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bodhitree
08-21-2003, 05:31 AM
Hellow all
I've been practicing Yang taijiquan for a couple years now and wish to learn Chen. I picked up a set of videos with Lao Jia Yi Lu.
It is way different then Yang, and some of the movements are difficult to understand.
Any Advice?
There is only one Chen style sifu that I know of in the Pittsburgh area and he is far away from where I am.
Is it okay to learn it from a video, I do have a background w/a good training lineage
I dunnnknow what do you guys think?

Laughing Cow
08-21-2003, 05:58 AM
Take this with a pinch of salt, as I am doing Small Frame.

Chen, IMO, is very hard to pick up from a Tape, even with my Instructor I got plenty of corrections and had to unlearn a lot.

Most of the tapes, don't cover Silk reeling and other exercises well.

Also there are great variances within the styles between teachers.

Hope this helps.

Brad
08-21-2003, 06:30 AM
Hellow all
I've been practicing Yang taijiquan for a couple years now and wish to learn Chen. I picked up a set of videos with Lao Jia Yi Lu.
It is way different then Yang, and some of the movements are difficult to understand.
Any Advice?
There is only one Chen style sifu that I know of in the Pittsburgh area and he is far away from where I am.
Is it okay to learn it from a video, I do have a background w/a good training lineage
I dunnnknow what do you guys think?

I think you'd be better off just becoming good at whatever taiji you have access too with a qualified teacher. Even if the form's techniques look a lot different, there are a lot of important things all taiji styles have in common... and you'll pick up Chen style a lot quicker when you do find a teacher :) BTW, how far is Harrisburg from Pittsburgh?

wujimon
08-21-2003, 08:09 PM
I agree with what's already been said. It's very hard to pick up chen from a video. I tried before and while I could externally perform the choreography, the internal mechanics and silk reeling is very difficult to learn without proper instruction.

Good luck.
w.

GLW
08-21-2003, 08:17 PM
First, unless you are EXTREMELY gifted (and very few people really are), it is next to impossible to get the correct flavour, emphasis, and movement for Chen style from learning from a video. There are simply too many small details that must be explained.

After that, the big problem with learning Chen style after practicing another style of Taijiquan is what I sometimes refer to as "Chen infection"

By that I mean that you SHOULD do Yang style like Yang style, Sun like Sun, Wu like Wu, Chen like Chen...unless you are making up your own thing.

But a number of people who do Chen and something else take the Chen flavor over to their other style and end up with Yang form looking like Chen flavor.

I have even seen people do 24 and 42 with a Chen flavor. The let Chen style infect their other training and end up with a melange of Taijiquan.

This REALLY becomes an instance of Ma Ma Hu Hu Taijiquan.

So, if you train in both...keep them both clean and find a good teacher for both.

brassmonkey
08-21-2003, 08:49 PM
I've yet to meet anyone who practices Chen and Yang and have skill in both though I've only met a few.They are very different worlds it seems. Why switch to another style? What do you wish to get out of it? Or are you just hoping to get something that you don't have already? Or is it because Chen looks pretty cool? Just wondering

Laughing Cow
08-21-2003, 09:55 PM
bodhitree.

I think how easy you adjust to Chen depends on which Yang style you studied.

Yang Guang Ping is said to be fairly close, but there is a practicioner/teacher of this style on this board so he might be able to shed some light on this.

Personally, I would say that you better make up your mind which one you want to do for the long run and go for it.

But I feel like GLW that a Chen flavour will creep into your Yang style.
It did for me. ;)

Either way with Chen I would definately recommend to study under a recognised Teacher.

Cheers

RAF
08-22-2003, 05:14 AM
This might be a good place to slip in this clip and talk about flavor between Yang and Chen.

Taiwan Chen Style Taijiquan - Du Yu Ze's video clips (very rare!)
Posted by Jarek Szymanski on July 10, 2003, 1:35 am
218.79.102.19


Du Yu Ze (Tu Yu-tse) was a student of Chen Yanxi (Chen Fake's father, Large Frame of Chen style,) and Chen Minbiao (Small Frame and Hulei Frame. In the clip, he is about 79 so please cut him a break. He died at 94.

http://www.kongfu.org/film/fist/TU_taichi.wmv
(2.91MB)

We teach both Yang and Chen at our school. The above clip shows a different emphasis of circles and chan si jing of Chen's taiji than is typically seen on today's circuit (my own versions are even more direct with a tighter-flavored chan si jing). When we teach Chen's, we teach an abstraction based on Liu Yun Qiao's experience with Chen Fake at a military academy in 1928 and Liu's experience with his learning of Yang's taiji. We also know little about Liu's close relationship with a Zhao Bao Master before he left for Taiwan.

Our first abstraction of Chen's has absolutely no expression of fajing except for the double kick. The Yang's we teach came from a triangle of Li Jing lin, Song Wei Yi (Wu Dang Sword and he taught Fu Zhen Song, "Lightning Palms and Rocket Fists) and a commander serving under Li Jing Lin, Zhang Xiang Wu (Liu's senior Kung Fu brother who forced Liu, who was in his early 20s, to read all the classics and treatises on Taiji).

The Yang material was taught to Liu during the 1920s or early 30s in Hebei/Shandong. I believe that Li Jing Lin learned most of his Yang's taiji from Yang Jian Hou and there is some speculation that Song Wei Yi learned from Yang Ban Hou initially.

Here is a comparison clip:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/videos.htm

Click on Tape 1 under Yang style for a view of the tape. Interestingly, the opening move you see is translated as left, right separate taiji into yin yang (you form or hold the taiji ball on the left and right sides before executing part the wild horse's mane).

Further down you can click on the first level of Chen's.

Aside from discussion, criticisms etc. etc. you may have, one can see how we interpret and treat the flavor of our Yang and Chen's taiji.

Here are a couple of other clips thrown in to give you a taste of other Chen flavors (lots of circles, more along the Feng Zhiqiang philosphy although our versions are much more simplified with a tighter chan si jing. Our teacher also learned a version of Chen's taijiquan from a retired military Jeep driver named Wang Meng Bi who taught in Sun Yet San Park in Taiwan during the 70s. Wang Meng Bi learned from Chen Fake before the 1930s and referred to his version as xiao jia.)

http://www.kongfu.org/wmv/TAICHI_1ST_FIST-2.WMV
(9.63MB)

Chen Style Taijquan 1st Routine performed by Du Yuzhi's students:
http://www.kongfu.org/wmv/TAICHI_1ST_FIST-1.WMV
(4.61MB)

Please don't interpret this as discussion about "my style is better than your style" thing. Older and original does not necessarily translate into better. There are some versions and teachings of Yang Cheng Fu which are excellent in both training and fighting, contrary to what most think of Yang Cheng Fu's changes.

Also like to point out that Liu and Du where teaching this material as early as the 70s, long before Chen's took hold in the US. Their forms and abstractions weren't about laying claim to the Chen or Yang throne but an attempt at preserving an art they felt would never be transmitted to the West.

These clips are only illustrative of the variation in Yang and Chen flavors and convince me (especially when you see the entire clip of Du Yu Ze that Yang Lu Chan indeed modified his interpretation of what he learned in the Chen Village to arrive at his system).

bodhitree
08-22-2003, 07:17 AM
Thanks guys.
Harrisburgh is pretty far from Pittsburgh.
I want to learn Chen for the silk reeling and Fajing. It also looks like a good medium between Shaolin and Yang taijiquan, which is what I've been practicing as seperate areas. I thought Chen would be a nice place in the middle.
The Yang I practice has some Chenism in it, my lineage is from Zhang Lou Peng (who knew all 5 family styles). Well I dont know... keep it coming.

RAF
08-22-2003, 08:28 AM
Nick Gracenin is not that far from Pittsburgh and he always has seminars and a number of people coming in from the outside. He also is a pretty knowledgeable guy on all kinds of taiji. Jose Johnson of Harrisburg PA was once his student and still does many things with Nick.

Nick is also a real gentleman and worth checking out.

http://www.digidao.com/Chm.htm

MaFuYee
08-22-2003, 08:41 PM
bodhi,

when i watch a chen style form, i think it's pretty easy to see what they are doing, (applications wise) if you understand yang style. - and if everything they're doing is already in the style you've practiced for a couple of years already, why waste time learning new forms that cover identical material?

'silk reeling' isn't exclusive to chen style.
if you're not utilising silk reeling energy in your practice, then u might as well be doing mcdojo karate.

also, how can you use tai chi for martial applications without 'fajing'?? - just because it isn't expressed in the yang style form doesn't mean it isn't an integral part of the yang style.


- i am partial to yang style, because i think it allows more freedom of expression. i think the chen style forms can lead one to adopt a more rigid, and thus limited interpretation. (- statements of personal opinion.)

imo, the only reason to switch from one style to the other would be if one teacher was significantly better than the other, in understanding and teaching ability.

bodhitree
08-25-2003, 05:34 AM
"'silk reeling' isn't exclusive to chen style.
if you're not utilising silk reeling energy in your practice, then u might as well be doing mcdojo karate.

also, how can you use tai chi for martial applications without 'fajing'?? - just because it isn't expressed in the yang style form doesn't mean it isn't an integral part of the yangstyle" MaFuYee

I agree for the most part, but in solo practice I would like to practice forms that do express Fajing. Like I said i've been practicing Yang in morning and evening and Shaolin in the afternoon, I'm looking for a practice somewhere in the middle. I don't want to completely give up either but I think Chen would be a good addition.

MaFuYee
08-25-2003, 08:08 AM
bodhi;

i guess one has to ask one's self, what is my purpose for learning martial arts. - the answer to which will vary from person to person.

i can't say whether it is a good thing or not, to practice yang style, and shaolin together... but wanting to add chen to your routine as well, is ambitious, to say the least. (i'm not trying to knock you.)

i don't know how you train, but i get the impression that you put a heavy emphasis on the form. - my view is that form training has it's place, but i feel that training of the individual postures is much more important for martial development. - form as blueprint.

- you can do the yang form; it will take approx 20 mins, with zero fajing movements. - in the same amount of time you can do a chen form, and do maybe a dozen fajing movements. - or you can do 100 reps of single whip, 100 reps of brush knee, 100 reps of lift hands, and 100 of hit tiger. - all using fajing. and do 400 fajing movements in the same 20 mins.

* which is more productive, practicing one thing 100 times, or practicing 100 things once?

* sorry for the disjointed and rambling nature of my post. - i just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

bodhitree
08-25-2003, 10:37 AM
I agree with what your saying somewhat
it makes scence.

I just think I wouldnt need to have external/internal or hard/soft time. Just trying to bring more unity into practice sessions.
Thanks for your imput I do appreciate it. I guess you could say I'm looking for something more 50/50 rather than 2 100s. keep it coming:D

wujimon
08-26-2003, 02:30 PM
First of all, GLW's "chen infection" couldn't be more correct! I've noticed that my yang is starting to get infected! :)

Anyhow, I say that if you want to learn chen, then find a teacher and give it a shot. Personally, I feel the various styles emphasize certain aspects of taiji more than others. Kinda like how taiji/bagua/xingyi emphasize different aspects of internal martial arts yet they all contain the principles.

I started with Yang, but I found a great instructor that teaches traditional chen and I AM LOVING IT! Try them out and see what style is a better "fit for you".

I do like chen b/c of the 50/50 hard/soft in the form. It's great and learning the biomechanics involved in silk reeling just provided a whole new perspective on my training. It added a whole new twist on how I saw rooting, structual integrity, internal energy development, etc. I feel the same can be said for other martial arts too since, like I said above, each have their emphasises (not sure if that's even a word :)) and such.

w.