Sex and Chi

[Miles Teg]

Here is part of an interview I read at Chinafrom the inside featuring MR.MA CHUANXU a Bagua Practitioner . …………………. (thanks for directing me to the site Laughing Cow – some good reading to pass the time at work …oops! I mean my free time)

JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open. Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?

MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma, who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return home even once during that time.
Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle.

JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then...

MR.MA: There is not a big problem with practice in Middle Basin (Zhong Pan), you can still get Internal Skill. However once you decide to practice Lower Basin you have to stop any sexual activity.

JS: What if one decides to practice in Lower Basin without fulfilling that requirement?

MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease. This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice - weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to make the decision to become like a monk for three years...

JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)?

MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years, Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem.

JS: What do you mean by ruining the skill?

MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday, without even one day of rest.

JS: But in this way you did not sleep enough. You did not have enough rest.

MR.MA: Correct practice is better than sleep. What you practice is Internal Skill, it nourishes your body.

JS: You are almost 70 now. Do you still practice everyday?

MR.MA: I get up early in the morning and practice for three hours, everyday. (Mr.Ma's wife added that he does it everyday no matter what the weather is, even on Chinese New Year, the most important festival in China)

JS: Back in the 1960s did you practice any other exercises apart from walking in a circle? Some forms of sitting meditation or standing pole (Zhan Zhuang)?

MR.MA: Sitting or standing meditation are for Neigong only. Walking practice is also called "Moving Pole" (Huo Zhuang/Xing Zhuang) and has very important advantage - it develops both Waigong (External Practice) and Neigong at the same time. When you walk in a circle, you nourish your Internal Qi every minute, you build it stronger and stronger. That's why walking in a circle is so important and at the same time so difficult to understand.

JS: Did you learn and "Light Skill" (Qing Gong) as well?

MR.MA: Walking in a circle develops "Light Skill". Once you reach a certain level you are able to walk without touching the ground.

JS: How is that possible?

MR.MA: The idea is to use your Dantian, waist, to move. I'm sitting here right now. If you want to attack me I can move fast forward without using legs, but by straightening the waist. (Mr.Ma made a demonstration - from a sitting position he was able to move fast very far forward before he touched the floor with his legs).

JS: It all sounds and looks very mysterious...

MR.MA: It is not mysterious at all, it's just a matter of skill, of hard practice.


What are your thoughts on this? It certainly seems excessive. I don’t know if I could handle that. On the other hand boxers don’t have sex for months before a fight so there must be something in it. Has anyone ever tried an approach like this? If so what were the effects?

[Laughing Cow]

Miles.

I don't study bagua but I have heard this from a variety of sources.

As for Sex and Chi, we are told in my kwoon(TJQ) not to do certain Qi-gong unless atleast 3 days have passed since we last had sex.
I have often heard that it takes 3 days for your body to recover from sex.

Actually we got a long list of reuqirements for some, which makes it tough to do them everyday. ;)

So if you want to become good less/no jiggles with the Wife/GF.

OTOH, most of the masters of old were blessed with quiet a bit of off-spring and considering the child-death rate than. Hmmmm.

Seeya.

[Brad]

Superstition :P

[Repulsive Monkey]

You are both right and wrong about it. Your body does NOT take 3 days to recover from sex and its not your Qi which dissipates its your Jing.
Depending on your age, for example if you're in your twenties then, your body only takes 24 hours to recvoer if you're in your 60's it can take at least a week to recover from Jing dissipation.

Giving up sex is ignorant because it isn't sex which depletes it its ejaculation so one can modify ones sex to reduce the frequency of it so as to maintin healthy Jing maintainance.

[Miles Teg]

Laughing Cow
Hmmm, got to wonder if they are practicing what they are preaching. I guess it is also true on a more physical realm as well......as babies are probably the biggest suckers of chi ever! Well they make you tired anyway.


Repulsive Monkey says:
[Giving up sex is ignorant because it isn't sex which depletes it its ejaculation so one can modify ones sex to reduce the frequency of it so as to maintin healthy Jing maintainance.:]

Could that be why I was so tired as a teenager? (Im serious)
I was always sleeping, I think I was going for a world record.....of course the excessive pot probably didnt help.

Also the next obvious question now is if it is about ejaculation then women should be in the clear right? I guess most women have to go through child birth at some point in their lives though.



Last thing!
Isnt this all just hear-say. I mean I can buy that there is proabably alot in this but if it gets to the point where people say {its 24 hours not 3 months} etc. it makes you wonder how accurate this type of info can be. How can it be proven? What are we going on here? How do you know how long it should take? If different internalists say different things then it cant be standard. It also cant be measured easily. Or is it a matter of getting to such a high level that one can feel for ones self how long it takes to recover?

[Ray Pina]

"Once every three months isn't a problem.":eek:

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm.....

If we were talking about car batteries and not the human body then I might believe this.

You'd use up the juice from the battery and then you have to charge it up.

But Chi is NOT electrical energy. It is a vague concept which is equated to overall health and vigor.

Humans were designed to have sexual intercourse. Simply look between your legs if you don't believe me.

In addition we were designed to have sex for pleasure as well as for procreation.

Holding in your ejaculate is not a natural body process.

The biggest argument I think for not indulging in sexual excess is that you tend to lose focus and drive that could be further devoted to your MA training.

Other than that I think it is a bunch of hocus pocus and we should strive to have a healthy and BALANCED sex life.

"MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk."

This teacher sites this annecdotal story about too much sex leading to problems later on. Is he a doctor? Could it be that these problems are totally unrelated to sex?

We don't know because this annecdotal not scientific.

[Ray Pina]

I've always wondered about the "wet dream" factor.

[[Censored]]

Holding in your ejaculate is not a natural body process.

The natural cycle is to create offspring, and die soon afterwards having fulfilled your purpose. The old documents often refer to reversing the cycle. How else do you think your hair can change from gray to black again? ;)

[BAI HE]

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

Leave the chi, take the sex.

[Fu-Pow]

"How else do you think your hair can change from gray to black again?"

"Just for men" hair dye.

Magical isn't it?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Also the next obvious question now is if it is about ejaculation then women should be in the clear right? I guess most women have to go through child birth at some point in their lives though.

AFAIK, as I know women loose theirs during the period.

Either way it seems to be linked with certain fluids/tissues leaving the body and needing to be replaced.
(Hormone related??)

Of course this opens up the next question, is it still feasable and needful to go through this type of training in a modern world?

Seeya.

[Brad]

Of course this opens up the next question, is it still feasable and needful to go through this type of training in a modern world?
No. There's no edvidence to support any of this. The only way I see that giving up sex could help your martial arts training is that you'd have more time to devote to your training, perhaps more mentally focused(though I know some people whom this would have the opposite effect on ;) ), and you wouldn't be worn out from non martial arts exercise :P The negative side affect would be a possible increased risk of cancer(acording to a study talked about in the newspaper not to long ago) ;-)

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
"How else do you think your hair can change from gray to black again?"

"Just for men" hair dye.

Magical isn't it?



Read this quote:

"Oh, yes, I could change my hair from grey to black with chi kung...hehehe...but I'll use Hair dye...faster and cheaper!"

Master Deng Fuxing, my sifu.

[Water Dragon]

This thread has caught the Gay.

[Repulsive Monkey]

For women from TCM perpsective Jing gets depleted through having too many children with very little gaps between them, but NOT from climaxing like it does for men.

There is no hocus pocus about any of this, its obvious that the people saying this have precious little undertsanding of TCM and in fact some of the obvious correlations ithas with TWM.

Grey hair can berejuvenated through Taoist practises but you're right hair dye is quicker and cheaper in the short term.

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
[B]For women from TCM perpsective Jing gets depleted through having too many children with very little gaps between them, but NOT from climaxing like it does for men.

There is no hocus pocus about any of this,

***There is a lot of hocus pocus in TCM. It's theoretical foundations are whacked because it's based on metaphysics and not direct physical observation. The Chinese wouldn't even cut up dead bodies to correctly define organs.

So they created this whole incorrect map of the body based on function rather than on physical location.

Practices in TCM that have no validity are slowly being weeded out by the scientific method. Practices that do have validity are usually explainable by modern science or will be one day.

It's not to say that TCM doesn't work it's just the WHY it works is not quite right.

Practices like Semen Retention are tied in with Chinese hang ups about sex. So its difficult to determine if this practice is really beneficial or it is just an extension of cultural biases.

its obvious that the people saying this have precious little undertsanding of TCM and in fact some of the obvious correlations ithas with TWM.

***That's your opinion.

Grey hair can berejuvenated through Taoist practises but you're right hair dye is quicker and cheaper in the short term.

***Turning your hair from grey to black is hocus pocus. It's like saying you can reverse aging. While you can slow aging (ie age "gracefully") you can not reverse it. It is a physical impossibility.

[[Censored]]

There is a lot of hocus pocus in TCM. It's theoretical foundations are whacked because it's based on metaphysics and not direct physical observation.
It is based on direct observation. That doesn't mean that every person can perceive it by birthright.

The Chinese wouldn't even cut up dead bodies to correctly define organs.
When was the last time you put your hand on the stove, just to check that it still gets hot? LOL.

Practices like Semen Retention are tied in with Chinese hang ups about sex. So its difficult to determine if this practice is really beneficial or it is just an extension of cultural biases.
What difficulty? Do it yourself and make a direct physical observation...if you are able! :D

[Golden Arms]

I think the saying in WESTERN boxing "women make weak legs" pretty much sums it up. It does have an effect, and I am reasonably certain that anyone that will argue against that does not get into it with a mean, live, and resisting opponent on a regular basis. Mainly because its effects are pretty easy to feel. The why on the other hand..that is arguable..but for me..it doesnt really matter.

[IronFist]

There is a lot of crazy stuff circulating around. I have two examples:

1. Some Iron Palm masters say that if you do not practice at exactly the same time every day down to the minute you will lose your skill. So, I wonder how, hundreds of years ago, people knew exactly when it was the same time every day. There was no way anyone could have known "hey, it's exactly 8:00am now, time to start my iron palm practice." before clocks were invented.

2. The whole "blowing your load makes you lose chi and makes all your practice wasted" thing. Um, guess what guys. If you don't nut every so often, your body does it for you when you sleep. Do you know why? Because it's natural, and because you're SUPPOSED to do it.

So, there's no way anyone, ESPECIALLY young guys, could have held it in for much time at all, much less 100 days or three years :eek: !!!

What do you think?

Also, in his book "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master," Glenn Morris was doing all sorts of chi kung and kundalini stuff, and in his words he was married and "anything but celibate" or something like that. He said he was "hornier than a three p.eckered owl" or something along those lines.

IronFist

note - you can't say p e c k e r here. Haha, silly censors!

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by [Censored] [i]Practices like Semen Retention are tied in with Chinese hang ups about sex. So its difficult to determine if this practice is really beneficial or it is just an extension of cultural biases.


What sexual hangups??

Most of the strict rules and taboos are fairly new, check some of the old pillow books, statues and similar.

Than head also over to Korea, and Japan and visit some of now rarely celebrated fertility Festivals where HUUGE phalluses and similar are carried around town, etc.

100yrs ago the were a lot less hang-ups than there are today.

And many Koreans, Japanese and Chinese are rediscovering the "lost" knowledge and art-objects.

One country that is notoriously hung-up about sex and it's practices I think is the USA, read recently an article about trials and punishment for offenders dating back froma few centuries ago to the 1930's.

Cheers.

[[Censored]]

Um, guess what guys. If you don't nut every so often, your body does it for you when you sleep. Do you know why?

Not only do I know why, I know how to stop it. But I dare not disturb your natural routines! :D

What do you think?

Sweet dreams, cupcakes!

[IronFist]

3 Questions:

1. Why, since you said you know why. I have my theories, but they're western medicine. What are yours?

2. How would you stop it? Just curious cuz sex dreams can be messy.

3. Who's that thing in you avatar? I saw a cartoon with him in it once. They were like talking to these 2-dimensional beings from a video game or something and one of them shot this little black square from a gun and it moved really slow. It was like a year ago so I don't remember really, but I remember laughing my ass off.

IronFist

[bodhitree]

" How would you stop it? Just curious cuz sex dreams can be messy. " Iron Fist

sex without ejeculation/ strong perineum pulling the energy upward in the small heaven circulation.

THERE IS NO NEED TO BE CELLIBENT EJECULATION FREE SEX IS MORE PLEASUREABLE,LASTS LONGER, AND THE ORGASM GOES THROUGH YOUR WHOLE BODY LIKE A F**KING TITAL WAVE

try it
youll see!

[IronFist]

dude i'm talking about stopping it while you're sleeping.

I've heard you can always push up on your perennium<sp> during sex when you're about to blow, but I heard that's REALLY bad for you.

IronFist

[Repulsive Monkey]

I think its obvious from your the Chinese have hang-ups about sex that your amazing generalisations go down in history as almost runs for most coveted trolls.

[RAF]

Hang ups about sex? With a population of 1.3 billion, hmm, someone surely likes making love. Takes two to tango and they seem to go back to the well quite a bit LOL.

Hang ups? I don't think so. Maybe they aren't so obsessed with it. Rather than watching and talking about, they do it. Besides, martial arts and artists aren't the center stage in China. How many "how to"sex books can you write? Hey, how about those Chinese Jerry Springer shows?

Don't be so uncritical and all-accepting of the tenets of Western Science and its own hidden metaphysical agenda: Saviours of the World in the White Lab Coat. Where is BF Skinner when I need him?

The bookworms have their own hangups and limitations.

"it has become a truism by now that scientists are not mere knowledge acquisition machines; they are guided by emotion and intuition as we as by cold reason and calculation. Scientists are rarely so human. I have found, so at the mercy of their fears and desires, as when they are confronting the limits of knowledge.

THE GREATEST SCIENTISTS WANT, ABOVE ALL, TO DISCOVER TRUTHS ABOUT NATURE (IN ADDITION TO ACQUIRING GLORY, GRANTS AND TENURE AND IMPROVING THE LOT OF MANKIND): THEY WANT TO KNOW.

They hope (subjective faith, wishing it were so) and trust that the truth is attainable, not merely an ideal or asymptote, which they eternally approach. They also believe, as I do, that the quest for knowledge is by far the noblest and most meaningful of all human activities. p. 5

The most common strategy of the strong scientist is to point to all the shortcomings of current scientific knowledge, to all the questions left unanswering given the limitations of human science:

How, exactly was the universe created?
Could our universe be justone of an infinite number of universes?
Could quarks and electrons be composed of stillsmall particulars, ad infinitium?
What does quantum mechanics really mean?
(MOST QUESTIONS CONCERNING MEANING CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED IRONICALLY, AS LITERARY CRITICS KNOW).
Biology has its own slew of insoluble riddles.
How, exactly, did life begin on earth?
Just how inevitable was life's origin and its subsequent history?
(p. 7)

The End of Science: Facing the Limits of Knowledge in the Twilight of the Scientifc Age, John Horgan (former senior writer at Scientific American).

Scientists are 21st Century Eunuchs dressed in Daoist Drag. They seek immortality through the mythology of their unbiased genetic research similar to what ancient Chinese emperors sought.

Human nature is human nature, no matter how you dress it up! I love them in their quasi-objective, born again stances, as if they have transcended their own humanness.
LOL

You ought to read the Skeptical Inquirer to really see how kranked up they are about TCM. LOL

Its all pretty funny.

[TonyM.]

You said B.F. Skinner. That's a HUGE swear in my book!:p
And like Nazis and the KKK, neobehaviorism just won't die and go away.:(

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RAF
[B]Hang ups about sex? With a population of 1.3 billion, hmm, someone surely likes making love. Takes two to tango and they seem to go back to the well quite a bit LOL.

***My term about Hang ups refers to Semen Retention. In my mind it is a "hang up" to think that your semen have some kind of "vital" force. We will come back to the word "vital" in this post.


Don't be so uncritical and all-accepting of the tenets of Western Science and its own hidden metaphysical agenda: Saviours of the World in the White Lab Coat. Where is BF Skinner when I need him?

***How 'bout don't pigeon hole me. Science is a tool. But one among many.

The bookworms have their own hangups and limitations.

***No...really...repressed scientists?

"it has become a truism by now that scientists are not mere knowledge acquisition machines; they are guided by emotion and intuition as we as by cold reason and calculation. Scientists are rarely so human. I have found, so at the mercy of their fears and desires, as when they are confronting the limits of knowledge.

***Scientists are obviously "inspired" by "divine" bouts of creativity. That's where all theories start. But the difference between Science and Not Science is that the theories are put under the micrscope of logic and experimentation.


THE GREATEST SCIENTISTS WANT, ABOVE ALL, TO DISCOVER TRUTHS ABOUT NATURE (IN ADDITION TO ACQUIRING GLORY, GRANTS AND TENURE AND IMPROVING THE LOT OF MANKIND): THEY WANT TO KNOW.

They hope (subjective faith, wishing it were so) and trust that the truth is attainable, not merely an ideal or asymptote, which they eternally approach. They also believe, as I do, that the quest for knowledge is by far the noblest and most meaningful of all human activities. p. 5

***The point is?

The most common strategy of the strong scientist is to point to all the shortcomings of current scientific knowledge, to all the questions left unanswering given the limitations of human science:

***It shows they understand the limitations of current scientific knowledge.

How, exactly was the universe created?
Could our universe be justone of an infinite number of universes?
Could quarks and electrons be composed of stillsmall particulars, ad infinitium?
What does quantum mechanics really mean?
(MOST QUESTIONS CONCERNING MEANING CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED IRONICALLY, AS LITERARY CRITICS KNOW).
Biology has its own slew of insoluble riddles.
How, exactly, did life begin on earth?
Just how inevitable was life's origin and its subsequent history?
(p. 7)

***Uh...huh....but there are questions that science has already answered and yet people continue to deny that the questions already have an answer.



Scientists are 21st Century Eunuchs dressed in Daoist Drag. They seek immortality through the mythology of their unbiased genetic research similar to what ancient Chinese emperors sought.

***The motivation may be the same but the tools are much sharper.

Human nature is human nature, no matter how you dress it up! I love them in their quasi-objective, born again stances, as if they have transcended their own humanness.
LOL

***That bugs me about scientists too.

You ought to read the Skeptical Inquirer to really see how kranked up they are about TCM. LOL

***Like I said TCM is going to be incorporated into modern medicine and explained by modern science.

What constitutes TCM now has already been "corrupted" by the western influence. Things are becoming more standardized based on the western conception of anatomy. Expect to see more of it until TCM is reduced to a foot note in history.

The refuge of those who want to believe in mysticism and "vital forces" will be in Chi Gung and Internal Martial arts (and probably faith healing) where due to so many variables it is harder to test hypotheses.

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RAF
[B]***Scientists are obviously "inspired" by "divine" bouts of creativity. That's where all theories start. But the difference between Science and Not Science is that the theories are put under the micrscope of logic and experimentation.

Theoretical science, applied science, applied science in medicine. I didn't pidgeon hole ya, ya did yourself. This assumes that everything is subject and understandable through logic and experimentation.

***Obviously we can't live our lives like this. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow...BTW, I study Zen, Chi Gung, TaiJi, Xin Yi, etc. so don't think I haven't looked into these things myself.

Life isn't lived this way and you don't want the "tail" of science wagging the "dog" of life.

***Agreed. Science is not a philosophy unto itself. If anything I'd call myself a Secular Humanist w/ a bent towards Asian philosophy and psychology. Science is a powerful tool that is available to humanity. It's the best we got.

You are right it is a tool and nothing more. It should learn to stay out of philosophy and metaphysics. However, it can't because its driven by subjectivity.

***I definitely disagree with you here. Science should inform our philosophy.

Are there any limits to where science and the scientific method can go?

***Yes definitely. We will always have to make decisions that are more about the "heart "than the "mind" but we can be as informed as possible about those decisions.

Simply because they are put to the test doesn't necessarily mean they have validity. Testing itself is riddled with subjectivity (incentives of grants do very interesting things to data. Publications and grants drive the tenure process and can obscure one's "objective" view). Group and collective thinking, likewise.

***You are arguing two different points here. 1) The scientific community is corrupt. 2) The scientific method is flawed.
Yes to 1) and no to 2).

Do you think science advances through hypothesis testing and corroboration of a theory? Endless journal articles on statistical testing and appropriate tests and conditions. Endless journal articles and endless theories not subject to definitive testing but treated as fact. Lots of wonderful mathematical theories with lots of wonderful speculation dressed up as fact under the guise of "science and the scientific method".

***Sure there is crap science out there. But the good science persists fads and trends.

Physics is especially in this realm.

***Or more specifically...cosmology. Human evolution is the same way. Theories are upset and new ones emerge at least once a month. But as out technology increases so does our power to answer these questions.

Maybe TCM will have to change the way scientists think about human functioning.

***It won't change it but it will become absorbed into it as it is studied and analyzed. I'm not saying that TCM doesn't work. I'm saying that what works and the reason it works will become illucidated by modern medicine and the scientific method.

I remember poor old dead Atkins in the 70s having to go before the Congress as they tore apart his claims and threatened to remove his medical license. The Harvard scientists all testifying about the "lack of scientific evidence" for the Atkins diet.

**I won't go there. We know scientifically why it works. What we don't know is the long range health effects of eating that way.

Too many variables in the human condition for Science and the Scientific method to deliver its Nirvana. If you took the Skeptical Inquirer and removed all references to science and put in religion, you'd think they had found Christ himself in a white lab coat.

**True. There are people that "pray to the God of Science."

But I don't consider myself one of them. I consider myself a common sense and rational thinker who is informed by science but not always guided by it.

In regards to the original topic of this thread. I think that the practices outlined are impractical and may be unhealthy. They seem to go against the natural functioning of the body and the benefits have not been documented by medical research.


Ahhh the price of salvation.

Ahh Mr. Fu Pow, you are a bright guy and I wish you well (sincere statement, no sarcasm to be read). Its not a bad idea to keep one eye open.


***Cheers.

[IronFist]

Anyone have the answers to my questions? (page 2)

[Former castleva]

It was said already but,anyway...

No matter how much you love the culture,love the martial arts,the list goes on...
Do not believe anything that was once written down (that is,on faith),often a long time ago.If the authority is a master of bi fu yu chuan zang fuan (hypotethical art) does hardly make him (or her) an authority on anything else (this is even more true,if the teachings of the person,or his/her age makes geological difference...)
If the alleged authority makes proud statements about something,study them.The authority can relieve some of the pain that results from his/her intellectual suicide by clinging to a vaguely described or non-falsifiable matters.
Dear folk,think!

[fa_jing]

Ironfist - there are so many variables that affect this. What you eat, how you think, what exercise you do. Are you practicing medititation? You need to vary all of these things as well as your, ahem, frequency in order to find out how they affect you over a period of time.

And in direct answer to your question, I think if you have a nightime "emission" 1-2 times a month, the " total production" minus the "total leakage" is greater than if you're jacking off to porn 1-2 times a day. The "difference" does *not* all come out into your urine, as some suggest. Some of the energy you can utilize.
However, ironically some Chinese ancient classics stated that these nightime emissions were more costly to the chi than sex. Which is why a lot of the Shaolin guys might run over to the little ho-house in the village, from what we hear. Another thing is when you're gonna have one of those dreams, think of something else, make yourself wake up or something. You can delay it sometimes by several days. It's quite gay of me to tell you this but I know there is a big interest in such methods in the Chinese Martial Arts community. Just don't let your balls pop off. :eek:

All in all though, I agree with people who have no inclination whatsoever towards designing their sex lives around the principles of the Shaolin Temple. LOL ;)

[IronFist]

Hmm...

Has anyone actually practiced a qigong while having sex? I don't mean while having sex, but I mean at a time in their life when they are very sexually active? Are they sure that it weakens chi? I mean like, was some guy not able to do a one finger handstand after having sex, or some guy couldn't take sledge hammers to the stomach any more after having sex, and so he concluded that sex weakens chi? Just curious. Some famous philosopher said "question everything."

I'm just curious. I'm not really doing any qigong right now, and I also have a girlfriend :D

IronFist

[IronFist]

^ bump

[Mo Ling]

basically this stuff is fairly obvious. Anyone who practices strenuous fighting drills can feel the difference in strength and constitution between pre and post ...party moments. The longer one goes without letting it go the stronger one gets...to a point. Most professional fighters and athletes refrain from sex for long periods before competitions.

Working yourself into a frenzy and then stuffing the pressure back is also bad for your body. The healthy thing to do is to control it if you want to hold it by using breathing and self awareness and control, instead of forcing the issue one way or the other.

there are varying reports on how long one should wait afterwards to practice. Listen to your body. Learn how to notice when you are at full power and when you are still ...hmm...a bit soft. Usually the next day it is really fine to practice, but not practicing power. In internal arts, practicing power the next day is likely to hurt your kidneys among other things. Practice but practice soft or slow...whatever. There are so many ways to practice that are useful, we dont need to practice power everyday. When you feel strong again practice power.

Internal arts are a mixed bag in this area. The internal training usually leads to a lot of energy and and increase in ...interest....but if practiced properly, should also include the result of making the sexual center stronger. This results in better retention and in some cases more work required to ...let things out. unfortunately this level of practice is mostly missing from internal arts these days.


www.taijigongfu.com

[Fu-Pow]

Mo Ling has the best answer I've seen so far. Learn to listen to your body.

[[Censored]]

dude i'm talking about stopping it while you're sleeping.

Yeah, as you know it's not enough to have strong muscles. You must develop a strong will and a desire to employ it, and thereby control your dreams or stop them altogether.

Or did you think "internal kung fu" is all about moving your belly around? ;)

The avatar is from Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

[Former castleva]

"Yeah, as you know it's not enough to have strong muscles. You must develop a strong will and a desire to employ it, and thereby control your dreams or stop them altogether. "

Are you serious?

[_William_]

Hmmm... you could always learn lucid dreaming, which lets you control your dreams. Problem with that is that some authorities view it as a sleep disorder(Abnormal activity in prefrontal cortex... I think.).

[Former castleva]

I cannot see how that could be a sleep disorder.
As far as I know,it is not possible to control your dreams but "lucid dreaming" is rather a term concerning the state between sleep and "waking life" where you can "control" your dreams to some degree but this hardly is a matter of learning.

[_William_]

http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html



1.1 WHAT IS LUCID DREAMING?

Lucid dreaming means dreaming while knowing that you are dreaming. The term was coined by Frederik van Eeden who used the word "lucid" in the sense of mental clarity. Lucidity usually begins in the midst of a dream when the dreamer realizes that the experience is not occurring in physical reality, but is a dream. Often this realization is triggered by the dreamer noticing some impossible or unlikely occurrence in the dream, such as flying or meeting the deceased. Sometimes people become lucid without noticing any particular clue in the dream; they just suddenly realize they are in a dream. A minority of lucid dreams (according to the research of LaBerge and colleagues, about 10 percent) are the result of returning to REM (dreaming) sleep directly from an awakening with unbroken reflective consciousness.

The basic definition of lucid dreaming requires nothing more than becoming aware that you are dreaming. However, the quality of lucidity can vary greatly. When lucidity is at a high level, you are aware that everything experienced in the dream is occurring in your mind, that there is no real danger, and that you are asleep in bed and will awaken shortly. With low-level lucidity you may be aware to a certain extent that you are dreaming, perhaps enough to fly or alter what you are doing, but not enough to realize that the people are dream representations, or that you can suffer no physical damage, or that you are actually in bed.



According to the above, lucid dreaming is dreaming while knowing you are dreaming, basically. ;)

Besides, I have friends that say that they lucidly dream, and they have no reason to lie to me.

I read somewhere that when lucid dreaming is triggered some part of your brain which is not supposed to be active during your sleep becomes active, and this has the effect of lending some conscious awareness to dreams. Or something to that effect.

That would count as a sleep disorder, IMO.

[IronFist]

Lucid dreaming is awesome. I used to have them fairly often as a kid, but not so much any more (I'm 22 now).

IronFist

[RAF]

Dream well!

Posted on Thu, Aug. 21, 2003

He who has last laugh dies
Associated Press

BANGKOK, Thailand - An ice-cream truck driver in Thailand died while laughing in his sleep, a newspaper reported Thursday.

****oen Saen-um, 52, laughed for about two minutes on Wednesday and then stopped breathing, The Nation said, quoting officials.

The newspaper said ****oen's wife tried to wake him up but he kept laughing. An autopsy suggested that he might have had a heart attack, The Nation quoted a doctor as saying.

"I have never seen a case like this. But it is possible that a person could have heart seizure while laughing or crying too hard in their sleep," said Dr. Somchai Chakrabhand, deputy director-general of the Mental Health Department, according to The Nation.

The incident occurred in Phrae province, 300 miles north of Bangkok.
_____________________________________________

[Former castleva]

Thanks for bringing up the link.
I still do not think that lucid dreaming has anything to do with a sleep disorder.

[Christopher M]

RAF,
I think you have some serious opinions here, but I'm having trouble weeding actual points from the vitriol. I'm wondering if this is an intentional aspect of your disagreements with rationality?
There's alot that you seem to be phrasing implicitly as criticisms, but upon analysis I can't find anything ****ing in them. Perhaps if you were more explicit, your thesis would be more clear.


Originally posted by RAF
MOST QUESTIONS CONCERNING MEANING CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED IRONICALLY, AS LITERARY CRITICS KNOW.

I think here you're confusing post-modernism and radical relativism for the entire field of criticism (literary or otherwise), whereas in fact they're very small, very recent, very controversial, and very at odds with the underlying themes of this field.

In fact, literary critics (of course?) have spent an awful lot of time answering questions about meaning, and entirely without irony. This seems self-evident to me (what do you think the corpus of literary criticism consists of? The remark "we can say nothing about meaning" then a few million pages of empty witticism?). If this is unclear, perhaps you should look up the structuralist movement, which closely predates the relativism you mention, and has an awful lot to say about meaning. Would you like some references for this?


How dare science advance and discover cognitive/behavioral psychology and now cognitive psychology.

Aren't you observing here that science has and does, in fact, see past the very things which you are criticising it for? Doesn't this invalidate your own criticisms?


This assumes that everything is subject and understandable through logic and experimentation. Life isn't lived this way and you don't want the "tail" of science wagging the "dog" of life.

Yes, science requires the assumption of an intelligible and reproducible universe. So does Daoism, TCM, qigong, etc. Again, this seems like a self-defeating argument.


You are right it is a tool and nothing more. It should learn to stay out of philosophy and metaphysics.

Why and how should science stay out of philosophy, when it is no more than a branch of philosophy? This remark is difficult to comprehend.


Are there any limits to where science and the scientific method can go?

Are there any limits to where inspired thought can go? Abstract art? Daydreaming? Surely the answer is the same in each case.


Testing itself is riddled with subjectivity

Yes. This is the strong argument for the scientific method, not against it. This is why principles like reproducibility, objectivity, parsimony, etc are implemented. If you take subjectivity to be a problem, then a process which does it's best to minimize subjectivity is the solution you're implicitly supporting. Again - this is the argument for science, not against it.

[Christopher M]

Lucid Dreaming -

Has different levels, starting with increased awareness that you are dreaming and related self-consciousness and progressing towards complete control of the dreaming experience. Yes, the later is absolutely possible; and learning/training can effect it. It's not listed in any manual I know as a sleep disorder; perhaps you are confusing it for sleep paralysis and narcolepsy, which depending on your view, could be argued to be similar.

I'm not sure if ending night-time ejaculation is among the benefits of lucid dreaming though. It's not an all-or-nothing thing, and if your mind/body wants a wet dream, this is probably going to effect your ability to go or stay lucid. In the contrary, lucid dreaming is likely to lead for many people to an increase in wet dreams; for, uh... obvious reasons.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Former castleva
I still do not think that lucid dreaming has anything to do with a sleep disorder.

And I still think that lucid dreaming is awesome. Yeah! Hi-Five!

:D

IronFist

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by RAF
Here ideology, subjectivity, unconscious projection, ego, escalation of commitment, group think, professional reputation etc. all become an intractable issue.

Sure. "Here" and elsewhere. This is precisely what our foe Skinner would claim as well; and this is why people support reproducibility, testability, and other forms of collective (rather than solipsistic) inquiry.


After being doused in the Existential Phenolmenology approach found at Duquesne University...

Neither existentialism nor phenomenology are antagonistic to rationalism, of course; and there's no reason why they should be antagonistic to science - other than people's need to reify the tools they use to understand the world, incorporate them into their ego, and in that way get them tangled up in self vs Other.

There are plenty of names that come to mind as having pretentions simultaneously in the movement you describe above and that of science/mathematics/medicine, etc - at Duquesne perhaps, for example, you've had exposure to [authentic] Lacan in this regard?


attending debates regarding Skinner's approach to psychology

Which, as you know, is history. The cognitive revolution has allready occurred (and at the hands of scientists, no less!).


I have come to accept (embrace) that many areas of the scientific method rest on presuppositions that are untestable.

Of course they do. This was covered in your intro to philosophy of science, right? So what?


There is a continuing debate whether assumptions need to be realistic or testable providing they produce empirically valid conclusions.

No there's not. This is the definition of empirical. Maybe there's a debate as to whether or not empiricism is the only useful kind of knowledge... even this though I think has become as dead as nature vs. nurture.


The book I cited, The Limits of Science, is well worth reading and I basically concur that that science and the scientific method its rapidly reaching is limits

In the mean time, scientists are busy probing new territory and uncovering all sorts of fascinating insights.

It's been mentioned that perhaps scientists should quit the theorizing and just practice qigong/TCM/taoism if they want to find out about it... here I'd reverse the suggestion and recommend an engagement, rather than theorizing, with science.


The Skeptical Inquirer and those supporting the New Age funny--two sides of the same coin.

Right, and neither of these sources represent quality in their alleged fields. The Skeptical Inquirer is to Cortex as the New Age is to Journal of Neoplatonic Studies.

[Mo Ling]

....and back to the topic of the post....

Mr. Censored posted this:
"dude i'm talking about stopping it while you're sleeping.

Yeah, as you know it's not enough to have strong muscles. You must develop a strong will and a desire to employ it, and thereby control your dreams or stop them altogether.

Or did you think "internal kung fu" is all about moving your belly around?"

----------------------------------------------

In response I can say this; if your internal practice has the element of strengthening the sexual center simply by normal gongfu practice then the whole apparatus will be stronger. Practice builds jing, but practice that only builds jing without building the strength of the sexual center as well is actually worse for this condition. Increased energy and jing combined with a normally weak center is as if your cultivation is like adding five huge rivers to the three gorges dam project in China without strengthening the dam to hold back the water.

Normally if the strength of the sexual center is not cultivated, then it will be a slave to the mind...but then add increase jing cultivation and you are doomed. Like I said before most gongfu, internal or not does not have this method anymore...only the talk. I cannot explain how to do it here, it is just inherent in the method of my practice which is more than slightly complicated.

I have noticed a big change in my own body from this practice and it was not something I was trying to find. I encourage you to find a teacher who really can teach this is you are actually looking for it, it would be very hard to figure it out in one generation.
On the other hand I am not 20 years old anymore, and I kind of remember that being a bit different, but I think this would even work against youth if practiced seriously.

Attempting to control the mind as a preventitive measure may be good, but I have little faith that you will have success. Even young Buddhist monks wrestle with this problem until the body calms a bit with age. If you attempt to use the mind to tacklle this issue in youth while neglecting the physical side of it, it will be like banging your head against the wall...er..or the bed as it were.



http://www.taijigongfu.com

[RAF]

Well, its time to remove my postings.

In place is a nice article for those of you into Science and the Scientific Method.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/02/science/space/02STRI.html?8hpib

One Cosmic Question, Too Many Answers
By DENNIS OVERBYE


all it the theory of anything.

Einstein once wondered aloud whether "God had any choice" in creating the universe. It was his fondest hope that the answer was no.

He and subsequent generations of physicists have hoped that at the end of their labors there would be one answer — a so-called Theory of Everything — that would explain why the details of the world are the way they are and cannot be any other way: why there was a Big Bang, the number of dimensions of space-time, the masses of elementary particles.

For 20 years, physicists have lodged those hopes in string theory, a mathematically labyrinthian effort to portray nature as made up of tiny wriggling strings and membranes, rather than pointlike particles or waves.

Once called a piece of 21st-century physics that had fallen into the 20th century by accident, string theory has become one of the hippest fields of science, celebrated in books like the recent best seller "The Elegant Universe," by the Columbia theorist Brian Greene, and the subject of a miniseries on "Nova," coming this fall.

In principle, strings can unite all the forces of nature, including gravity, in a single mathematical framework. But the "stringiness" of nature manifests itself only at energies and temperatures that can be generated in a particle accelerator the size of a small galaxy.

As a result, physicists have been left at the mercy of their mathematical imaginations or sifting cosmological data for hints of a clue from God's own particle accelerator, the Big Bang.

Enjoy!

[Daredevil]

Lucid Dreaming can most definately be practised and learned. Ive yet to devote enough time to doing that though, but it's certainly on my to do list.

As for sex and martial arts ... I sure as heck don't know. Yep, it's typical for sportspeople to abstain "before the big game", but if that is just tradition or has firm roots in tradition isn't sure. Of course, it could be matter of mental focus since thinking about sex has a tendency to take a lot of our mental energy. ;)

As for practising qigong and having sex .. been there, done that. I'd say the qigong has still been useful, though if it would have been more useful if I hadn't had sex, I don't know. In fact, all this talk has made me go for the old 100 days of abstinance thing. Last I tried, I failed. Let's see how long it goes now.

I have a seriously hard time believing teens and early adults anywhere on the planet don't masturbate with determined regularity, so I view most of these stories with skepticism.

But who knows? Maybe I'll be superman after 100 days.

[RAF]

Fu-Pow and Christopher M:

I forgot to mention that I am in the Paul Feyerabend/Thomas Kuhn camp with a bit of Karl Popper tossed in.

No point in going into that.

Cheers.

[Christopher M]

Have you read the book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415058988/qid=1062606812/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-1700613-0876904?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) Popper did with Eccles? I really enjoyed it, though I prefer Plotinus to Popper. :eek: