"Use your body as a shield" [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Savi

08-19-2003, 04:43 PM

The use of the "knee-advance" as some might call has a specific purpose for specific moments in time in HFY usage.

Testing the field... bringing the knee up before advancing forward allows you to either attack or defend the lower gates of the body from a positional advantage: centerfield. You can either intercept kicks or deliver them as well. It looks similar to a crane stance at the highest inclination of the knee, but it is not a stance at all.

In a defensive posture, it allows you to address both left and right side of the centerline at the lower gate area of the body. It is used to protect against low kicks both straight and round. The integrity of structure is based on the HFY formula. Even in a "crane" type posture structure can be maintained against dynamic energies according to the guidelines of the HFY formula.

In an offensive moment, it is used to sweep the lower gates of potential attacks while advancing into the opponent's space by clearing from the centerline and out to the side. This not only prevents the availability of owning center space from the opponent, but should a bridge be established during motion your mass and momentum give you the advantage in terms of spacing, energies, and timing. Whether you end up inside your opponent's arnesal or outside of it, strategy and tactical arrays govern your position and advantages.

In either moment of defense or offense, you always address the gate being attacked first. This, otherwise known as clearing gates, allows you to assess the situation before considering a proper counter attack. The use of the advancing knee also, from a mechanical standpoint, allows you to go from a neutral-type stance to a forward-type stance, which is more agressive in use and nature. In a sense, it allows you to have defensive capabilities while being offensive WRT legwork.

This is my understanding of how the knee is used in the case you are asking about.

Wingman

08-19-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by [Censored]
Has anyone tried to employ, successfully or not, the flying knee entry advocated by William Cheung?

Does he teach and/or practice the forms, in the same way he demonstrates them on his tapes?

Hi Censored,

I'm a little confused why the title of the thread is "Use your body as a shield". Is this the principle behind the flying knee entry technique?

Edmund

08-19-2003, 06:35 PM

It's a great move. Not necessarily used a few feet away.

Best time is when they try to kick so it's within range of their kick.
The raised knee protects your leg/lower torso. Moving in allows you to jam their thigh with your knee.

Doesn't work so well just jumping from a distance when your opponent is not kicking. Use sparingly. As their thigh comes forward put your knee up to stop it. Otherwise stay on the ground.

A different approach from Muay Thai is to hit a flying knee when the opponent's body is exposed. But since this is a WC forum, I won't bother getting into that.

how do you decide when to use it, and when to stay on the ground? What exactly do you gain by jumping at the opponent from a few feet away?

namron

08-20-2003, 05:30 AM

namron

08-20-2003, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by [Censored]
I'd love for anyone to explain that move to me, TWC or not. For example, how do you decide when to use it, and when to stay on the ground? What exactly do you gain by jumping at the opponent from a few feet away?

The move is used to bridge the kicking range on an opponent or to pursue.

As Savi said in an earlier post it provides good coverage of the lower/middle/upper gates against kick attacks and allows you to cover the distance into exchange or hand fighting range.

The move is often called a hop but it is important that the entry technique moves smoothly in one motion & level without bobbing body or head movement that will telegraph the entry.

Importantly when people first are learning this move they tend to enter too deep into the opponent or straight in smashing into each other and clashing force on force.

The entry (at least the way i was taught it) should cut diagonally across the opponent (not straight in). It should stop at contact using your bil hand as a feeler to react/follow up.

Its no good too far away as it is obvious to pick, use it just outside kicking range and explosively to bridge ranges.

Universal Stance

08-20-2003, 07:32 AM

Namron gave a pretty good explanation... Edmund is off...

It is not done while the enemy is in kicking range. There is a leg block/deflect but no hop.

It's used to go from pre-contact to contact stages (a half-step or full-step brings one into the exchange stage) in an explosive manner and it works. Done properly you can even stop mid-leap. This is done by leaping more forward than up and leaping with possible interruption in mind (by leaping in a way that doesn't require your leading leg to devote too much energy in stopping your momentum -- leaping from the back leg and landing on the back leg), careful distance judging and aiming for the opponents blindside in a diagonal matter.

It is trained in our wooden dummy form. Each set of 10 begins with an entry technique in several variations. It's not an easy technique.

It works by maximally covering your gates and groin (and everything else on your centerline), while causing your opponent to have to change direction and thus enter the contact stage on the defensive.

If the opponent does move quick enough to avoid contact stage (which can only be done by moving back--usually), the practitioner can covert the front guarding leg into a front kick, causing the opponent to have to guard, and quickly take a full step forward.

I say only back movement because the entry technique's interruptiblity does allow the practitioner to change direction if sidestepped-- often quicker than the opponent can.

I've also seen it with double lop sau as opposed to bil sau. Also low side kicks, or stomps can be used too instead of fronts. It is NOT for knee strikes.

A few of my sihings and my sifu (not to mention Sigung Cheung) use it very effectively. I'm still working on it but have used it with positive results.

Also the techique is on several of his tapes, but especially on his wooden dummy tape.

Here are demos. (http://wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp)

Hope you don't mind Sifu Redmond...

reneritchie

08-20-2003, 08:20 AM

As anyone who's been watching PrideFC knows, the Flying Knee has made a dramatic return to the ring. Chute Boxe team is particularly nasty with it, with Anderson Silva getting the KO on Carlos Newton (who survived Pele's flying knee last time). Heck, even BJJ fighter Nino 'Elvis' Shembri managed to knock out Sakuraba starting with the knee, and Victor Belfort split Marvin Eastman wide, wide, wide open with one recently in the UFC.

Surprise and power seemed to be the deciding factors. Movements like that re-define the ideas of range as non-classically codified (a long range close range movement).

Negatives, of course, include the fact that it creates risk equal to the rewards if the opponent isn't surprised, or if they're sufficiently advanced in WCK where they understand balance and momentum and can just modify the incoming knee to cut you straight to the ground.

If we stick strictly to what Cheung sifu does on his video, he seems to just be using the slicing concept in WCK with his whole body in one shot. With explosiveness and surprise, I can see it being effective in the context he presents it. Many arts have movements like this, both straight ahead and from other angles.

[Censored]

08-20-2003, 10:27 AM

I'm a little confused why the title of the thread is "Use your body as a shield". Is this the principle behind the flying knee entry technique?
That's just a very, very funny quote from the video I saw.

It is not done while the enemy is in kicking range. There is a leg block/deflect but no hop.
We must be talking about two different techniques then, because I definitely saw a hop every time.

...Many arts have movements like this, both straight ahead and from other angles.
A hop from outside kicking range, to just inside it? Name one.

Universal Stance

08-20-2003, 12:34 PM

Was it done by a fighter who was considerably shorter of the two? I can see it used like that. Otherwise, as far as TWC goes, I would say that is too dangerous. You don't want to be on one leg that close to an opponent.

Are you sure it was kicking range? Which is the extent their kick would reach without stepping? Was the opponent retreating?Usually in contact stage (if the opponent doesn't step straight back) we rely on half-steps or maybe a full step to advance.

The demos on Sifu Redmond's site is it's proper use with same size opponents or those with small differences in height.

If the guy was 5' vs 6' then I can see it happening as you described (properly).

Phil Redmond

08-20-2003, 03:05 PM

The entry technique is more a forward lunge than a hop.

CaptinPickAxe wrote: "yes someone jumped at me with there knee forward and I moved......"

We expect you to move. It's all part of the strategy to exploit your reaction. Obviously the person that tried that on you didn't drill the posiblilities of what an opponent could do over and over. During an entry your target can move to the side or straight back or even charge at you. The biu sao arm moves a fraction of a second out and towards an opponents eyes before the knee goes up. This way the opponent's attention will be focused at the arm coming at him and not at the raised knee that might execute a rib or knee kick. Your opponent can kick or punch as you are attemping to bridge the gap. All of these are taken into consideration in TWC. The entry leg can change into to a front or side kick also. Sometimes the entry is simply a fake to draw your opponent's attention away from the real intent. Interruptability, (if that's a word) is the most important thing in TWC. The entry isn't some blind charge like some people might think. I can change direction mid-stream and go diagonally if my opponent goes that way. I can fake an entry to the right but change to the left mid -entry. I can land and launch a rear leg kick if my target moves out of reach. The key thing is to pressure your opponent.
I know we WC people talk of simultaneous attack and defense. That's good in theory. But in most situations you are either attacking or defending. Timing is crucial in the entry. I'll move around a bit before I enter. An entry from a "dead" stationary position can be detected easily be some one. The entry is used during movement, not from a dead start. I don't know how advanced some of the TWC people are on this forum but I hope you're training to defend against all types of punches and round, side, spinning, front kicks, etc. while doing an entry.

TjD

08-20-2003, 04:14 PM

wouldn't coming in with your knee raised make you rather open to being uprooted? all it takes is one leg under the kneeing leg...

Phil Redmond

08-20-2003, 04:49 PM

wouldn't coming in with your knee raised make you rather open to being uprooted? all it takes is one leg under the kneeing leg...
The raised knee isn't a knee strike and dynamics are involved. And there are "what ifs" in any technique done. It's simply used to cover your lower gate while bridging the gap between you and your opponent. This entry isn't a fully committed move. A person should be able change direction at any time. Did you read the part where I wrote a distraction is sometimes used? Speed is another factor.
Read Rene's post about some UFC fighters.

Savi

08-20-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by TjD
wouldn't coming in with your knee raised make you rather open to being uprooted? all it takes is one leg under the kneeing leg... You bring up an excellent question TjD, and you have to understand the purpose of the lead leg. In HFY bridging footwork, the leading leg is not used to attack the opponent with the knee. It is only used to secure the space in front of you while you advance towards them.

Some minor details: In order to protect your hind leg from attack, your shin must cover the area from the knee downward. Your foot of the advancing leg cannot trail behind your knee or the hind leg will be exposed. If you can maintain the shape and proper structure, in a sense it is very much like a shield for the legs. This is all you need to enter the opponent's space while getting into your striking range.

In training this, it is quite clearly understood that this footwork is only used when you are advancing forward to intercept an attack or a retreating opponent. The shape/structure and use are governed by strategy and tactics rather than looks.

TjD

08-20-2003, 05:05 PM

so the lead leg is closer in spirit to a tan sau (a wedge) than a knee?

Phil Redmond

08-20-2003, 05:20 PM

Savi covered points I missed. Also you don't enter square on. You enter at an angle so you have a wider base if resistance is encountered. Of course you know that resistance is futile....smile

TjD

08-20-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Savi covered points I missed. Also you don't enter square on. You enter at an angle so you have a wider base if resistance is encountered. Of course you know that resistance is futile....smile

resistance is worse than futile vs wing chun structure with a little momentum thrown in :D

Edmund

08-20-2003, 05:52 PM

Think you made a mistaken assumption.
I am NOT a TWC or HFY practitioner.

It's not a move exclusive to those lineages of WC.

That entry theory that I see from TWC people all the time is the one that impresses me the least about TWC. They think it's the Bee's Knees for some reason (I guess it's about as painful as a bee's knee strike). They almost have something if they move a foot closer. Interesting that both TWC and HFY advocate the same lame application.

It is not a practical fighting distance for anything other than a sparring/MA tournament scene. You aren't close enough to hurt someone. The only exception is the flying knee which is done from a distance. Now *that* is a good move.

You land that right and they are going to go down. (As Rene said, PrideFC is an example. Also Muay Thai sometimes.) Nothing pressures the opponent more than a flying knee to the head or chest.

Originally posted by Universal Stance
Namron gave a pretty good explanation... Edmund is off...

It is not done while the enemy is in kicking range. There is a leg block/deflect but no hop.

It's used to go from pre-contact to contact stages (a half-step or full-step brings one into the exchange stage) in an explosive manner and it works. Done properly you can even stop mid-leap. This is done by leaping more forward than up and leaping with possible interruption in mind (by leaping in a way that doesn't require your leading leg to devote too much energy in stopping your momentum -- leaping from the back leg and landing on the back leg), careful distance judging and aiming for the opponents blindside in a diagonal matter.

yuanfen

08-20-2003, 07:25 PM

I am not TWC and different families may be able to make their pet techniques work. Neither do I know the UFC context which Rene refers too--- details can make differences. In any case I think that lifting one's knee while closing the gap or getting it on is a mistake for most wing chun people. Inviting atleast a takedown or being dumped by someone who is not intimidated. Or someone shifting and striking. The knee lifter can very well be one move behind..in timing.I know opinions can vary.

Phenix

08-20-2003, 09:08 PM

As a kyokushin, with the experience with both Kyokushin and Muay Thai...... and some white crane guys.....

I will not raise my knee to enter as some WCK people do.
IMHO, It just takes a good angle sweept or two combination to take one out.

There is a reason why the Praying mantis stood high with knee up. There is a reason why White crane stood high.
But just for an out of range entry reason, I am too coward to even think about it. May be I don't know what I am talking about .
May be I have experienced or saw too many get into the bad habit and get take down by kick or wrestle.....

Only my very limited experience, in my understanding,
He who is keen in using legs will not securing, but execute a continous of rolling with thunderstorm, either it is a flying knee or a front push kick or .... Leg is just too bulky to play around like hand, can't be done and not for listerning.
securing means nothing for he who knows how to use leg. continous of making use of dynamic momentum and switching angle and in the sametime every move is a strike which is going for blood and target for knock out is the game...
space means nothing when the oponents keeps changing the angle and distance.....

One night in Bangkok makes a hard man humble
Not much between despair and ecstasy
One night in Bangkok and the tough guys tumble
Has to be really really careful with your company
I can feel the devil walking next to me

Why even trying to go under or go side way... to get into the knee.. If one's leg is train good and powerfull, just swept the heck out of the way, the target include the raise knee and the standing leg. take both out in one short. make use of the momentum, he who stand with one leg will not beable to sustain the momentum which is close in and target both legs. just like how those base ball bat breaking Kyokushin guy did to the other karate guy...
so what one collide in like kamakazi? kyokushin loves breaking test. and the reality in breaking is even ice block crash. not to mention people stand still or with low momentum in one leg.

Just my crazy two cents with some flash back..... :D
I must be drunk, Joy. don't take me serious

Miles Teg

08-20-2003, 10:46 PM

2 things

1. Dam TWC and HFY are similar

and

2. As Edmund said the type of knee that Rene is talking about and the TWC knee are no where near the same thing. The TWC is a little half raise with a skip in before hand striking, the knee is not supposed to be a strike - I understand the purpose of it but it still looks kind of lame.

The sort of knees that Rene is talking about are supposed to be strikes and are fully committed. Although some of the ones Rene mentioned were very lucky ie involve the receiver moving the head down at the same time or just after the flying knee is executed - which is disaster city.

namron

08-21-2003, 07:25 AM

I say Sam Greco (an Aussie kyokushin/kickboxer) do a flying knee to the head of another fighter squashed him like a grape!

Poor sap was trapped in a corner and majorly outclassed.

Savi

08-21-2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by Yuanfen
In any case I think that lifting one's knee while closing the gap or getting it on is a mistake for most wing chun people. Inviting atleast a takedown or being dumped by someone who is not intimidated. Or someone shifting and striking. The knee lifter can very well be one move behind..in timing. One thing we look at is that space determines what weapons you use. The advancing knee in HFY [and from what I gather in TWC as well] is used against an opponent who is also in an upright posture towards us. If their posture changes any lower, their intentions are quite clear. They are attacking the lower gates. You have to know how to read your opponent.

Grappling? Wrong application...
This is not used in approaching someone who has intentions to grapple you to the ground. Most people who have these intentions will either stalk your position until your rythm changes and their upright posture will quickly drop, or they will just charge in. It is quite easy to identify when someone does this, but difficult to deal with if you've had no experience in defending against this attack. In HFY, you would also lower your center of gravity in an off-center alignment to deal with the attacker(s) charging/diving in low. Still keeping the back straight without sacrificing the Jong Sau structure. Physics demand it.

This entry isn't a fully committed move. A person should be able change direction at any time. Sifu Redmond stated that in TWC it is not a committed move. This is in contrast to HFY. In HFY everything is committed, but that doesn't mean that HFY moves are not adaptable to circumstance. This also does not mean that they are over-committed. Yin and Yang. Perhaps this is what Sifu Redmond implied, but I'm not quite sure.

the "Attack Distance"
Once the opponent reaches a certain distance to your personal space, you go. This is regardless if the attacker does or doesn't attack. If they do attack, you should have already read their structure and know precisely where to enter. If they didn't commit, it would have made your initial response even easier to manage. On top of that, they have now fallen behind in the fight time.

This advancing move is used against someone who is at Kicking distance. In other words, this is only used when someone is kicking at you, or about to throw a strike. To stress the point on its use, it is used on a diagonal towards the attacker's side. This has been tried and tested; applicable - presuming you know how to protect your gates while bridging.

Energy
The effect the rising leg has on your momentum is quite interesting. As opposed to a quick dart to the side, a jumping motion sideways is actually easier to accomplish. The efficiency of energy use is weighed by "structural correctness". For HFY, the WC Formula governs this factor. This movement is considered an 'aerial attack' giving you the upper position and the 'drop' on their structure. Coupled with maneuverability and increased momentum and speed, this is very difficult to counter when it is challenging the attackers' center. Keep in mind, on the average time of closing distance (bridging), it is less than half a second.

Savi

08-21-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by TjD
so the lead leg is closer in spirit to a tan sau (a wedge) than a knee? Closer in spirit, yes. Closer to a Tan Sau? I don't see the connection. To use a more everyday/mechanical analogy, it's more like a street sweeper, a windshield wiper, a bat hitting a ball. From a military POV, it's a missile defense system, or a scout checking to see if the field is clear for entry. At least as I can relate to for the HFY usage.

Phil Redmond

08-21-2003, 09:45 AM

I'm starting to feel like Ernie about internet martial art talk. I think that seeing it done is a lot better than trying to explain it on a web forum.
Someone said that the entry technique is 'lame'. That's sad since the person who said it doesn't really know if it can work or not. How do I know this? Because I can do it. My kung fu brothers can do it. Some of my senior students can do it. And we can do it against an un co-operating opponent from styles other than WC. Remember everthing is relative. It's not like the entry is used 'all' the time by 'every' practitioner. My school is located in Madison Heights, MI.
My email is sifu@wingchunkwoon.com. Anyone visiting the Detroit area is welcome to come by the school for a demostration simply email me when you plan to be in town.

Ultimatewingchun

08-21-2003, 10:21 AM

Censored:

The TWC raised knee along with the bil sao with the lead hand and the slightly lower rear hand wu sao provides a "shield-like" defense to protect your main body and head targets as you move in to attack (or bridge the gap). The lower leg (raised knee) protects the groin, the bil protects the upper gate head area and the wu sao protects the middle gates.

This move is most effective against kicks as you move in because the ALREADY raised lead knee is kind of like having a bullet in the chamber - that leg is ready to kick the kick that might be coming at you as you attack.

But equally important is the fact that you are taking the initiative and quickly gaining ground on your opponent in order to (usually) land with a punching attack, supplemented with lop. pak, sweeping takedown, etc.

But this Entry should be practiced against a resisting partner (opponent) constantly in order to get the timing down, to learn how to disguise it, and to further understand when to try it and when to just simply move in (or perhaps to use a kick as one's opening move).

[Censored]

08-21-2003, 10:26 AM

...so what one collide in like kamakazi? kyokushin loves breaking test. and the reality in breaking is even ice block crash.
I agree, and that's why I found this thread's opening quote hilarious. The purpose of a shield is to absorb punishment and protect the body. If your body is the shield then what is it protecting?

Someone said that the entry technique is 'lame'. That's sad since the person who said it doesn't really know if it can work or not.
If you aren't immediately taken down, or crippled with a kick, would you therefore judge that this move was successful and justified? Otherwise, what are your criteria?

I wish one of the TWC folks would post a 30-60 second clip of this demo from the video. I also hope that one of you who has worked with William Cheung can answer my other question, whether he personally does his forms in the same way as he demos them on video.

Phenix

08-21-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by [Censored]
...so what one collide in like kamakazi? kyokushin loves breaking test. and the reality in breaking is even ice block crash.
I agree, and that's why I found this thread's opening quote hilarious. The purpose of a shield is to absorb punishment and protect the body. If your body is the shield then what is it protecting?

Protect the ego of the system and the ego of the sifu and the ego of oneself. Until one get knock out....

"I" know a few guys in Lui Toi, Win but die after a few months.... a sad story.

Buddha Said, " All phenomenon has no "self". Why protecting something it is not going to work or damaging? with one's body which is un replace able?

method man

08-21-2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by [Censored]
I wish one of the TWC folks would post a 30-60 second clip of this demo from the video. I also hope that one of you who has worked with William Cheung can answer my other question, whether he personally does his forms in the same way as he demos them on video.

there's a clip of Chueng trying it against Emin but I dont think thats what u had in mind

Miles Teg

08-21-2003, 05:12 PM

Censored
Do you remember the thread on TWC anti grappling and the clip that went with it? Thats where I saw the hop knee entry thing. Go to that thread click on the link and there will be a bunch of clips to chose from. One of them has a guy kind of skipping to one side and entering with chain punching.

Edmund

08-21-2003, 06:58 PM

http://wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp

There's another 2 clips also. The 1st one being the worst and Phil's 2 being nicer in my opinion.

Phil,

I said that particular usage was lame for a reason: Too far away to touch anything with the raised knee. I like technique. It's just the distance and idea behind it that I don't like. A lot of WC branches don't raise their knee much at all so I actually think TWC and HFY have one up on the more flat footed WC lines.

Thing is every TWC person I run into in Australia is very insular about their theory and very dismissive of any variation that differs from it. This thread is a good example. I SAID it was a good move and suggested the application that I prefer and some TWC guy immediately says that that it is wrong. For some reason, TWC would rather it only be used from way out of reach of any attack from the opponent and won't hear of anything else.

That IS lame compared to actually hitting someone with your knee when they try to kick you.

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Censored
Do you remember the thread on TWC anti grappling and the clip that went with it? Thats where I saw the hop knee entry thing. Go to that thread click on the link and there will be a bunch of clips to chose from. One of them has a guy kind of skipping to one side and entering with chain punching.

Universal Stance

08-21-2003, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Edmund

Thing is every TWC person I run into in Australia is very insular about their theory and very dismissive of any variation that differs from it. This thread is a good example. I SAID it was a good move and suggested the application that I prefer and some TWC guy immediately says that that it is wrong. For some reason, TWC would rather it only be used from way out of reach of any attack from the opponent and won't hear of anything else.

That IS lame compared to actually hitting someone with your knee when they try to kick you.

1... I have a name and it's not 'some TWC guy'
2... I didn't post until the next day
3... The original question was about TWC. I assumed you were speaking about TWC.
4...

Not necessarily used a few feet away.

Best time is when they try to kick so it's within range of their kick.
The raised knee protects your leg/lower torso. Moving in allows you to jam their thigh with your knee.

Doesn't work so well just jumping from a distance when your opponent is not kicking. Use sparingly. As their thigh comes forward put your knee up to stop it. Otherwise stay on the ground.

Like I said you were off. Not totally wrong but not right either as pertaining to TWC.

5... I said you were off, not that you were wrong. It was a specific question, not about variations, not about being closed minded, not about whether it's lame or not.

Be easy.

BTW thanks to Sifu Redmond's and Sifu Parlati's technical responses. I'm only certified level 5 grade 0.:o

Edmund

08-22-2003, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Universal Stance

1... I have a name and it's not 'some TWC guy'
2... I didn't post until the next day
3... The original question was about TWC. I assumed you were speaking about TWC.
4... Like I said you were off. Not totally wrong but not right either as pertaining to TWC.

5... I said you were off, not that you were wrong. It was a specific question, not about variations, not about being closed minded, not about whether it's lame or not.

Be easy.

BTW thanks to Sifu Redmond's and Sifu Parlati's technical responses. I'm only certified level 5 grade 0.:o

The question was thrown open to anyone to explain it's use, TWC or not. I would not have replied otherwise.

Phil Redmond

08-22-2003, 04:57 AM

My site was deveoped for my beginners in Wing Chun, Martial Artists from other styles, and people who have never studied MA before. The entry that you say is 'lousy" is simply one of our training drills with a cooperating partner that a beginner uses.Was it lousy because the guy just stood there or because Ryan entered from so far away. If so good. That's what I wanted to show. After practicing entering from a far distance and using proper form with a cooperating partner we add different dyanamics to the drill. Believe it or not the guy demonstrating can pull it off for real. If you will notice that he took his time to angle to the side before the entry. Showing an example for my students to view after class.
I'm not trying to show impressive fighting demos like some WC sites. My goal is to teach basics. An example of what I'm talking about is our SNT/SLT form. The lau sao, (slipping hand) is exaggerated for beginners. The circle should be tighter. I purposely had him start from far away to train bridging, timing, and to develop leg muscles. This is one of the ways we train the entry. I have had people email me regarding video clips saying that the attacker wasn't really trying to hit the person demonstrating the technique. Of coursr they're not really rying to hit each other. This reminds me of the reason people go to a car race or a Bullfight. Again, remember the video clips on my site are made to show techinques and training methods done in class. I never even consdiered making clips to impress other WC people before. Want to see real full contact sparring where an entry is sometimes used? Come to my school. Period.

Universal Stance

08-22-2003, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Edmund

The question was thrown open to anyone to explain it's use, TWC or not. I would not have replied otherwise.

The question was still about TWC. Reread the question please.

I have seen the entry techique (TWC's way) done in full speed and intention. The demos on Sifu Redmond's site are excellent but are obviously done in a manner for training purposes. To honestly think that the demos are how the technique is truly applied in real situations is not speaking very highly of yourself.

08-22-2003, 07:38 AM

Hey guys ... remember, no need to allow technical discussions to drift into something personal.

Kind Regards,
- kj

Phil Redmond

08-22-2003, 08:20 AM

Hey guys ... remember, no need to allow technical discussions to drift into something personal.
That's why I'm leaving this one alone. Opinions vary.
Thanks for the reminder Kathy.

old jong

08-22-2003, 08:25 AM

Funny how most will respect completely different martial arts and pick on a small variation in a system.

08-22-2003, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

That's why I'm leaving this one alone. Opinions vary.
Thanks for the reminder Kathy.

IMHO, you do an extraordinary job of finding the balance. Hats off to you, Phil

Regards,
- kj

Universal Stance

08-22-2003, 08:46 AM

Oops! I didn't mean to write that last line... (I have no inner monologue). JK!.

I meant to say that to a person in general, not personally you Edmund. I apologize. Please change the last word 'yourself' to 'themselves'.

I shall punish myself with grueling training and no cookies....

Savi

08-22-2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Universal Stance
I shall punish myself with grueling training and no cookies.... Don't be too harsh on yourself, you have to have cookies man!

Edmund

08-22-2003, 04:55 PM

Phil, it's not just your clips. I appreciate that the purpose of the clips. The move has been shown and explained to me before in real life. I do full contact sparring by the way. (In fact one of my sidais won his first Muay Thai match a few weeks ago.)

You guys must be ignoring the parts where I say TWC has a very good technique. Prior to my post, others were saying it is bad to even raise your knee up to enter.

But yes, please continue focusing on my criticism of the details of the technique over other people's subtle flat out rejection of it because I used the word "lame".

fa_jing

08-23-2003, 12:58 PM

I like to use a variation of that move when I am facing an opponent who is focussing on staying back and using his kicks to keep me from closing distance. In other words against a kicker.

Savi

08-23-2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by fa_jing
I like to use a variation of that move when I am facing an opponent who is focussing on staying back and using his kicks to keep me from closing distance. In other words against a kicker. Fa Jing, good to hear from you! Is this motion also in the WC you practice? What is the variation you speak of?

[Censored]

08-25-2003, 01:08 PM

Do you remember the thread on TWC anti grappling and the clip that went with it? Thats where I saw the hop knee entry thing. Go to that thread click on the link and there will be a bunch of clips to chose from.

I can't watch these videos at work, so I don't know if these are similar to the one I saw. But based on the various descriptions on this thread, I think we are talking about different things.

The technique I saw in the video was definitely a "jump" or "hop", not a "lunge". I do not intend to pick specifically on TWC on anyone else, but I want to know if that specific performance is considered technically acceptable or advisable. That's why I ask for some TWC folks to post a clip of that specific performance. Anyone is free to comment, but if I ask about an apple please do not answer about an orange.