REAL san shou...

[Suntzu]

well actually it just a freestyle "sparring set"... but this should be what San shou looks like well... u know... with a lil more intensity :D
http://www.chanskungfu.com/videos/danda.wmv

[SanShou Guru]

same demo, different angle by round to music.

Round 1 (http://boston-kickboxing.com/pope1.htm)

Round 2 (http://boston-kickboxing.com/pope2.htm)

Round 3 (http://boston-kickboxing.com/pope3.htm)

It was the best demo in years and they did it on very short notice and no real preparation. They agreed not to kill each other and go with what was happening.

[Ford Prefect]

Cool stuff. So which one is Pope, Guru?

[SanShou Guru]

Pope is Red Shorts with Black Stripe.

[Ford Prefect]

He used to rassle right? Some of his throws were pretty brutal.

[fa_jing]

Excellent! :)

Much like what we did in sparring, only at a much higher level and with more emphasis on throws.

[Water Dragon]

Great Stuff!!

Needs more throwing :D

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Great Stuff!!

Needs more throwing :D b b but it looks like kickboxing :rolleyes: :D

[Water Dragon]

That's because the fighters did not want to cripple each other with their deadly technique. Therefore, they had no choice but to degrade into kickboxing.

[Shaolin-Do]

Blast the degrading to kickboxing...
D@mn this computer for not playing the vids....

[Suntzu]

D@mn those low-level martial artist... they need to sit in horse stance for nine days...

[Water Dragon]

Don't knock the horse stance. If you know how to do it and why it's a very practical exercise. Think hip throw and shoulder throw, both the throw itself and the counter ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

3 flats makes my arse hurt.

[Water Dragon]

What Master Shuai Chiao Teacher John Wang has to say about your low level kickboxing

Is that kickboxing or Sanshou? I though kickboxing does not allow any throwing? When did they change the kickboxing rules?

Good techniques in the fight. Good throws, good leg catching. Very high standard.

also

Found their school. Will tell Paul Gerand to contact them. May set up a school to school Shanshou tournament between Boston and Austin. I think they are on the right path. A good school.

http://www.boston-kickboxing.com/home2.htm

Larry: I have the same question for quite some time, Is it fun to compete like this? Why not? Very valuable experience for the rest of your life.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Shaolin-Do]

Plans to continue at the UTSA campus, yes?

You headed this way again anytime soon WD? BTW, ask pick axe bout driving around that d@mn far azz neighborhood for an hour....
:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

Thanks for posting that! My muscles are sore just watching.:(

[Suntzu]

H2O... don't forget Baltimore San Shou...

[Water Dragon]

Oh that's right! And Coach Ross too. It would be nice if SC got involved heavily in the San Shou scene.

[Shaolin-Do]

Hey WD, how long has the group here been training? (not including this summer...)

[ShaolinTiger00]

Don't knock the horse stance. If you know how to do it and why it's a very practical exercise. Think hip throw and shoulder throw, both the throw itself and the counter

I'm going to try to be as respectful and tactful as possible to WD, who usually offers sound advice, but I find the above paragraph to be very troubling.

While a horse stance may or may not be of value to your training and that is certainly been a matter of debate in the past..

It is certainly not the correct position to train, practice, or "endorse" for proper hip throwing techniques!!!! And I feel very adamant about this based on my instruction and my own expereinces in Wrestling, San Shou & Judo.

Why? Beause although you want your legs bent to get your hips beneath your opponents hip line, you do not want your base (feet)to be that wide!! You're begging to be countered with foot techniques and pickups and other counter throws. high crotch, single leg, tani otoshi, kouchi gari, etc..

You want your feet and knees UNDER your weight (and the weight of your opponent when you now pick him up in the air!). with your knees bent and this is very different from the horse stance.

And this is the same advice with shoulder throws as well.

Hindu squats with heels flat on the floor to limit the knee swinging out over the feet and a shoulder width base,are a great excersise and part of a basic drill in conditioning and exectution of these movements.

[Water Dragon]

hehe, we paractice our horse stance with the feet and knees together. If we do a "wide" horse stance, the feet are never more than hip width apart.

You should know me better than that ST :)

Here is a pic of a "wide" horse stance

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/clip/WaistCtrl.jpg

[ShaolinTiger00]

Well WD I guess we can then debate "What is the definition of a horse stance?" Because in my KF background it was a deep stance .

Just do a Google Image Search with "horse stance" typed in and you'll see hundreds of similar examples..


since you're there, type in "Ogoshi" and look at how close the thrower's feet are together (knees are often bent based upon height difference)


:)

*edit*

WD imho that "wide stance" is still way too wide for good throwing execution. But I'm assuming it's for training purposes.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


*edit*

WD imho that "wide stance" is still way too wide for good throwing execution. But I'm assuming it's for training purposes.

Agreed. Picture that stance with the feet and knees together, that's the 3 flats, which we train much more often. You also need to know why you should train horse for it to be useful.

Horse stance teaches a few things. First, it teaches a beginner to drop his hips low enough to get the needed leverage for a proper hip or shoulder throw. Secondly, it teaches the body to automatically take a certain position. When I go in fgor a hip throw I'll "hit" you with my @ss to knock you off balance. Third, it builds strength in a specific position. I can drop into a hip throw and hold you in position if I want for about 2 minutes without you being able to fight me. It gives me more control over the throw and more power.

That being said, stance work is a small part of a good workout. If you train it for 30 seconds to a minute a day you should be good. My own teacher recommends 3. (which will kill you)

The majority of training should be spent practicing throws and free wrestling.

-edit-
Another thing I should mention on horse. When doing a horse stance, it is very important that both of your feet be pointing straight ahead and parallel to each other. Why? go do a hip or shoulder throw, but splay your feet out at a 45 degree angle. Now, do the same throw with both feet pointing straight ahead. It's a small detail, but it makes a huge difference in balance,control, and power of the throw. Horse stance will teach your feet to be in the correct position after entering for the throw.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I like this. :)

If I could address your 3 points:

1. First, it teaches a beginner to drop his hips low enough to get the needed leverage for a proper hip or shoulder throw.

To that I would say, What is wrong with practicing the actual "fit-in"(what we called them in wrestling) of the throw over and over to build proper form? Isn't this a much more practical way? Are you familiar with the Judo term uchikomi? (the same thing essentially off balancing , moving into position, but not completeing the throw)

2. Secondly, it teaches the body to automatically take a certain position. When I go in fgor a hip throw I'll "hit" you with my @ss to knock you off balance.

If your opponent is not off balance by the time you enter for the throw - you'll never get it. never say never I suppose. maybe you'll "muscle" him across your back but if won't be pretty that's for sure.. I feel your movement and the bump from your hips, I back out with lots of defense!!

This goes for any throw really. you have to catch him in movement or purposely set him off balance (in some cases so that he may respond with his own push or pull that you will use against him. bottom line: your grip on him, whether it's the lapel and sleeve, double lapels, behind the neck and an overhook etc.. pulls him to you and your hips come in a fraction later before he can stop.

3. Third, it builds strength in a specific position. I can drop into a hip throw and hold you in position if I want for about 2 minutes without you being able to fight me. It gives me more control over the throw and more power.

There is very little strength in actual throwing. that's the great thing about it. Throwing is all about leverage and physics (just like ground work) proper position and exectution.
Strength & speed play the factors in the off balancing!!
Holding someone in a throw doesn't really serve much purpose.. if you can't explode into that throw! Why practice holding someone there? Your throw should take a 1/2 second tops and requires minimum effort. That time could be better spent on other drills.

This is a good example of like minded people with different educations & training methods.

[Water Dragon]

To that I would say, What is wrong with practicing the actual "fit-in"(what we called them in wrestling) of the throw over and over to build proper form? Isn't this a much more practical way? Are you familiar with the Judo term uchikomi? (the same thing essentially off balancing , moving into position, but not completeing the throw)

We do train this way. But we also have the horse stance which is to be trained when you do not have a partner available. The difference is that once we set the throw, we will complete it.

If your opponent is not off balance by the time you enter for the throw - you'll never get it. never say never I suppose. maybe you'll "muscle" him across your back but if won't be pretty that's for sure.. I feel your movement and the bump from your hips, I back out with lots of defense!!

This goes for any throw really. you have to catch him in movement or purposely set him off balance (in some cases so that he may respond with his own push or pull that you will use against him. bottom line: your grip on him, whether it's the lapel and sleeve, double lapels, behind the neck and an overhook etc.. pulls him to you and your hips come in a fraction later before he can stop.

Hmmm, this may be a difference in technique, I'm not sure. When performing the hip throw in SC there is no gi. I will step in with my right foot and then swing my left foot behind it to turn into you (a stealing step) As I am turning, my right arm will hug you tightly and my left hand will grab your right arm snugly. A split second later, I drop into horse. From this position, I am hugging you tightly while pulling on your arm to pull you over my structure. This is a stable position. To get the throw, I pull on your right arm and drive up strongly with my knees while bowing over. You should get the idea. The harder I can hit you with my butt, the easier I can break your structure and the safer I am. Don't forget that this is SC, so you can hit me while I'm going for the throw.

There is very little strength in actual throwing. that's the great thing about it. Throwing is all about leverage and physics (just like ground work) proper position and exectution.
Strength & speed play the factors in the off balancing!!
Holding someone in a throw doesn't really serve much purpose.. if you can't explode into that throw! Why practice holding someone there? Your throw should take a 1/2 second tops and requires minimum effort. That time could be better spent on other drills.

You are correct. But it does take trength to hold the correct position with another person's weight on you. Otherwise, how will you be able to get the power to slam them on the throw. You must have perfect control of your opponenet throughout the entire throw if you want to be able to debilitate them. When doing hip throw, I can set you down lightly, or slam you down hard, because I have good structure.

[Water Dragon]

Where is Sevenstar? He's done some SC and does Judo. I know he's trained 3 flats. What's your insight here?

[fa_jing]

3 minutes does not seem to be too much time out of your day to put into something!

Horse is an uncomfortable position, stretches your hips and ankles, etc. Gives you more strength out of the bottom position. Trains you psychologically to sink under duress instead of raise up, which is the natural response.

Actually I know a bit about WD's training, you practice some other stances as much as you do this one - like you mentioned, the three flats, and the one where you hold the kick-back position. and others, like the stuff you were talking about in your training post. To me it's about neurological conditioning of the muscles. Dynamically move through the full actual motions, statically hold the most extreme positions that you will be in. WD spends more time tossing his heavy bag than he does in horse stance.

Nowadays I finish up some of my workouts by holding a kettlebell in both hands as I hold a horse stance. I hit my goal of a certain degree of exhaustion faster and go through less torture than a bodyweight horse stance hold.

[SifuAbel]

They had nice exchanges.

They could have a bit more retraction and snap in their kicking. Its too easy to grab a leg that extends then goes dead.

Also, they tend to fall over each other a bit too much on their advances. Maybe they need some more stance work? :D

A lot of the hand striking was "you then me back and forth", not a lot of counterstriking. Or it was "I'll hit you while you hit me and lets see what happens".

I hope this can be discussed without it being some stupid pride war.

Answers like "your mother eats kitty litter from an old shoe your grand pa used to wear." Are not welcome, funny, but not welcome. :rolleyes:

[SanShou Guru]

Sifu the simple response is;
it was a demo so they wanted to be safe and clean but still push the level.

[SifuAbel]

It could have been cleaner.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Where is Sevenstar? He's done some SC and does Judo. I know he's trained 3 flats. What's your insight here?

Three flats is great training for the position of a shoulder throw. You can't always do uchikomi (lack of a partner) and you may not always have access to a cable or pulley. I routinely tain my stances, and then do shadow training when I don't have a parntner and nothing to wrap my cable around.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon

We do train this way. But we also have the horse stance which is to be trained when you do not have a partner available. The difference is that once we set the throw, we will complete it.

In judo, we'll complete the throw also, but you can get more reps in a shorter span of time if you don't throw after every one. So, you may fit in for the first 9 reps and throw on every 10th, for example.


Hmmm, this may be a difference in technique, I'm not sure. When performing the hip throw in SC there is no gi. I will step in with my right foot and then swing my left foot behind it to turn into you (a stealing step) As I am turning, my right arm will hug you tightly and my left hand will grab your right arm snugly.

Right here is where you run into the technique difference. IN SC, that stealing step is there. In judo, you turn into the guy, but it's not the same thing. In judo, the off balance comes when you pull the guy's arm and begin to step into him.

Don't forget that this is SC, so you can hit me while I'm going for the throw.

That's the other style difference.

You are correct. But it does take trength to hold the correct position with another person's weight on you. Otherwise, how will you be able to get the power to slam them on the throw. You must have perfect control of your opponenet throughout the entire throw if you want to be able to debilitate them. When doing hip throw, I can set you down lightly, or slam you down hard, because I have good structure.

Good point. I can think of several instances where someone has tried to get me with a one or two handed shoulder throw and fell helplessly under my weight (my sinking chi :D )

[SevenStar]

TTT for WD

[Water Dragon]

We've been playing with the fit ins. It's a good idea, I like it. Especially since we have no mat.

I've also combined the Free Style Push hands from Taiji with the Shuai Chiao. So in essence, we now have half speed free wrestling, kinda like half speed rolling. If it works, we may be able to work standing locks into a full contact situation. I'm not sure about that yet though.

[SevenStar]

sounds good. What happened to that old crash pad? Did you toss it?

[Water Dragon]

LOL. The "crash pad" you are talking about was just some old carpet padding that the neighbor across the alley threw out like two days before you came over. I snuck over and stole it the night before you came. I chucked that right after you left.

[SevenStar]

lol, I don't know whether to be happy that you went through the trouble, or upset cuz you may have thought I couldn't take it...

[Mutant]

some really amazing san shou at the combat zone fights at the dog-track last night in the boston area.

if you liked albert pope's demo clips, you would really appreciate his performance last night. he fought ian morgan, an excellent fighter from lkfmdc's nykk school. they put on quite a perfomance, with pope taking the unanimous decision, by executing some beautiful throws, kicks, hands, etc. i think pope had a fan club amoung the mostly mma, mauy thai and kickboxing crowd, by the end of his fight.

mike norman had a very good san shou match against james battle, a tough fighter also from lkfmdc's gym. great techniques all around, he also won by decision. and derek szmyt fought san shou against a mauy thai fighter (under mauy thai rules) and came out strong, landing leg kicks and then landing a brutal round kick to the head that knocked the guy to the canvas, much to the surprise of the crowd. soon after, however, the round was stopped due to a gear dispute, and then the muay thai fighter refused to continue because he couldnt wear his 'thai beads' on his arm, but it looked like he punked out to save face because derek was bringing it to him hard; so derek won by default.

all in all, the san shou fights were the most exciting and technical fights of the night and i think everyone in the crowd came away with a real appreciation and respect for san shou. i'm sure there will be some great new web clips from these bouts posted in the near future.