Why can't grapplers fight dirty?

[KnightSabre]

I have heard plenty of the same kind of arguements given by various martial artists. They always say the same crap about biting, eye goughing, etc. They never seem to realize the absolute finality of jiu-jitsu used in a street situation. Go ahead and bite, pinch, poke eyes, grab the groin....these are not reliable techniques to win a fight, and see what happens to you when you do this to a guy who is mounted on top of you. You will find out the hard way that you made the biggest mistake of your life.
I have been in the martial arts for 12 years and training in BJJ for over 4, and you will NEVER find another martial art that offers so many effective ways to end a fight with finallity. It's not like so many other styles where you're always wondering...well, would that really work? Im not sure because I've only practiced this move in slow motion using control with a partner who is co-operating. Jiu-Jitsu says..."go ahead, do what ever you want, I've got an answer".

[KrAzy FiLiPino]

Good post..I agree.

Peace

Daryl

Yes. A lot of "striking only" stylists don't understand grappling and kind of over-estimate their ability to fight on the ground just because they say they can do eye gouges, groin grabs, and biting.

[Budokan]

Agreed. Pretty much the same way "wrestling only" stylists underestimate their ability and their chances in a fight if they really think that's all they need.

What? You say there aren't propogandists like that out there shilling for wrestling? Look again.

And as far as the statement that we will NEVER find another art with as much fight stopping finality...YAWN. Seems I heard much the same thing about Judo in the 50s, karate in the 60s, kung fu in the 70s, TKD (and don't forget those nasty ninjas) in the 80s, and now wrestling in the 90s.

This is the problem so many martial artists have with wrestlers: it's the unqualified arrogance. Give it a rest already. Wrestling is a good sport, but it's not the end all and be all of martial arts. Stop pretending that it is; we don't buy it.

K. Mark Hoover

[count]

KnightSaber, I agree with your post for the most part. I for one, have NEVER taken the position that kung fu has a patent on elbow braking, eye gouging or groin kicks. This is a dumb argument usually made by people with little to no actual experience. I have no doubt of BJJ effectiveness as a fighting art. One of my best friends is a BJJ guy and he will be the first one to tell you of it's limitations in other arenas. The problem of rules and all that BJJ does not address is, in the street, there really are no rules. That means while you are grappling your opponent, 3 or 4 others can jump on top of you with bricks and bottles and pummel you. Out come the chains, knives, guns whatever is available that if it is not a finishing technique, it will certainly do the damage. Streets are littered with glass and gravel, and all sorts of I would not want to roll around in.

I am the last person to put down any style and I love Ju Jitsu too. I just don't think they have a patent on the attitude "go ahead, do what ever you want, I've got an answer". There are way to many questions in the street to have all the answers. I will not reply in the post that is called "kung fu, ineffective?" That one was doomed from day one. But this thread has the potential for an interesting discussion. I hope you don't take my comments as an insult as I am interested in learning if I am wrong. Do you think someone who only trains a grappling art can deal with three or more attackers? Why would you want to go to the ground in the street when you should really want to just get away?

My response to your question, "why can't grapplers fight dirty?" is - they can. Their techniques can be lethal when there is no one to say stop. But the same goes for any real martial art.
y

[KnightSabre]

budokan,thats why I'm a mixed martial artist and couple good striking with good grappling.In my experiences with NHB comps or street fights I still think that my BJJ has the most effective fight finnishes.

[KnightSabre]

Count,I hear you.
I don't think BJJ is the answer to everything which is the very reason I cross train.Do I think it's the best single style you can learn if you had to choose?Yes,on it's own I would say that it's more effective than all other single styles.

BJJ was undefeated until Mixed Martial artists came along.

On the street if you are gonna be up against more than 2 apponents you should run,and only fight when cornerred and then fight to survive.Anywayz I usually walk arround with friends who also train in Mixed Martial Arts.What would a striking martial artist do on the street if he gets jumped by 2 grapplers,he can't even beat one.

I do Tai Boxing and enjoy it alot,I think it's a very effective striking style and makes you tough to boot.I did 2 and a half years of wing chun and think it's great too.

[count]

LOL, I really do see there is strength in numbers. always the best when someone can watch your back. But if you could only study ONE style, wouldn't it be better to choose the one that puts more emphasis on multiple opponents and multiple ranges and multiple techniques?Ñ

[Black Jack]

KnightSabre I don't know if you have ever had any of those tech's used on you in a real fight but to say that biting and eye gouging are not reliable techniques to win a fight is IMO not a street smart outlook.

Biting is a technique like any other, from the jab to the naked rear choke, it needs serious practice and it requires some knowledge on where, when and how to bite as well as the massive psychological effects it can have in a streetfight.

There is a difference between grappling and groundfighting and in the street a bite is a very viable technique to use in a combat situation.

In some arts biting is almost like a science and the harsh damage a skilled biter can do both to a attackers body and even more importantly to their psychological makeup is something a fighter should be aware of.

Everyone is scared of disfigurement and losing bodyparts, the massive panic and damage you would feel if I was to reach over and bite off your nose, tear off your lip, take a chunk out of your ear, cheek or throat and basically maim you like a mad animal is something that has very viable effects.

Eye gouging is similar, its hard to fight with a thumb or finger buried nuckle deep into your eye socket as you are trying to grapple, all a person is going to be thinking about when a person is gouging there eyes is how to get the person the hell away from them, besides the damage that will come by from a good eye gouge is the great panic attack that most attackers will have when a person resorts to this level, that lose of control will give the defender the ability to flow into another technique to finnish the job like an armbar for instance or for him to get the hell out of there, which in itself finnishes the fight.

Not to mention you could blind the attacker for ever if enough force was used.

I would not train the bite and eye gouge into my gameplan if I did not know that they were capable of finnishing a fight.

Regards

[Master Po]

Personally I dont like the bite because of the risk of aids, hepititis, and many other blood illneses. Eye gouges can be very effective as well as attacks to the neck. It is also important to look at you situation. If you blind someone or worse kill them as a trained martial artist you better **** well be able to prove your LIFE WAS IN DANGER. Courts often come down very hard on trained fighters.

To back up Knightsaber I had a friend who was a pretty good fighter in high school. He was in a fight in the alley with about ten of us watching. It was just a after school think and the other guy was getting hit pretty hard. My friend wasnt really tring to hurt the guy too bad and would accually let him get back up when he fell. THen the other guy bit my friend on the side of the neck. My friend lost it and beat the poor kid into a pulp. We had to pull him off, he was like a wild animal. Biting was the worst thing that other guy could have done.

Blackjack is right about the mental affect being bit or gouged can have but it can be much worst for the biter then the bity sometimes.

[Black Jack]

Thats because the kid...and we are talking about a kid right...did not know the proper way to apply the bite and where to apply the bite in accordance with other techniques.

Biting is a techinque and if we look at it from that standpoint, we as martial artists should understand that a techinque needs to be trained and studied to understand why it should be applied, where it can be applied to have the best advantage and how it can be applied to have the max ability for damage or confusion.

You have to combine the techinque's of biting with your other fighting tools and concepts that you work on, to get the best results, same as when a person blocks, he then strikes or flows into a tech, you have to add them to your gameplan.

That and you have to commit fully to the bite so it can have the results you want, you have to be serious about its intent, just as any other strike would need a full commitment to be effective.

The more severe biting areas should only be used in a serious street alertercation where the life of yourself or your loved one's are on the line and you ahve no other choice but to respond to such measures.

A trained bite can be a very powerfull tool to use and it could be the difference in walking away the victor or being the corpse on the ground.

On the subject of bloodborne diseases, it would be a pretty rare occurance to contact a bloodborne disease, but if I happened to have a open cut in my mouth and got infected with HIV that then later turned into full blown AIDs, at least I would of bought myself a few more years of living and being around those I love than dying right there on the spot.

Regards

[JWTAYLOR]

Why can't grapplers fight dirty?

Because many of them don't train to fight dirty.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[chokeyouout]

All grapplers secretly train in the deadly arts of iron Shirt,eagle claw,chi balls and ninja evasion tactics.

[KrAzy FiLiPino]

Does BJJ incorporate any stand up grappling??

Peace

Daryl

[Archangel]

We seem to agree on alot of points... except this one. Do you consider Shootfighting a style? I certainly do, and I find it a more complete system than BJJ.

[LEGEND]

KRAZY...good question...depends on the school! Many from my knowledge do not focus on standup grappling...they do a couple of hip toss and basic bjj entry takedown techs! These would work on an average THUG...however I would advise folkstyle and freestyle wrestling training=clinch work...also MUY THAI clinch if you're a STRIKER! I find muy thai clinch are AWESOME...

A

[YoungForest]

I'm a grappler and a striker and i gotta say what the hell kinda question is this? Fight dirty? Only pus*sies fight dirty...why would you fight dirty if you have skills?
It's not a matter of grappling. And what exactly do you mean by fighting dirty? Poking in the eyes? Hair pulling? groin shots? Well hate to break it to you but lately that's what Ju Jitsu is all about. Self Defense. That's what they do, groin shots and 'cheap' shots. People have different opions on what cheap shots are but that's what mine is anyways. If you're a martial artist and you practice an art, you're not practicing it to look good, you're practicing it to USE IT.

[KrAzy FiLiPino]

Thx for the info LEGEND.

JigGa, I wouldn't consider fighting dirty as being a p*ssy if the other guy was trying to cripple or kill me...I'll do anything to walk away. If it was just a "normal" everyday fight like in high school where there was the basic shoving and a haymaker thrown in, sure I wouldn't use anything to maim.

Peace

Daryl

[atsai]

Unless I'm fighting Hannibal Lecter, I don't worry much about a powerful bites.

I CAN'T SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE, but I think throat, eye, groin attacks and whatnot does change the game; they're not "dirty tricks" or foul play.

My professor is taking self-defense course. She doesn't know much about boxing, kicks or any submission holds. But she does know eye attack and groin gouge..., I mean, eye gouge and groin attack and many more cute tricks(she actually grinned a little when she talks about how to gouge an eyeball...) She'll get creamed in UFC/NHB; all her techniques are illegal. But if allowed, her opponent will have to rememeber she's able to do some serious damage (like flunking them in English).

Last night, NBC showed a special "close call" videos of Steve Irwin, aka Crocodile Hunter. After watching those videos, I thought, them crocs can't bite! To take down a croc, he need to jump on top of it and wrestle w/ it. A submission hold is using you weight to control the croc and grab his jaw real tight. The crocs, w/ those puny legs, are sluggish on land; they can't lash forward and strike like a snake. They attack by swinging their head and bite w/ their jaw. Like my guinea pigs, crocs don't have stereoscopic vision; their eyes are on sides of their head, they can only have one eye on the target. Poor depth perception means they missalot! Say there is a small chance, less than 5% maybe, that Croc hunter will get bitten. Do you think he'll still be as careful handling a croc? OF COURSE HE WILL!

I don't know about others, but if a striker can use those techniques, I'll be real prudent when taking him down--even if the chance of him actually hitting my eye socket is small. This also seems to be the reason many people turn away styles that require you to get real close, like Wing Chun--they're not confident they can safely close the gap.

Of course, an incomplete fighter will still lose. Rules aginst eye gouging, biting, various forms of groin manipulation should exist in NHB type competition--this is not Mortal Kombat or Thunderdome(although the octagonal cage resembles one). But I do think they take some edge off many styles and allow one to close the distance easier.

Art

"Two men enter; one man leaves." --rule of Thunderdome

[This message was edited by Art T on 03-20-01 at 04:51 PM.]

[ope]

When your in a real fight on the street and your life is in danger there is no such thing as a dirty technque fighting is fighting espacialy if its for your life what you think a ref is gonna jump out from some where and disqualify you? i dunno about biting but i would not hasatate to hit some one in the groin or throat or eyes if my life is in danger.. And i would like to say that there are plenty.. plenty.. of kungfu technques which are complete infact there are technques that kill a man with 3 to 4 motions there are techques that can stop some one in there tracks in 2 motions... well at least in the type of styles we practice.. infact a student in our school hospilised a guy who pulled a gun on him as the guy dipped for his gun he broke his arm in 3 places and knocked him out cold.. im not saying bjj is not effective im saying that kungfu is very effectice..

[YoungForest]

IF im in a fight for my life situation, i'd use a weapon, no questions asked...
that's a whole new ball game

[Budokan]

Unfortunate but true. It's not like it used to be. MA pale in comparision with the number of gun-carrying nuts out there. Not that long ago you used to have to worry about a knife, very rarely a gun. Now it's both but with the gun taking center stage. MA are great for tradition and building character and getting in shape physically and mentally--but they don't and can't compete with a gun.

Technology has outstripped martial arts. I don't know what MA can do to balance that equation. My fear is, not much. And if that's so we may be seeing the first inklings of the fall of MA, and maybe a Dark Age where people just don't bother anymore. Easy enough to understand why. I can buy and conceal a gun and with moderate practice become proficient. Why do MA when a self-defense weapon is so readily available? It's almost self-defeating...

K. Mark Hoover

[JWTAYLOR]

Welcome to the board Art T. Nice post.

Jiga, I've never seen a BJJ school actual practice things like groin strikes and eye gouges. I've been to allot of BJJ and GJJ seminars and schools and I've never seen them practice going for the eyes or groin from the ground. Given, they get into some great positions to do it, I'm just not seeing them practice it. And I've never bought the "I could if I wanted to" line from anyone. For that matter, do BJJ guys ever practice going for finger and toe breaks?
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Finger locks are really easy to slip out of. Some times i will grab a finger to pull their hand off my collar, but i certainly can't tap them out with that finger. They are not reliable fight finishers.

If you have someone mounted it is so easy to eye gouge them. It is simple. They can't go anywhere or move their head out of the way becuase their stuck.

[JWTAYLOR]

There is allot more to breaking fingers and hands than just locks. And I've been in allot of mounts, but as long as the mounter's knees are below my shoulders I can move my head. And I can also block my face with my elbows or forearms.

But there is a deeper argument here. I here allot of people say that the reason BJJ practitioners do so well is that they practice full contact, all of the time. And I whole heartedly agree.
But you can't really say with any legitimacy that: 1. As a grappler you are good at fighting for real because you practice your techniques for real and 2. You can perform techniques that you DO NOT PRACTICE AT ALL because those techniques are easy.

It's just an argument that I hear from strict grapplers that I just don't buy.
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[jjj]

Guns and knives are bad but I really dread pewter horned frog belt buckle bullies.

There is only one god, and his name is Rickson.

[KnightSabre]

Archangel,Shootfighting is real good,I would consider it a combination of 2 or more styles,so I would consider it a mixed martial art,and a **** good one to boot.I wouldn't say it was better or worse than BJJ though.Royce beat Ken Shamrock who's a Shoot fighter but then lost too Sakarabu of the same style.Mixing a style like Tai Boxing and BJJ is very similar to the Shootfighting package.

[Vankuen]

I study right now wing chun kuen and Brazilian jujutsu. I feel that both have their very (very!) strong merits, as well as their disadvantages.

Some of the things I recall seeing reading through the posts are in reference to BJJ being the best single art, or people shying away from wing chun because of the close quarters, and basic things of that nature.

I like Brazilian jujutsu very very much, as I realized its value the first day I was there. But one of the things that I did notice going into it was that in their techniques, they leave themselves wide open for being hit, as Ive shown them since Ive been there. I think that one of the reasons before that BJJ stylists and people like them kept winning so much was that people (the strikers) tried to play their opponents game instead of keeping to their own and making the other guys (the grapplers...) change. (That coupled with the fact that the strikers werent that great to begin with.)

Ive also found the opposite to be true with Wing chun and systems of that nature. Ive found that people in learning wing chun realize its simple and efficient theories and realize that after a short period are able to apply them successfully, and this in itself keeps them wanting more. (it even works when I grapple with my fellow BJJ buddies!) I loved wing chun because I saw its effectiveness, and felt it. I didnt care If I couldnt close the gap at first, a smart person will understand that things will not always come right away.

I do feel at this point that it is not well rounded as a technical sort, but it is in theories and concepts. One can take the concepts of wing chun and apply them in any art, in many ways. This is the adaptability of wing chun and what makes it so great. BJJ is alike in this fashion as well. I think that everyone who learns it applies it in "their" way. Which also makes for endless possibilities.

Both are great styles, but neither is greater than the other standing alone. (As neither one address's one or more of the areas of fighting.) This is my assessment.

"From one thing know ten thousand things" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[Vankuen]

Yes you can still win a fight if youre not a "complete" fighter, if you end it when your in your comfort zone.

and Yes - finger locks/breaks (tze chin na) works very well. Ive finished a wrestler using only two of his fingers and he was face first on the ground. (Im not saying I can do this to every wrestler or grappler - as I didnt even plan it in this occasion either...) You just have to know when to apply them and how. Just keep in mind that grapplers don't grapple shiat with all their fingers broken.

"From one thing know ten thousand things" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[KnightSabre]

I've allways said that Wing Chun was a good striking system and having done 2 and a half years of it myself I know this first hand.It's a pity my instructor left the country.I now use Tai Boxing coupled with my grappling and find it to be just as effective as Wing Chun as a striking art.

[reemul]

Kung fu was never defined as a strike only MA thats just what the grapplers labeled it because our philisophy on engagement is to stay mobile(on our feet). As it has been mentioned many times, Kung fu has grappling techniques, we just don't base our fighting around going to the ground and grabbing. Even in our system, a groin strike is not recognized as a fight stopper. But there are certain combonations of strikes that will stop someone on the spot, and I'm not talking about mystic crap or distrupting someones chi, although it can viewed as that. Fight stoppers in our system are a bit more heinous than a simple groin strike.