifting style, the squat is prodominantly a hamstring and glute exercise. They work the quads with the sled on off days, but they will rarely do anything with weights for them. They produce huge squatters, so I think they may be onto something.

"What is a board press? One Arm Press?"

Board Press is done with 3-5 2x4's nailed together. You put them on your chest and only bring the bar down to the boards when benching. Many westside ME bench exercises don't work the lower ROM of the bench. They believe that speed with explode the bar off your chest and strength works the rest of the way up.

One-arm Press could be a few things I know they do. They do dumbbell shoulder presses and bench presses by alternating left/right throughout the set. It could also be a side press a la Pavel.

"Do they mean pistols? 4 sets of 10, yeah right"

Yup. They mean pistols. Obviously this is more advanced, but you'd be surprised how much the added strength from the program increases your ability to do these. I never really did many of them, but a month or two into training I was ripping them off easily.


"Is that a medial delt exercise?"

Don't remember the delt head names off-hand. Rear delt? Yes.

"What are box squats?"

Box Squats are can be done on a bench or those aerobic steps. You put it in between your legs so it's perpendicular with your body. Sit BACK (not down) onto the bench in a controlled manner, and then back up. Not only does is help teach correct squat form but it nails your hamstrings and glutes too. There are descriptions of them at elite fitness's site in the article "How to Squat 900 lbs"

"Wtf is a "seated dumbell clean?" "

Sit down with the DB's/arms hanging at your sides and perform a clean type motion to bring them to your shoulders like you would if you were trying to do deated dumbbell shoulder press.

"What is a JM press?"

Don't sweat it. Advanced ME bench exercise. No need to do it.

"What is a "Partial Deadlift?" "

Basically a deadlift off block or onto pins. In a power rack set the pins a little of your knees and deadlift off the ground to the pins to work the beginning of the motion or off the pins to lockout to work the end of it.

"Wtf is that?" (face pull)

Go to where you'd do tricep push-downs and attach a tricep rope or a tricep strap (like a rope but has handles). Pull the rope towards your face like a row. Imagine rowing it so the middle of the rope hits your forehead.

"How do "Low box squats" differ from "box squats?""

Box squat it done so your thighs are parellel with the ground. Low box squats go beyond that.

"Edit - also there's no bicep work on there, except for the bit the do on dumbell rows"

You don't need bicep isolation work to bench big which is what they are trying to accomplish.

Universal Stance
08-18-2003, 09:06 AM
Body for Life (http://www.bodyforlife.com/)

I use this method. Trust me it works. It uses the pyramid system and will fix your muscular endurance.

The progs sets are like this (The percentage is what I do in terms of weight; the system uses a intensity rating: ie. set 1 is rating 5, and set 6 is rating 10; ratings = difficulty performing the set not weight).

One Exercise: (ex. Bench)
Set 1: 12 reps about 50% [5] 1RM (1 rep max)
Set 2: 10 reps about 60% [6]
Set 3: 8 reps about 70% [7]
Set 4: 6 reps about 80% [8]
Set 5: 12 reps about 60% [9]

Done IMMEDIATELY after last set (NO REST). Same muscle, different exercise and target: (ex. Butterflies or Incline Bench)
Set 6: 12 " " 60% [10]

Also they prefer dumbbells to barbells.
Read on the site the rotations and dieting.

Suntzu
08-18-2003, 11:22 AM
this is what I sometimes do… I'm gonna be brief tho…

pick one of the big 3…. Do a max strength WO… ie. 5x5 squats… follow that up with a hi-rep WO… ie. A KB WO… or a BWE WO… same with the Bench and OH presses… simple as that…

fa_jing
08-18-2003, 01:35 PM
Yeah, I like to do a pure strength scheme, then follow up later after some rest with endurance work. The combo seems to work nice. Like what Suntzu said.

lowsweep
08-18-2003, 03:14 PM
Westside did great things for me strength-wise. Right now I am on http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/244anti.jsp
It's hypertrophy with strength gains. Im making strength gains on this faster than I have in months. If you pick your excercises right, you also gain size very fast too. Try it if westside doesnt work out, or if you'd like something slightly less complicated (but not that much...). Both Westside and Anti-Establishment Hypertrophy incorporate low-rep and high-rep days for each muscle group. I think you'll find both programs will fill your needs. Also, check around if you choose westside. Ford Prefect posted the basic program but there are at least 30 variations for different goals/body types.

IronFist
08-19-2003, 01:00 AM
Let me digest all that info and then post more questions.

Ford, thanks for your huge informative posts!

IronFist

IronFist
08-19-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Universal Stance

One Exercise: (ex. Bench)
Set 1: 12 reps about 50% [5] 1RM (1 rep max)
Set 2: 10 reps about 60% [6]
Set 3: 8 reps about 70% [7]
Set 4: 6 reps about 80% [8]
Set 5: 12 reps about 60% [9]

Done IMMEDIATELY after last set (NO REST). Same muscle, different exercise and target: (ex. Butterflies or Incline Bench)
Set 6: 12 " " 60% [10]


Cool, but I didn't see anything about when to increase the weights each workout, or how much to increase them by, or anything else along these lines.

IronFist

IronFist
08-19-2003, 04:53 PM
Well, I've read all that Westide stuff. It sounds cool, but, I still don't know how much weight to use for any of the stuff. I mean, looking at a random part of the program like this:

Glute Ham Raise: 5 sets of 5 reps
Partial Deadlifts: 3 sets of 20 reps

Take the 5 sets of 5: how much weight is that? Is it 5x5RM? Or should it be a low enough weight that it's fairly easy to complete the 5x5? Are you supposed to start low and increase a little each workout a la PTP, or are you supposed to be maxing out each time? Or is it past failure, rest-pause type training.

That's one of the things I like about Pavel's stuff. You take your 1RM and then absolutely everything in the program fits perfectly in to place after that.

Also, looking over that 9 week Westside program, I think my quads would shrink even more if I were to train like that. Maybe my squat might go up, but the only quad work in there was sets of 2 and 3. That's not conducive to growth or endurance.

I agree with Ford about squatting being a good ham and glute exercise. After a squating workout my hamstrings are always sore, but my quads are more sore. If it's been a while since I last squatted, I can barely walk up and down stairs when I'm done cuz they're so sore. As stated above, however, occasional sets of 2 and 3 for my quads are not going to help that any.

So, I think I'm going to pass on the Westside stuff for the time being, which sucks because I always hear awesome things about them and I wanted to try their program. Unless, of course, I find another version of their program that has a crap load of squats and hypertrophy-inducing quad work thrown in.

IronFist

Ford Prefect
08-20-2003, 04:32 AM
Well, you won't find anything for Westside with any quad or bicep work. You could always edit the program to suit your needs. It's the conjugated periodization is what makes it such a powerful program. Most programs here in the US and even Pavel says you have to split max strength, speed, and endurance work into different cycles. Westside's style allows you to do it all in the same cycle.

IronFist
08-20-2003, 10:50 AM
Ford, I appreciate all your help so far. When you're looking at exercises like the ones I quoted above in italics (I'll put them here again):

Glute Ham Raise: 5 sets of 5 reps
Partial Deadlifts: 3 sets of 20 reps

Now these are just two random exercises I picked from the list. How do you know how much weight do you use (% of 1RM)? And does it change over time (like add 2% each workout or something)? I need to know that if I'm going to incorporate that into a cycle somehow.

Hmm... maybe I'll make up my own IronFist cycle :p

IronFist

FatherDog
08-20-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by IronFist
Now these are just two random exercises I picked from the list. How do you know how much weight do you use (% of 1RM)? And does it change over time (like add 2% each workout or something)? I need to know that if I'm going to incorporate that into a cycle somehow.

From the articles I linked to earlier in the thread:



How do you cycle the other stuff?

The max effort movement isn't the only movement that has to cycle on this day. All the supplemental movements must also cycle. These movements won't cycle at the same rate as the max effort movement as they can be cycled longer. The four ways I recommend cycling these movements are weight related, rep related, set related, and movement related.

1) Weight Related Cycles - With this method you'll try to use more weight for the same reps with the same movement until you can't increase any longer. At this point you'll switch the movement.

For example, let's say you choose dumbbell extensions for your triceps movement. For week one you perform 50 pound dumbbell extensions for 3 sets of 10 reps. The next week you do 60 pound dumbbells for 3 sets of 10 reps. The third week you use 70 pound dumbbells for two sets of 10 reps and one set of 6 reps. Now it's time to change the movement or the method of training the same movement.

2) Rep Related Cycles - With this method you'll try to get more reps on each set of a given movement. For example, let's say you choose the GHR for your hamstring work and get one set of 6, one set of 5 and a third set of 5. The next week you want to try to get more reps then you did the last time. After three to four weeks (or when you can no longer add more reps), you'll switch the movement or the method for training the same movement.

3) Set Related Cycles - This method is one of the best for increasing volume fast over the training cycle. All you do here is add an additional set to the movement with a desired number of reps. For example, you decide to use reverse hypers as your lower back movement. For week one you do 2 sets of 10 reps.
Week two, 3 sets of 10 reps, for week three, 4 sets of 10 reps, and on week four you get 4 sets of 10 reps, but only 7 reps on the fifth set. This is when it's time to change the movement or method.
4) Movement Related Cycles - With this method you'll switch the movement every week and cycle the sets and reps from week to week. This is the best choice for the more advanced lifter as they've already figured out how to train on feel.

The actual movement doesn't need to change every three weeks but something has to change every few weeks. I feel the reverse hyper and GHR are both very important to my training and both are trained two to four times per week. This would be an example of how I'd cycle my GHR movement for the main session:

GHR Cycle

Weeks 1-3

Monday: GHR, rep related cycle

Friday: GHR on 6 inch incline, weight related cycle

Weeks 4-7

Monday: Ballistic GHR, rep related

Friday: GHR on 10 inch incline, rep related cycle

Note: These cycles may not last the three weeks as the change may need to happen before then because of stagnation. The two days will also cycle independent of each other.


http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/265eight.jsp

IronFist
08-20-2003, 11:34 AM
Maybe I missed that the first time. Let me look over it again.

IronFist

Ka
08-21-2003, 06:24 AM
Ahh T-mag
I am sure you will work it out,
But I am currently addicted to Olympic Combos and think they are the stuff
check out
www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/274bear.jsp
try it with an Overhead Squat
and make this your warmup
www.t-mag.com/articles/197steel.html

OLifts Rule:D

Ford Prefect
08-21-2003, 06:43 AM
Thanks Father. That saved me a lot of typing! :)

BAI HE
08-21-2003, 08:30 AM
What does RM mean?
Sorry for being a stooge. Just getting back into
the fitness thing.

BAI HE
08-21-2003, 08:38 AM
"Ford Prefect posted the basic program but there are at least 30 variations for different goals/body types."

Posted where?

Ford Prefect
08-21-2003, 08:39 AM
Rm = Rep Max

For example if you can only Bench 225lbs 1 time, then your "1RM" for bench is 225 lbs.

A lof of programs use this method to let the lifter know how much weight he should use.

ie Bench 3 x 12 @ 60% 1RM would mean to do 3 sets of 12 reps using 60% of the weight you can lift once.

Get it?

FatherDog
08-21-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Thanks Father. That saved me a lot of typing! :)

No prob. Hey, do you know of anywhere with pictures that shows correct 'Westside' form for a squat? I've been trying to do it the way they describe (wide stance, knees pushing out, ass to the floor) but I'm not certain I'm doing it right, and pictures would be helpful so I can check my form in the mirror. I worry about my knees.

Ford Prefect
08-21-2003, 10:01 AM
PM me ;)

IronFist
08-21-2003, 12:04 PM
Hey, no telling secrets. I want to see, too!

Universal Stance
08-22-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by IronFist


Cool, but I didn't see anything about when to increase the weights each workout, or how much to increase them by, or anything else along these lines.

IronFist

The system goes by intensity instead of weight. Lets you listen to your body above all else.

the intensity scale is from 5 (warmup) 10 (grueling)

5 intensity is using a weight that you know will activate your muscle fibers but is still easy to do above 12 reps.

6 is what ever weight makes you work harder but you can still do 10 reps.

and so on

9 and 10 are intensities your muscles are seriously yelling at you. You should be about complete failure on the last rep of the 10 intensity (your superset).

Generally I go up whenever I don't feel like I am reaching failure on my last set. 10-20lbs up on double arm/leg exercises 5lbs on single.

Remember it's about listening to your own body and keeping a log of it all.

nothingness
08-22-2003, 11:48 AM
Ironfist-

This is in response to another thread of yours where you talked about getting sick alot. Based on reading a number of your posts relating to your diet (TV dinners), I think you would do well to educate yourself more about diet, organic food, and eating for HEALTH as opposed to muscle development. Some sources I would encourage you to check out are the books 1)Mad Cowboy, the 2) Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity, 3) Chi Kung- the Way of Power, and 4) the website rawfoods.com (click on the articles section).- enjoy

IronFist
08-22-2003, 04:47 PM
nothingness,

Thanks for the advice. I try to eat a lot of "healthy" food, and vegetables and fruits and stuff. I just use Hungry Man dinners as supplements :D :D :D :D

I'll check out your recommendations.

IronFist

FatherDog
08-23-2003, 12:23 AM
Taking a B-complex multivitamin and drinking more orange juice will clear up about 90% of what causes frequent illness in most people.

IronFist
08-23-2003, 02:08 PM
I take GNC's megamen vitamin, which has tons of all the B vitamins in it. And I love orange juice, but not the kind with the pulp in it. :D

IronFist

FatherDog
08-24-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by IronFist
And I love orange juice, but not the kind with the pulp in it. :D

IronFist

That just means you're a right-thinking human being. My mother likes the orange juice you eat witha spoon. I maintain that this is a sign of madness.