What is overreaction?

[Mr Punch]

Assuming that if there's one thing martial artists agree on, it's that if you can't avoid violence, and you can't run, you should defend yourself with violence...

should we be aiming for:

1) Maximum violence on your attacker to ensure that he can't continue?
2) Optimum violence on your attacker to ensure he won't continue?

I know this topic has been covered before, but reading some of the more recent leanings, like on the Hiroshima thread, anti-pussification, BJ's recently stronger insistence that you should be getting rid of a defensive mindset , plus Berserker's comedy assertions that you should kill first and ask questions later etc... it seems that the mood of a lot of people on KFO is changing a little.

Personally, I have always aimed to preserve myself first, and pretty much gone out the way not to kill my attackers! Ie, to preserve them too.

The problems I have encountered with this are:

1) Once, after I'd fought him off and put the fear of life into him (actually I wasn't trying to preserve him, I was trying to take his head off on reflex, but I slipped, he got a palm to the point of the chin... and then I let him recover, choosing not to 'finish him off'...) an attacker pulled a knife on me. I got away safely, but I couldn't help thinking that my decision to not put him down and out properly, helped contribute to a dangerous armed man going free. In future, I think I'd probably try to put him out of action, but again, I wouldn't want to kill him...

2) Another time, I was trying to avoid hurting someone drunk guy in the street who had gone ape**** at me, and he very nearly beat the **** out of me. In the end, my old man (a very big guy!) picked him up by the throat and shall we say 'neutralized' the problem.

OK, so first guy: should I have dropped him so he wasn't going to get up again? I didn't know he had a knife, so would that have been an overreaction?

Second guy: he had the opportunity to do me some real damage, but was obviously just drunk and wanting a fight, not wanting to kill anyone. For me to have stopped him, I would have had to have done him some serious damage, which would have probably been an overreaction in the eyes of the law, and my own conscience... but how did I know his intentions?

Any thoughts?

[No_Know]

In those cases, slam to a wall for internal damage. Not continuing, back away watching their reactions. When leaving go to place out of eye contact from downed person. If they have a knife or gun you should want distance between you two, just in case.

I'm thinking leave them groggy but not limb broken-ish nor face hurt. Body/torso area damage front/back. leave as soon as possible. Take an exit that is not straight away from scene of departure. Obsticles to sight between you and scene while exiting. Not shooting you if not seeing you. Go to public place (inhibits being followed or loses you in the publicness perhaps.

Perhaps report to local authorities. That you were attacked and where you left downed person.

I'm hesitant to search the body for weapons and disarm (careful to not add your fingerprints to their weapons) downed person. Part of winning strategy is Deception. That's perhaps why the so-called Honorable ways...don't kick a man when he's down--not high and mighty superiormorals nor attitude, experienced common sense safety (overridden in many by (they hurt me I'll get them back while I'm stronger than them).

If they seem weak (play 'possom) the less scrupulus person might get grabbed surprised offballanced stabbed, shot, taken-down...It seems to further jeopardize me to close, when person is down or seemingly out for the count.

You are proud (arrogant). Then you fall...

There seems prove attacks (gang or party or publicly attacked), and reward attacks.

The body down is for reward attacks--attacks in which a reward for attacking is sought (sex, power, money, items...)

For prove attacks--trying to impress a person or group or satisfy personal honor...Attack in response. disabling limbs is O.K. here because these are Pride driven attacks. Unrelenting, fueled bythe audience / feeling to make an example of beating you.~ cripple them. And evidenced that it's their fault. It you Are skilled (lucky) enough, thwart their attacks verbal, physical, psychological and inhibit them and offer them a chance, verbally, to discontinue this. Do that as long as you can until they get tired.

They Wil perhas continue this privately. It should be handled as torso area damage to disable immediate pursual. As long as you are Not out of place it seems reasonable that you felt Life threatened by the person who confronts you in private after public attemt to harm you failed.


There's branches to what to do and reasons-ish. What I've put here might be guides or thoughts for some databases on things.~

[red5angel]

For me it is a matter of circumstance I think. If you break into my house, I am most likely going to aim to end any chance of you ever doing it again. The chances of reprisals if I "aim to maim" and you get out of jail is too high for my comfort to risk my family that way.
If you jump me or my loved ones on the street then at the very least I am going to work at putting you out of any sort of action, ie knocking you unconcious if possible. This way I don't get a knife or gun pulled on me after I had thought the fight was over.

[Ray Pina]

I have two rules of engagement:

One on one Vs. another MA: try your best, land your blows, but do not aim to break anything. If the two of you are cool and not insecure, a match of skill should leave some bruises but not much more.

Against an unknown attacker: put them down and take them out. ASSUME THAT THEY HAVE A WEAPON! If they don't, they can grab one easily (bottle, stick, brick, rock, garbage can, chain, pen, shoe, ect)

The tricky area is the non clear cut scenarios: Out with a girl and some loud mouth gets disrespectful. You ask for an apology or to tone it down and they refuse, picking it up actually. A lot of this is ego driven I admit, but what do you do if someone steps to your girl on a dance floor when she's obviously with you?

There's a lot of depends with this type of situation and the one I like the least.

[Christopher M]

Maximum avoidance of all conflict, maximum violence to make sure anyone forcing conflict on you stays down, and maximum emphasis on getting you and your loved ones out of the area if possible - are good bedmates.

[Shaolin-Do]

Dont try to kill... If a drunken friend throws a punch, lock em up and set em down, If some guy you dont know throws a punch, knock them the f*ck out. If some guy steps to your chick when shes with you... Well if she pays the other dude attention then MA isnt where you need your work. :rolleyes:
Big egos are a strange thing, they tend to fuel one another. 2 big egos will usually end in a fight as soon as one begins to inflate. Ego 2 sees ego 1 flex, and does the same, ego 1 sees ego 2 flex, and tries harder, and the situation thus perpetuates itself, usually to the point of violence.

If some dude attacked me in some back road Id break his legs. No chances for someone you dont know in a dark place. Hurt them and give them fear. Not kill tho.

[Ryu]

have any one of you ever really tried to kill someone? Have you ever successfully done it? If we are talking about killing with "martial arts"......well how hard do you think killing someone really is?

People who are being killed make noise, scream, try to stay alive, try to escape, try to kill you back, etc.

I think people who have never killed anyone before don't know the first thing about killing.

If you really want to know the answers to the questions you're asking you need to get off the computer right now, talk to your local law enforcement agencies, lawyers, etc. and find out what constitutes "legal defense" in your state or country.

Real study of this kind of thing requires the person to be knowledable in state law, statutes, the legal system, making a case, etc.

Ryu

[Shaolin-Do]

Dont think Id kill... As far as killing a person goes however, sometimes would be easier than kicking ass...
Never killed and doubt I will however, at least hope I never have to....
9 times out of 10 killing someone would be "Excessive force"... Texas has "mutual combat" laws, so it doesnt really matter who started it.

[DelicateSound]

Just do whatever you have to, no more.

Once you've chosen to take physical action (i.e: You can't run, he won't back down) then you must make sure you do it right. You'll be very lucky if you smack a guy about a little and for him to turn around and say "OK, sorry mate, my fault". Flight or fight, and if you've engaged somebody in combat they'll most likely fight.


I once had to knock the crap out of a guy at a party last year. It was pretty one sided, but every time I knocked him down and tried to end it he got back up again and two mutual friends had to drag him away.

If that was a random stranger who knows? Most dickheads carry knives.

[CaptinPickAxe]

different times=different measures

If you dealing with an emotionally distruaght friend restraint is the way to go. There is no sense in killing your good friend because his girlfriend broke up w/ him and he's throwing punches.

Now, If a deranged crack addict attacks you with a broken glass pipe and a shoe...well, beat the **** out of him. Killing is never the answer unless its a life or death situation.

[Shaolin-Do]

Dude, f*ckin cool avatar.

[Ray Pina]

"Most ****heads carry knives"

Hey, I carry a knife; Spyderco. You never know.

Also, what's going on in that avatar? Is it a witch riding a broom upside down? What? I can't figure it out.

[Shaolin-Do]

I was talking about the alcoholic smileyface.
I dunno what CPAs avatar is...?
I Any real crackhead knows how to use their boken lightbulb for self defense....

[CaptinPickAxe]

ukyo...samurai showdown. I'm waiting to use my "super-secret-ultra-cool" avatar when I can change the saying under my name.

[Shaolin-Do]

Check your pms. tol you how.

[CaptinPickAxe]

it won't let me

[Shaolin-Do]

My bad... Under Edit profile, not user options.

[CaptinPickAxe]

negative

[Shaolin-Do]

Then go pizz off the WC forum or somethin real quick, it should let you once you get 100 posts.
MAybe 200..... I forgot.

[MasterKiller]

I think you have to be registered for more than 7 days to change your status.

[Shaolin-Do]

That could be it too...
Thread jacking!

ttt
Over reaction is breaking someones legs for coughing on their hand in an improper manner.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Its not an over reaction to beat up your cousin for eating the last steak...after he lost at arm wrestling.

[Shaolin-Do]

Anytime 2 drunken males armwrestle for the last steak, theres gonna be a fight. Thats just too much testosterone.
Funny azz story tho...
:)

[Ray Pina]

"I think people who have never killed anyone before don't know the first thing about killing"

Ryu, I wish that was so. How much experience did those kids in Columbine have with killing before they captured the attention of the entire country?

Killing, and unerstanding the legal, moral and spiritual implications of doing so are two different things .... again, unfortunatly.

[Shaolin-Do]

"I think people who have never killed anyone before don't know the first thing about killing"


I think this was more geared towards the brains emotional response to killing...

[TonyM.]

Most killers start with small animals.:(