JMA versus CMA, why are they different?

[PHILBERT]

I'm bored, so I got thinking before and thought of something. Why is it that Japanese Martial Arts and Chinese Martial Arts are so different? At least in striking and footwork? It is said Japanese/Okinawan arts of Karate are said to come fron Ngo Cho Kun and White Crane, 2 Chinese styles, yet Karate seems to have a very linear, direct approach verus Chinese arts which have more circular.

How can it be that a circular art is modified over a few centuries in another country into a linear art, yet remains a circular art in the country it originated? If you say "Tradition", wouldn't the tradition of been taught to the Japanese when they first learned hand to hand combat from the Chinese? So why go against tradition and change it to be linear?

Also, why wasn't the more "mystic" stuff of Chinese arts, such as QiGong, Iron Palm, taught in Japanese arts? Sure Aikido has Ki, or chi, but Karate really doesn't teach QiGong in its training. Why is that?

I'm think it's time for bed.

[SevenStar]

1. I dunno about the whole linear thing - one of the most fluid guys I knows is a Japanese friend of mine who was born in and trained in Kumamoto, Japan.

- You gotta remember though, people are gonna customize their style to suit themselves. It's possible that these early karateka thought that a more linear approach suited them better. Or, perhaps they just wanted to add more of a "Japanese fleair" to the art, no different from the way TKD was changed from it's original, karate-like form.

- Okinawan fighting came from China, but didn't the Japanese style come from Okinawa? That means that it not only had plenty of time to change, but also to be molded through different cultures and students.

2. There is some ki training in karate. The Sanchin kata is a prime example. It doesn't seem to be emphasized as much as in CMA though - my speculation there is that JMA is very much an "external" style. perhaps things like makiwara training could be likened to forms of hard qigong.

'Megapoint good probably give some good insight in this thread.

[joedoe]

The first 2 forms in Ngor Chor are fairly linear, so I can see that. I can also see the relationship with the Southern Tai Tzu that influences Ngor Chor and JMA.

Having said all that, from what I have been told the Okinawan arts are still not as linear as their Japanese derivatives, so maybe it also has something to do with Japanese fighting philosophies.

[Oso]

I wouldn't say linear either.

In kung fu I was taught bigger circles early with the goal of making the circles smaller as I got better at the movement. Big circles are fine for generating power but obviously waist time. Beginning students haven't developed the fine body mechanics (fajing) to generate the same power in a smaller circle.

I have some experience training with a group of 3rd, 4th and 5th degree black belts and those guys did NOT move in straight lines. However, their lower ranks did. My observation is that they take a path from purely linear, or nearly so, to about the same size circle as I think in.

Why? Well, how bout this theory?

The old Okinawans got taught higher end stuff first.

Chances are they had to have had some other, maybe more rudimentary, form of ma that covered their basics. And, whatever NCK or WC master passed the information on to them just taught them advanced stuff. Then, when the Okinawans needed to pass it on to perpetuate it they had to reverse engineer it in order to teach novices and went with straighter lines first.

or maybe I should have a second cup of coffee....

[chen zhen]

CMA more circular? I thought u were a WC'er.;)

[fragbot]

but I've wondered about this as well, so I've done a tiny bit of research on it.

For the Japanese karate styles, it appears kendo provided a big influence on the systems. Specifically, it provided the linear emphasis you see today.

Assumption: linear attacks are less complex than circular attacks. With this assumption in mind, read my conjecture:

1) If you learn part of a system, you'll train with what you know. In a system with linear and circular techniques, you're likely to learn straight-forward material first.

2) If you're from a militaristic culture, use militaristic teaching methods and organizations, linear techniques are easily organized and trained.

Like I said, it's conjecture. . .

As an aside, I don't like Japanese karate all that much. However, I do like the Okinawan flavors I've seen. They appear much more well-rounded.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I think from a cultural point of of view they both have inflected upon them different philosophy. The direct and often terse regimes of Zen is particular to Japan and hence influences. A famous saying I heard once was Zen is for Samurai's and neurotics. Not labelling all Japanese neurotics but its that fast immediate linear approach I suppose.
Chinese has the immediate influence of Taoism and later on Buddhism which is slower longer more rounded I suppose.
It takes its time yet arrives there all the same but with power from weakness.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fragbot

As an aside, I don't like Japanese karate all that much. However, I do like the Okinawan flavors I've seen. They appear much more well-rounded.

What's your definition of well rounded?

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by chen zhen
CMA more circular? I thought u were a WC'er.;)

I am :p. I should have said with the exception of Wing Chun. Just that I looked at some CLF, Hung Gar, Mantis, Xingyi and Baguazhang video clips, then some Karate video clips a few days ago and noticed that those I saw in CMA were more circular in hand techniques.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Oso
...
Why? Well, how bout this theory?

The old Okinawans got taught higher end stuff first.

Chances are they had to have had some other, maybe more rudimentary, form of ma that covered their basics. And, whatever NCK or WC master passed the information on to them just taught them advanced stuff. Then, when the Okinawans needed to pass it on to perpetuate it they had to reverse engineer it in order to teach novices and went with straighter lines first.

or maybe I should have a second cup of coffee....

I would disagree with your theory. I cannot imagine a CMA teacher teaching anyone the higher end stuff first, let alone a non-Chinese.

Based on your theory, what I would guess is that they were taught in a less linear fashion but saw the seniors using more linear moves (smaller circles). Then when they went away to practice they decided that the linear moves were more advanced and so copied them, but possibly missing out on the interim steps of making the circular moves smaller, and just doing linear moves.

Or I could be talking out of my arse :D

[Oso]

good thing about theories is they can't be proven;)

it was just a thought.

mostly based on the idea that I can't believe that the okinawan islands were devoid of martial arts prior to the infusion of cma.




Based on your theory, what I would guess is that they were taught in a less linear fashion but saw the seniors using more linear moves (smaller circles). Then when they went away to practice they decided that the linear moves were more advanced and so copied them, but possibly missing out on the interim steps of making the circular moves smaller, and just doing linear moves.

but, ime, most basic karate stuff is very linear but graduates to larger circles, not big circles mind you but larger than the straight line stuff.

to follow your line of logic above they would be teaching the more linear/smaller circle stuff as advanced material and the larger circle stuff they first learned as basics.

I think.


(there is this little Mexican place 3 doors down from the school. Monday nights is margarita night after class.) ;)

[Oso]

and listen to us...

what the fudge do a bunch of cma stylist know about jma ????

LOL

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Oso
and listen to us...

what the fudge do a bunch of cma stylist know about jma ????

LOL

But you forget - as CMA practitioners, we know everything there is to know about any MA :D

[Oso]

oh yea, I forgot for a second...

I have gotten my azz beat by some pretty high ranked karate guys, that's gotta count for sumpin.

time for bed...

[PHILBERT]

Because all martial arts in the world come from China somehow, someway.
:rolleyes:

[rogue]

what the fudge do a bunch of cma stylist know about jma ???? Same thing as the rest of us, killing time online.

Carefull you guys mixing in the Okinawan styles willy nilly with the Japanese.

BTW, do any CMA have a front and/or back stance like Shotokan?

[Vash]

For the Japanese karate/Okinawan toudi; the Japanese styles of karate were a purposefully modified version of Shorinryu, heavily influenced by the arts already present (kendo, etc). The heavy "linear" content of these (I am only thinking of Shotokan and Japanese Goju-ryu here) was probably caused by the nigh-militaristic method of instruction common to Japan (please don't flame me; it's late, I'm not trying to make generalizations. I've had my arse handed to me by a Ni Dan Shotokanka [35yrs in the style]).

The Okinawan toudi seems to be a modifcation to the already present di (or te) by way of the White Crane and Monk Fist systems.

As for the lack of internal work, heck if I know. Most of the Okinawan instructors of note were a bit higher up on the social ladder, so "lack of opportunity" or it being "unnecessary" make bad excuses.

But, what do I know? This is all just conjecture, anyways.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by rogue
Same thing as the rest of us, killing time online.

Carefull you guys mixing in the Okinawan styles willy nilly with the Japanese.

BTW, do any CMA have a front and/or back stance like Shotokan?

If I am picturing the stances correctly, then yes at least one does.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
Same thing as the rest of us, killing time online.

Carefull you guys mixing in the Okinawan styles willy nilly with the Japanese.

BTW, do any CMA have a front and/or back stance like Shotokan?

I know at least some styles have the bow and arrow stance, and the 60/40 stance, which is essentially the same thing.

[shaolinboxer]

I think the main difference is JMA is flavored with teriyaki sauce, and CMA is either in peanut oil or sweet n sour sauce.

[jimbob]

Okinawa absorbed many fighting traditions from China in a very haphazard non systematized manner. Who can tell how much of which particular systems were passed on to the locals and in what sort of manner this happened? Unfortunately today, even most of the Okinawan karate has been highly Japanized.

Karate was brought to Japan primarily as a discipline to encourage nationalistic spirit and physical culture - hence the adoption of judo like rank and uniform. The original and true self defense application was removed prior to it entering the education system. These students graduated, went to university, started teaching and all of a sudden you have something that is suited to "tag" style sporting contests with little true self defense application (no qinna, no tinhsueh, no contact, no real understanding of the applications of the forms).

The good japanese are amazing at what they do, but it's very far removed from original Okinawan practices.

There is actually quite a strong movement afoot at the moment to bring back to karate the bigger picture that has been missing for so long. Of course, this is ****ing off a lot of the "traditionalists" and it seems as though the main people trying to do this are not Japanese, which for some folks seems to somehow mean they know nothing.

It's a shame.

[Mr Punch]

Shaolinboxer is correct.




I think the initial supposition is incorrect.
There are many linear and circular arts from both countries. And of course, many aspects of linearity in circular arts and circularity in linear arts. There are only so many ways the body can move. And in general, the Japanese and Chinese having shorter arms and legs, they neither of them can move so many ways.

Ahem :o .


Vash also appear to be sneaking up on the correct, if not actually taking a hold of it and scaring it out of its tiny mind. Kendo for example, is a lot more linear than the old-school sword aspects of kobudo: partly due to its sport aspect (sacrificing technique for speed), and partly due to the necessity of teaching it en masse to school kids and the like... silly though it may sounds, I think it's quicker and easier to teach a linear art than a circular.

The other thing to bear in mind is that an ikkyu in kendo is taught big circular motions for understanding energy generation, as are lower kyu grades in aiki and the like, whereas a shodan is expected to do the movements faster and with more linearity for directness. Not saying I agree, but sometimes it makes sense, and to look at a higher level practitioner of a truly Japanese art, often you are seeing straight lines where the practitioner is feeling circles.

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by berserker
so i think the best ways to see the difference is to watch a lot of japanese ad chinese movies and see how they beat each other up.


:rolleyes: Nonsense. Chinese actors play the Japanese portrayed in most Chinese movies, and Japanese actors play the Chinese portrayed in most Japanese movies. You can not seriously believe that you can learn anything about the real differences between Japanese and Chinese martial arts by watching movies?

[Surferdude]

Why is it so different? Because the japanese didn't want to be like the chinese...They felt a very great surge of nationalism when karate was brought over by various masters.

Why so linear? Because the quickest way between one point is a straight line,it makes striking quicker and only one attack is need to stop your opponent.

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by berserker
did i miss anything?

only the point

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Surferdude
Why is it so different? Because the japanese didn't want to be like the chinese...They felt a very great surge of nationalism when karate was brought over by various masters.

Why so linear? Because the quickest way between one point is a straight line,it makes striking quicker and only one attack is need to stop your opponent.

Please tell me you don't believe that you can stop your opponent with one hit?

[Oso]

Lone Wolf and Cub I rocked. The rest of the series slowly, but inevitably, grinds it's way into the realm of the worst Kung Fu Theatre type of film.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Surferdude
Why is it so different? Because the japanese didn't want to be like the chinese...They felt a very great surge of nationalism when karate was brought over by various masters.

Why so linear? Because the quickest way between one point is a straight line,it makes striking quicker and only one attack is need to stop your opponent.

While I disagree with the one hit thing, if Japanese changed it because the fastest way between 2 points is a straight line, why didn't the Chinese do that to all systems and thus defeating the circular movements?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by PHILBERT


While I disagree with the one hit thing, if Japanese changed it because the fastest way between 2 points is a straight line, why didn't the Chinese do that to all systems and thus defeating the circular movements? They did.
It's called Wing Chun and it defeats all!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[PHILBERT]

I said ALL SYSTEMS, not the best. :D

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by berserker

Well there's only one of those isnt here?

... is that meant to be a Zen riddle of some sort?