Ng Mui Found! [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Phenix

08-20-2003, 10:03 AM

Rene, Ok Ok.

the name Ng Mui if she belongs to Shao Lin or any Buddhist group... Rinzai... or anything... it has to follow some sort of sequence.
So why NG Mui five plum?

at my search, found out that,
There is a special term for Sanchin stance in Fujian white Crane.
The term is three points five plum flower or Sum Diem Ng Mui Fa.

So, if you pice it up. The name Ng Mui is not an accident. As for the Nun. Fong Wing Chun was a nun when she was young.
And if you look at the tale of burning of Shao Lin.... at Kang Xi...

all these add up to 1644's erra, the lost of Ming, the white crane master, The nun. and there is only one of such person exist in the world.

That was Fong Chat Niong, born in 1600's fujian, creator of White Crane, a nun, and san chin is her trade mark.----- Thus, using her trade mark, three point five plum flower's five plum as her qoute name.

Believe it or not. Now, those Shao Lin WCK historian has to explain the Art of Chisim...... to be fair right? And if NG Mui exist. So who is Chisim and what is his kung fu? Thus, Miu Shun also has to exist...

ok, you can argue, nah that is not Fong Chat-niong, but then you can't argue with me about the CO-INCIDENT of the three point five plum flower term exist in White Crane. It is a Facts.
OK may be not Fong Chat Niong herself, but ok, how about Tsen four, that guy is the decendent of Fong, traveling across China, open a tofu shop... you want more. hahahhha

hahahaha, Rene, you don't know how much I still have in my garage waiting there set up for Timely release. Similar to the Vitamin C which is time release in every 2 hours.... :D
Now, I will go to China and dig out the Mummy of Wing Chun to prove you Wrong with your theory of no Wing Chun... :D ofcouse trying to blame on you on everything you do or you not. it is easy to blame and cut you down to make me famous.....hahahahaha:D

chen zhen

08-20-2003, 10:28 AM

I didnt know Hendrik changed his name..:confused:

but interesting story anyway:)

yuanfen

08-20-2003, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the heads up Rene. Hendrik is really a teaser. But his key board fingers work so fast that sometimes some things are not clear enough..

Hendrik- thanks much fo sharing... careful about wing chun's mummy... behind my old office was the Institute of Human Origins
and on some late nights me thought that "Lucy"( a protype of a first human ancestor) was knocking on my window. Creepy. Lucy was thus named aftera John Lennon song and I could hear or maybe thought I heard the faint sounds of "lucy in the sky with diamonds"!

The plum flower connection to white crane stancing is an interesting thesis. A transformed vestige remains in plum flower footwork.

But I dont know about the Fong Wing Chun connection. Some hung gar folks also refer to a fong wing chun- but I think that's a different fong. But I dont know Chinese- so what do I know.

Still -thanks--look forward to other linking-s.

joy
joy chaudhuri

reneritchie

08-20-2003, 10:53 AM

Hendrik,

Interesting speculation. I'm not sure all of it follows (if you manage to identify a person as being Ng Mui, it doesn't naturally follow there must be a Miu Shun -- that would also have to be independantly verified).

So, to boil things down, you're going with the Fujian White Crane origin story of Feng Qiniang (Fong Chut-Neung, or Fong's 6th Daughter), aka Feng Yongchun (Fong Wing-Chun -- why, because of Wingchun county, Fujian?), and saying her specialty was San Dian Wu Meihua (Saam Dim Ng Mui Fa, or 3 Point 5 Plum Blossom), which earned her the nickname Wumei (Ng Mui)?

This story would then carry down to the WCK system as the Ng Mui, Yim Wingchun legend?

Interesting, but like with others, it would have to be sourced and then properly gone through in a step by step manner.

reneritchie

08-20-2003, 10:55 AM

Joy,

Wing Chun, Hung Ga, and White Crane share almost exactly the same origin story just with variations of naming. Each one has a story where a young lady learns some type of crane art and marries a young man who helps her spread it (sometimes complicated with elements of avenging a murder, or fleshed out with her father, his knowing Tiger, or other components).

Yim Wing-Chun & Leung Bok-Lao
Fong Wing-Chun & Hung Hei-Goon
Fong Chut-Leung & Chen Jeung (? maybe remembering his name wrong)

teazer

08-20-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
found out that,
There is a special term for Sanchin stance in Fujian white Crane.
The term is three points five plum flower or Sum Diem Ng Mui Fa.

Interesting thoughts. As a minor aside, did you by any chance pick up what the three points were?

Phenix

08-20-2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Joy,

Wing Chun, Hung Ga, and White Crane share almost exactly the same origin story just with variations of naming. Each one has a story where a young lady learns some type of crane art and marries a young man who helps her spread it (sometimes complicated with elements of avenging a murder, or fleshed out with her father, his knowing Tiger, or other components).

Yim Wing-Chun & Leung Bok-Lao
Fong Wing-Chun & Hung Hei-Goon
Fong Chut-Leung & Chen Jeung (? maybe remembering his name wrong)

Hi Rene, Joy,

the Hung gar one is kind of shaws brother movies plots....

Fong Chut-Leung and Chen jeung all has the record in Fujian. and White crane of Fujian has 3 hundreds years of record. So no kidding.

As for the Ng Mui, well we find the 3 points five mui fa from the White Crane. as for the Miu Shun well we find the 12 zhuang kuits. Whether we can prof who are they? we might we might not be, depend on is ancestors going to lead me to place like dien Chun dang of Shang Hai again. But with evidents, solid evident. We can now conclude, SLT is the married of white crane and 12 zhuang, and WCK has to do with Ng Mu from the white crane side and Miu Shun for the 12 post side.

We know, White Crane and 12 post involve now. it is a matter of facts and it is going to get more and more interpolation data. No one will be able to deny it 20 years from today.

As for Yim Wing Chun, I belive she exist may be she might not know even martial art.

The reason is simple, SLT is not created by any kind of shao lin monks or advance alll those.. or a team.... no. it is not.

It is just a simple combination of Miu Shun whoever he is. after falling in love with White Crane's summon the sun, center and else concept. then, naturally merge his system with white crane. created the SLT set and system.
Then, from there it past down.

Now, what Miu Created is a set and some san sau. not as what we might believe is only san sau in the begining. this is because, if you look at White Crane, it comes with lots of san sau in the begining. as for 12 zhuang, it is a set since song dynasty. So, Miu with the influence of his original "set" type of system. and import the white crane san sau format created SLT and other san sau as explaination of usage. That is also the case of 12 zhuang and its 36 fingers technics. the 36 is applications while the 12 zhuang is the body. so there is the body and function, potential and capabilities.

That simple, then, it gets to Red boat , name it Yim's family Wing Chun. and from then. go through the painfull Taiping revolution, somebody involve with it, and then it passed to us.

Now, the name Yim Wing Chun actually should be written as the Last Name Yim and Yim Yee, the Wing Chun should be Eternal spring. Why? it is because Yim eng Chun is a polite way to called Madam Yim, the name Yim Eng Chun or evelasting spring from Yim family also can serve as differentiate the art from fujian due to they look similar. but one is past down by the Yim family.
Now, why she was called Yim Wing Chun and not Yim Chi similar to Hsu Chi. whoever her real name is? The reason is similar to Fong Wing Chun. We as chinese don't call her Fong Chat-Leong because that is impolite.
So we call her Fong Wing Chun. and the same with Yim Wing Chun.

Then, there comes the opera team and the people who train in it must be the man actor who play woman and so fort who is in the more schollar role then the more martial role. Now, they then called it Wing Chun as the praise the spring which might be related to the Dim Chun Dang of Shang Hai explaination. The art of the one who sing opera.

Very simple thing. and using the Discovery channel launguage, I would say, this is more likely since there are lots of indication and evidents which grouping tighter and tighter these days.

Then, certainly, history was made. more and more. because those who teaches it following the chinese patern of making bigger scene to promote the art.

See, may be we should ask those other historians who believe WCK is from Shao Lin..... to come up with the same amount of imformation to present.
if they can't but keep staying in the general chinese history level and hung mun level but not into specific technical term which can link up to 1644 and beyon then, they don't have it. and may be time to jump boat because the longer it drags the deeper it will be sinking. IMHO.

Just my two crazy cent. but as long as ancestors keeps feed me I will stay crazy. hahahaha

Phenix

08-20-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by teazer

Interesting thoughts. As a minor aside, did you by any chance pick up what the three points were?

hahahhaa, you might want to ask Rene on the list. hahaa

teazer

08-20-2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
hahahhaa, you might want to ask Rene on the list. hahaa

I might just do that. So glad to have brightened your day Hendrik !!??

old jong

08-20-2003, 01:04 PM

An early "portrait" of Ng Mui....We have to consider the fact that Wing Chun was created a lot earlier in times than it was actually believed!... (http://www.columbia.edu/~rk2143/web/australopithecus/afarensis.jpg)

yuanfen

08-20-2003, 02:04 PM

Old Jong- Lucy supposedly was older than that.
Still-note the structural efficiency in holding the baby.

CHS

08-21-2003, 01:21 AM

See, may be we should ask those other historians who believe WCK is from Shao Lin..... to come up with the same amount of imformation to present.

Question, have the HFY historians ever looked into this possible theory while researching the shaolin one?

CHS

Tom Kagan

08-21-2003, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
Ng Mui was found a while ago. From the white Crane of Fujian.
Believe it or not.

Found? Who thinks she was lost in the first place?

I am aware of more than a few people who could properly introduce someone, if they were so inclined.

:D

reneritchie

08-21-2003, 07:53 AM

Pretty cheap promotional ploy from Tom for his "Five Elders Dating Game", new on digital cable...

;)

Phenix

08-21-2003, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

Found? Who thinks she was lost in the first place?

I am aware of more than a few people who could properly introduce someone, if they were so inclined.

:D

Hey Tom,

Are you ready to be born again WC? Are you ready? Say NG Mui!
Say Ng Mui ! :D

Phenix

08-21-2003, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Pretty cheap promotional ploy from Tom for his "Five Elders Dating Game", new on digital cable...

;)

Sam Diem (same with Haliluya) !
we all born again WC in the digital Matrix way!
Are you converted yet? :)

Phenix

08-21-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by CHS

Question, have the HFY historians ever looked into this possible theory while researching the shaolin one?

CHS

CHS,

"I" don't like to be rigid and I am trying to understand what the VTM historians did. So far it is not satifiying since their research doesn't link direct to WCK but general history of China and Hung Mun and Chinese opera and Shao LIn in the south...

Certainly, VTM can have their own view.... and it is valid because it is a free world and who is perfect? However, "my" opinion is with VTM claiming other lineage is less then HFY and Chisim are hard to have credential without factual evidents. It is not about taking a photos of Shao LIn or sharing tradition. Those cannot replace cross examination of factual evidents if the research of the root is serious. Say, the possibilities of Ng Mui identity can be identify via the history / technical record of White Crane Wing Chun. Now, we need to do with Chisim. As for Miu Shun, we also has history/ technical identity we can link to the goldern summit of Emei mountain.... "I' presume Chisim exist because if Ng Mui exist and Miu Shun exist. there is no reason to believe chisim doesn't exit. and we certainly can identify him or an area of possible "him exist."

NOw, with the evident such as Dien Chun Dang, The slogan and writing of the top official of the Small Knife society....which fit into the Redboat opera code...
The Ng Mui related Sam Diem Ng Mui Fa,
The connection of technical details with White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian, and more...
and all data is converging in, we can see the big pictures and it is only a matter of time to interpolate the detail of the big picture.

Certainly, IMHO, VTM has to come up with something specific and details. Certainly "I" do undestand people love thier own lineage and thinking thier is the greatest. Since we are human, that is very acceptable. However, when it comes to make claims and influencing others, IMHO, one has to be carefull because without factual evidents, as the chinese said, paper cannot wrap fire. Certainly, IMHO, "i" hope VTM change thier direction and really look as the thing as it is. That way everyone will benifit.

As the Chinese Said, the honest royal word always against the ear or doesn't sound great. IMHO, it is no use to argue with the factual evidents because no one can go back to the past and fix things to be as one likes it. and with trying to fix the past but cannot get there, one get into alots of mental and emotional blocks which will take other hostile. and trying to use brute force to force others.

"I" hope everyone doing well and who is perfect? everyone can change to better. Truely.
So why is history important? because it will solve the training method of SLT and let us have more insight about what is going on in the past, understand the training and if we need to improve it, we know what and how to. Otherwise, WCK will be extinct 20years from today. the name might be still there but what is WCK then?

Just some thought, again, "I" am not against anyone, Technical talk is technical talk. That's it.

Savi

08-21-2003, 09:17 AM

Only quoting what I think is misguided...

Originally posted by Phenix
"I" don't like to be rigid and I am trying to understand what the VTM historians did. So far it is not satifiying since their research doesn't link direct to WCK but general history of China and Hung Mun and Chinese opera and Shao LIn in the south...
Haven't really read the articles have you?

Originally posted by Phenix
Certainly, VTM can have their own view.... and it is valid because it is a free world and who is perfect? However, "my" opinion is with VTM claiming other lineage is less then HFY and Chisim are hard to have credential without factual evidents. This is not true, to say the least. The VTM has never claimed, feels nor believes what you're saying about "less then HFY or Chisim" to be truthful.

Originally posted by Phenix
It is not about taking a photos of Shao LIn or sharing tradition. Those cannot replace cross examination of factual evidents if the research of the root is serious...... Certainly, IMHO, VTM has to come up with something specific and details. Certainly "I" do undestand people love thier own lineage and thinking thier is the greatest. Since we are human, that is very acceptable. The VTM is not in the field to promote ego.

Originally posted by Phenix
However, when it comes to make claims and influencing others, IMHO, one has to be carefull because without factual evidents, as the chinese said, paper cannot wrap fire. Certainly, IMHO, "i" hope VTM change thier direction and really look as the thing as it is. That way everyone will benifit. Your opinion about the VTM really shows with this comment.

Originally posted by Phenix
IMHO, it is no use to argue with the factual evidents because no one can go back to the past and fix things to be as one likes it. and with trying to fix the past but cannot get there, one get into alots of mental and emotional blocks which will take other hostile. and trying to use brute force to force others.

Just some thought, again, "I" am not against anyone, Technical talk is technical talk. That's it. Noticeably again Hendrik, your defensiveness towards the VTM research is not necessary. This last quote says much about how you feel about the VTM, but take note that the VTM does not in any way shape or form force others to do anything. Take it as you will. Whatever you feel compelled to do, it comes from you and no one else.

Good luck with your findings in the White Crane. But for someone who is not against anyone, HENDRIK, you have a lot to say about the Ving Tsun Museum. Your opinions about the merit of the VTM are far from reality. Suffice to say, you do not understand the people of VTM staff, their character or their intentions. From your post above, I'd have to say you never really read the work that the VTM has provided in an objective manner either, have you? Your bias is understandable, but not applicable to the VTM. Do not mistake your feelings for the truth. Persuading people to accept your information does not require bashing other research parties. This is what ruins the forum, if you haven't picked up on that yet. People are getting very tired of these antics.

Again good luck with your research, it sounds very interesting. Keep it up. And stop bashing third parties.

Savi

08-21-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by CHS
Question, have the HFY historians ever looked into this possible theory while researching the shaolin one?

CHS Hello CHS, I do not believe they have gone into the history of White Crane. When they came across the Southern Shaolin families of Wing Chun, and from what I understand, they are currently devoting their efforts into getting the full history on these systems.

Phenix

08-21-2003, 10:44 AM

Good luck with your findings in the White Crane. ---S

Thanks and actually that is great for eveyone isn't it? It is not Finding White Crane but Finding NG MUi the ancestor of WCK.
I think eveyone is happy. And there is the 3 points and 5 plumflower also which will give people insight . --HS

But for someone who is not against anyone, HENDRIK, you have a lot to say about the Ving Tsun Museum. Your opinions about the merit of the VTM are far from reality. ---S

Savi, all historians has be be able to take critics. Is critics Against? Rene critics me too Joy disagree with me too. Phil disagree with me too. So, are they against me. No. --HS

Suffice to say, you do not understand the people of VTM staff, their character or their intentions. From your post above, I'd have to say you never really read the work that the VTM has provided in an objective manner either, have you? Your bias is understandable, but not applicable to the VTM. -S

Savi, VTM published that article that claim that HYF and Chisim is the Oldest of WCK right?
So, is that an objective manner? or I am bias?
Certainly, you can look at it is my bias and VTM is objective. --HS

Do not mistake your feelings for the truth. Persuading people to accept your information does not require bashing other research parties. This is what ruins the forum, if you haven't picked up on that yet. People are getting very tired of these antics. --S

Savi, when one wants to learn about something. Say about China before Culture revolution. People has to go to Taiwan, Korea, Japan, South East asia to collect informations data to see how it converge. Not to take the HIs-story of the Communist Historians, it happen all in the Chinese history that people making up history.

You can call historical evidents antics. sure, That is how you look at it. But, does one even have an antics to show? such as the lineage of Chan? the Chan master who passed the teaching?

Back to the Ng Mui,
Some ignore Ng Mui, purposely or not purposely, in thier research disregard of our GM from Yip Man to YKS to Cho On to Ku Lao... documents about Ng Mui.
Here, to post about NG Mui and links is that wrong ? how about compare when someone publishing article claiming Tan Sau Ng as the founder and ignore Ng Mui? As a decendent of NG MUI, "I" am certainly not tired to find out NG MUI is real and NG Mui's Martial art system at Ng Mui's time. "I' am not interested in Tan Sau Ng but ok to read about it because He is not my ancestor.

The is no feelings for truth, real science and engineering has to base on repeatiblelity and convergences of Data. A claim without supporting data is not science. . --HS

Again good luck with your research, it sounds very interesting. Keep it up. And stop bashing third parties. ----S

You sure can take anything "I' post as bashing. That is your choice not mine. Good luck for your researh. And since according to Buddhism, All phenomenon has no "self". if somedays you find my "bias" is the facts and admit it. That is just a process of learning. and "I" will do the same because we are just human. -HS

Rolling_Hand

08-21-2003, 05:42 PM

<<But for someone who is not against anyone, HENDRIK, you have a lot to say about the Ving Tsun Museum. Your opinions about the merit of the VTM are far from reality........ Donot mistake your feelings for the truth. Persuading people to accept your information does not require bashing other research parties. This is what ruins the forum, if you haven't picked up on that yet. People are getting very tired of these antics.>>Savi

--Yes, I agree with you. People are getting very tired of these antics. What stuffs Hendrik has a lot to say about ?????.... White Crane??? Water plam??? MTV??? and his Emie family is supposed to be the mother of all WCK blab blab blab??? He just can't leave his stuffs at home!!!!!!!! Frustration with not finding what he's after stems from expctations that have out lived their purpose. How many topics Hendrik has posted here so far? Just too many to count!!!!!!--RH

<<Again good luck with your research, it sounds very interesting. Keep it up. And stop bashing third parties.>>Savi

--Well said, civility is pushed to a limit. Everyone's feeling led in circles and like they're going nowhere fast. Your good humor buoys spirits.--RH

<<You sure can take anything "I' post as bashing. That is your choice not mine. Good luck for your researh. And since according to Buddhism, All phenomenon has no "self". if somedays you find my "bias" is the facts and admit it. That is just a process of learning. and "I" will do the same because we are just human.>>-HS

--Hendrik, it's time for a clean slate. A certain someone cramps your style. But take a moment to consider criticisms. Perhaps what bothers you most is that this person is right. On another note, please leave this word "Buddhism" behind, then you would learn a little bit more about yourself.--RH

yuanfen

08-21-2003, 06:08 PM

Hendrik sez:

Is critics Against? Rene critics me too Joy disagree with me too. Phil disagree with me too. So, are they against me. No. --HS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct IMO. Discussing things- presenting one's case- citing the best available evidence- tolerating honest differences of opinion-
hallmarksof good discourse. Often forums fail on that score.

Phenix

08-21-2003, 06:44 PM

--Yes, I agree with you. People are getting very tired of these antics. What stuffs Hendrik has a lot to say about ?????.... White Crane??? Water plam??? MTV??? and his Emie family is supposed to be the mother of all WCK blab blab blab???
He just can't leave his stuffs at home!!!!!!!! Frustration with not finding what he's after stems from expctations that have out lived their purpose. How many topics Hendrik has posted here so far? Just too many to count!!!!!!--RH

Thanks for you opinion.

You don't have to believe or agree with my post.

How about this, put it in writting you dont believe WCK is from White Crane and Emei. That simple.

As for how many I post here, you are free to ignore. --HS

--Hendrik, it's time for a clean slate. A certain someone cramps your style. But take a moment to consider criticisms. Perhaps what bothers you most is that this person is right. On another note, please leave this word "Buddhism" behind, then you would learn a little bit more about yourself.--RH

Hey bro, hahahahaha, so no lineage and mind seal ya? no evidents with WCK history also. Why get mad? this is about NG Mui. Sorry to disappointed you the NG MUI exist and NG MUI's martial art system can be traced and very well preserve in different area and in writing. Even Qing Gorvement writing.

Now, you don't like all of these? Just ignore my post. because more evidents in details is going to be present here.

The water hand, the summon sun, the center line theory, the ........ when SLT is created.... with history evidents cross lineage and cross martial art systems. ....
I am very sure it is boring to some so ignore it. No problem.

Thanks for your great oppinion. Next time please comment more and please if possible also bring up into very specific details to prove my information is wrong. Thanks in advance.

For those who is interested in Here is the Ng Mui's system and the sisters art of WCK.

http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/

Starts around 1644 until today, the details names, the evolution, the 1900's champion fighter of white crane......
Don't we expect something like this ?

Chango

08-21-2003, 07:18 PM

Hello Joy!

Hendrik wrote: How about this, put it in writting you dont believe WCK is from White Crane and Emei. That simple.

Hendrik,
I don't doubt that your lineage is connected to White crane! suprize! suprize! I don't make any assumptions about your lineage but really how much do you really know about HFY and Chi Sim? BTW Are you an authority on your own lineage? I'm not sure I have seen anyone from your lineage confirming your claims of that lineage. please point me to this information so I know that your peers feel that you worthy of representing your family. Nothing personal just would like to know who I'm speaking too and how much wieght your word holds.

Sifu Chango Noaks

Phenix

08-21-2003, 08:07 PM

Chango,

I don't doubt that your lineage is connected to White crane! suprize! suprize! ----C

Great to have open mind. -HS

I don't make any assumptions about your lineage but really how much do you really know about HFY and Chi Sim? --C

Since you don't make any assumption about my lineage, so do you agree with VTM claims that HFY and Chi Sim are the oldest WCK as said in the article?

I read most of the printed information about HFY and Chi Sim both in English and in Chinese.
Have met Benny and Andreas , has spend time to talk and saw thier presentation in person. And, I am not representing HFY or CHi Sim. --HS

BTW Are you an authority on your own lineage?
I'm not sure I have seen anyone from your lineage confirming your claims of that lineage. please point me to this information so I know that your peers feel that you worthy of representing your family. ---C

Let's say,
if you post the above questions to Garret Gee instead of me,
Will Garret answer you in public? What do you think ? -HS

Nothing personal just would like to know who I'm speaking too and how much wieght your word holds. --C

There is a saying in WCK, atleast I saw it in YM lineage article somewhere and my lineage ,(But, I don't know if your lineage has the same saying.) that " learning is not about who (learn) earlier or later, he who master the topic is the teacher".

IMHO, when discuss about technical history research,
Facture evidents speak for it self, not the person who present them.

Any body can present thier case,
Can be me can be you. as soon as you have the factual evidents you can be right and I will agree with you.
So, evidentally we have a different way of looking things. Nothing good or bad just different ways.

return to the topic about Ng Mui,
what do you think about Ng Mui, Since YM, YKS, Cho On credit him as a founder of WCK?

BTW, Chango, it is not about who win or lost, it is about to find out what really happen in the development of WCK and present it the best as we know. and, all of our name stick with what we present. no one will be able to change it later. If I am wrong I go down with it evelasting in the history of WCK. If other wrong he will go down with it. since you are an open minded guy, think about it.

Chango

08-21-2003, 08:46 PM

Hendrick wrote:Let's say,
if you post the above questions to Garret Gee instead of me,
Will Garret answer you in public? What do you think ? -HS

Hendrick I have never seen anyone post about your great skill level! From what I've been told it seems you are bankrupt or somewhere close to it in the skill department. Having said that Sigung Gee simply has the skill, technical knowlege and historical knowlege to back up all of his claims. From what I have gathered everyone who has met him in person seems to agree. GM Hoffman openly displays his great skill, technical and historical knowlege to back up his claims as well. Hendrick where are your skills outside of this ciber world?

Let's just cut to the chase here Hendrick I hear alot of talk. but can you walk the walk? LOL! Once again this isn't ballet that we are discussing here. Do you have the skill to even mention yourself in the same breath as these two true Masters? so it would be good that you didn't. I think my dear sweet grand mother use to say it best "Now baby don't let mouth write a ticket that your a$$ can't cash!" ROFLOL!

So the question still stands! before you talk about going down in WCK history! who the hell are you? what witnesses do you have to confirm your Skills outside of the ciber world? I'll be ready to post again once the crickets stop chirping!!!! ROFLOL!

Sifu Chango Noaks :D

Phenix

08-21-2003, 09:13 PM

Chango,

:Let's say,
if you post the above questions to Garret Gee instead of me,
Will Garret answer you in public? What do you think ? -HS

Hendrick I have never seen anyone post about your great skill level! From what I've been told it seems you are bankrupt or somewhere close to it in the skill department. --C

This topic is about Ng Mui and history research not about discussing personal skill right? As for what you heard you can believe what you like. If I am bankrupt, I am. if I am not. I am not. No one can change reality, right? --HS

Having said that Sigung Gee simply has the skill, technical knowlege and historical knowlege to back up all of his claims. From what I have gathered everyone who has met him in person seems to agree. GM Hoffman openly displays his great skill, technical and historical knowlege to back up his claims as well. Hendrick where are your skills outside of this ciber world? ---C

Certainly, Garret and Andreas are great! I heard great things about both of them.

Can you please re read my question carefully? before drag into other topic?

As for my skill outside this ciber world? I know how to drive, how to read road sign and trafic light, how to flip hambuger to make a living. I read chinese Classic also not much but enough. --HS

Let's just cut to the chase here Hendrick I hear alot of talk. but can you walk the walk? LOL! Once again this isn't ballet that we are discussing here.
Do you have the skill to even mention yourself in the same breath as these two true Masters? --C

THis is about researh in history right? Not about ballet and skill.
So you can prove me wrong about my his-story with evidents and certainly I can learn from you about history if you are right.--HS

so it would be good that you didn't. I think my dear sweet grand mother use to say it best "Now baby don't let mouth write a ticket that your a$$ can't cash!" ROFLOL! ---C

I agree with you totally. Since I post my view here and the evidents. Certainly you can kick my a$$ by presenting what I am wrong. And I am just human. I can be wrong too right? -HS

So the question still stands! who the hell are you? what witnesses do you have to confirm your Skills ? I'll be ready to post again once the crickets stop chirping!!!! ROFLOL! --C

I live in USA, have a working permit for flipping hambuger.
I have a driving licence to drive in America. I think DMV will not issue me a licence to drive if they didn't confirm my skill right?

Now, please get back to NG Mui. That it the title of this discussion right? not Hendrik. And it doesn't matter who Hendrik is. It is about history research not about Hendrik..

Since you are an open minded guy, those questions I post still stand, and will love to hear your opion about Ng Mui.

As for anything outside the Ng Mui topic, sorry Chango, I am not interested in discussing. If for some reason you like to Win over me. Ok you Win. Hope that you are happy and in peace. Thanks and appreciated. Good luck.

canglong

08-21-2003, 10:41 PM

original posted by Rolling_Hand
Frustration with not finding what he's after stems from expctations that have out lived their purpose.
True.

original posted by Noaks Sifu
Do you have the skill to even mention yourself in the same breath as these two true Masters?
No.

at my search, found out that,
There is a special term for Sanchin stance in Fujian white Crane.
The term is three points five plum flower or Sum Diem Ng Mui Fa.--HS
...and this is evidents? Next topic please.

Mr Punch

08-21-2003, 11:07 PM

Thanks for the info Hendrik, Phenix or whatever, sir.

I have no way of researching any of this historical stuff so it's always interesting, whether you're right or wrong.

As for the rest of you, I've been coming to this board for over two years, and I tend to notice that Hendrik, whoever the hell he may be, generally doesn't start the grief. It seems to me that what happens is he writes some interesting theory or conjecture, and some bright spark starts defending some perceived attack and accusing him of being a failure in some way, or of being as paranoid as they appear.

I never got involved in any of this **** because I don't know any of the protagonists or the history, and even if i did, I have better ways of spending my time... so I'd just like to say, I am completely balanced about this, and to the outside observer, all of the guys from the VTM who harp on at Hendrix just appear childish over the net.

The VTM and its website seem pretty interesting. The people on this board (an information exchange remember?!) who claim to stand up for it are bringing it into disrepute every time they mention it.

Thank you again Hendrik, interesting speculation/research, whatever you want to call it. And thank you to any of the historians on the board who may have something useful to contribute the study of any of the possible histories of our art.

And the rest of you, thanks for coming...:rolleyes:

edit: for a missing 'g'!

CHS

08-22-2003, 01:02 AM

Sifu Chango said:

Hendrick I have never seen anyone post about your great skill level! From what I've been told it seems you are bankrupt or somewhere close to it in the skill department.....

This is really NOT a quality comment from a "sifu". Please stick to the topic of debate, i.e. Ng Mui vs Tan Sau Ng... ok sifu? :eek:

Matt said:

.... I am completely balanced about this, and to the outside observer, all of the guys from the VTM who harp on at Hendrix just appear childish over the net.

Isn't interesting to note that Sifu Chango's comment just proved the above statement.

Let's stick to the point and no personal attacks. They don't reflect well on you, especially those with the Sifu Title! ;)

Mr Punch

08-22-2003, 01:20 AM

:eek:

OMG what have I done!

Since I referred to HFY people as VTM people in my above post, it appears I haven't in fact been folowing this BS as much as I thought... oh well, my loss :rolleyes:

Just realised there's five pages of this **** going on on another thread.

Chango

08-22-2003, 01:39 AM

Hendrick,
Hendrick wrote:I agree with you totally. Since I post my view here and the evidents. Certainly you can kick my a$$ by presenting what I am wrong. And I am just human. I can be wrong too right? -HS

--You fail to realize that I have no interest in bickering or "proving anybody wrong" I have so many better things to do with my time then debate. I have read your findings and logic flow I can see why YOU would support this information. I have no problem with that. I would have no problem with this thread if you did not out right belittle and attack the research being done by the VTM.

Have you thought maybe you cannot see beyond your seeming need to debate or prove your point??!!! Maybe you just want ot prove the VTM wrong? I don't know or care at this point. but the VTM has always simply printed (articles) and posted (web page) it's findings. You can agree or disagree that is fine. You can plead your case all over. This may satisfiy you. But you have to realize the VTM does not have to debate you everytime you think you have proof of a nun in the 1600'sor a white crane connection. That is why I ask you "who are you?" are you the "Cho family representative?" why do you feel so important? Do you really feel that the VTM should hang on your words debating your every theory? simply on the merit that it doesn't agree with the VTM's findings? Come on Hendrick let's put more time in the thing's that you listed as your skills.

Hello Mat,
I read your last post. I have to say that I myself a member of the VTM found no reason to post on this thread at first. As I have said in the past Hendrick's theories and Ideas are his own and I take no issue with him. But these are his words so at this point if felt the need to respond.

Hendrick wrote:"I" don't like to be rigid and I am trying to understand what the VTM historians did. So far it is not satifiying since their research doesn't link direct to WCK but general history of China and Hung Mun and Chinese opera and Shao LIn in the south...

Hendrick wrote:Certainly, IMHO, "i" hope VTM change thier direction and really look as the thing as it is. That way everyone will benifit.

--- Here he even belittles the work and research done by the VTM at a high cost of time and resources .

Hendrick wrote: It is not about taking a photos of Shao LIn or sharing tradition. Those cannot replace cross examination of factual evidents if the research of the root is serious...... Certainly, IMHO, VTM has to come up with something specific and details. Certainly "I" do undestand people love thier own lineage and thinking thier is the greatest. Since we are human, that is very acceptable.

Certianly the VTM's research has gone beyond "Photos" and "sharing tradition"
So Mat What I'm saying is that I would have ignored this thread as I have many of his other threads with out response. It's nothing personal but I find most of them very time consuming. Considering I view this board as source of entertainment. I had and have no problems with his Ng Mui/White crane business until he directed his statement directly at the VTM. I don't speak for the VTM but as a member I have duty to defend it when someone is out right attacking the VTM. Down playing the work that goes on there.

So Mat I will say I'm sorry that you feel the way that you do about how the VTM people are handling the outright attacks. But you must remember that I'm not interested in a debate. A debate is only one by he who is a better debater not always by the who is correct. He can believe what he wants and post all he wants with out the attacks.

I love the fact that Hendrick is presenting what he thinks. Once the VTM reveals alot of current info he will have and opertunity to rehash his thoughts that's fine. But he should not belittle others doing research after presenting his ideas. He has issues with the VTM and should handle those privatelyand Not here! that is my case and point!

as far as I'm concerned He could write about Ng Mui found doing an album with Dr Dre, 50 cent and Eminem or what ever! LOL! I have no problem with that but he should do so with out the attacks and suttle insults.

I make it a point asking him how much of these two systems has he really seen becuase these systems themselves serve as artifacts pointing to thier Shaolin history. If he has not seen this in them I can only say that he has not seen enough and should make an effort to get more information before making a call. well I have put far to much time in on the internet tonight!

Peace my fellow martial artist. I hope you all find fulfillment in your practices.

Sifu Chango Noaks

Chango

08-22-2003, 01:51 AM

CHS wrote:This is really NOT a quality comment from a "sifu". Please stick to the topic of debate, i.e. Ng Mui vs Tan Sau Ng... ok sifu?

--- you apparently missed my point but I will say once again friend I did not join this discussion for a debate. It is not my duty to prove anyone wrong. I have no attachments to his "theorys" and "Ideas"

--- these are my words CHS

But you must remember that I'm not interested in a debate. A debate is only won by he who is a better debater not always by the who is correct. He can believe what he wants and post all he wants with out the attacks.

I make it a point asking him how much of these two systems has he really seen becuase these systems themselves serve as artifacts pointing to thier Shaolin history. If he has not seen this in them I can only say that he has not seen enough and should make an effort to get more information before making a call.

---I hope this helps you better understand thing from my P.O.V. CHS good day!

Sifu Chango Noaks

Mr Punch

08-22-2003, 02:13 AM

Thanks Chango, I appreciate your taking the time to reply.

As I said, I'm not going to get involved, but it did seem that Hendrik's comments to the VTM were in response to previous attacks from other members. And it also seems that his 'suttle insults' would best be left unnoticed by the world in general. It's only people as knowledgeable as the VTM members that seem to perceive them as insults!

And your answer to Hendrik starts by saying 'I don't want to bicker' and then starts asking him loads of picky points, and asking him what he's got against the VTM and who he even is!!!...

... a (maybe) wise man once said
'Knowing when to shut up: priceless'
Time for me to shut up... and maybe some others!:D

Thanks again. Enjoy your training.

black and blue

08-22-2003, 05:54 AM

Chango says to Hendrik

Hendrick I have never seen anyone post about your great skill level! From what I've been told it seems you are bankrupt or somewhere close to it in the skill department. Having said that Sigung Gee simply has the skill, technical knowlege and historical knowlege to back up all of his claims.

This is exactly what I was talking about in the other thread. A HFY Sifu (???) posts on an open forum and before you know it he's insulting someone by questioning their skill... when the thread isn't even about skill. If Hendrik had studied the history of WCK for 50 years but only practised the art for one, does that make his knowledge and ideas worthless?

:(

This is like me posting a thread about Chango's teaching ability and then saying he's fat... something that has diddly squat to do with his skill. A good Sifu shouldn't be as fat as Chango. Now how stupid does that last sentence sound? :rolleyes:

Your lineage's forum has a quote about family... you are doing yours an injustice, IMO.

teazer

08-22-2003, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by canglong

...and this is evidents?

Anything related to the topic is evidence, so yes. It alone wouldn't be considered 'proof' by a long stretch, but it is certainly interesting. At least to me.

reneritchie

08-22-2003, 07:23 AM

First I would like to take the opportunity to thank the VTM and Hendrik for all they do to not only present information on WCK's origins, but to help create the environment where people actively become involved in the discussion.

That not everyone agrees helps all the more, as it feuls the environment, the discussion, and lends passion to the work.

Unfortunately, we don't always conduct ourselves as maturely, as professionally as possible. But then I've seen some academics go at it in English Lit, in Theoretical Physics, in Philosophy, and by comparison we look like downright statesmen.

That said, most of the proceeding posts are silly. Instead of tearing each other down, why not build yourselves up?

I'm interested in what everyone has to say about WCK origins but I could care less what you have to say about each other.

The VTM, as far as I know, has a good number of connections and resources and their travel allows them to collect a good ammount of information, and their numbers gives them a good workforce for going through it and composing their theories. When presented, agree or disagree, it should take the discussion to the next level and provide reams of new material to consider. Because their are a lot of them, and several very active, it can mistakenly be assumed they speak for the larger body, but as individuals they must be allowed their individual opinions, and the VTM (& HFY) its official ones.

Hendrik, as far as I know, is successor in writing to Cho Hung-Choi, the only person to have studied under both Cho Chuen (Mainland) and Cho On (Malaysia), lineage inheritors of the Cho Family of Wing Chun. While publically people will always make their own claims, when anyone outside China wants info on Cho family (including all the sifu in Malaysia and Singapore), they go to Hendrik, and he generously provides it, asking nothing in return. That he doesn't have an interest in promoting himself, even when others mistakenly see fit to insult him, IMHO credits him all the more. And while I don't know if his theories will pan out, I also look forward to seeing more of them, and the discussion they will generate.

While, sadly, I now exit another thread ruined by senseless bickering, it's with some hope that the growing pains experienced are harbingers of the mature exchanges that will follow.

Fashizzel my Wingchizzels

reneritchie

08-22-2003, 07:36 AM

PS.

So that no one here is mislead, Hendrik is exceptionally skilled. Scarily skilled. Even though he gave up WCK for Buddhism, he is still one of the best I've had the good fortune to encounter. His background in full contacting fighting from Malaysia gives him a very realistic view of applicable fighting skill, and his knowledge of TCM and related matters lets him put it together into a very heuristic whole.

Esoteric it might be. Complex at times. But the scariest WCK I've yet to encounter, and the best documented and most finely detailed.

Don't anyone cheat themselves out of a chance to experience it personally if you're ever so fortunate. If you want to see the Cho WCK system (not Choi Lay Fut or Hung Ga or their other systems), invite Hendrik out for Yum Cha.

Savi

08-22-2003, 07:51 AM

Just to reiterate some (but not all of the) fine points made by my Sibaak. Black and Blue, the grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence for everyone doesn't it? A defense is a resonse to an offense. Cause and effect. We are all victims of "Cause-ality" as the french speaking trafficker of information calls it...

Originally posted by Chango
I have read your findings and logic flow I can see why YOU would support this information. I have no problem with that. I would have no problem with this thread if you did not out right belittle and attack the research being done by the VTM.
Sifu Chango Noaks Excellent point. No need to compare himself to the VTM. Just present his findings and leave it as it is.
Originally posted by Chango
Maybe you just want to prove the VTM wrong? I don't know or care at this point. but the VTM has always simply printed (articles) and posted (web page) it's findings. You can agree or disagree that is fine.
Sifu Chango Noaks Good point here as well. I do not know why people are compelled to accuse the VTM of "brainwashing" the public into believing what they publish. People believe whatever they want to believe, yet Hendrik and others continue to repeat false claims against the VTM regarding their issues.
Originally posted by Chango
But you have to realize the VTM does not have to debate you everytime you think you have proof of a nun in the 1600'sor a white crane connection.
Sifu Chango Noaks Again, we are only refuting his misguided insinuations regarding the VTM's efforts and findings. Should we be faulted for protecting others from attacks?
Originally posted by Chango
I have to say that I myself a member of the VTM found no reason to post on this thread at first. As I have said in the past Hendrick's theories and Ideas are his own and I take no issue with him. But these are his words so at this point if felt the need to respond.......I had and have no problems with his Ng Mui/White crane business until he directed his statement directly at the VTM. I don't speak for the VTM but as a member I have duty to defend it when someone is out right attacking the VTM. Down playing the work that goes on there.
Sifu Chango Noaks Well put. This is true as well for me. I also respectfully left this thread alone until I found Hendrik seeping the same old comments about the VTM in as he has done for so long. If these comments continue to go unnoticed, the public will eventually believe them. Repeat a lie so many times, starts to sound true... as somebody said a while back here. After a history of doing this on several forums, Hendrik knows what he is doing when he says those things.

Not to take up any more space of Hendrik's thread, unless anyone else has further questions about our intentions or actions defending the VTM... hopefully there is someone out there that also feels the comments made by Hendrik regarding the VTM are quite childish and unnecessary. His findings, again I find them interesting.

08-22-2003, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
That said, most of the proceeding posts are silly. Instead of tearing each other down, why not build yourselves up?

I'm interested in what everyone has to say about WCK origins but I could care less what you have to say about each other.

Amen to that, and to the many others who thought to mention how unnecessary it is to become personal.
- kj

method man

08-22-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Chango
Hendrick I have never seen anyone post about your great skill level! From what I've been told it seems you are bankrupt or somewhere close to it in the skill department.

u sound like the ex-myor of new york. you agreed w/him or your corrupt incompetent stupid jealous or something like that

PaulH

08-22-2003, 08:18 AM

Hey Hendrik,

Sound like you are good. Are you good enough to dim sum with me soon? Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

08-22-2003, 08:49 AM

I understand where Chango comes from. But, I don't think I have the intend as he though I had. As the Chinese Said, " the one who speak has not heart, the one who listern has intend.

Thank you everyone. May be it is a time for all of us to meditate on what can we improve instead of what is other's wrong, who is perfect? There is no end to attact and counter attact.
There is no end in mis-comprehend what other means.
"I" am still learning and keeping learn from everyone. IMHO.

Phenix

08-22-2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hey Hendrik,

Sound like you are good. Are you good enough to dim sum with me soon? Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Paul,

You don't want to have dim sum with me. "I" am not good enough in WCK. These day "I" don't even know how to kill an ant. Honest. May be totally "bancrupt" is a good word of my WCK if I can borrowed it from Chango but without sacastic intend.

Just a few weeks ago,
I spent from dinner time to mid night with Sifu Robert Chu preaching him buddhism and had not talk about a single Tan Sau. "I' must be bored him to death.
Rene is right my priority is studying Buddhism now. So I love to preach Buddhism. This sunday there will be a Buddhist lecture by one of the Buddhist monk in San Jose in Vietnamness if you are interested. (side topic)

Let me tell you a story since you starting and ask for it.
Here it goes....

HOte or the fat buddha or the buddha of prosperity/good luck or the reincarnation of Matiya boddhisatva speak a stanza once about No self or Immoveable Wisdom or Samadhi. (watch out all those samadhi, immoveable wisdom, unfletter mind...this is a bait to convert you into buddhism)

When there is a person scold me,
"I' would say it is great!
When there is a person beating me,
"I" would lay on the ground myself.
When there is a person spit at me.
"I" would let it dry by itself.
that way, that person free of anger and "I" waste less energy.

"I" think that is alots to learn from these then those Kuen Kuit, or history, or scary WCK......

When an art cannot bring one peace but burning in fire of anger. that is no so good. but the technics bring peace to the other and oneself is better right?

so are you agree with me and convert into Buddist now? :D

Peace.

return to the Ng Mui history subject is better. otherwise we are out of topic.

PaulH

08-22-2003, 09:19 AM

No problem. We can just talk. I don't expect anythings in particular from you beside the honest pleasure of meeting and having a conversation with you just the way you are. Why spend needless energy to maintain our "ego"?

On Friendship
And a youth said, "Speak to us of Friendship."

Your friend is your needs answered.

He is your field which you sow with love and reap with thanksgiving.

And he is your board and your fireside.

For you come to him with your hunger, and you seek him for peace.

When your friend speaks his mind you fear not the "nay" in your own mind, nor do you withhold the "ay."

And when he is silent your heart ceases not to listen to his heart;

For without words, in friendship, all thoughts, all desires, all expectations are born and shared, with joy that is unacclaimed.

When you part from your friend, you grieve not;

For that which you love most in him may be clearer in his absence, as the mountain to the climber is clearer from the plain.

And let there be no purpose in friendship save the deepening of the spirit.

For love that seeks aught but the disclosure of its own mystery is not love but a net cast forth: and only the unprofitable is caught.

And let your best be for your friend.

If he must know the ebb of your tide, let him know its flood also.

For what is your friend that you should seek him with hours to kill?

Seek him always with hours to live.

For it is his to fill your need, but not your emptiness.

And in the sweetness of friendship let there be laughter, and sharing of pleasures.

For in the dew of little things the heart finds its morning and is refreshed.

- K. Gilbran

canglong

08-22-2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by TEAZER
Anything related to the topic is evidence, so yes. It alone wouldn't be considered 'proof' by a long stretch, but it is certainly interesting. At least to me.
Yes, there is a difference between anything related to the topic is relavent and everything related to the topic having been found to be factual. Yes again, wc history is very interesting. Hendrik is always asking others for factual evidents so now that he is presenting his arguments and we see the theory the next logical step in the process is for him or others to provide the public some factually based corroborated evidence.

Originally posted by Reneritchie
Even though he gave up WCK for Buddhism
So the wing chun forum is just his way of scratching an itch or is there now a lot of wing chun discussion going on in his buddhist forum as well.

Phenix

08-22-2003, 09:43 AM

is there now a lot of wing chun discussion going on in his buddhist forum as well.---C

Sure,

Here is an example what is discuss in my buddhism forum.

He who love to fight is in Asura Realm.
Asura continously burns in the fire of fighting.
the Asura is thinking that by figthing one can release or cool of thier anger and attain satisfaction.
but what they don't know is they were trap and addicted by the temporary release but generate more figthing desire and get into deeper burning... never they will reach satisfaction and looping and trap. That is Samsara.

And, in the Wing Chun Kuen kuit (where ever it comes from, not important since it is a buddhist forum, and no wck historian there) , it said,

The nature of Crane is no fighting. thus it has the De (virture) of a Pheonix.

This means to learn WCK one has to transform to the nature of Crane -- No fighting.

This is because only no fighting can reverse the burning figthing desire and attain peace and has no win or lost and have a clear mind and the immoveable wisdom or the not abiding mind and and no illusive mind... Such as said in the prajna paramita heart sutra. " away from the upside down type of illusive mind attain Nirvana. The buddhas following the Prajna paramita..."

The process of the adaptation is similar to the Pheonix, it learn to not fight and keep learning and become better and better and finally detach from the bad old habits of fighting. everytime it burns it's old self clean with nothing left....and then raise from the ashes of purify ashes. again and again.

Thus, a buddhist can learn from a wing chun kuen kuit of no figthing and continous improve. thus not fall into the asura realm.

well, those are boring stuffs for you.
Just some example similar to those in bible school, everyone present thier opinion. nothing special.

Ok back to Ng Mui. so since Ng Mui is a crane master and a Buddhist sangha. My speculation is Ng Mui might agree with what the above. Well Ng Mui might or might not. Because Ng Mui is not me. and that is ok right?

yuanfen

08-22-2003, 10:08 AM

Hendrik is indeed amazing. On keeping cool and in patiently sharing and explaining his theses.... it's no contest.

His fujian-emei-wc-ng mui-connections involve painstaking and on this forum largely thankless work. Lots of details to be filled in for
it to be comprehensive but I for one am glad that he is working on it.

I have seen some of his research materials. He has a storehouse of things to chew on and analyze and think about.

Questioning his personal skills by someone using "sifu" in their signature emerges from a logic of desperation in any serious or sincere attempt at discussion in a forum.

Hendrik has considerable knowledge and skills in several arts
but he does not flaunt it in his postings. How do I know?
I have met him.

Some of his critics in attacking him as a person dont seem to understand how poorly it reflects on them.

joy

Chango

08-22-2003, 11:05 AM

Hello Joy,

Joy wrote: Questioning his personal skills by someone using "sifu" in their signature emerges from a logic of desperation in any serious or sincere attempt at discussion in a forum.

LOL! you missed my point. My question about his skill was one asking if this is the reason he feels that VTM owes him a debate or even thier attention. Joy I understand why you would feel this way about the question of physical skills. Sifu or not I have a write to ask someone about his/her skill level. espeacially some demanding a debate. If you read what I posted a little closer you would see that I'm questioning the fact that Hendrick seems to feel the need to put himself in the same group or class as the sucessors of Chi sim and Hung Fa Yi. So I'm just asking him about his technical skill. He is talking the talk but all I see is talk. It is a fair question!

Black and blue wrote:
This is like me posting a thread about Chango's teaching ability and then saying he's fat... something that has diddly squat to do with his skill. A good Sifu shouldn't be as fat as Chango. Now how stupid does that last sentence sound?

----you really should reread my post it's all about Hendrick demanding a debate from the VTM as if he is the named sucessor of a lineage. I have met two named sucessors both have demonstrated historical, and technical knowlege as well as physical skill. I just wondered if he had the same charecteristics. I had not heard good things about his skill. I just wanted to offer him a chance to defend. So as usual Rene has stepped up and defend Hendrick. So it is just more of the same.

BTW Fat no more! I have lost more then 30lbs and still loosing Atkins baby!!!! LOL!

BTW- Hendrick what did Sifu Chu have for lunch you seem extremely close ROFLOL!! Are you and Rene going to be fitted for shoulder pads. (inside joke Geezer that was for you!!)

Sifu Chango Noaks :D

reneritchie

08-22-2003, 11:12 AM

Canglong,

The vast majority of the raw material Hendrik posts is publically available to anyone willing to do the leg work (although you may at times need a working knowledge of Chinese, TCM, and related, or someone with such working knowledges). This post, for instance (regarding the San Dian Wu Meihua) is easily verified in published works on Fujian White Crane. Likewise, his previously shared historical material can be referenced in the listing provided in the published forms of the articles.

(Note, this is different that agreeing with the conclusions he reaches based on that material -- I didn't about SLT originating before the Red Junk period, though he's beginning to prove me wrong, the darn bastid...)

PaulH

08-22-2003, 11:26 AM

Just a question for the historians, to the people who are mostly interested in practical fighting, why should it be important that they know whether Ng Mui is lost or found? I read from Duncan Sifu's website this recent post and thought it is revelant enough to be posted here for your perusal.

Hello Master, I am sorry my poor English but there are some questions I have to clarify and I trust that you can help me. So, the questions are: 1 - Which is the genealogic tree of Duncan Leung Wing Chun?
I HAVE HEARD SEVERAL VARIATIONS OF THE FAMILY TREE AND DON'T KNOW WHICH IS TRUE. I AM SEVENTH GENERATION AND LEARNED FROM SIFU YIP MAN. WHAT I AM TEACHING IS NOT DUNCAN LEUNG WING CHUN. IT IS WHAT I WAS TAUGHT BY YIP MAN. SINCE I AM USING IT FOR SO MANY YEARS APPLYING THE PRINCIPLES I CALL IT APPLIED WING CHUN.
2 - Can you explain why Leung Yee Tai doesn't appears in some genealogic versions of systems linked with Yip Man? THIS IS ALL ORAL HISTORY WHICH LEADS TO DISCREPANCIES IN DETAILS, AS INDICATED ABOVE. THAT'S WHY I TEND TO AVOID THE SUBJECT. FOR THE ACTUAL TECHNIQUES AND HOW TO APPLY THEM, I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN WHAT I KNOW, BUT AS FOR THE GENEOLOGICAL HISTORY, SINCE THERE IS NO PROOF, IT DOES NOT INTEREST ME.
3 - Which was the relation between Leung Lan Kwai e Wong Wah Po? Were they master and student or just fellows in training? THIS MATTER IS DEBATED. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS FOR SURE.
4 - Master, your system is well know by your realistic and practical view of martial art. Does exist in you Wing Chun a real concern about the history and the culture of the stYle or these topics are considered just mythological stories without major matter in the fighting art? I HAVE MADE IT PLAIN THAT MY INTEREST IS IN THE PRACTICAL ART OF FIGHTING. OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT INTERESTS AND WOULD BE MORE ATTUNED TO THESE CONCERNS WHICH YOU RAISE.
5 -What was YIp Man thinking about the importance of Wing Chun history? TO BE HONEST, I DON'T THINK HE GAVE A ****. THAT'S THE YIP MAN I KNEW.

Regards,

Rolling_Hand

08-22-2003, 11:34 AM

<<Thanks for your great oppinion. Next time please comment more and please if possible also bring up into very specific details to prove my information is wrong. Thanks in advance.>>HS

--Hendrik, I don't see a rabbit or anything under your hat-"to prove". Ok, try this -"We must open the doors of oppertunity. But we must also do our SOT FAAT to walk through those doors"....Hum, The Dhammapada is probably the best known of all portions of Buddhist scripture. In Buddhist teaching: If a man speaks many holy words but he speaks and does not act on them, this thoughtless man cannot enjoy the life of holineness;he is like a cowherd who counts the cows of his master.--RH

<<As I have said in the past Hendrick's theories and Ideas are his own and I take no issue with him. But these are his words so at this point if felt the need to respond.>>Chango

--Whenever Hendrik talks about things, there is nothing new under the sun, just blab...not the sound of Ch'an, Ch'an saw the primary purpose of spriritual practice as seeing into one's own true nature. Chango sifu, it's good to see you around. I'd like to say thanks to the VTM and you guys are doing a good job to serve our WCK community.--RH

reneritchie

08-22-2003, 11:36 AM

Duncan Leung is correct.

History is just easy to chat about online because you can't punch people over a network (yet).

Chango

08-22-2003, 11:41 AM

Rollinghand,
I'm more the impressed with you knowlege of Ch'an. It brings a real voice of reason to this forum at times when things get crazy around here. Thanks for the kind words.

Sifu Chango Noaks

Chango

08-22-2003, 11:53 AM

Rene wrote:History is just easy to chat about online because you can't punch people over a network (yet).

I have to say that if there was a danger of punching the traffic woudl be alot less by some. I guess I'm old school when I say "don't say anything on the web that you don't have the guts to say face to face." I firmly believe in "walking the walk". I believe a man that does battle and looses has far more honor then a man that runs his mouth and never backs up his words. Ok it won't make the halmark card section but it works for me on many levels.

See you later mate! you see Rene I have no business saying this LOL! A guy from the hood in the US has no business saying "mate." that's how your 80's rap lingo looks from here ROFLOL!
Remember this is all in good fun! even you should get a laugh at that!!!

Sifu Chango Noaks

In memory of post made by the one called "Geezer" a single AK siloute!
:cool:

canglong

08-22-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
His fujian-emei-wc-ng mui-connections involve painstaking and on this forum largely thankless work. Lots of details to be filled in for it to be comprehensive...
Originally posted by Rene Ritchie
The vast majority of the raw material Hendrik posts is publically available to anyone willing to do the leg work

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
--Whenever Hendrik talks about things, there is nothing new under the sun, just blab...
Certainly nothing new about a white crane person with a white crane spin.

reneritchie

08-22-2003, 12:43 PM

Chango,

I'm glad we can agree on something, and I admire your passion if not always its direction.

I grew up on rap, back in the day of Curtis Blow (is he still lost in the jungle?), and the true one and only GM--Flash, and can still drop the hard rhymes when needed, but then I was never one to constrain myself by artificial cultural boundaries. I'll even drive a German and Italian car if I *have* to, or use words like 'Sifu'. ;)

So everything's apps. Easy now star. Cheers. 5000. Whatever.

Canglong,

I thought I smelled cabbage! (hee hee)

bglenn

08-22-2003, 01:27 PM

the quality of ones kung fu system does not come from a B.S. storyfrom the past.NOBODY GIVES A D@MN!!!!

planetwc

08-22-2003, 02:54 PM

By the way,

Someone forgot to inform 50 Cent that the term Homies is no longer used.

He only says it in his current album (on more than one song) and given he is the hottest Rap act on the planet, I guess that means Rene is au current in his use of the term.

For instance

http://lyrics.astraweb.com:2000/t5d.cgi?50_cent..in_da_club_12..in_da_club

PaulH

08-22-2003, 03:07 PM

Here is one of the reasons I'm interested in the Ng Mui story:

I want to understand more of the purpose of the SLT. Is it combat-oriented (my current view) or chan/philosophical/buddhist designed in origin?

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought. —Basho

Regards,

planetwc

08-22-2003, 03:16 PM

On one hand the VTM or at least it's adherents wish it to be viewed as engaged in unbiased *research*, presented in a rigorous and scientific manner.

If someone disagrees with that research, why is it necessary to resort to personal attacks on that person?

It is Benny Meng and Richard Lowenhagen via their article in Kung Fu Magazine and articles on the VTM website which started the whole discussion in the first place. Those articles used the words "TRUE" history and eliminating "MYTH" and pro-offered HFY as the oldest Wing Chun system etc.

Others disagree with the premises in their article and can present their opinions just as much as the Benny and his students of the VTM can.

As part of that disagreement it is not necessary to ask what skill level Benny Meng has or if he can fight in terms of presenting HIS theories on the origins of Wing Chun.

Somehow disagreeing with the VTM is an ATTACK on the students who compose it's staff. It was the VTM staff by their own literal words which informed all the other Wing Chun families and lineages, that HFY was the one true source of Wing Chun Kuen and that other lineages origin histories were just myth.

How does attacking Hendrik Santo and asking him disparaging questions about his personal combat skills and lineage counter his theories?

If Hendrik were physically disabled in some fashion would that therefore mean that his IDEAS somehow held less value?

If the goal of the VTM is research based on academic displine and scientific rigor, then the notions of peer review and debate should not be alien concepts.

Phenix

08-22-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Here is my reason of my interest of the Ng Mui story:

I want to know more of the purpose of the SLT.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought. —Basho

Regards,

Paul,

The next art I want to learn is,
to learn how to sing.

and I dream to get a great singing skill to be able to sing in the Fine Jade association for the ancestors in their yearly celebration.

I have also choose a song to sing. I might get rene's brother leonard richi to teach me to sing? :D

Here is the song I like to sing to Ng Mui, Miu Shun..... Wong wah boh.....

This is the song I like to sing certainly very different to those cantonese opera. :D

Starry, starry night
Flaming flowers that brightly blaze
Swirling clouds and violet haze
Reflect in Vincent's eyes of CHINA BLUE
Colours changing hue
Morning fields of amber grain
Weathered faces lined in pain
Are soothed beneath the artists' loving hand

Like the strangers that you've met
The ragged men in ragged clothes
The silver thorn of bloody rose
Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow

Now I think I know
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen
They're not listening still
Perhaps they never will...

PaulH

08-22-2003, 03:46 PM

Hendrik,

Do you know this song?

Twinkle, twinkle, siu nim tau,
How I wonder what you are.
Up above the world so high,
Like a diamond in the sky.
Twinkle, twinkle, siu nim tau,
How I wonder what you are!

When the blazing sun is gone,
When he nothing shines upon,
Then you show your little light,
Twinkle, twinkle, all the night.
Twinkle, twinkle, siu nim tau,
How I wonder what you are!

Then the traveler in the dark
Thanks you for your tiny spark;
He could not see which way to go,
If you did not twinkle so.
Twinkle, twinkle, siu nim tau,
How I wonder what you are!

It would help if genius like Van Gogh would descend down more to earth. Ha! Ha! For a starter, what are 3 points and 5 points of the plum flower? Clueless in LA.

Regards,

Savi

08-22-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by planetwc
If someone disagrees with that research, why is it necessary to resort to personal attacks on that person? It isn't necessary at all, and the VTM has never in all its history ever done anything akin to such. I for one do not partake in attacking anybody, but only challenge their comments. If other people take it as an attack against themself as a person, that's not my problem. Your statement above seems like an attempt to encompass everyone of my family in the VTM and HFY. Although this might not be your intent, it's statements like the one above that leave yourself open to many rebuttles from many people. Let's be clear about who you are addressing to avoid past patterns.

Originally posted by planetwc
It is Benny Meng and Richard Lowenhagen via their article in Kung Fu Magazine and articles on the VTM website which started the whole discussion in the first place. Those articles used the words "TRUE" history and eliminating "MYTH" and pro-offered HFY as the oldest Wing Chun system etc. So what is your point? Is that offensive to you? Hmmm, what is that you said in my other thread about defensive personalities? I wonder...

Originally posted by planetwc
Others disagree with the premises in their article and can present their opinions just as much as the Benny and his students of the VTM can. What's your point here? That we all have free will? Or that you think the HFY family members who interact here don't know what free will is? Just a question.

Originally posted by planetwc
As part of that disagreement it is not necessary to ask what skill level Benny Meng has or if he can fight in terms of presenting HIS theories on the origins of Wing Chun. OK... and?

Originally posted by planetwc
Somehow disagreeing with the VTM is an ATTACK on the students who compose it's staff. It was the VTM staff by their own literal words which informed all the other Wing Chun families and lineages, that HFY was the one true source of Wing Chun Kuen and that other lineages origin histories were just myth. 1. Your mixing up your apples with your oranges. Disagreeing with the VTM is not viewed as an ATTACK (like the caps?) on the students who compose its staff. Disagreeing with anybody using childish and offensive language would be insulting to anybody - which could very much be considered an attack. That is the difference.

2. Other lineages still maintain that their origins are still oral myths and legends. And to be clear, it is the Southern Shaolin Temple that is the origin of HFYWCK according to their documentation and research. Does that necessitate getting bent out of shape? If I say I have a gun, does that mean you don't? No.

Originally posted by planetwc
How does attacking Hendrik Santo and asking him disparaging questions about his personal combat skills and lineage counter his theories? It doesn't. Those questions have nothing to do about his theories. They are off topic questions regarding comments Hendrik provided to Chango. Apples and oranges again.

Originally posted by planetwc
If Hendrik were physically disabled in some fashion would that therefore mean that his IDEAS somehow held less value? What's the meaning of life? What does this have to do with the price of grass in the South Pole? The answer is N-O (as in NO).

Originally posted by planetwc
If the goal of the VTM is research based on academic displine and scientific rigor, then the notions of peer review and debate should not be alien concepts. They aren't alien concepts, but keep in mind that the Wing Chun Forum does not serve as the VTM's source of peer review and debate. This forum is a you to me/them to us discussion board. The VTM is not involved in the use of this particular forum, other that personal use by some of its members.

saifa5k

08-22-2003, 08:21 PM

An early "portrait" of Ng Mui....We have to consider the fact that Wing Chun was created a lot earlier in times than it was actually believed!

I think this is probably true. FWIW while looking through a book on Baugua (sp) the other day noticed they had the same "goat pinning stance" as in wing chun. Obviously goju's sanchin stance that admittedly derived from White Crane is also almost identical to the KYM stance of wing chun. Point being is that wing chun did not exist in a vacuum but was most likely connected to many other forms of kung fu.
Dave c

Phenix

08-22-2003, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

It would help if genius like Van Gogh would descend down more to earth. Ha! Ha! For a starter, what are 3 points and 5 points of the plum flower? Clueless in LA.

Regards,

HI Paul,

You watch Grouchng Tiger and Hidden Dragon?

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountains disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes.
The world I know fades away
But you stay.

As the earth reclaims its due,
And the cycle starts anew,
We'll stay, always ....

If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side.
The North star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes
Will burn there always ...

When the forest turns to jade
And the stories that we've made.
Dissolve away
One shining light will still remain.

You don't need Genius, one only needs to know Chinese, read lots of books, make friends with lots of senior martial artists, and look into details.... everything is there.,,,,

22th Years of Kang Xi emperor, 1683, the 6th month, Kang Xi order Fujian's Navy general Sze Lang to attack Taiwan. the 8th month Sze Lang and Cheng Ke-Suang of Taiwan make peace (Cheng Surrender). Qing conquer , Taiwan joining back Main Land China, belong to a part of Fujian. Then the people of both side commuting back and forth freely. At that time,
Sze Lang brought a master name Bai Chieh back to fujian from Taiwan. Bai Go to Wing Chun (evelasting spring) teaching---
CHUN JING CHIE LIK (madarin)....

If you read chinese, evident is here too.
http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/

So what it this CHUN JING CHIE LIK ?
in English it is INCH POWER(JING) JOIN POWER (LIK)

Where is the Sun Punch inch power or inch punch from Guess!

later, Some one sees there are ways to improve the Jing.....still a little Kang or hard at that time, IMHO.

So, the evolution continous.....
Next, the SLT ........

When, where ,who, how, what......
If we know the history, we know the JIng evolution, we know the details......, thus we can reproduce and continous the evolution.......
Fighting is All about generating power right? TNT atomic......

So, Let's start to interpolate. NG Mui, Inch power, more to come.......

If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes.
The world I know fades away
But you stay.

Well, you don't need Van to continous.... look into his China Blue eyes...... you see Miss Yim there?

Train

08-22-2003, 11:33 PM

Planetwc,

Coming from reader's point of veiw, I think Hendrik words things inoppropriatly(sarcastic even). Sometimes i'm not sure what's Hendrik's intentions are. And, what's wrong with somebody defending their lineage and sifu? Do you agree? of coarse not, it seems like you already made up your mind on HFY and the VTM. :) ohhh wells

Savi,

Well said!!

reneritchie

08-23-2003, 05:33 AM

I want to understand more of the purpose of the SLT.

Some might say it is an embodiment of Buddhism. Some might say its a derivitive of Emei Buddhist/Taoist fusion.

I tend to think that while such aspects are intrinsically part of Chinese culture along with Confucious and other aspects, seeing as the embodiment of Buddism is choice some make and then mould the art (drawing on the artifacts within it) to fit those beliefs, or as Emei alchemy similarly try to go back and re-engineer some partial aspect or facet that has since evolved otherwise.

So, while people will make of it what they will, SLT cannot be found in Shaolin, and it cannot be found in Emei. It is unique, as a child is from its parents -- of them but not them. And in the uniqueness of SLT are the needs of its own time and place, which while they may nuture Nei Gong, they provice fighting skills first and foremost, so that their developers would not die before they could complete their nurturing.

reneritchie

08-23-2003, 05:37 AM

David,

Homies is still current. Haven't heard 'hops' since Ice-T's O.G., so maybe I should try to bring that back? Fashizy is pretty new, though its recent hollywood presence means its time should be done.

My use of homies was a tip of the hat to Ralphy May, who was tippin his cap to Chris Rock. All his peeps should be down wit dat, you know, keepin it real, aiight?

yuanfen

08-23-2003, 07:46 AM

Rollinghand,
I'm more the impressed with you knowlege of Ch'an. It brings a real voice of reason to this forum at times when things get crazy around here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Laughter is healthy. ROFL)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes i'm not sure what's Hendrik's intentions are.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Intentions? Why not discuss/debate his theses- if interested in the topic. If not- let it pass. Simple!))
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At that time,
Sze Lang brought a master name Bai Chieh back to fujian from Taiwan. Bai Go to Wing Chun (evelasting spring) teaching---
CHUN JING CHIE LIK (madarin)....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Hendrik- are there more details on Bai Chieh? Are you thinking of southern short hand- which is there in southern mantis families as well as wing chun or specifically wing chun inch power?))

ZIM

08-23-2003, 08:14 AM

saifa5k wrote:
FWIW while looking through a book on Baugua (sp) the other day noticed they had the same "goat pinning stance" as in wing chun. Ba Gua [spelling help]:) . And, no, they don't have it really. Don't let stray photos of split-second moves fool you- what you saw was a 'kwa' step [not a stance] used to transition from one direction to the other, typically speaking. They never 'settle' in it.

Phenix

08-23-2003, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen

At that time,
Sze Lang brought a master name Bai Chieh back to fujian from Taiwan. Bai Go to Wing Chun (evelasting spring) teaching---
CHUN JING CHIE LIK (madarin)....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Hendrik- are there more details on Bai Chieh? Are you thinking of southern short hand- which is there in southern mantis families as well as wing chun or specifically wing chun inch power?))

Joy,

Not the southern mantis type.

the inch or join power is the Trade Mark of White Crane since late 1600s.

On top of the inch join snap power.
there are different type of wholesome body jing.

the join snap jing can be used individually or on top of wholesome body jing.

The different wholesome body jing become a general way of characterize which branch of present day white crane...

So, say, the rushout crane lineage of white crane or Chong Her line has the Chong Jing a type of full body vibrating/propel Jing.....as a wholesome body jing. (and the snap can be used on top of the vibrating.)
and the Karate sanchin has the tense up the whole body hard Jing.... ect.

IMHO, think about the Inch power as a type of drill bit. so the develop of the drill bit has to consistance to the holder of the drill bit and the motor.

and each brand has different drill bit holder , gear box, and motor.

and ofcause the motor, gear box, and drill bit keep evol to be more efficient and ease of use.......

IMHO, the mantis has thier drill bit , gear box, motor.
the body of the mantis, with the head pop out .

and, since the time of creation the body of white crane has to be proper or Zheng ... and center..... as it said sanchin is san zheng or three proper, no head pop out.

saifa5k

08-23-2003, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by ZIM
Ba Gua [spelling help]:) . And, no, they don't have it really. Don't let stray photos of split-second moves fool you- what you saw was a 'kwa' step [not a stance] used to transition from one direction to the other, typically speaking. They never 'settle' in it.

Thanks for the speeeling help ;). But think about it.......isnt the KYM also a very transitional stance too in application? I know I wouldnt fight in it but would instead move in, out, and through it.

Dave C

Phenix

08-23-2003, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen

Sometimes i'm not sure what's Hendrik's intentions are.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Intentions? Why not discuss/debate his theses- if interested in the topic. If not- let it pass. Simple!))

Joy,

I agree. focus on the thesis. That simple.

Otherwise, it just reflex out one's mind state. It is similar to if one has fear of snake, by seeing rope in a distance will get paranoid and over react ... and then blame, put down on others about the robe. all these are understandable and no blame. that is a part of study chan. first learn not to taking what ever though raise in one's mind as reality and second learn to see things as it is. In chan one cannot lie, because the buddha natura always honest. So, the level of attainment shows automatically.

Back to the thesis, IMHO
as the analogy of drill bit, bit holder, gear box, motor, and applications.....

IMHO, all has to line up. and then the history also has to line up.
Thus, we have two parallel path of checking.

Thus, IMHO, history serves as a parallel check tools with the real intent is the drill bit, bit holder, gear box, motor... so one knows how to repair them and evol them and make them more efficient and user friendly......

Now, certainly people who tries to force this drill bit to that bit holder lacking of thinking about motor structure. and then while in history check cannot converge into the time line of evolution.... that got a big problem. I see it as in engineering.. I might be wrong. But, in engineering, it is similar to a pirate tools, always missing something somewhere and violating patent all over the place. So, history is also similar to patent check. learn who create it how it works and properly credit the inventor. that simple. stick to the thesis.

a side topic, I was laterly interested in fountain pen and watches. say conklin and omas.. they have thier piston type they nips..
say the vachelon constantine and its time regulator type of watch and the jumping hour and the digital....swatch... lots can be learn by searching what happen in the evolution of fountain pen and watches.. history, method, philosophy...artists.

For someone like me who has no Idea what is an conklin or Vachelon Constantine will certainly speak outloud in the fine watch/ pen store/exhibition in New york. comparing the hero pen and garuda watch and makes bunch of critics on how no skill is Vachelon Constantine and Conklin was bankcrupt and nothing. Well, those fine pen and watch makers never ague with me. until I later learn... well learning process.

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Chateau/8616/watch/vcprimer.html

Quiz #1 is vachelon constantine has older history then WCK?
Quiz #2 1800 is it that far a way?

ZIM

08-23-2003, 11:37 AM

I don't want to sidetrack this thread, so I'll reply via PM. Rene may be able to enlighten you further on differences and similarities of the two. :)

yuanfen

08-23-2003, 01:43 PM

Hendrik sez:
IMHO, think about the Inch power as a type of drill bit. so the develop of the drill bit has to consistance to the holder of the drill bit and the motor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of Course-Absolutely.

Joy

reneritchie

08-23-2003, 01:52 PM

My branch of WCK has some surprising similarities to some schools of Bagua in that we focus on sprial turning power in *all* our movements.

ZIM is correct in that while the shape of the Ba Zi Bu (/ \ Shape Horse) is similar to WCK's Er Zi Qian Yang Ma (= Shape Clamping Yang Horse) usually the methodology of the footwork is different (though we have toe-in and toe-out, we don't tend to use the similar movements in the same way -- we have our own way of moving).

There's a theory that like intentioned things developed by like bodied/minded people will tend towards similarity (see the Lotus vs. Excell lawsuit), and this is the case in many application oriented, Neigung focused MA. Similar but different, different but similar. Look for like and you'll find it, look for other and you'll find that too.

(BTW- Nice to 'see' you again DC!)

reneritchie

08-23-2003, 02:04 PM

Hendrik,

M'hai Cheun Ging, Hai *Duen* Ging. Why be greedy and take a whole inch?? :)

canglong

08-23-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Savi
Although this might not be your intent, it's statements like the one above that leave yourself open to many rebuttles from many people. Let's be clear about who you are addressing to avoid past patterns. Excellent advice for us all Savi, well said.

yuanfen sez
((Intentions? Why not discuss/debate his theses- if interested in the topic. If not- let it pass. Simple!))
yuanfen, I notice you are not too fond of following you own advice.
Originally posted by ReneRitchie
So, while people will make of it what they will, SLT cannot be found in Shaolin, and it cannot be found in Emei. It is unique, as a child is from its parents -- of them but not them. And in the uniqueness of SLT are the needs of its own time and place, which while they may nuture Nei Gong, they provice fighting skills first and foremost, so that their developers would not die before they could complete their nurturing.
Rene, maybe you need to go brush your teeth.(hee hee)

Train

08-23-2003, 07:53 PM

Tony,

You betta watch out for Renizzle!! He's gangsta rememba!!! :)

Peace out Dawg hehehe

saifa5k

08-23-2003, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
[There's a theory that like intentioned things developed by like bodied/minded people will tend towards similarity (see the Lotus vs. Excell lawsuit), and this is the case in many application oriented, Neigung focused MA. Similar but different, different but similar. Look for like and you'll find it, look for other and you'll find that too.

True, kinda like a form follows function thing.

(BTW- Nice to 'see' you again DC!) [/B]

And its good seeing you and several others that I havent seen in a long time. In my last semester of grad school, doing my internship so finally have a little more time to play ;).

Dave c

planetwc

08-23-2003, 11:35 PM

1. I thought the VTM was independent of lineage?
a. Where was the attack by Hendrik to a Sifu in his post?
b. Where was the attack by Hendrik to a lineage in his post?

2. There is nothing wrong with defending one's lineage or Sifu, it is more about the manner in which it is done, and more to the point there were no lineage references.

As to the comments regarding the VTM, the VTM had pro-offered itself as an independent body based on preservation of all lineages and research independent of lineage.

Since the merger with HFY, I gather then, it is no longer lineage neutral, instead it seeks to present information which puts HFY as the center of the Wing Chun "universe", such as it is.

That is certainly the choice of VTM to go in that direction. Perhaps the next phase of evolution will be to change the name to the Hung Fa Yee Wing Chun Museum i.e. HFYWCM (instead of VTM)as "Ving Tsun" does not seem to be the way Hung Fa Yi refers to Wing Chun.

My mind is pretty open regarding the origins of Wing Chun Kuen. The HFY-VTM seems to have made it's collective mind up that HFY is the source.

What do you think Train? :P

Oh well indeed!

Originally posted by Train
Planetwc,

Coming from reader's point of veiw, I think Hendrik words things inoppropriatly(sarcastic even). Sometimes i'm not sure what's Hendrik's intentions are. And, what's wrong with somebody defending their lineage and sifu? Do you agree? of coarse not, it seems like you already made up your mind on HFY and the VTM. :) ohhh wells

Savi,

Well said!!

Savi

08-24-2003, 12:45 AM

To answer the subject line: I'd say that the VTM is an organization, which is led by a person from a lineage.

Originally posted by planetwc
As to the comments regarding the VTM, the VTM had pro-offered itself as an independent body based on preservation of all lineages and research independent of lineage. Although I never read where they 'offered' themselves as an independant body.... the rest of your statement is pretty much stated in their mission statement. This does not, however, restrict Master Meng's kung fu family from having their own kung fu identity.

Originally posted by planetwc
Since the merger with HFY, I gather then, it is no longer lineage neutral, instead it seeks to present information which puts HFY as the center of the Wing Chun "universe", such as it is. Don't know how you came to the conclusion that is the center of the "Wing Chun universe", but to help with your perspective, it was GM Ip Man's dream to have a place in the world where all families of WC could come together. Two generations later it so happened that Master Benny Meng was given the task to make that dream realized. To counter your statement, ask yourself if the VTM was ever "neutral" (with respect to originating from a lineage) in the first place - being that its roots began in the Ip Man Ving Tsun Family. Perhaps you should read up on the history of the birth of the Ving Tsun Museum.

Originally posted by planetwc
That is certainly the choice of VTM to go in that direction. Perhaps the next phase of evolution will be to change the name to the Hung Fa Yee Wing Chun Museum i.e. HFYWCM (instead of VTM)as "Ving Tsun" does not seem to be the way Hung Fa Yi refers to Wing Chun. This I do not think is in the future of the VTM, or is even considered an option. I think this would also contradict the neutrality of the VTM.

Originally posted by planetwc
My mind is pretty open regarding the origins of Wing Chun Kuen. The HFY-VTM seems to have made it's collective mind up that HFY is the source. Keep in mind the VTM is still conducting research, and I don't think they plan to stop.

Just my two cents to your post. I didn't address everything in your post, maybe later.

Rolling_Hand

08-24-2003, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Train

Coming from reader's point of veiw, I think Hendrik words things inoppropriatly(sarcastic even). Sometimes i'm not sure what's Hendrik's intentions are.

-----------------------------------------

Hi Train,

Well said, you connect with the world through your eyes. The Buddhist idea of kamma may be expressed as 'actions have consequences'. I think Hendrik has a chance to have his cake and eat it too.

Things do change. The only question is that since things are deteriorating so quickly, will society and man's habits change quickly enough?--RH

Originally posted by Hendrik

It is similar to if one has fear of snake, by seeing rope in a distance will get paranoid and over react ... and then blame, put down on others about the robe. all these are understandable and no blame. that is a part of study chan.
------------------------------------------

Hi Hendrik,

Anyone can tell story. Few can tell it like it is. Buddhism aims to overcome suffering and offers a way both of looking at life (wisdom) and behaving (ethics) that are intened to overcome unskilful ways of thinking and behaving.--RH

yuanfen

08-24-2003, 08:34 AM

To answer the subject line: I'd say that the VTM is an organization, which is led by a person from a lineage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

((No problem whatosever with that identification. The Museum label and doing research are subjective and seemingly marketing labels. Many orgs. engage in marketing and I have no problem with that. As has been said many times however that when claims of
the currently favored style being the origin of wing chun and that it is more scientific and that it is linked with Chan- that others legitimately regard it as nonsense))

------------------------------------------------------

Don't know how you came to the conclusion that is the center of the "Wing Chun universe", but to help with your perspective, it was GM Ip Man's dream to have a place in the world where all families of WC could come together. Two generations later it so happened that Master Benny Meng was given the task to make that dream realized.

((Slippery slope nonsense in attempting to link things that have no reliable links. Ip man made many statements of many kinds.
Moy Yat advocated a museum. Does not follow that he was given an exclusive mantle. It was a nice idea that has gone awry towards the end of Moy yat's life and certainly since Moy Yat's death. The estrangement with the Moy yat family is fairly obvious. And most well established Ip man lines have not given the museum the kind of endorsement needed for it to be anywhere near Moy Yat's idea. .
PlanetWc and Rene apparently in good faith have expressed a hope in their posts that the Museum could have beena vehicle for crossfamily communications. I gave up those illusions quite early.

The personal and adversarial posts on this forum from people associated with the museums current catechism are very much at variance with the claims of working for unity and objective research. Marketing mythmaking is an entirely different matter.))

canglong

08-24-2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
The personal and adversarial posts on this forum from people associated with the museums current catechism are very much at variance with the claims of working for unity and objective research. Marketing mythmaking is an entirely different matter.)) Though the truth may sound adversarial to some that is not the case for all. Do you run all your post by your Sifu before clicking the submit button, for the record when I read your silly post about marketing I don't think any less of your sifu.
Originally posted by planetwc
2. There is nothing wrong with defending one's lineage or Sifu, it is more about the manner in which it is done, and more to the point there were no lineage references. Obviously this is a case of do as I say and not do as I do.

canglong

08-24-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by train
You betta watch out for Renizzle!! He's gangsta rememba!!!
hahahaha you just made me laugh train a canadian gangsta hahahahahaha that is an oxymoron or should we remove the oxy:D

saifa5k

08-24-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by canglong

hahahaha you just made me laugh train a canadian gangsta hahahahahaha that is an oxymoron or should we remove the oxy:D

Gee, and you guys wonder why a lot of folks dont take you seriously.

yuanfen

08-24-2003, 11:14 AM

Going back to the ng mui issue which was the start of the thread
( and ignoring the familar personal posts or hijacking):

Hendrik brings up some intriguing points on Ng Mui, fujian crane and emei. His work is far from finished.He has already pointed to historical connections to the slt, inch power/kuen development and ygkym. He has the specific quotes on the inch punch from Fujian- the pictures of the emei postures. This also includes the implication that distinctive wing chun predates the red boats and that it didnt begin as a shaolin temple art directly.
Rene- as I think you know- this does not surprise me. The development of an operating (non computer) logical language and grammar takes a long time- and the red boat era is too recent for the red boat origin thesis to be imperative.
And- everyone claims Shaolin - which is nice nostalgia-but not very informative. Shaolin soccer?

It would seem to me that if anyone is seriously into or claim to be into "research"(I am not suggesting that most wc folks are or should be)- on the origins of wing chun, that they would provide evidence to contradict, support or modify Hendrik's theses.

And anyone only interested in learning only the physical dynamics
of wing chun imo can reasonably ignore the "historical" discussions. No problem.

As far as I know. anyone can read the forum material though direct forum posting involves very simple registration. And- Hendrik is easy to reach directly and there is nothing anonymous about his identity. Museums and foundations should fund Hendrik's research-he has the great combination of language skills, knowledge of chinese literature and details of history, analytical background and practising martial background to do further research.

yuanfen

08-24-2003, 11:16 AM

Going back to the ng mui issue which was the start of the thread
( and ignoring the familar personal posts):

Hendrik brings up some intriguing points on Ng Mui, fujian crane and emei. His work is far from finished.He has already pointed to historical connections to the slt, inch power/kuen development and ygkym. He has the specific quotes on the inch punch from Fujian- the pictures of the emei postures. This also includes the implication that distinctive wing chun predates the red boats and that it didnt begin as a shaolin temple art directly.
Rene- as I think you know- this does not surprise me. The development of an operating (non computer) logical language and grammar takes a long time- and the red boat era is too recent for the red boat origin thesis to be imperative.
And- everyone claims Shaolin - which is nice nostalgia-but not very informative. Shaolin soccer?

It would seem to me that if anyone is seriously into or claim to be into "research"(I am not suggesting that most wc folks are or should be)- on the origins of wing chun, that they would provide evidence to contradict, support or modify Hendrik's theses.

And anyone only interested in learning only the physical dynamics
of wing chun imo can reasonably ignore the "historical" discussions. No problem.

As far as I know. anyone can read the forum material though direct forum posting involves very simple registration. And- Hendrik is easy to reach directly and there is nothing anonymous about his identity. Museums and foundations should fund Hendrik's research-he has the great combination of language skills, knowledge of chinese literature and details of history, analytical background and practising martial background to do further research.

Rolling_Hand

08-24-2003, 11:20 AM

<<Gee, and you guys wonder why a lot of folks dont take you seriously.>>Dave C

Who are you guys?
Grendel? John weiland? Dave C? PlantWC?
Aren't you all belong to the same group?

Rolling_Hand

08-24-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Yuanfen

Hendrik brings up some intriguing points on Ng Mui, fujian crane and emei. His work is far from finished.He has already pointed to historical connections to the slt, inch power/kuen development and ygkym. He has the specific quotes on the inch punch from Fujian- the pictures of the emei postures. This also includes the implication that distinctive wing chun predates the red boats and that it didnt begin as a shaolin temple art directly.

---------------------------------------------

We are confronted by a condition, someone misleads people with just quote stuff from books to be sarcastic. Most men, when they think they are thinking, are merely rearranging their prejudices. Do you realize if it weren't for Wong Wah Bo we'd be doing white crane's water palm instead of WCK's Tan Sau? I would like to suggest fresh practice our Tan Sau and better understand what is and is not WCK.--RH

TjD

08-24-2003, 01:29 PM

i don't understand the point in connecting SLT to taoism or buddhism. while i am very uninformed in respect to taoism, i would like to say i have a fairly decent idea of what buddhism is about.

why should standing in SLT doing motions highly related to fighting be connected to buddhism, what does one gain? if you want buddhism, sit in the lotus position and watch the breath.

buddhism is wonderful in the fact that you can always be practicing, due to mindfulness (along with the rest of the noble eightfold path). We can be mindful in SLT and watch the breath, but is this different than being mindful in chum kiu and watching the breath? what about in biu jee, or the mook jong form, or the pole, or the knives?

is this different than being mindful while walking down the street? while taking a ****? while posting on an internet forum?

with all those same things, we can also put forth right concentration, right effort, etc etc. why does one specifically need a linking?

when one is a buddhist, everything they do centers around their practice. much like when one has studied wing chun for many years, most movements they do center around wing chun. when i go downhill skiing, play a sport or anything else i analyze it in terms of body structure and relaxation, just as i analyze wing chun. the same as how at every moment i try to be mindful, put forth right effort, etc.

connecting SLT to buddhism might be helpful for a buddhist, or connecting it to taoism might be helpful for a taoist, but isn't it just a matter of perspective?

personally, i try not to worry about these things as in the end they're just another distraction from mindfulness and concentration, and from personal experience following that noble eightfold path is a much nicer way of life than the alternative.

Rolling_Hand

08-24-2003, 02:36 PM

quote:Originally posted by planetwc

2. There is nothing wrong with defending one's lineage or Sifu, it is more about the manner in which it is done, and more to the point there were no lineage references.

--Obviously this is a case of do as I say and not do as I do.--Tony

-------------------------------------------

Hi Tony,

You got a good point here. When one lives his life in accordance with basic goodness, then one develops natural elegance. In spirit, that reminds me of the following profound thought:

Learning consists in adding to one's stock day by day;
The practice of Tao consists in 'subtracting day by day,
Subtracting and yet again subtracting
Till one has reach inactivity.
But by this very inactivity.
Everything can be activated.
Those who of old won the adherence of all who live under heaven
All did so by not interfering.
Had they interfered,
They would never have won this adherence.--Lao Tzu

Originally posted by TjD

why connect SLT to taoism or buddhism?

i don't understand the point in connecting SLT to taoism or buddhism. while i am very uninformed in respect to taoism, i would like to say i have a fairly decent idea of what buddhism is about

----------------------------------------

Hi TjD,

There are multiple dimensions in Chinese wisdom and a wealth of practices and rituals for improving every aspect of the human condition. Taoist wisdom offers some penetrating insights into the way of cosmos. It explains everything within the world as a duality of oppsites, like Yin and Yang, like Tan Sau and Lop Sau in WCK. Buddhist philosophy is completely spiritual and its teachings refer to this cycle of birth, death, and rebirth as the karmic cycle of life and give it the name samsara. Their practices are aimed at attaining liberation from samsara. It's like Chi Sau in WCK, in a way, we learn how to be alive in combat. In other words, Taoism, Buddhism and WCK, these three things interconnect.--RH

yuanfen

08-24-2003, 05:19 PM

TJD- Hendrik has been trying to connect things historcially-hence the comments on the Buddhist connection. There are actually several different theses on the historical- red boat, pre redboat.
shaolin, chan, fujian-emei ...

Yes and one can walk mindfully to begin a dharma journey. But one can do wing chun mindfully too.

Of course one does not need to understand the historical or logical connections to learn and use wing chun for fighting purposes.

Interest in wing chun's roots in no way needs to exclude the martial aspects.

But there can be multiple levels pf interest in approaching a subject.

One can use Galilean physics without delving into Aristotelian
and Thomistic contradictions of the new physics- but understanding the intellectal context where the new physics was born can be interesting to some without having to be a Catholic or a non Catholic.

To folks just interested in the motions of wing chun much of forum talk can be irrelevant. Oh well.
Cheers anyway.

canglong

08-24-2003, 05:29 PM

Gee, and you guys wonder why a lot of folks dont take you seriously. saifa5k, believe me when I say no one is wondering about you and your 7 post.

canglong

08-24-2003, 05:59 PM

why connect SLT to taoism or buddhism?

In other words, Taoism, Buddhism and WCK, these three things interconnect.--RH TjD,To completely understand something is to completely understand something, you can settle for less but then you would be responsible for your own limitations.

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Most men, when they think they are thinking, are merely rearranging their prejudices. Very timely words indeed.

TjD

08-24-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
To folks just interested in the motions of wing chun much of forum talk can be irrelevant. Oh well.
Cheers anyway.

while i agree, it seems that most people who try to connect SLT to a higher power (taoism, buddhism, what have you) seem to think that somehow this will give them the super-secret key to wing chun, etc etc etc; or that SLT or wing chun is somehow lacking without it.

this i disagree.

while concentration, effort and paying attention are requisites to a good SLT, they're also requisites towards doing most everything in life well. i don't think anything else really needs to be brought into the equation unless you're already seeking some higher truth.

saifa5k

08-24-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by canglong
saifa5k, believe me when I say no one is wondering about you and your 7 post.

Hi Tony,
Thanks for making my point.
Dave C

John Weiland

08-24-2003, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by TjD
i don't understand the point in connecting SLT to taoism or buddhism. while i am very uninformed in respect to taoism, i would like to say i have a fairly decent idea of what buddhism is about.

Hi Travis,

I don't see the connection either except that a modern day Buddhist monk, Hendrik uses Buddhist resources to illuminate the history and development of Wing Chun and establish critical time frames and historical developments if you read his posts. While being highly informative, he has apparently only begun to let us in on what is not secret in China and the Far East if one understands Chinese and looks for it.

While there are historical gaps caused by dynasty changes and communist purges, much documentation of individuals apparently exists from various available historical resources. For example, his very specific reference to Bai Chieh back to fujian from Taiwan with the specific change (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=24705&perpage=15&pagenumber=5[/url), CHUN JING CHIE LIK, that appeared only then in Wing Chun and Fujien White Crane beginning in August 1683.

Following the Phoenix' posts is a favorite pasttime. :D The correct history informs us of what are the fundamental breakthroughs unique to Wing Chun methodology, so that it can be carried on in the art. Obviously, when others fabricate history, the honorable thing to do in Buddhism is to point it out. :D The teacher's responsibility is to show the truth.

Regards,

TjD

08-24-2003, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by John Weiland

Following the Phoenix' posts is a favorite pasttime. :D The correct history informs us of what are the fundamental breakthroughs unique to Wing Chun methodology, so that it can be carried on in the art. Obviously, when others fabricate history, the honorable thing to do in Buddhism is to point it out. :D The teacher's responsibility is to show the truth.

again i agree :D i enjoy hendrik's posts greatly myself and would definately love a definitive history of WC as well. however, i do think these things are a slippery slope are often used to give people an excuse to not train hard. yip man stripped away much of the mysticism from wing chun, and i think with good reason. distraction by "oh i will learn dim mak and be unstoppable!" or "i will learn the ancient buddhist techniques and be unstoppable" are plain silly. the only way to be unstoppable is to practice hard, but most people look for excuses to be lazy.

i think a history should be left as that, but sometimes i see posts in these lines being carried away towards wishful thinking.

but, i'm probably just being overcritical as always! :D definately one of my failings :D

Phenix

08-24-2003, 11:43 PM

Hi Travis, John, Joy, rene, paul, KJ.....

IMHO,

"I" think it is not fair to not let our western or may be better say "international" brothers and sisters of WCK to aware of there are things from the past we can refer to when we need them. Such as when we need to learn about something we can go check in the library. or when we need or interested to learn about how the ancestors doing thier inch punch. or when we want/interested to learn about the psychology/mind state of the ancestors doing SLT....... list goes on.

"I" believe, we need to have access to be able to study about the evolution of the art ( physical, mental, technics...) . This is because sometimes when we are in a cross road, we might need some reference. we can look at what happen in the past, understand what might be the issues, issues to be solved, and might be able to predict the trend for the future.

IMHO,
For example, since there are so many dimention involve in an martial art, such as technics in application, physical conditioning.......

so, say, in term of energy generation, White crane after 1683 was still a "little hard" eventhough they have the "modern technology--- inch power" at that time. So, time passed by, things changes.... and some see there is a softer or better way or wholesome way of generating more power. So, things evolve, and ,there the SLT was invent, and by 1820, "improve " versions of white crane shows up...

Since we know, White crane grow out of itself, and stay very healthy for past 300 more years,

so for WCK's future, if using this evolution patten as a model,
WCK might grow in the direction of:
importing say BJJ,
WCK might grow in the direction of say importing or immitating TaiJi for health.......
some family of WCK might embrace the past and grow.
some family of wck might decide to cut away the past and grow...

and, for those who wants to embrace the past and keep growing, they might interested in certain expect of history or historical development process which can be in application, mental, qi... whatever....
as for the one who wants to cut away the burden in the past might also benifit from seeing what is the trend of not usefullness of certain aspect of the art which can may be to be cut away.

But, WCK cannot stay still, cannot live in the past. as we see from the history those White Crane guys are great martial artis who involve in militan and say the general Sze who brought Bai Chieh back.. but still it keeps improve and grow...

Years ago, "I" was in an manager training meeting in Boston host by a world class company. This company bring in a top marketing pyschologis, a prof of Boston Univ if memory serve. he is a french gentlement. in the presentation he gave, he mention about the space museum. He told us museum is not that great because nothing can be done for the past. past has been completed. so one goes to the space museum and look at apolo 11th. great. but it is not lively. it doesn't motivate one..... it is dead. thus, his view, is something needs to be alive. History is great but if it cannot bring one the future then it is dead and has not much use. thus, a company, it can be a greatest company in the world, but if it is history without future. it is done, and gone. ONe cannot promote a company with its past. I think his words has great deal of truth. NOw, people might got an idea about oh Hendrik is sacastic again. No, I am not. I am just trying to point out in general that what can we learn as a whole so wck disregrads of lineage can prosper.

so, history is for grow. Buddhism/taoism/TCM / art of war.... the real intention to understand them is we need their terminology and model to understand different espect of the art. Without understanding a big pice of this, the transfer of art is incomplete. IMHO. we cannot afford a fortune telling, myth, and black magic way of art. Because we are facing a very system matic future way of living to come. today, using a few millions transistors to design a chip in our computer which subject to process variation, temperature variation....... parasitics influnce....can be done within a few months and running with a yield of 80% above in production. WCK will not survive if it stuck at fortune telling, myth, and black magic..... . There is no short cut when it comes to technology, it is about an accumulative or well define goals, expectation, details, and flawless execution. (Ok not flawless but 80% flawless KJ :D)

May be after a few years when my stories come to an end. you will figure out, what I am trying to do all these time is to dig out all the mambo jumbo, play someone who put lots of important in it, analize the heck out of it, and past to next one.... until somedays there is no more secret, no more black magic, and it is simple and clear.
The art transfer has to be at a large degree transfered (both soft and hard ware) otherwise there is no great future. In my crazy opinion. and you certainly can disagree with me. I can accept that since I am no god.

Just my two cents.

well people can start shooting me now :D. well, I will keep sing the stary stary night. :D
Who says an artist and philosopher's life is easy and everyone will agree upon anyway? look at history. :D

I rather go study Vachelon Constantine watches. Vachelon started at 1790's? I guess. :D WCK is too boring the art of making fine watches is more interesting this day. :D
There are Trinity in watchers makers too in the history so that is very MATRIX. :D

TjD

08-25-2003, 12:57 AM

mabye just playing the devil's advocate here :D

i think the best history can do for us in WC is to give us a good set of kuen kuit.

too many names and words get in the way of good WC. with the kuen kuit as the moon in the distance and a good teacher to make sure our finger doesn't go too far astray there will be the best progress.

good WC must be felt out and understood, not rationalized; the words get in the way of the meaning. progression must be made by the individual by improving their own level of understanding directed towards those kuen kuit.

with the kuen kuit as the moon, a true study can take WC as far as they want; to the moon - mabye even beyond! a good study can even make up for a poor teacher.

with the forms as examples and chi sau as a basic drill, even if poorly demonstrated, a good study with a firm eye on the kuen kuit can create good WC out of misunderstanding.

the real question is do we have a good set of kuen kuit to work towards? are they missing anything? are some of our philosophies incorrect or not optimal?

Phenix

08-25-2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by TjD

the real question is do we have a good set of kuen kuit to work towards? are they missing anything? are some of our philosophies incorrect or not optimal?

Travis,

there are Kuen kuit, there are Kuen Po ( similar to music book of the symphony, which include move, mind, breathing, technics.., body and functions)

ok if you look at it, the bridge type of kuen kuit of WCK such as bridge then crosss the bridge on top..... can be found in white crane colection. The terminology, such as Bo Pai sau ( hugging stone plaq hand) appear in white crane collection, the center line theory is there also.... ect, then, if you look closely at the Bubishi the karate boook which pubished the white crane technics in old time, you can even see the example of people rising knee and what method other take the person down,.... all are there, lots of things. ... so grapper kind of technics are not new... and raising the leg has its pro and con which some examples clearly shown.

NOW, is that any kuen kuit is the ultimate? NO. they are just key point's , mile stone, ideas........ Art is technics practice so much that it has its own life. Thus, art at that point is beyond technics and kuen kuit. Such as if you watch some of Oyama's clip, you can see he fought different people differently, but effective and simple. he is not fighting to prove his skill but he just walk in and drop the other guy. same with Osense of aikido, just go there and throw whoever in the way..... until get to this level, IMHO, it is difficult to say one is the real master.

See, say in WCK, if one always starts in a lead hand or Tan Sau position, or bai jong.., the thai or whoever say the praying mantis or Pek Kua people will love it.

They will using leg sweep of hand to knock out the tan hand. it is true that we said, oh go for the body, but if some one broken our wrist with fast sweep round horse kick or inward chop can us still fight with single hand? so rephrase the question, if the opponent take down a wcner's one hand, how effective is wck after that? same with the lead leg whether it is in one leg stand or both on floor, if the lead leg got damage. then what happen.
one time a wcner touching hand and playing with another wcner in SEA . and after that one wcner makes comment on how bad the skill of fighting of the others wcner always giving him side to enter and one arm , it is not wc.....while we were eating supper.... and my comment to him is that watch out, I think the other wckner is testing his worse case position, in the real fight you might be taken down in no time.... ofcause I can be wrong for that conversation since I might not know what I am talking about.
But, if the opponents has a stratergy to first taking down one wcner's arm, is it a great strategy to destroy wcner? my stupid question, how many train in singer hand ....

It is true about going for the body, but which is closer ? so one has to have experience. following the kuen kuit or the way of bridging the gap roboticly is going to get one into trouble. truely, in 1970's SEA, if one put the lead hand a distance too far from the body, then that lead hand better watch out ... as it said " if there is bridge cross the bridge, if there is door open, get in from the door." yes, target the body not chasing hand, but whats wrong is destroy the bridge and then go to the body? CK means destroy bridge for someone right? Ofcause there are people who is more skill then me will see things different which I can learn the magic. I am just relay what my flash back which is in a very low level of kung fu, and I can be dead wrong.

and honestly, there are people has tons of Kuen Kuit and Kuen po but inteprating them as they like it clueless at all to the reality ( chinese writing always has to refer to other older writing to be safe on the meaning instead of just inteprating the way one likes.) . That is a disaster even greater than if one has no Kuen kuit.

let me tell you some sad stories
there is a kuit which is saying place one's mind in a certain location of arm. however, up to now, i have been seeing again and again due to accidental erro, lots of people read it as the "magic finger flowing under....." so, don't know whether to laugh and cry. Then, there is people who copy lots of stuffs and claim it is the wck kuen po but infact it is from lam sai weng's book without checking out where those kuen po is from.

Just my two cents
enough for my crazy ideas. hahahha, i am going for a few weeks to vacation!

reneritchie

08-25-2003, 07:57 AM

One of the interesting things in Hendrik's theory, which most others currently lack, is that they give meaning back to the legends. Most modern theories (even my own to some degree) basically turn the legends (Ng Mui, Mui Shun, Yim WingChun, etc) into something someone at some point just made up -- they have no meaning other than a cover story pulled out of thin air.

With Hendrik's theory, we can understand why there is someone called Ng Mui who came from White Crane. It becomes allegory -- a story drawn with meaning.

In the West much of WCK's fine details have been lost. We have 'palm up block' instead of sense of Tan as dispersing or spreading out, as the water element. We have 'goat restraining' instead of a sense of Kim Yeung, clamping the Yang meridians in the leg for specific structural reasons, and with its history as the siege of Guangzhou by the Red Turban Rebellion.

While these details may be meaningless to some, and probably won't really effect the majority of WCK, they are part of our collective history, and now can be part of our legacy as well.

I don't know if we'll ever know for sure (anyone claiming 'historical fact' proves a lack of either) but step by step, we are getting there, slowly, surely, richly, rewardingly.

Thanks Hendrik!

yuanfen

08-25-2003, 08:15 AM

Comments on Hendrik's posting;

NOW, is that any kuen kuit is the ultimate? NO. they are just key point's , mile stone, ideas........

((Agree completely. Also people try to read the kuit mechanically
and miss the innere meanings without good and mature intuition or good guidance.))

Art is technics practice so much that it has its own life. Thus, art at that point is beyond technics and kuen kuit. Such as if you watch some of Oyama's clip, you can see he fought different people differently, but effective and simple. he is not fighting to prove his skill but he just walk in and drop the other guy. same with Osense of aikido, just go there and throw whoever in the way..... until get to this level, IMHO, it is difficult to say one is the real master.

((Experience is of course important and being able to quickly analyze an opponent. BTW - some heresy here- even though O Sensei showed superb timing in the extant films---his opponents were "willing" students and their "attacks" seem to be half hearted and respectful. At times he even directed his students to do something to some part of the body. Aikido may be great for self discovery butI am not as impressed with it as a fighting art-Segal not withstanding))

See, say in WCK, if one always starts in a lead hand or Tan Sau position, or bai jong.., the thai or whoever say the praying mantis or Pek Kua people will love it.

((Depending on who it is and whther the baijong is alive or dead-
the non wing chun person may be in for a real surprise. I think that Hendrik is overgeneralizing on this point. But a dead or stiff or overextended bai jong with poor timing is a different matter IMO. Again, the devil is in the details.))

They will using leg sweep of hand to knock out the tan hand.

((No- not necessarily. Against robotic wing chun -yes))

i am going for a few weeks to vacation!

((What? Lucky you...I thought you went to Yosemite recently.
Vacation? What is that? Heard rumors about that chap from time to time!))
Joy Chaudhuri

method man

08-25-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by PaulH

I HAVE HEARD SEVERAL VARIATIONS OF THE FAMILY TREE AND DON'T KNOW WHICH IS TRUE. I AM SEVENTH GENERATION AND LEARNED FROM SIFU YIP MAN. WHAT I AM TEACHING IS NOT DUNCAN LEUNG WING CHUN. IT IS WHAT I WAS TAUGHT BY YIP MAN. SINCE I AM USING IT FOR SO MANY YEARS APPLYING THE PRINCIPLES I CALL IT APPLIED WING CHUN.

what a crock says he dont care about lineage then let slip he SEVENTH GENERATION da'man definitely cares just not going to share it with you because who the heck are you to him anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

method man

08-25-2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by canglong

Yes, there is a difference between anything related to the topic is relavent and everything related to the topic having been found to be factual. Yes again, wc history is very interesting. Hendrik is always asking others for factual evidents so now that he is presenting his arguments and we see the theory the next logical step in the process is for him or others to provide the public some factually based corroborated evidence.

yup still wating for vtm do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

want more? READ THE BOOK! sound like friggin' Dianetics :P

method man

08-25-2003, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Chango
See you later mate! you see Rene I have no business saying this LOL! A guy from the hood in the US has no business saying "mate." that's how your 80's rap lingo looks from here ROFLOL!
Remember this is all in good fun! even you should get a laugh at that!!!

very funny

even funnier is da'hood moving to middle of nowher ohio :D

reneritchie

08-25-2003, 09:06 AM

LOL! If you don't back up your theories, people keep asking you for evidence. If you do, people say 'nothing new'. ROFLOL! No wonder people make up stories!

Tom Kagan

08-25-2003, 09:34 AM

Moy Yat advocated a museum. Does not follow that he was given an exclusive mantle. It was a nice idea that has gone awry towards the end of Moy yat's life and certainly since Moy Yat's death. The estrangement with the Moy yat family is fairly obvious. And most well established Ip man lines have not given the museum the kind of endorsement needed for it to be anywhere near Moy Yat's idea. .

Actually, he advocated a Tong. At the time, Moy Yat was privately annoyed when the Ving Tsun Athletic Association asked him not to use "Tong" or "Chi" in the name - so much so he subtly carved their request into a small stone sitting in one of the cases and made me write the english version of the request.

Perhaps someone else would have ignored their request. I don't think he would be annoyed about it anymore. For what it's worth, Moy Yat's real dream is alive and well at the Ip Man Tong - a place for his Sifu.

What I like most about the Ip Man Tong is that it is in a public courtyard garden. People are sitting around reading, kids are playing, babies are crying, street performers are hustling - it's very alive and vibrant. Museums are places where the past is seen through a looking glass, or a bell jar, from today. Gardens are about the DNA of the past blossuming into the beauty of today and growing into future with a bit of tending to by the gardener.

Chango

08-25-2003, 04:22 PM

Hendrick and others,
It is as simple as this. If the VTM was not mentioned on this post. This post would not have the life that it has. I personally have no interest in bickering about who is right or wrong. I don't see where this will change anyone's mind. Hendrik you have your white crane theory you have laid out your case. To quote my grand mother once again " That's nice baby. What ever you say baby." But of course she would be saying this only after I would do something outrageous to get her attention. Not saying your theory is outrageous but your mentioning the VTM directly in an attempt in bating VTM supporters.

Method Man wrote:
even funnier is da'hood moving to middle of nowher ohio

--Not where I'm at now but "where I'm from" (90's digable planets Quote) Not to mention it doesn't matter where your housing projects are in Amercia it's still concidered "Da hood" ROFLOL! But my Parents lived in Detroit MI while I was coming up. But don't sleep on Ohio Method man!

planetWC wrote: Someone forgot to inform 50 Cent that the term Homies is no longer used

---It's all about context my nizzle LOL!
once again if you look closely with 50, Homie only refers to people in his set, Click, Gang, family etc... you know "his peeps" Not just a few casual chaps or mates on a internet forum! LOL!

PlanetWC wrote: the hottest Rap act on the planet

-- I personally like 50's album better but correction Eminem is the hottest rap act on the planet right now. Tupac and Biggie are the legends and Rakim is the God. 50, nelli etc... are some of the top new Acts! Right now.

You seem to judge "Rap acts" by record sales I guess this alone tells me how far this conversation can go on this topic. ROFLOL! If you don't understand you never will!

Sifu Chango Noaks

yuanfen

08-25-2003, 05:27 PM

Tom- I gather from your description that the Ip Man Tong has blended very much into the surrounding environment and life.
Thanks for the insight into Moy Yat's wishes.... and the Tong and Museum labels.

joy

Joy

Rolling_Hand

08-25-2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Chango

Hendrick and others,
It is as simple as this. If the VTM was not mentioned on this post. This post would not have the life that it has. I personally have no interest in bickering about who is right or wrong. I don't see where this will change anyone's mind. Hendrik you have your white crane theory you have laid out your case. To quote my grand mother once again " That's nice baby. What ever you say baby." But of course she would be saying this only after I would do something outrageous to get her attention. Not saying your theory is outrageous but your mentioning the VTM directly in an attempt in bating VTM supporters.

----------------------------------------

Hi Chango,

I agree with you. Has Hendrik laid out his case? How many times has Hendrik posted his white crane theory on a internet forum? One, no, ten, no, 50, no, 100+...!!! We do not, as a rule, really watch his outrageous posts. Even those who spend a lot of time in front of them, consuming post after post, do not really understand them. Hm...!? Like watch television, start by cutting out the sound, and watch. First at all, you'll be invaded by a sense of the ridiculous. Is there a problem for those who misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions from the sutras, the white crane, the MTV ...etc??????

Roger

reneritchie

08-25-2003, 07:34 PM

Chango was a fiend before he became a teen
playin Siu Nim Tao
and then Chum Kiu or Biu Jee
orientated so when the Muk Jong was insinuated
fitted like pieces of the puzzle
but not complicated
so he took the pole and tried to say 'yes y'all'
they tried to mock it
saying it was too small
cool
he didn't get upset
kicked a hole in their chests
grabbed the some Chi Sao
and he jet...

(with apologies to lord Rakim...)

(Who was only god when Chuck D. was on holiday...)

yuanfen

08-25-2003, 07:35 PM

If Hendrik is misquoting the sutras- the simple thing would be show how and where.
He apparentlywill be away on vacation but he is big enough
to discuss demonstrable errors I think.

Train

08-26-2003, 12:41 AM

I totally understand what Sifu Noaks and Rollinghand is saying. Hendrik always mention how White crane and emei is related to WC and yet everybody saids that HFY is a marketing ploy..... hmmmm it seems like Phenix is doing a lot more marketing than the VTM. I also find it funny when Hendrik talks about Buddhism becuase all the Buddhist i know are very humble and they very seldom argue with people. Hendrik is a feisty little fella. When i read his posts, he doesn't like people telling him that he's wrong. Doesn't seem like he gots any Buddhist nature in him. Maybe he does, who knows. Hendrik could be a cool person in person. Maybe he's like this when he's in forums, like road rage but he has forum rage or something :) J/K

Rene,

Dang Hommie, aight already!! you don't have to prove that you know rap music.... come on dog!! :) Everything just sounds funny when you read ebonics on a kung fu forum hehehehe..... Anyways..... Peace Fellas

reneritchie

08-26-2003, 06:54 AM

Train,

I am, in this, aghast. Prithee, dear sir, accept my most humble of apologies. Forasmuch as I remain, as ever, unafflicted by the cruelest palsy of eld, I shall heretofor refrain from bringing any small semblance of joy or mirth to this noble forum. Or not.

Joy,

Remember, this is the 'net. I could type that User 165 killed my cat. Maybe I don't even live in the same hemisphere as User 165, maybe I never had a cat, but the rumor, lazy and dishonorable, will remain. That's the 'net.

08-26-2003, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Train
Hendrik always mention how White crane and emei is related to WC and yet everybody saids that HFY is a marketing ploy..... hmmmm it seems like Phenix is doing a lot more marketing than the VTM.
From an objective reader’s perspective, and from having endured similar challenges in the past, I can somewhat understand the frustration. I offer the following thoughts only in the spirit of sharing observations on the phenomenon, and in some small hope it may narrow the canyon of viewpoints even by a millimeter. While I have objective and subjective viewpoints as everyone does, I like to fancy myself as a non-partizan observer on the more historically oriented debates.

I think some differences in perceptions may be attributed to open presentation of known existing evidence. Hendrik has amassed quite a lot of documented evidence which support his thesis. The HFY and/or VTM folks have reportedly done likewise. Hendrik shares much of what he has quite freely with people regardless of lineage affiliation; examples both here on the forum and with a variety of people from various lineages one-on-one, and allowing for some degree of independent corroboration on several levels. Hendrik also consistently presents his ideas as theories to be challenged, rather than stating them as fact.

In contrast, and perhaps of some real necessity, much of the VTM source evidence and even certain pieces of oral information appear intentionally held close to the vest; this will naturally raise unquenchable questions, and sometimes bits of suspicion for those not on the "inside" or in the know about those evidential links. Hopefully the forthcoming book will put much of this to rest, by revealing much of what thus far has only been hinted at to the general public.

None of this changes truth, of course, but only impacts perceptions of truth which is the stuff internet forums and other such interactions are made of.

I also find it funny when Hendrik talks about Buddhism becuase all the Buddhist i know are very humble and they very seldom argue with people. Hendrik is a feisty little fella.
I am no expert in Buddhism. My own faith reminds me to be mindful of the big friggin’ mote in my own eye first. I must agree, however, that Hendrik is a feisty fella. :D

When i read his posts, he doesn't like people telling him that he's wrong.
FWIW, I think this may be perception. I have seen him repeatedly asking, almost begging to be shown wrong, not by argument alone, but with tangible supporting evidence. Again, perhaps and hopefully more of this will be forthcoming with the October HFY book, and put some of the perennial questions to rest. Of course new evidence always raises new questions; in this case if not about HFY then about WCK more generally. Objective inquiry avoids predicting the outcome.

Doesn't seem like he gots any Buddhist nature in him. Maybe he does, who knows.
Again, I'm distinctly no expert in Buddhism. While discussions of the subject are on occasion interesting, I admit that I don’t find it especially compelling in a WC context, save as historical glue, and in the same fashion that many philosophical concepts and models are interconnected. With respect to individual natures, I have generally been as hard pressed to see perfection in individual Buddhists as in Christians or those of other faiths. We are all human.

I still retain hope that there is some small good buried in most of us. Reason, character, and kindness are not in the sole purview of any particular Wing Chun lineage or faith. Sometimes there is too much of the "blue-eye vs. brown-eye" experiment happening.

Hendrik could be a cool person in person.
He is indeed. In a different context, you might even find yourselves as fast friends. I hope you will both have the opportunity to meet each other one day, and to see each other in a different and much gentler light.

Reminding myself I’m in the midst of a minefield, I go gingerly back to my hidey-hole now.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

method man

08-26-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Train
I also find it funny when Hendrik talks about Buddhism becuase all the Buddhist i know are very humble and they very seldom argue with people. Hendrik is a feisty little fella. When i read his posts, he doesn't like people telling him that he's wrong. Doesn't seem like he gots any Buddhist nature in him. Maybe he does, who knows.

u need 2 get out more i kno couple hundred buddhists very much like phenix very fiesty. the difference????? they dont learn wc they dont have computer they dont post here. if they do then they exactly like phenix believe me.

reneritchie

08-26-2003, 08:44 AM

Most 'Buddhists' you see in the west are pseudo-*, more like 60s left overs, or Disney film emulations. All cliche. You can't have it both ways, though, with Shaolin monks kicking butt in the movies, then people crying when Hendrik disagrees with someone on the internet.

Look at the crazy behavior many of the so-called Christians do around here. Not much turning of the cheek, or loving their neighbor, or judging not. Be getting thine own houses in order.

People are people. Hendrik is a real Buddhist, its not a fad for him or something from another culture he got into, or some Bruce Lee/Shaw Bros. trip for the disenfranchised. It's his culture, his religion, his way of life, and he's studied it with some of the best in the world. Adjust perceptions and continue living...

yuanfen

08-26-2003, 08:46 AM

Bracketed responses to Train:

I totally understand what Sifu Noaks and Rollinghand is saying.

((Not surprising!!!)))

Hendrik always mention how White crane and emei is related to WC and yet everybody saids that HFY is a marketing ploy..... hmmmm it seems like Phenix is doing a lot more marketing than the VTM.

((Marketing? No Hendrik T shirts, videos, sifu certifications,
tuition contracts-----just an effort at engagement. He is interested and active in both wing chun and trying to understand its foundations))

I also find it funny when Hendrik talks about Buddhism becuase all the Buddhist i know are very humble and they very seldom argue with people.

((Funny? Poor survey. Buddhist "dialectics" is well known specially
in many branches of Dhyan and Vajra. See Nagarjuna and the logic of negation. Many sutras including the surangama involve
dialectics and engagement. Invitation to constructive dialogue
can be humble at its roots but engaging in its affects.
Why make hendrik a focus rather than the points he tries to make.
There are aspects of wing chun where my perspectives are different from his and I have engaged him on those- without making him the focal point- as several folks repeatedly do in trolling or hijacking-therby inflating the thread. When we differ- and we have- we do without hostility.
The thread was/is/should be about Ng Mui not Hendrik))

PaulH

08-26-2003, 08:48 AM

I believe you, Method Man! Expectation never quite meets the eyes. When I was young and gullible, my mon sent me to a convent to learn piano to soften the beastie in me. Back then a popular tune of something like "You are so sweet, Sister" was a big hit, and I got fooled into believing that my teacher would be a kind and gentle soul. Anyway, I played these beautiful wrong notes to her ears, and the "soft eyes" paid me in kind with solid whackings on the fingers. The merciless instrument of correction was a rather long and heavy ruler. Hendrik could very well be one of those colorful people. To sum up, you don't know me, Al! Much of what we heard about the person is nothing.

Regards,

old jong

08-26-2003, 08:50 AM

I agree!...This thread is about Ng Mui,whatever he was really a guy or even existed in the first place.

yuanfen

08-26-2003, 09:05 AM

Paul H sez:
Anyway, I played these beautiful wrong notes to her ears, and the "soft eyes" paid me in kind with solid whackings on the fingers. The merciless instrument of correction was a rather long and heavy ruler.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------Interesting- different paths... my mom in her time used the whole arsenal- smaller escrima type of sticks, longer "lathis" and other inventions.
I found out years later that she had taken lessons from the late Pulin Behari das- who was the greatest stick and knife fighting teacher-guru in Bengal in the early twentieth century- and is mentioned in Draeger- Smiths Asian fighting Arts.
Ng Mui had to be more peaceful--
in times of trouble.Ng Mui comes to me- speaking words of wisdom- let it be let it be.

yuanfen

08-26-2003, 09:13 AM

Bracketed responses to Train:

I totally understand what Sifu Noaks and Rollinghand is saying.

((Not surprising!!!)))

Hendrik always mention how White crane and emei is related to WC and yet everybody saids that HFY is a marketing ploy..... hmmmm it seems like Phenix is doing a lot more marketing than the VTM.

((Marketing? No Hendrik T shirts, videos, sifu certifications,
tuition contracts-----just an effort at engagement. He is interested and active in both wing chun and trying to understand its foundations))

I also find it funny when Hendrik talks about Buddhism becuase all the Buddhist i know are very humble and they very seldom argue with people.

((Funny? Poor survey. Buddhist "dialectics" is well known specially
in many branches of Dhyan and Vajra. See Nagarjuna and the logic of negation. Many sutras including the surangama involve
dialectics and engagement. Invitation to constructive dialogue
can be humble at its roots but engaging in its affects.
Why make hendrik a focus rather than the points he tries to make.
There are aspects of wing chun where my perspectives are different from his and I have engaged him on those- without making him the focal point- as several folks repeatedly do in trolling or hijacking. When we differ- and we have- we do without hostility.
The thread was/is/should be about Ng Mui not Hendrik))

canglong

08-26-2003, 09:21 AM

In contrast, and perhaps of some real necessity, much of the VTM source evidence and even certain pieces of oral information appear intentionally held close to the vest; this will naturally raise unquenchable questions, and sometimes bits of suspicion for those not on the "inside" or in the know about those evidential links.--kj

Do you have any examples of this because opinions can and will vary.

Origninally posted by Rolling_Hand
I agree with you. Has Hendrik laid out his case? How many times has Hendrik posted his white crane theory on a internet forum? One, no, ten, no, 50, no, 100+...!!! We do not, as a rule, really watch his outrageous posts.
Agreed no matter how many times Hendrik post he can not make white crane into wing chun.
Originally posted by ReneRitchie
This story would then carry down to the WCK system as the Ng Mui, Yim Wingchun legend?

Jim Roselando

08-26-2003, 09:55 AM

Hello,

Boy is this funny! Gone for a while and the same stuff still going on!

Ok! For all those Hendrik info. bashers! It seems that the biggest question all have to say is;

"Agreed no matter how many times Hendrik post he can not make white crane into wing chun"

For all the people who fall into this category would you please list what you feel WC was developed from?

So far, Yip Man, Yuen Kay San, Koo Lo and Cho all list White Crane in their history as part of their roots. So, if its not part of our roots then what is your belief? If you believe it came from Shaolin then what form of Shaolin (or whatever art you believe gave birth to WC) was its roots?

Once this is tackled then the conversation may grow!

Regards,

Chango

08-26-2003, 12:10 PM

Hello Jim R,
I find your question to be quite interesting. But I think the answer that you beg is quite more complecated then just a one style or form question. when you read the VTM's article you will find that the term "Paradigm shift" is used. This pointing to a different approach in thinking. So we must understand that WCK had to formed out of a different process. Not one of adhiring to a style or expriences of a single person.

We find that when we study Chi sim and HFY we see that these systems are based on Ch'an foundation not a style (if you will). So by sighting this shift in thinking we will find that WCK would not simply mimic previous styles. (for lack of a better term) But demand that one learns through direct experiences challenging every aspect of what is being taught.

I find that the three systems that I have been a very much a part of Yip man, Chi Sim, and Hung Fa Yi. Only CS and HFY directly begins it's training from Ch'an concepts. As a matter of fact these systems simply could not be understood without a grasp of such concepts. You would not grasp the nature of HFY or CS with out grasping concepts in Ch'an!

Both of these systems share a direct Shaolin history. I find it quite amazing how much these two systems share. I also find it amazing how I can see (conceptually) the Yip man system with in these systems but not these systems in the Yip man.

When I say Yip Man system I have to sight the fact that I'm not just talking about one Yip Man lineage. I have a good cross section of expriences. Through my work at the VTM I have had first hand experiences with more then 8 grand masters and with some of these Grand Master's top students! So I have a good collection of yip man experiences to draw my conclusions. Maybe I offend people by asking them who are you? and what do you know? but I really need to know what information are they using to draw thier conclusions.

Rene,
When I say "Rakim is the God" that was a street term used to say that he is on a different level and should not be compaired to any other rapper. Rakim's lyrics are the subject matter for college courses in poetry. being sighted for thier complicated structure and dynamic subject matter.

It is arguable that Rakim is and was the most skill MC to ever do it. For example KRS-one a God in his own right. With out question these gentlemen have taken rap to new levels when there was nothing there. These gents posses skills unmatched by any other. I might be wrong but the Term God originated in the Jazz era and became timeless slang Like "man" and "Cool" The first time I heard the term used main stream was WU Tang Clan. Killa priest if I'm not mistaken. But before that it was something I had heard for years in the hood.

Rene Keep in mind the radio songs are never the best an MC has to offer. here is one of many of masterpeaces from Rakim.

http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=Ctgju0V%2F64M%3D

I choose this one becuase it deals with the state of mind that you have when you have been to real war! I think it fits the subject of combat training :)

Sifu Chango Noaks

reneritchie

08-26-2003, 12:26 PM

Hey Chango,

The paradigm shift theory is a neat one, that rather cleverly allows us to 'sidestep' around the historical development issues of the art (not quite as elegantly as the Taiji 'it came from a dream from the gods' but by the same token, not as fantastic). But to quote the oft parroted 'nothing new', there would still be underlying material from which the physical movements were drawn (see some of the good books on Taiji or even BJJ development for serious examples of how this can be done).

On Rakim, I do agree with his divinity in lyrics, matched seemlessly by Eric B.s music, I just feel Chuck had the edge because, no matter how good Rakim's rhymes, Chuck reached a level where he didn't even have to really rhyme anymore and you'd still think he did--not even miss a beat. But it was just him. Just his voice.

http://www.publicenemy.com/lyrics/lyrics/welcome-to-the-terrordome.php

Chango

08-26-2003, 01:01 PM

Rene wrote:The paradigm shift theory is a neat one, that rather cleverly allows us to 'sidestep' around the historical development issues of the art (not quite as elegantly as the Taiji 'it came from a dream from the gods' but by the same token, not as fantastic).

After reading this Rene it seems you have not experienced the paradigm shift that is needed to truely understand these systems. I found that to be a difficult hurtle to get over myself. That being said I understand why you would dismiss it. But you really should watch your wording! your tone speaks as if it was thought up with an intention to "sidestep". I can only say that you do not fully understand the approach of these two systems if you cannot identify what this shift is. I know that you have done the book/internet or even paper work. So at this point I can only hope with your future experiences you can have this Shift.

Rene,
I'm probrably one of the biggest P.E. fans. Yeah Chuck is a great Rapper but let's keep in mind that he relies on his delivery not his so much his lyrical content (although is top notch but not God status) It's like LL cool J before all of the lip licking LOL! his "rebel yell" style was all about delivery. But if you examine the words nothing spantacular. (even less then Chucks political subject matter) But you can take a Rakim, KRS-one or a Tupac or Biggy lyric and have Martha Stewart read it and it still comes off as superior lyrics. Hey you never know she might end up signiing with Death Row and Sug-night ROFLOl!

No but read that link I showed you. It was written in the 90"s. But it still remains Timeless. He could rerelease that song untouched today and it would apply! Think about it we could go to his 80's material and it would still apply! The man was and is before his time.

http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=fsQzsQXB1uk%3D

Here's a bonus check out the line about the wieght of the world. you know the theory to come up with this figure was done by mathmatic configurations envolving the great pyramids! The R is pretty deep. LOL!

http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=fsQzsQXB1uk%3D

Back to WCK please!

(SGS)

reneritchie

08-26-2003, 01:19 PM

Chango,

Please understand that its possible for two mature adults to have a different opinion without either being 'wrong' or 'not understanding'. Two different judges can look at the same evidence and render different opinions or verdicts. Happens all the time. Neither of us knows the others mind or experiences, likewise neither of us are omniscient enough to say we know it all and infallibly. And I'm not dismissing it. It's hardly new or unique in terms of historical theories, just a different way of accomplishing the same thing (allowing a clean break from what came before which requires less time then a step by step developmental process). In that way, its the same as the old Ng Mui legend where the paradigm shift occurs with a nun watching a snake (or fox) fight, side stepping a developmental process of going from plum blossom (or whatever) to WCK. And please don't assume my tone or nag my words, or find offense in what should be a non-personal discussion. 'Side step' is perfectly valid (even in combat, I hear ;).

I get your point on Rakim vs. Chuck. I prefer Chuck's way of breaking out of the standard patterned rhyme (like Ice-T was locked into short-short-long for a couple albums). I don't think it was all delivery either. Scarface from the Ghetto Boys could deliver, but his content wasn't up with Chuck. Likewise, Paris had awesome delivery, but sacrificed quality for pumping his message. Chuck seemed able to balance both. Big Daddy Kane could do that as well sometimes. EPMD could break pattern, but just never seemed as polished.

Chango

08-26-2003, 03:25 PM

Rene,
Perhaps you mistake my words of warning as being cold or aggressive. I just wanted you to know that your intentions could be questioned by your choice of words and you should have offered some explination. In light of your statements about hijacking. Some could be said about how your words could be taken as being personal in this "Non-personal discussion"

Rene wrote: that rather cleverly allows us to 'sidestep' around the historical development issues of the art (not quite as elegantly as the Taiji 'it came from a dream from the gods' but by the same token, not as fantastic)

Reread this while thinking of it being directed tward your lineage. I didn't take it personal but I just warn that it does come off well you know Etc....

I still feel that you haven't had the shift in thinking. So I feel that you will not understand until you have this expierence. That experience will not happen here. So all I can say at this point is we will see.

You must understand that I'm simply pointing out the Shift in approach. It only makes since that if WCK is a shift in thinking it would have to have it's own identity. I often see some people say :" my WCK got barrowed etc.. from etc..." With this logic then what is being done is not WCK. But some people have a different standard as to what is WCK. So now we have a pardox! It reminds me of some people saying I like to do a particular technique here and another there. Well if our goal is to obtain what is most efficient we cannot just do what we like. physics just will not allow that. This logic escapes alot of people so I find myself understanding the fact that Chat forums and internet Kung fu is very limited and cannot deliver such understandings.
So I hope in your experiences you will find out exactly what I'm saying.

Rap, I have to agree with you about Chuck being one of the hall of fame rappers. Ice T as well. No I'm not saying Chuck didn't have lyrics I was just elaborating a little more on why We call some rappers Legends and some Gods. If I'm not mistaken the term God was referring to the 5% muslims belief that since God created us all in his image that we are Gods on a lower level. However I could be wrong. But I do know that the term God being used in a slang reference to discribe a person's ability in a certain craft. Is the highest of all compliments. Rakim as a Rapper has the highest honors as a rap artist from all levels of the game. Eminem said "if I work with Rakim on a song I'll have to go into the studio for 3 or 4 months just to hold my own. He is simply the best ever!" So we must say this (in a Rasta voice) MUCH RESPECT DUE TO RAKIM AND THE OLDSCHOOL! LOL!!

PaulH

08-26-2003, 05:09 PM

I was reading my friend's article and could not help but to reflect this Ng Mui uncertainty principle on WCK system. How would the discovery of Ng Mui help in understanding further the purpose of the WCK system?

"The knowledge we now have of life at the molecular level has been stitched together from innumerable experiments in which proteins were purified, genes cloned, electron micrographs taken, cells cultured, structures determined, sequences compared, parameters varied, and controls done. Papers were published, results checked, reviews written, blind alleys searched, and new leads fleshed out.

The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell - to investigate life at the molecular level - is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!" The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. The discovery rivals those of Newton and Einstein, Lavoisier and Schrodinger, Pasteur, and Darwin. The observation of the intelligent design of life is as momentous as the observation that the earth goes around the sun or that disease is caused by bacteria or that radiation is emitted in quanta. The magnitude of the victory, gained at such great cost through sustained effort over the course of decades, would be expected to send champagne corks flying in labs around the world. This triumph of science should evoke cries of "Eureka!" from ten thousand throats, should occasion much hand-slapping and high-fiving, and perhaps even be an excuse to take a day off. "

Again, how would this Ng Mui breath new life into our WCK method?

Regards,

planetwc

08-26-2003, 05:18 PM

Sure.

1. Any details on Garret Gee's Sifu Wong Ming...
a.) Is he still alive?

b.) Is he still teaching?
i) Has he been interviewed?
ii) Has he allowed his personal demonstration of the system to be recorded for posterity?

c.) Does he have other active students in China?

d.) Has anyone IN the province he lives in heard of him?

e.) Does he agree with the theories being offered by the HFYM?

f.) How many students completed training under him in the system?

2. What kind of peer review has been done on the VTM research?

Hopefully some of this will change with the upcoming publication of the HFY book. Is there a working title for the book?

Originally posted by canglong

Do you have any examples of this because opinions can and will vary.

Rolling_Hand

08-26-2003, 05:34 PM

Indeed, a paradox for some San Jose folks. Take a subway without trying to get anywhere. It reminds a mystery why Dalai Lama, the holy man, isn't talking to the nosy people. His response is a calm but weary, "No, it's just that I'm not much of a gossip."--RH

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/treplies.asp?message=2089

yuanfen

08-26-2003, 06:24 PM

Paul H- atleast you refer to the Ng Mui title of the thread rather
than engage in the same old trolling and hijacking by the same folks.

Learning wing chun is learning an art whose roots are in a different world...wrenching it and and learning only the mechanics of wing chun...can miss out on the"tacit knowledge" that goes with a deeper understanding of the context of technical knowledge.

There is a big parallel problem- for instance in the development of western technology and technology transfer to the non western world. Modern "science" has elements of a culture--- freedom of thought, open-ness to new knowledge, looking at concepts rather than the race or gender of the presenter and other things that are not always evenly present elsewhere and strange tyrranies can result.

Thorsteun Veblen in the early 20th century pointed out the danger of fast technological development in Germany without reforming the authoritarian structure.

The same parallel holds for learning Asian art, music, literature and martial arts-get a sense of the wider context of what is imported. You will be richer for it.

So the search for Ng Mui can illuminate some tacit things about the nature of the art and its assumptions....breathing, body unity, different jings, strategy.... Still it can be an interesting journey without a destination... like the good modern Greek poem-
"A Journey to Ithaca"..

(On the run- gotta do some wing chun soon..))

canglong

08-26-2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by planetwc
Hopefully some of this will change with the upcoming publication of the HFY book. I doubt that any publication could change your prejudice toward the VTM or HFY.

"The five colors blind the eye.
The five tones deafen the ear.
The five flavors dull the taste.
Racing and hunting madden the mind.
Precious things lead one astray.

Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees.
He lets go of that and chooses this."
--by LAO TSU

David,
Not one question about Hung Fa Yi.
You need to let go of the wing chun culture that is predicated on the belief that my lineage is good because of all the people that come from here and practiced the same kung fu I train today make it so. It is that thinking that leads you to believe your questions are more relavent than the science of hung fa yi itself. In HFY we learn reality over illusion, principle over preference and structure over attributes. We don't learn the answers to questions and then decide to persue hung fa yi we persue hung fa yi and find answers to questions and those answers are much more relavent than the questions you pose.

In short those that study HFY don't say we study under so and so who was taught by so and so who also studied under so and so who is from that place. We say we study hung fa yi and those that know understand and those that don't ask questions.

Savi

08-26-2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Paul H- atleast you refer to the Ng Mui title of the thread rather than engage in the same old trolling and hijacking by the same folks. So long as people continue to mention the HFY or VTM in threads, we will continue to discuss and address questions related to it regardless if the thread is about it or not. The "trolling" and "hijacking" is no different than the Tango, and that takes 2 people.

If this were a matter of me or my fellow kung fu brothers talking about the VTM or HFY out of nowhere, you'd have some grounds to say this. Unfortunately for your point, this is not the case. Getting back on topic does not require the mentioning of "same old trolling and hijacking by the same old folks." Your negative karma will only come back to you.

reneritchie

08-27-2003, 05:47 AM

Chango,

In the quote, please refer your attention to the word 'us', inclusive of you (pl) and I (me). As I said the 'paradigm shift' theory is very common (because it is so handy at tidying up the loose ends). In the traditional legends, it happens when Ng Mui sees animals, or when she adapts animal movements to better suit humans, or when Miu Shun combines her teachings with his own system, or when Ng Mui modifies them to better suit a young girl, or Yim Wingchun modifies her father's system to better suit herself, etc., etc. In yours, it occurs because of Buddhist thinking and/or Ming generals, etc. In mine it occurs due to the confluence of skills swirling aboard the Red Junk. We're all guilty, more or less, of ascribing the uniqueness of WCK to a single point in time where something/everything changed, thus removing the responsibility of actually mapping out piece by piece and step by step how the changes occured and why *in relation to other martial development of the time* (a *lot* more work). And maybe we're right - maybe we don't need to, and it was a person or moment where everything changed. If not, Hendrik is doing the work, going step by step through the time and place of WCK's developing, and mapping out the evolution of the martial technology. And hoorah for him having our backs, just in case 'paradigm shift' doesn't cover everything, and the loose ends turn out to be unravelling.

True, I don't have your experiences. I don't know what you know. But by the same token, you don't have my experiences. You don't know what I know. Perhaps you have access to better information. Perhaps I do. Since we'll likely not know which of us is currently thinking in the right direction for quite a while still, I choose to be happy you are thinking differently, and covering bases I am not, just in case the ball ends up being hit in your direction. Why does the universe exist in the way it does? 'Because otherwise we wouldn't be here to ask the question" just doesn't satisfy me as Gung-Fu thinking, and I don't think it satisfies you either, or you wouldn't be here wasting your time.

Maybe in the end I will experience and come to your understanding. Or you will experience and come to mine. (Whether either of us are authentic enough to admit it or not).

Good Rasta voice. Rakim does have Bobbyland on the run, see! Maximum respect now star!

Phenix

08-27-2003, 07:33 AM

Paradigm shift needs a phylosophy core.
CHAN is a teaching to attain "no self>
thus one needs a lineage and teacher and mind seal.
AVATAMSAKA teaching is the full cosmos dsription by the buddha afte the enlightenment.

So what is a paradigm shtt beyond buddha's teaching . when no one can prove whether CHAN"S trnsmission exist? and chan is about no me, no others, no race, no time. is the teaching accord to these no or not? does the sifu walks the talk of chan even in posting?

Phenix

08-27-2003, 07:49 AM

there are ways to validify paradigm shft.

ask the questions:

1, how do you generate energy? is it the shao lin way? white crane way? taji way? emei way? what is the different? an can your way can generate as much power and as efficient compare with what have exist in the world?

2, what is the basic application shift? is that shift differeniate one from what already exist in the world? and is it usefull? paint a woodern wheel blue is not a paradgm shift in wheel technology because we have come along way to evole and design the four season no slip and effective tire. for example.

"I" am not attacking people, a usefull technology has to has its uniquenes and usefullness and manufacturing capabilities based on cumulative platform even if there is paradigm shft. not to mention those technology which makes the expert say wow. tehnology is not sale pitch where no for platform to support. one always can change one's idea and words in sales pitch`

IMHO . we need a pattent lawyer to evalluate if the paradigm shift is value enough to be pattent . if yes pattent it. sorrry for typo....... typing from a hotel's TV

Phenix

08-27-2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Indeed, a paradox for some San Jose folks. Take a subway without trying to get anywhere. It reminds a mystery why Dalai Lama, the holy man, isn't talking to the nosy people. His response is a calm but weary, "No, it's just that I'm not much of a gossip"

san jose fillls with engineers which power up the whole wolrd with the most modern and paradigm shft technology.
. RH, even your keyboard related to san Jose. hahahaha
so where is your Chan master? Dalai Lama? We in San Jose go even further to Dilgo rienpochi> you might not know how is he

PaulH

08-27-2003, 08:32 AM

Joy,

I appreciate your discussion of the cultural context of WC and its meanings for the modern world. You can't take one of its old developmental aspects out without changing its original content significantly. This gives rise to the speculation of whether WC is really a irreducible complex system by nature - somethings that Hendrik hinted often with all the bodies' talk. "More is less" could well be the new strange twist to this Ng Mui's tale.

Regards,

yuanfen

08-27-2003, 08:50 AM

Planet Wing chun asks:

1. Any details on Garret Gee's Sifu Wong Ming...
b.) Is he still teaching?
---------------------------------------------------------
((After all the bally hoo about going to the source:
Phil R. asked basically that type of a question on the HFY forum-
he was clearly told by the head man that is information limited to their group and not a public matter.

BTW in taichi for decades the claimed story was that a mysterious Chan Fan Seng (even witha drawing or two) dveloped taichi asa martial art in very ancient times. Then post cultural revolution
scholarly scrutiny (Doug Wile. Chen village elders. Other scholars
except for some Chen Man Ching devotees) fairly clearly outlined the lineage from 1630s Chen Wanting to CXW, Chens through
Yang Lu Chan(sp) to Yang stylists, Chens to the two Wus. The
historical tracing was not irrelevant- it also outlined the course of silk reeling, fajing- its continuation in Chen and its erosion elsewhere.
Open discussion of wing chun roots (Ng Mui included) and discussing hypotheses sans dogma, rancour or personal attacks could do the same for many in our art.
Todate we have(regarding origins)- the standard (Ip man) Ng Mui thesis, the Red Boat(Rene etc) thesis, the HFY Chan/battlefield
thesis and the Fujian/Emei thesis.
As far as I am concerned they are all tentative- but it is to Hendrik's great credit that he has welded many sources together
and is willing to compare evidence. My friend Vishnu thinks it all came from Vishnu's dream.))
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sic:"We don't learn the answers to questions and then decide to persue hung fa yi we persue hung fa yi and find answers to questions and those answers are much more relavent than the questions you pose."
-----------------------------------------------------------
((Compatible with Chan epistemology?))

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Savi sez responding to a yuanfen post:
Your negative karma will only come back to you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((A special HFY hex.......!?)))

canglong

08-27-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Savi
So long as people continue to mention the HFY or VTM in threads, we will continue to discuss and address questions related to it regardless if the thread is about it or not. The "trolling" and "hijacking" is no different than the Tango, and that takes 2 people. Savi true enough because it was Hendrik himself who brought the VTM and HFY into this thread.

Originally posted by ReneRitchie
We're all guilty, more or less, of ascribing the uniqueness of WCK to a single point in time where something/everything changed, thus removing the responsibility of actually mapping out piece by piece and step by step how the changes occured and why *in relation to other martial development of the time* (a *lot* more work).
Why guilty if not only is the paradigm shift accurate but those pieces you mentioned before and after can be accounted for as well. To dismiss the possibility all together when it is a plausible theory would just be painting yourself into a corner.

reneritchie

08-27-2003, 09:15 AM

Why guilty if not only is the paradigm shift accurate but those pieces you mentioned before and after can be accounted for as well. To dismiss the possibility all together when it is a plausible theory would just be painting yourself into a corner.

Agreed. If you do and present the work, you've done and presented the work. Then the real work begins.

canglong

08-27-2003, 09:50 AM

yuanfen sez
As far as I am concerned they are all tentative- but it is to Hendrik's great credit that he has welded many sources together and is willing to compare evidence.

Originally posted by Phenix
"Ng Mui is a special term in White Crane.
at my search, found out that,
There is a special term for Sanchin stance in Fujian white Crane.
It is just a simple combination of Miu Shun whoever he is. after falling in love with White Crane's summon the sun, center and else concept. then, naturally merge his system with white crane. created the SLT set and system.
Then, from there it past down.
ok, you can argue, nah that is not Fong Chat-niong, but then you can't argue with me about the CO-INCIDENT of the three point five plum flower term exist in White Crane. It is a Facts."

yuanfen,
There doesn't appear to be a lot of work or evidence involved in welding "special terms" opinion and co-incident. After your earlier post indicating Hendrik has more work to do your last post doesn't seem too compelling an argument.

canglong

08-27-2003, 09:54 AM

Rene,
Cool then I look forward to seeing you at the next seminar.

Jim Roselando

08-27-2003, 10:35 AM

Hello Chango,

Hello Jim!
Hello Jim R,
I find your question to be quite interesting. But I think the answer that you beg is quite more complecated then just a one style or form question. when you read the VTM's article you will find that the term "Paradigm shift" is used. This pointing to a different approach in thinking. So we must understand that WCK had to formed out of a different process. Not one of adhiring to a style or expriences of a single person.

How are you?

I understand your thoughts but just have a hard time believing any story of that nature. Rene gave a few examples of how its just all too common in Martial Art to find stories that link their history in that way and unfortunately its made me a non believer unless evidence can be shown. This does not mean it can't be right but its just my belief!

Let me give you an example! A very famous Penjak guy in the US claims to have had some sort of miracle dream that when he woke up he had this new version from the gods of the art. This person uses a certain logo and is very famous now a days. Now! A good friend of mine was in Singapore (maybe Maylasia "my mind is not what it used to be???") and was wearing his t-shirt with his logo on it for the Dream Silat system. While visiting a martial event someone came up to him and asked where he got that shirt? He told him from the founder in the US. The guy then introduced himself to him and was the head of the Silat family and that was his logo!

Now! I would be any ammount of money that the students of the Silat guy would go to all lengths to protect their teachers story no matter what can be shown. After all, how many of them would ever had known about the real people in Singapore? I dont believe that stuff just comes into development without any substantial roots or links to any other art/structure/concept/etc.. The world we live in grows in a progessive fashion and everything has to have some kind of Link to something or somebody or a group of somebody to show some kind of roots.

Lets take the WC term Bong Sao! We all know the Bong is "Wing" and if we want to start researching this we must list out the few arts that make use of this sort of action. Most South Chinese arts have something very similar to it but many have a different term. Does the White Crane Pai make use of this term? Is the term being Cantonese help use link to certain regions where the art may have developed or linked? What if what if?

Pan Nam makes use of the Tan Sao Ng historical data but also links it to a few arts as its roots. There has to be some link somewhere in the arts history, movements, principles, etc. to show development, region, etc..

I hope you understand my thoughts and I may be right or I may be wrong. Please take no offense!

Thanks for the chat!

Regards,

John Weiland

08-27-2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Paul H- atleast you refer to the Ng Mui title of the thread rather
than engage in the same old trolling and hijacking by the same folks.

Way to go, Paul! :D If Ng Mui is the root of Wing Chun, then her importance is self-evident to any Wing Chun discussion. This said, if someone has another hypothesis, I'd like to see the basis for it.

Learning wing chun is learning an art whose roots are in a different world...wrenching it and and learning only the mechanics of wing chun...can miss out on the"tacit knowledge" that goes with a deeper understanding of the context of technical knowledge.

Historical knowledge as Hendrik has expounded shows the linkage of history and the curriculum of Wing Chun. Knowing the origins of principles and their application makes Wing Chun as an art, all the stronger, which it needs to be if this unique style is to continue to exist. Blending, diluting, changing by those unqualified to know better will lose what is its essence. Humanity's problem is that everyone wants to be a teacher.

There is a big parallel problem- for instance in the development of western technology and technology transfer to the non western world. Modern "science" has elements of a culture--- freedom of thought, open-ness to new knowledge, looking at concepts rather than the race or gender of the presenter and other things that are not always evenly present elsewhere and strange tyrranies can result.

Thorsteun Veblen in the early 20th century pointed out the danger of fast technological development in Germany without reforming the authoritarian structure.

Thorsten Veblen? If he ranted against the rich carrying canes, what would he say about the 6 and a half point pole? :p Good points though. Science is a culture and the scientific method is a breakthrough tool. Thank you Ionians and Anaximander for setting the West on this path. :D Talk about a paradigm shift. :p

The same parallel holds for learning Asian art, music, literature and martial arts-get a sense of the wider context of what is imported. You will be richer for it.

Each of those areas is worthy of a lifetime of study. Folks with a deep background in many areas are rare. This is why I listen when you and Hendrik speak. :)

So the search for Ng Mui can illuminate some tacit things about the nature of the art and its assumptions....breathing, body unity, different jings, strategy.... Still it can be an interesting journey without a destination... like the good modern Greek poem-
"A Journey to Ithaca"..

That's a profound observation.

(On the run- gotta do some wing chun soon..))
That's why I'm late to respond here. :D

Regards,

Rolling_Hand

08-27-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
"Ng Mui is a special term in White Crane.
at my search, found out that,
There is a special term for Sanchin stance in Fujian white Crane.
It is just a simple combination of Miu Shun whoever he is. after falling in love with White Crane's summon the sun, center and else concept. then, naturally merge his system with white crane. created the SLT set and system.
Then, from there it past down.
ok, you can argue, nah that is not Fong Chat-niong, but then you can't argue with me about the CO-INCIDENT of the three point five plum flower term exist in White Crane. It is a Facts."

yuanfen,
There doesn't appear to be a lot of work or evidence involved in welding "special terms" opinion and co-incident. After your earlier post indicating Hendrik has more work to do your last post doesn't seem too compelling an argument.>>Tony

---------------------------------------------------------

Hi Tony,

Unlike that white crane expert Hendrik, you have an ability to sense and know higher truth. Buddhism is always keen to point out those things that prevent people from being hahaha....and draw incorrect conclusions about things. so that they can develop a critical awareness of them.

RH

method man

08-27-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Hi Tony,

Unlike that white crane expert Hendrik, you have an ability to sense and know higher truth. Buddhism is always keen to point out those things that prevent people from being hahaha....and draw incorrect conclusions about things. so that they can develop a critical awareness of them.

RH

a sawbuck say roll_hand is hfy student :P

Rolling_Hand

08-27-2003, 07:15 PM

Hi Method man,

You have nothing to do but wait until the expected moment arrives. It feels like a headache at first, but it gradually balances out. You see nothing but Kamma. Actually, you have a lot going for you. You need to reorganize your Tan Sau so you make the most of SNT.

Om mani peme hum...

anerlich

08-27-2003, 08:36 PM

" I also find it funny when Hendrik talks about Buddhism becuase all the Buddhist i know are very humble and they very seldom argue with people. Hendrik is a feisty little fella. When i read his posts, he doesn't like people telling him that he's wrong. Doesn't seem like he gots any Buddhist nature in him. Maybe he does, who knows. Hendrik could be a cool person in person. Maybe he's like this when he's in forums, like road rage but he has forum rage or something "

dang, you coulda been talking about "Zopa" on the WCML ... like many "religious scholars", those who claim the most often demonstrate the least ...

As far as Hendrik goes, I don't think he loses his temper much at all.

I do find it annoying that he presents thinking out loud and unsubstantiated assertions as deep insights, or tries to come across as an expert in areas where he is obviously not, but I'd say it's generally people like you and me that get irate, not him.

method man

08-28-2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Hi Method man,

You have nothing to do but wait until the expected moment arrives. It feels like a headache at first, but it gradually balances out. You see nothing but Kamma. Actually, you have a lot going for you. You need to reorganize your Tan Sau so you make the most of SNT.

Om mani peme hum...

only thng wating is the peerless tan sao to grab sawbuck i win

(crickit chirpin)

try nam yo ho reng gei qiu

could be work better for u :P

saifa5k

08-28-2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie

Agreed. If you do and present the work, you've done and presented the work. Then the real work begins.

Hello Rene,
Just a couple of thoughts. First the phrase "paradigm shift" is just a fancy way of saying a "new way of looking at things". As such it may well be helpful in discovering or uncovering new attributes concerning objective reality. However fancy sounding phrases do not in themselves guarantee the truth.

I agree with your quote above completely. If someone wants to postulate or hypothesize a new theory thats great, but as the less fancy would say "the proof is in the pudding".

Dave c

barryc108

08-28-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
dang, you coulda been talking about "Zopa" on the WCML ... like many "religious scholars", those who claim the most often demonstrate the least ...
[/B]

Nice way to slip in a personal attack.....

"those who claim the most often demonstrate the least ..."

Same could be said about your sigung Andrew LOL.

anerlich

08-28-2003, 03:50 PM

Nice way to slip in a personal attack.....

Shucks. The target was pretty good at that himself. And it seems to follow the general sentiment on this thread.

Same could be said about your sigung Andrew LOL.

It could, has been, and will continue to be regularly, no doubt.

reneritchie

08-28-2003, 08:10 PM

Dave C.,

There was an old joke that somewhere in the West, a man today is claiming invention of a 'spherical rotation device', while most others are blissfully rolling around on their wheels.

There's two schools of thought on the matter. One believes to be taken seriously you must use serious sounding words. The other believes that in order to be taken seriously, you must be serious. Neither is entirely wrong.

Andrew,

There is a righteous fire in Buddhism about anger, greed, and stupidity. However, one can wonder about the righteous targeting engine at times.

anerlich

08-28-2003, 10:07 PM

There is a righteous fire in Buddhism about anger, greed, and stupidity. However, one can wonder about the righteous targeting engine at times.

I guess you are right. And then again, often in Buddhism the most appropriate target is oneself rather than those around one. I'm not a Buddhist, FWIW, though I admire much of it and am reasonably well read on the subject.

Are the "Spherical rotation device" and "righteous targeting engine" related?

And, call me a nitpicker, but isn't "cylindrical rotation device" a more apt description? :)

Phenix

08-29-2003, 08:35 AM

Buddhism, Daoism, and TCM are 3 "models" to describe nature in the past china. Similar with Physic, Pyscology, biology today.

So, it is not that complicated if one lives in the past, because those are basic education for the literate. Certainly, today is a different story. However, without understand them, how is one going to understand SLT which was develop at that time?

IT is very interesting phenomenon that when Buddhist teaching where shown here that some people don't feel it is necessary. (which is fine and healty since no one has to agree with everything for discussion) And, Some will go as far as high jacking the Buddhism teaching, in the sametime sending message " we know it better, we inherit the Chan.". But then when ask about where does those "inheritant" from ? from who and what is it? no one can answer and back to personal attack...... IMHO that is fine also since as an ocean all can be accepted. Ocean has all the capacity. By the way, this capacity of ocean acceptance analogy, if not wrong, it was a part of AVATAMSAKA OCEAN SEAL SAMADHI.
See, in AVATAMSAKA, nothing is bad, all accepted and will be transform to higher level.

As for Ng Mui, we, today, has a big view of what might be happen between 1863 to 1820.
Based on the characteristics of Northern and Southern Chinese MA, which has a different characteristics, SLT has another ingriedient which is not seen in Shao LIn or White Crane oir other southern art (even today's Hung Gar) between 1863 to 1820; and that is the sensitivity or Chi (as Chi Sau) ingredient.
And where is it likely to come from? ---Emei's 12 post. Emei has a "sticking" technology since the sensing is based on the flow of Qi in medirian.....

So, the White crane people including WCK ancestors realized one can improve the art with more soft and more efficient way of generate power or jing. and Somehow, IMHO, Miu Shuun saw the opportunity to improve the Ng Mui, White Crane design better; So, he add in or modified the "engine" and he further added "sensitivity" .

For this, the "engine" of the system has been selected such that both "power" and "sensitivity" are cultivate simultaneously, Thus, the saga of SLT begun.

Just to recap my opinion, in today's words, Thus, in SLT, the training of strategical Potential (such as center line theory, gate theory,.....) , Inch Jing and whole body jing generation, and Sensitivity, were packed into one.

And So how about going back futher to Ming dynasty to see how things related. Certainly, some of White Crane technics has to inherit from some thing from Ming Dynasty. Sure, we can do that, we can get back to Mid of 1500,.... and we do have the factual linking evidents now to go that far.

It is an evolution parallel with the evolution of China. As for buddhism, some might no think it is necessary. But, for some, if the capsule of Buddha nature can be open, that brought a different view of how to handling mind. As for the TCM, some might not think it is necessary. But, the question is what do one does after Breathing sink to Dantien. how to release the power?
However, Buddhism needs transmissioin to verify what one "sees" is the "real thing" not just copycat wisdom talk. And TCM part, it boil down to as simple as either one knows what to do when the breathing sink to Dantien to release the power or not. ... those are traditional ancient chinese way.

So, Rene, :D Ya Ya "I am bad. I am bad...." this is similar to a time release Vitamine C. The major Hakka art influence can be eliminate. The major Hung Gar influence can be eliminate... while we try to build up the SLT pice by pice....IMHO
there is a third component which has slight influence on White Crane and then SLT .

ARe you ready to get back to Ming?

Paul, There is no Fighting, IMHO :D. There is about beating the heck out of someone. and some did it with brute force and sloppily. Some did it gentlely with great efficientcy. Similar to the Butcher story in Zhuang Tze, cut the ox out without damaging the butcher knive. Without philosophy and running around with Punch Punch and Chop Chop is not going to get to the cutting the ox without damaging the butcher knive. Well, you can said but that is just a philosophy. Sure, because it is about art. otherwise, just by a BAZUKA. :D

"You can have all the skill , but you can't fly because you are not a vampire. --Vampire Lestart.

PaulH

08-29-2003, 10:11 AM

"Paul, There is no Fighting, IMHO . There is about beating the heck out of someone. and some did it with brute force and sloppily. Some did it gentlely with great efficientcy. Similar to the Butcher story in Zhuang Tze, cut the ox out without damaging the butcher knive. Without philosophy and running around with Punch Punch and Chop Chop is not going to get to the cutting the ox without damaging the butcher knive. Well, you can said but that is just a philosophy. Sure, because it is about art. otherwise, just by a BAZUKA. "

Hey Hendrik,

What sort of philosophies are you referring to? I thought my WC has reached the mountain top. You mean for all these years my respectable sifus and countless WC forum council members have lied to me shamelessly! Oh no! What could they be? Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

08-29-2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
"

Hey Hendrik,

What sort of philosophies are you referring to? I thought my WC has reached the mountain top. You mean for all these years my respectable sifus and countless WC forum council members have lied to me shamelessly! Oh no! What could they be? Ha! Ha!

Regards,

What sort of WCK are you referring to? The type buying a Bazuka or the type buying a laser blade?

PaulH

08-29-2003, 12:43 PM

Either gun will do you in, but what is the philosophy of the laser blade? what are its uncopyable trademark signatures?

P.S. One of the great things of systematic knowledge is there are clear and precise prerequisite requirements for every skills that you need to master. The ABC, words, sentences, and style and syntax of expressions, etc. Why is it that all the details on the paper with regard to the laser blade has been vague and little understood so far?

Regards,

Phenix

08-29-2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by PaulH

Why is it that all the details on the paper with regard to the laser blade has been vague and little understood so far?

Regards,

It is not everyone's rice to learn about Inversion state and then producing Phonon in the semiconductor physics of Photo Laser diode.

PaulH

08-29-2003, 06:05 PM

The moment that all this hi-tech stuffs become meaningful and readily applicable to ordinary people's life. It may well be everyone's daily meat and potatoes. It is said that few people truly have WC skills. Certainly the WC teaching skill is one of the major problems. Good teachers/coaches are increasingly more rare as the WC curtain draws to the end of its stage.

Regards,

Phenix

08-29-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
The moment that all this hi-tech stuffs become meaningful and readily applicable to ordinary people's life. It may well be everyone's daily meat and potatoes. It is said that few people truly have WC skills. Certainly the WC teaching skill is one of the major problems. Good teachers/coaches are increasingly more rare as the WC curtain draws to the end of its stage.

Regards,

Not everyone knows how laser diode works or care to know about how laser diode work. But then, as soon as one have CDrom burnner or CD player, one has used it.

When the time comes. Everything will show.
When the time comes. Everything will fade away.
It is part of karma.

PaulH

08-29-2003, 06:58 PM

I have faith that WC will not fade. Its beauty grows on you in the eternity of time.

Regards,

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed,
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature's changing course untrimmed:
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
Nor shall death brag thou wand'rest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st,
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

- William Shakespeare

Phenix

08-29-2003, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I have faith that WC will not fade. Its beauty grows on you in the eternity of time.

Regards,

To be real honest, WCK is at its most strongest and most weakest cross road.

Strongest because we now have lots of data from the past and we have experience from different families.
Weakest if we do not learn to respect each others/ families and play as a team, but claim the oldest and most origin. creating ego driven problems.

We need the people who has the classical knowledge to tell us where we from. We need the people who fought in the street to teach us what is the situation now in the street and how to deal with it... we need the people who fought in ring ..... everyone can learn from everyone and everyone can grow thier own WCK flower garden.

May be later there are WCK and TaiJi Mix. There are WCK and boxing mix. WCK and BJJ mix. that is fine. who's standard to call it right or wrong? It is every generation's responsibilities to grow beyond the past generation. Embrace the past, know why things evol this way, and grow beyond the past into future. Spring never die because Spring doesn't live in the past but this instant.

believe it or not Buddhism is againt Autoriterian(sp?). the 6th partiach do away the transmission of rope and bow to make "mind seal" available to everyone.

And Chinese art often die because of the autoriterian, secretive, and Taboo management method which keep the knowledge only to a certain people which trap and lock out the grow of the art.

So, to grow, one has to grow beyond the mentality of blocking the growth. The basic education system has to be in place.

just my two cents.

PaulH

08-29-2003, 07:44 PM

What would be the basic education system in your true sense?

Regards,

Phenix

08-29-2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
What would be the basic education system in your true sense?

Regards,

be able to enter into the silence where not attach to self--- thus one centered naturally.

Be able to contribute to public without attach to self. ---thus one applied the technics as it needs without attach to it.

Be able to express openly without put oneself down. --- thus one be able to syncronize with the teaching of ancestors.

Be able to listern to others full hearted instead of listerning to oneself. --- Thus, one can continously improve oneself and learning everything needed.

anerlich

08-30-2003, 12:16 AM

I have faith that WC will not fade. Its beauty grows on you in the eternity of time.

Without evolution, What I regard as "Wing Chun" will surely fade.

I guess it depends how each of us define "Wing Chun". If it's something that sprung fully formed from the Great Void centuries ago and must remain immutable, then it ain't going to last. It'll follw the dodo into oblivion and arguably that's where it belongs.

If it can accept the changes demanded by a changing world (and its practitioners can, more importantly) then perhaps.

Amazing how staunch modernists embrace postmdernism when pressure is brought to bear. IMO a good outcome.

saifa5k

08-30-2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by method man

only thng wating is the peerless tan sao to grab sawbuck i win

(crickit chirpin)

try nam yo ho reng gei qiu

could be work better for u :P

Contact me at davec50@yahoo.com

namu myo ho renge kyo

Phenix

08-30-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by saifa5k

Contact me at davec50@yahoo.com

namu myo ho renge kyo

So Now you take refuge in Saddapundarika sutra and want to become a buddha? Ng Mui preached you last night?:D

(saddapundarika sutra is a sutra in buddhism with main message that every living being will become enlightent and attain the buddhahood.)

yuanfen

08-30-2003, 01:12 PM

pratekya buddha?

PaulH

08-30-2003, 02:28 PM

If it can accept the changes demanded by a changing world (and its practitioners can, more importantly) then perhaps.

Anerlich,

What are the changes that WC should take into account today? At its core we have already a core philosophy of change in "Receive what comes, escort what goes, when free thrust forward". Its many hands or legs belong to a special MA field of changeology also. If one really got WC, the person will fight naturally - somethings like the unorthodox Mushashi. The techniques that you once learned become no techniques due to its shapeless and changeable water quality. I find the study of WC become more and more a study of the philosophy of the truth of the constant change in our world that "no speeches cannot fully express and books can fully record."

Regards,

teazer

08-30-2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

Without evolution, What I regard as "Wing Chun" will surely fade.

I guess it depends how each of us define "Wing Chun". If it's something that sprung fully formed from the Great Void centuries ago and must remain immutable, then it ain't going to last. It'll follw the dodo into oblivion and arguably that's where it belongs.

If it can accept the changes demanded by a changing world (and its practitioners can, more importantly) then perhaps.

Amazing how staunch modernists embrace postmdernism when pressure is brought to bear. IMO a good outcome.

Aren't evolution and development Modern concepts?

Phenix

08-30-2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by PaulH

Anerlich,

What are the changes that WC should take into account today? At its core we have already a core philosophy of change in "Receive what comes, escort what goes, when free thrust forward". Its many hands or legs belong to a special MA field of changeology also. If one really got WC, the person will fight naturally - somethings like the unorthodox Mushashi. The techniques that you once learned become no techniques due to its shapeless and changeable water quality. I find the study of WC become more and more a study of the philosophy of the truth of the constant change in our world that "no speeches cannot fully express and books can fully record."

Regards,

if ng mui exist today, ng mui will use cell phone, note book computer, cd player, gps..... so always grow.

if mushashi alive today he will learn to use laser blade

canglong

08-31-2003, 07:59 AM

originally posted by PaulH
What are the changes that WC should take into account today? At its core we have already a core philosophy of change in "Receive what comes, escort what goes, when free thrust forward". Its many hands or legs belong to a special MA field of changeology also. If one really got WC, the person will fight naturally - somethings like the unorthodox Mushashi. The techniques that you once learned become no techniques due to its shapeless and changeable water quality. I find the study of WC become more and more a study of the philosophy of the truth of the constant change in our world that "no speeches cannot fully express and books can fully record."
Very well said Paul, Wing chun when created only had to account for one head one torso two arms and two legs and I fail to see how that has "evolved" to the point where wing chun now has to account for anything more than at it Genesis.

saifa5k

08-31-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by canglong

Very well said Paul, Wing chun when created only had to account for one head one torso two arms and two legs and I fail to see how that has "evolved" to the point where wing chun now has to account for anything more than at it Genesis.

Hello Tony,

I have to agree. Furthermore wing chun was designed with one objective in mind and that was survival. In my opinion that it why it is still more practical today than all the "sport combat" arts.

Dave c

Phenix

08-31-2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by canglong

Very well said Paul, Wing chun when created only had to account for one head one torso two arms and two legs and I fail to see how that has "evolved" to the point where wing chun now has to account for anything more than at it Genesis.

human has one head one torso..... but with a unlimited mind capacity and free will. Thus, there is computer , electric shaver..... and microwave oven.

canglong

08-31-2003, 08:10 AM

originally posted by phenix
human has one head one torso..... but with a unlimited mind capacity and free will. Thus, there is computer , electric shaver..... and microwave oven.
true enough but how does this effect wing chun hand to hand combat?

Phenix

08-31-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by canglong

true enough but how does this effect wing chun hand to hand combat?

People evol
--------------

we don't eat the same type of food compare with 1800 and we don't live with the same living habit. We sit in aircondition room and travel with busses.

Look at the southern chinese/japanese.. and american born southern chinese/japaness, who in general has bigger size body?
food and nutrition different... size different and evol...

Art evol
---------

Once upon a time, in Ming dynasty inch power was not much known. then in Qing inch power become more known.
then in late Qing uses of Yee is more known....

Is it Hand to Hand or is it all dimentions have to activate? and how many dimentions are there to be explore?

When someone mention about structure, then most looks into structure.

If tomorrow someone show the rainbow body to easily defeat others. will people find a way to create something par or better then it?

It is an open system and creation is unlimited.
----------------------------------------------------------

Since the capasity of mind and cosmos is a continous flow open system, grow or die out.

Thus, claim of original or True has no meaning ---- past has already past.
one cannot step on the same flowing water twice.
One cannot live in same thought stream twice.

The power of Chan is to be able to accept, embrace, flow continouesly, and keep growing.

NOT about special technics and attach to special time, space, thought patten, and technics.

even the perception of time changes in every era. by looking at the watch's evolution one sees that, the analog watch, the regulator, the jump hour, then the digital..... time has a different meaning in different era. from no date to showing date in the watch. from no second hand to showing split second in today's digital watch...

Watch is an instrument of telling time. so how much a simple concept of telling time grow and evol? the main goal is still the same--- telling time, even we go digital these days.... and who knows what to come?

Alive is about grow, not about blindly quoting the past, not about ignoring the past, and not about trying to over write the past evolution.

canglong

08-31-2003, 10:31 AM

originally posted by phenix
It is an open system and creation is unlimited.
Most efficient and most effective are naturally limited by human physiology.

originally posted by phenix
When someone mention about structure, then most looks into structure. Most is not all. If you already understand structure you will not be mislead. Know yourself first and pay less attention to someone else mentioning this thing and that thing and you will be better for it.

Phenix

08-31-2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by canglong

If you already understand structure you will not be mislead. Know yourself first and pay less attention to someone else mentioning this thing and that thing and you will be better for it.

Certainly, if one knows what one is doing, one doesn't attach to other's view point but can embrace them.

However, the question remain, does one really knows what one think one knows.

Some chinese think they know thier body can against bullet in 1900's. And they sure pay less attention to the westerner's gun and has to pay a very big price for the lesson.

Train

08-31-2003, 12:24 PM

The power of Chan is to be able to accept, embrace, flow continouesly, and keep growing. Hendrik

Sounds like Time, Space and ERG to me :)

However, the question remain, does one really knows what one think one knows. Hendrik

Only if one believes in it. If know one believed what they think, nothing would have been accomplished.

Omani pei me hom!!! :)

canglong

08-31-2003, 12:55 PM

originally posted by phenix
Certainly, if one knows what one is doing, one doesn't attach to other's view point but can embrace them.
Try not to attach embrace or ascribe to anything but that which is real. Reality is not hiding from us you only need seek and you will find.

hello Train :) welcome to the conversation.

Phenix

08-31-2003, 01:23 PM

Sounds like Time, Space and ERG to me :) ---T

How do you sound before your mom and dad were born? --HS

Only if one believes in it. If know one believed what they think, nothing would have been accomplished. ---T

Sure, one can believe "Ng Mui" doesn't exist and white crane has no releation with WCK. even the factual evidents sit infront of one. --HS

Phenix

08-31-2003, 01:28 PM

Reality is not hiding from us you only need seek and you will find. ---C

Sure agree.

"Ng Mui" exist in White crane of fujian disregards of if Chi Sim or the evelasting hall of Southern Shao Lin exist or not.

canglong

08-31-2003, 02:19 PM

originally posted by phenix
"Ng Mui" exist in White crane of fujian disregards of if Chi Sim or the evelasting hall of Southern Shao Lin exist or not.
Everyone under heaven says that my Tao is great and beyond compare.--LAO TSU If your horse has only two legs why try to add two more in the name of chi sim and the weng chun tong.

Phenix

08-31-2003, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by canglong
If your horse has only two legs why try to add two more in the name of chi sim and the weng chun tong.

Horse has 4 legs and human has only two. Different animals. WCK is about human not about horse.

Everyone under heaven says that my Tao is great and beyond compare.--LAO TSU

if it is so great how come Song dynasty get wipe out by Gengiskhan and Ming get wipe out by Manchurian?

canglong

08-31-2003, 02:45 PM

originally posted by phenix
"Ng Mui" exist in White crane of fujian disregards of if Chi Sim or the evelasting hall of Southern Shao Lin exist or not.

The tittle of this thread reads Ng Mui found! Thus far you have yet to prove your case.
Originally posted by Phenix
"Ng Mui is a special term in White Crane.
at my search, found out that,
There is a special term for Sanchin stance in Fujian white Crane.
It is just a simple combination of Miu Shun whoever he is. after falling in love with White Crane's summon the sun, center and else concept. then, naturally merge his system with white crane. created the SLT set and system.
Then, from there it past down.
ok, you can argue, nah that is not Fong Chat-niong, but then you can't argue with me about the CO-INCIDENT of the three point five plum flower term exist in White Crane. It is a Facts."

originally posted by phenix
Horse has 4 legs and human has only two. Horse has 4 legs humans have 2 and phenix argument has 0.

canglong

08-31-2003, 02:53 PM

originally posted by phenix
if it is so great how come Song dynasty get wipe out by Gengiskhan and Ming get wipe out by Manchurian? this is part of the natural cycle of ying & Yang first comes the sun then comes the rain, fear not the sun will shine again.

Train

08-31-2003, 02:55 PM

How do you sound before your mom and dad were born? --HS

ERR..... Huh?? :) I sound like time, space, and ENG.
how did you sound like great one?

Sure, one can believe "Ng Mui" doesn't exist and white crane has no releation with WCK. even the factual evidents sit infront of one. --HS

Factual? hmmm.... I don't think those are facts, but is ones opinions. What about hung gar & chu ga mantis? some says it has relations to WC too, but then again, "oppinions" not facts.

Tony,

Sorry for side bustin :) but sounds like no one is agreeing with one another. It going to go on and on and on...........

Train

08-31-2003, 02:58 PM

Well said Tony

Phenix

08-31-2003, 03:13 PM

Sure, one can believe "Ng Mui" doesn't exist and white crane has no releation with WCK. even the factual evidents sit infront of one. --HS

Factual? hmmm.... I don't think those are facts, but is ones opinions. What about hung gar & chu ga mantis? some says it has relations to WC too, but then again, "oppinions" not facts. ---T

The chinese, with the special daoist fomular drug has flied to moon long time ago.
Thus, this months all the chinese celebrate the moon festival to remember the flying to the moon. That is a fact!

and,
the American has never lander on the Moon, even they come back with moon rock. that is just an opinion. Sure sure.

Phenix

08-31-2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by canglong
this is part of the natural cycle of ying & Yang first comes the sun then comes the rain, fear not the sun will shine again.

Great idea.

canglong

08-31-2003, 03:21 PM

sounds like no one is agreeing with one another. It going to go on and on and on...........

LOL, yeah train, phenix and I are just having a little conversation on how to agree to disagree ;)

canglong

08-31-2003, 04:02 PM

Great idea.--Phenix
tao is not an idea it is "the way"

Phenix

08-31-2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by canglong

tao is not an idea it is "the way"

Well, in my dream last night,

I told those guys to not Fan Qing Fu Ming ( over turn the Qing and return to Ming) and create all kind of shao Lin stories since it is not accord to the YING YING YANG YANG... or DAO since I have learn so much in this forum.

They all told me tao is an idea for talk wise. no body walk the way. and behind Fan qing Fu Ming is just money and fame, who really wants the Ming emperor to rule again?

this morning when I wake up. I realized Qing is gone now, and why don't they call Republic of China as MING?
I guess those old guys has a point. they just want to use the Fan Qing Fu Ming to make themself looks great and make some money. Dao? it is just a wise pep talk for the followers. Well , it is just a dream opinion. but it is a fact though, China is not called Ming today even after Qing gone for good for 100 years! ok I was wrong, 93 years.

canglong

08-31-2003, 05:15 PM

originally posted by phenix
Well, in my dream last night
Dreams are nice but the reality of the dream is you have to wake up.
originally posted by phenix
Well , it is just a dream opinion. but it is a fact though, China is not called Ming today even after Qing gone for good for 100 years!

"To talk little is natural.
High winds do not last all morning.
Heavy rain does not last all day.
Why is this? Heaven and earth!
If heaven and earth cannot make things eternal,
How is it possible for man?"

As men we run into trouble when we go against the way. What is real just is. Go with the flow and not your dreams.

Train

08-31-2003, 05:18 PM

I told those guys to not Fan Qing Fu Ming ( over turn the Qing and return to Ming) and create all kind of shao Lin stories since it is not accord to the YING YING YANG YANG... or DAO since I have learn so much in this forum. HS

hehehe!!!!!! Wow!! So what kinda Comment is this?? Sheesh!! no wonder your so loved by the "Fan Qing Fu Ming" people. Why don't you just say what's on your mind Hendrik!!! instead of keep it bottled up all inside which led to dreaming about it!

I guess those old guys has a point. they just want to use the Fan Qing Fu Ming to make themself looks great and make some money. HS

Hey Tony!! What do you think about this comment!! Wow!! It looks like.....hmmmm.... the same old sh1t he always brings up. he's always beating around the bush, indirectly putting down other lineages but will not step up and say what's really on his mind. In ghetto terms, isn't he being a little Bizzich?? What do you think Tony?? :)

Omi Toh Foh

canglong

08-31-2003, 05:36 PM

Train,
yes Hendrik likes to portray himself as a historian or authoritarian by starting threads such as this one but when he states things like this....""Ng Mui" exist in White crane of fujian disregards of if Chi Sim or the evelasting hall of Southern Shao Lin exist or not." or "I guess those old guys has a point. they just want to use the Fan Qing Fu Ming to make themself looks great and make some money" We do get a look at the real Hendrik.

Phenix

08-31-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by canglong
Train,
yes Hendrik likes to portray himself as a historian or authoritarian by starting threads such as this one but when he states things like this....""Ng Mui" exist in White crane of fujian disregards of if Chi Sim or the evelasting hall of Southern Shao Lin exist or not." or "I guess those old guys has a point. they just want to use the Fan Qing Fu Ming to make themself looks great and make some money" We do get a look at the real Hendrik.

hahahhaha, great.

you all must be confusing about dream and reality and have a habit of qouting anything you likes not the full.
You like to attack Hendrik no matter what. hahaha

By the way, have you people read Ching Yong's Novel? Ching Yong or Kam Yong in cantonese is one of the greatest Chinese author and qing historian in this century. As for Fan qing Fu Ming's ... read that novel and history then make a conclusion for yourself.

Train

08-31-2003, 06:07 PM

Hendrik,

You talk like you are in a dream!! :) hehehe maybe you are still dreaming............

I'm outy

Phenix

08-31-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Train
Hendrik,

You talk like you are in a dream!! :) hehehe maybe you are still dreaming............

I'm outy

I told you I am in a dream last night. I must be get influence by Kam Yong's novel the deer summit and the great Daoist Rooollllling Haaaaaand! and you people takes my dream as real.

So the one who is dreaming knows he is dreaming. the one who is awake take the one who is dreaming as real. and extremly serious... .. Boy very confusing. hahahahaha :D

Hendrik is a cosmos's dream. don't you know that?
Zen right?

anerlich

08-31-2003, 06:57 PM

"What are the changes that WC should take into account today?"

If one "really got WC", then one would know ;)

"At its core we have already a core philosophy of change in "Receive what comes, escort what goes, when free thrust forward"."

I thought it was "Fist comes from the heart", but whatever floats your boat.

"Its many hands or legs belong to a special MA field of changeology also. "

Changeology [sic], which is a neologism for evolution or development (I think?), which was what I suggested.

If one really got WC, the person will fight naturally - somethings like the unorthodox Mushashi. The techniques that you once learned become no techniques due to its shapeless and changeable water quality."

Very metaphysical.

" I find the study of WC become more and more a study of the philosophy of the truth of the constant change in our world that "no speeches cannot fully express and books can fully record."

Well, what a lucky boy you are! :D

"Wing chun when created only had to account for one head one torso two arms and two legs and I fail to see how that has "evolved" to the point where wing chun now has to account for anything more than at it Genesis."

You too can have an opinion, especially of one is a postmodernist.

Yes, evolution and development are Modern concepts, but Postmodernism embraces Modernism along with the rest. I mentioned postmodernism so I could use big profound-sounding words with any meaning incidental to sound knowledgeable, and so follow the apparent intent of most other posts on this thread.

canglong

08-31-2003, 09:13 PM

originally posted by Anerlich
If one "really got WC", then one would know It is quite possible the variance of what different people consider wing chun would require that you explain this with a little more detail.

originally posted by Anerlich
You too can have an opinion, especially of one is a postmodernist. Why thank you, opinion is a good starting block but ultimately what we seek is truth. I haven't heard anyone recently argueing or giving their opinion as to the fact that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. I believe this to be so because truth reigns supreme over opinion. I would be glad to hear your opinion on what part or parts of my earlier statement you find to be untrue, postmodernism aside.

PaulH

08-31-2003, 11:27 PM

Hey Anerlich,

"Curiouser and curiouser!"

"Your answer trickled through my head, like water through a sieve."

"Tut, tut, child," said the Duchess. "Everything's got a moral if only you can find it.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -neither more nor less."

"You are old, Father William," the young man said, "And your hair has become very white; And yet you incessantly stand on your head -- Do you think at your age, it is right?"

Okay, I'm off in wonderland. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

anerlich

08-31-2003, 11:40 PM

It is quite possible the variance of what different people consider wing chun would require that you explain this with a little more detail.

I agree it's possible, in fact I qualified my original assertion similarly, but what you are responding to wasn't mine, it was PaulH's. He can go first. When he gets back...

Okay, I'm off in wonderland. Ha! Ha!

Enjoy.

I haven't heard anyone recently argueing or giving their opinion as to the fact that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.

It's unlikely you would as that is not a fact, but an error (it, er, rises in the east, at least where I live).

Ive not heard many arguing about where the sun rises or sets (unless, from what you wrote above you want to start now), but I've heard plenty arguing or giving their opinion about whether Wing Chun needs to move with the times, and I can't see this stopping any time soon. The answer to which is a matter of opinion, not of fact. Since we have so many variations and subsystems, it would appear many of our predecessors thought it needed embellishments and adjustments down the years. Otherwise the 6.5 pt pole wouldn't have been added, for one thing.

canglong

09-01-2003, 04:41 AM

I've heard plenty arguing or giving their opinion about whether Wing Chun needs to move with the times, and I can't see this stopping any time soon. Since we have so many variations and subsystems, it would appear many of our predecessors thought it needed embellishments and adjustments down the years. Majority has no hold on the truth. Running with the herd does not preclude you from being lead astray. Since you chose not to answer the original question I take it there isn't one forth coming. Enjoy.

John Weiland

09-01-2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
Ive not heard many arguing about where the sun rises or sets (unless, from what you wrote above you want to start now), but I've heard plenty arguing or giving their opinion about whether Wing Chun needs to move with the times, and I can't see this stopping any time soon. The answer to which is a matter of opinion, not of fact. Since we have so many variations and subsystems, it would appear many of our predecessors thought it needed embellishments and adjustments down the years. Otherwise the 6.5 pt pole wouldn't have been added, for one thing.
Good points. To me any enhancements are like my view of fine art---I can't define it, but I (hope) when the time comes that an advancement comes, I'll recognize it when I see it. :D

Regards,

anerlich

09-01-2003, 05:57 PM

Majority has no hold on the truth.

Nor do rugged individualists.

Running with the herd does not preclude you from being lead astray.

Wandering off on your own doesn't stop you getting lost either.

"Running with the herd" could be nodding along with all the True Believers, or it could be going along with the naysayers who want to deflate its balloons (like some of my BJJ training partners). Critical thinking is indispensable whatever path you take, alone or with your homies.

Since you chose not to answer the original question I take it there isn't one forth coming.

There was an "original" question?

Here's what "originally" got you and PaulH up on your hind legs (my definition):

"I guess it depends how each of us define "Wing Chun". If it's something that sprung fully formed from the Great Void centuries ago and must remain immutable, then it ain't going to last. It'll follow the dodo into oblivion and arguably that's where it belongs.

If it can accept the changes demanded by a changing world (and its practitioners can, more importantly) then perhaps."

I see WC as a science, rather than as a set of stone tablets with edicts that one can't alter without being branded a heretic. So that it can change (e.g. with PaulH's "changeology") as new information or situations come to light, or in consideration of events in the real world.

Otherwise we're doing astrology, fundamentalism, or Rene's Appalacian Folk Pottery.

Can you go and interrogate someone else now? :rolleyes:

tao is not an idea it is "the way"

That's an opinion;)

canglong

09-01-2003, 07:02 PM

I see WC as a science, rather than as a set of stone tablets with edicts that one can't alter without being branded a heretic. So that it can change (e.g. with PaulH's "changeology") as new information or situations come to light, or in consideration of events in the real world.
Could you explain with a little more clarity or provide us with one example of this "new information" or "situation" we should be looking for to improve wck?
Can you go and interrogate someone else now? I only felt obliged to respond when responded too if you are offended I will take that into account when reading your opinion in the future.

Phenix

09-01-2003, 08:08 PM

If one practice SLT with a stance which is not sinking the qi and Tan sau as high as eyes brow and movements around the eyes brow level.

This has a possibilities of Causing or evoke High blood pressure with people who has already has hypertension. especially for the overweight people. due to the qi was raise up to Mei Xin or eyes brows area ,and it doesn't comes down if one doesn't know how to sink it down. to make things worst , continously staring at the hand at that level.... after a continous long time of raising of Qi but not sinking, there is the possiblities of causing trouble --- starts with feeling dizzy..... red eyes.... bad temper....

Not to mention two months ago, in May, the American High blood pressure association.... raising thier bar to droping the Pre hypertention level to 80 instead of 85 and years ago 95. so do we want to make sure what we are training make us better then killing us slowly?

So, do you think this type of design is from ancestors who know TCM very well or modified by someone who has not much idea on the Mai handling of the Set?

Now, if that is from the ancestors who is not very skill in design the set, or If it is from someone who has not much idea on the qi Mai Handling of the set. then do you think, it is the time to evol and getting the heck out of it?

Do anyone want to make thier kid sick based on some one's rigidness casting everything in stone disregards of what?

The elbow position needs to be evol. the knee position needs to be evol. Thus, one needs to understand what happen in the past, the white crane the Ng Mui.. emei ... if you want to include shao Lin or Praying Mantis or Hakka.... put it in with evidents..... anything but give as a clear understanding.... what were they trying to achive and we can improve it. for example, a question to be ask is, do one really needs to cramp the elbow in to get the "power"?

For me, I will not accept some one brought out a stone table from thier home and telling me to obey it because it is from some greatest monks. In fact , I don't even care if that is my sifu, i question it. and, good sifu should be able to accept questions instead of just giving command.

on the other hand, since I can question everything in Chan Buddhism , there is no reason for me to believe I cannot question anything from chinese history and everyone's view of WCK including mine.

As for evolution, Chan buddhism's teaching it is not "purely, cast in stone " Indian , lots of it are evol from Chinese culture. For example, The Indian at Buddha's time doesn't do Koan.

So, evolution and keep growing is a part of nature.

Saying this, people might question me about so what about those kuen kuit. Sure, it is similar to physics book. it is great to learn about physics from physics book instead of "redesign wheels and think other have no idea about wheels" , but one has to live in a real life and if physics help great. if not improve it.

Just my two cents.

yuanfen

09-02-2003, 12:06 AM

FWIW- some passing thoughts from a wing chunner--

1. Change is part of life. But whether change is necessarily progress is not a simple question.

2. "Science" -meanings vary-but both empiricism and reflection
retain their interactions. Accepting or rejecting anything- including wing chun claims can be dogmatic or cultish.

3. Science and religion have always had a dance.Yesterday's astronomy can be distorted into astrology. Even Newton was into alchemy. The big bang theory could satisfy some creationist impulses. True/untrue- still in process.

4.New theories however absorb good older theories- dont always destroy them. Newton still relevant. Asian health theories still have much to say. The good things were/are based on experience and practice. There is mumbo jumbo in the east and west. I have escaped the surgeon's knife and the pill pushers-thus far- knock on wood.

5. For change to be improvement- even in wing chun- one has to to have a deep understanding of the how and why of change.
Otherwise it can be the reverse of evolution.

6. In the period we live in---both western and non western ideas
have things to contribute. Inspiration is not a monpoly of the east or west. Ergo- IMO..both western bio mechanics and TCM and non western conceptions of the body are relevant.

7. On Hendrik's opinion that the elbow position needs to be improved.

IMHO- depends on what he means- which is not completely clear
to me at this point.... except I agree with the importance of proper chi flowin good martial art. My tan sau is not at the forehead level and is non cramping.At my current stage of understandig- tan, bong and fok when understood fully as both dynamics and energy flow are great and necessary things in wing chun. No point in abandoning them if they are physiologically sound, healthwise not destructive and self defense wise effective and practical-as I have found them to be.

8. wing chun forever. There is more to the mountain.
Wing chun can be approached at many levels.
Wing chun forever---neither dogma nor nihilism.

reneritchie

09-02-2003, 07:54 AM

Hey Andrew,

"It'll follow the dodo into oblivion and arguably that's where it belongs."

Not really comments for you, but rather inspired by you.

Evolution is a funny thing. Change can be explosive, or it can be almost invisible. Has the croc really changed much over the centuries? Physically, no, but behaviorally? It will do as man's expansion and it's need for food dictate it will do.

WCK can evolve in how it is systematized (organized for learning, remembering, and teaching) or in how it is applied (how you fight with it). Encounter something you've never encountered before (the first WCK person to meet an agro western boxer or wrestler (or these days bjj and something else next decade, for example), and change will follow.

While some may see WCK as science, the only true constant we have (aside from change ;) is individualism. In the end, only the individual will out. The individual will decide what to change or not, how they learn or not, how they remember or not, how they teach or not, and how they apply or not. Regardless of delusion or hyperbole, when it comes down to one-on-one, the individual will be individual, and then everything has changed. It's inescapable as the sun coming up in the East (unless one is positioned pole-perfect).

"I see WC as a science, rather than as a set of stone tablets with edicts that one can't alter without being branded a heretic. So that it can change (e.g. with PaulH's "changeology") as new information or situations come to light, or in consideration of events in the real world."

WCK developed at some point. It came from changing what was before. Thus it follows not only can things (and thus it) change again, it will, whenever conditions (such as those that caused the changes to develop it) dictate. Arguments of perfection or pradigm shifts complement rather than contradict this, of course, as previous examples of both hint at following examples as well.

"Otherwise we're doing astrology, fundamentalism, or Rene's Appalacian Folk Pottery."

Many are. Many just want something to do, something to cling to and identify with, something to give their lives meaning and themselves some sense of importance. Basketball didn't do it, Justin Timberlake fan club wasn't quite right, military had its limits, painting wasn't the proper outlet, whatever. We all came to WCK, and stayed, because it filled a need we had.

If that need was pure fighting improvement, then we're not bound to WCK, its name or its status quo. We will change as our needs change, as our improvement dictates.

If that need was social, belonging to some group, or emotional, feeling a part of something historical beyond ourselves, or personal, being granted status as a 'master' or grandmaster' and having influence over others, then perhaps WCK has to be unchanging and unchangeable, or we lose our anchor, our support.

And if we ever find something that fills our need, be it fighting, or social, or emotional, or something else, better than WCK, then WCK may be changed (or exchanged) for that something else entirely (even Appalacian Folk Pottery).

PaulH

09-02-2003, 09:09 AM

Excellent and thoughtful post, Rene. WC is very individualized. Whatever nature it has becomed to you, it is still bounded by certain unchanged laws of thermodynamics in this universe. The 1st states the conservation of energy within a closed system. The 2nd states within the same closed system, entropy will increase over time so you end up with less usable energy. WC will die slowly if it lives by itself. It needs outside inputs/influences or innovative inspiration/power to combat its unchanged internal decay if improvement from its genesis is a likely possibility. It's up to you. The ball is in your court.

Regards,

Phenix

09-02-2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Excellent and thoughtful post, Rene. WC is very individualized. Whatever nature it has becomed to you, it is still bounded by certain unchanged laws of thermodynamics in this universe. The 1st states the conservation of energy within a closed system. The 2nd states within the same closed system, entropy will increase over time so you end up with less usable energy. WC will die slowly if it lives by itself. It needs outside inputs/influences or innovative inspiration/power to combat its unchanged internal decay if improvement from its genesis is a likely possibility. It's up to you. The ball is in your court.

Regards,

Apple doesn't grow well in Phillipines. Pine apple taste not as sweet in Hawaii compare to Thailand.....

The reason of the five elements etc is about in general Southern Chinese MA doesn't Win with hand and feet technics but with manuaring of different energies type in different angles...
Thus, Southern art is not Northern art.... but nothing said southern art cannot use high kick....

teazer

09-02-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by anerlich
You too can have an opinion, especially of one is a postmodernist.

Yes, evolution and development are Modern concepts, but Postmodernism embraces Modernism along with the rest. I mentioned postmodernism so I could use big profound-sounding words with any meaning incidental to sound knowledgeable, and so follow the apparent intent of most other posts on this thread.

LOL!
LOL!! No doubt the prediliction for discourse valuation towards the extant social power structure decries a situational critique. Perhaps a self-referential requirement to thread analysis would be instructive. (all quotation marks etc. removed for "brevity"!)

:cool:

PaulH

09-02-2003, 09:30 AM

Hey Hendrik,

How is your vacation so far?

"The reason of the five elements etc is about in general Southern Chinese MA doesn't Win with hand and feet technics but with manuaring of different energies type in different angles... "

What are they (energies) exactly? Are they related to the 5 elements? Can you give me an example?

Regards,

Phenix

09-02-2003, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hey Hendrik,

How is your vacation so far?

What are they (energies) exactly? Are they related to the 5 elements? Can you give me an example?

Regards,

vacation just ended. and money spended. :D

Back to NG Mui. five plum......white crane.
In general, Tan is Fliping energy similar to water flip over the ship, Pak is rushing in energy similar to firem light weight and burning, Biu Jee is piecing straight similar to wood stake into the vampire's heart :D.....
Bong is redirection energy similar to round metal ball with Lube...

center is the reference point. bridge is the water pipe for pumping water in. gate is door, some close some open...
But then, what kind of motor and drill bit ..torque shaft.... makes a different. Thus, Hung Gar is not white crane, Mantis is not WCK...

PaulH

09-02-2003, 09:50 AM

Hendrik,

Now I can steal your secrets! Ha! Ha! I agree with most of the above except the metal part. I think the kick is more metallic than the bong. One quick question. The earth element is the center or reference point?

Thanks,

canglong

09-02-2003, 09:56 AM

WCK can evolve in how it is systematized (organized for learning, remembering, and teaching) or in how it is applied (how you fight with it). Encounter something you've never encountered before (the first WCK person to meet an agro western boxer or wrestler (or these days bjj and something else next decade, for example), and change will follow. WCK developed at some point. It came from changing what was before. Thus it follows not only can things (and thus it) change again, it will, whenever conditions (such as those that caused the changes to develop it) dictate. Arguments of perfection or pradigm shifts complement rather than contradict this, of course, as previous examples of both hint at following examples as well.
Certainly a paradigm shift of this kind has happened before but looking at conditions that created the necessity for change then the probability of this happening again to hand to hand combat has to have decreased if not for the advent of, atleast the profound proliferation of hand guns alone would validate the argument. *The day bullettime moves from the cinema into this world a change will occur that very second and we will all be able to recognize that change. Any change short of bullettime would not represent change at all as you say but merely personal preference.

reneritchie

09-02-2003, 10:03 AM

"The day bullettime moves from the cinema into this world a change will occur that very second and we will all be able to recognize that change."

There was someone advertising that they were teaching European police combat based on Matrix-style bullet-time. I wonder if perception will make that reality? Or perhaps Gun-Kata from Equilibrium. Or maybe the dampner fields from Dune will necessitate something? Sci-fi has a way of becoming the modern, even if its just 'spiderman' gloves or vidcam and rainjacket invisibility. The shifts just keep on shifting!

canglong

09-02-2003, 10:19 AM

Most police carry guns so that is not hand to hand combat nor is perception reality and lastly when shifts begin shifting that would be well within their true nature.

reneritchie

09-02-2003, 10:34 AM

Most police carry guns so that is not hand to hand combat nor is perception reality and lastly when shifts begin shifting that would be well within their true nature.

The perception of true nature is as unreal as the proposition that the presence or absence of ballistic weapons precludes the possibility, or probability, of hand-to-hand combat. Yet while I would not bet on anyone NEO'ing their way through a fight at this time, outside the VR box (another shifty shift just waiting to get shifting), I will ponder what changes the many unforseeable futures hold in store.

Phenix

09-02-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Now I can steal your secrets! Ha! Ha! I agree with most of the above except the metal part. I think the kick is more metallic than the bong. One quick question. The earth element is the center or reference point?

Thanks,

Those are just old white crane catagorization not my secret. you steal or not agree or not that is not even mine. Those are Ng Mui's.

Earth element? hahahha, phenix eyes is hammering down, like stone droping to the earth.

PaulH

09-02-2003, 10:59 AM

Hendrik,

I find it fascinating that there are many different models of the 5 elements. For the most parts, they are similar with regard to water, fire, and wood. The difference lie in the metal and earth. For me earth is related to distance in combat.

Regards,

Phenix

09-02-2003, 11:05 AM

The WAR Ship era ended when Japanese blow the perth harbour. The Carrier era begin.... still want to build big war ship pretended nothing happen? For some, War ship is the best in the universe, for other, it is out of the question of the stupidity of keep building warship while the Japanese can blown it away effeciently.

hand, guns, bazuka, matrix.... anything anytime anyplace any paradigm shift...any era... those are just a specific expression of energy exchange.

One can claim different paradigmshift in a dimention and a particular era, or hand to hand combat, or whatever.... but it is going to be obsolete. One cannot step at the same flowing water twice and your enermy of yesterday is not the same with the enermy tomorrow.

just energy exchange via awareness and intention, simple and clear cut. the rest is up to one's own imagination. The question remain is, does one has the technology and can one accest to the awareness and intention with a super efficient energy transfer system? sorry, physical skill obsolete when StarWars system is in place. time is less important in the era of weight less laser light.....

Can one enter the realm of Yee? The answer is only yes or no. If yes, the grow beyond the physical. if no then it will always limited by kiu sau chi sau in the village of Canton 1870 while the Qing general already using fire arm and Yee---- just aim and shoot. who cares about the invincible kiu sau or tan sau or chi sau?