is it just me....

[Chen]

.....or as an instructor, do you get students who have been training a relativly short period, begin to believe they know more than you?

I have had a particular student who contantly tries to push these boundaries with me by being over questioning(to the point of being arrogant) and tries to show me up in class by always coming back with the "well in this situation I would do...." type question/statement

I have been teaching for many years and welcome students views and questions always. However, some times people push this too far. Has anyone else dealt with this kind of situation?

any views would be welcome

chen

[norther practitioner]

Is it just you or did you post this too many times...lol :D

I'm still a student, but I've had a few in classes that were like that.

[CaptinPickAxe]

or did NP take the words out of my mouth? :D

as for students who think they know more than an instructor, I've never met one. I have to say thats pretty ignorant and arrogant to think that.

what do you teach, Chen?

[SaekSan]

This is an interesting topic.

Could you shed some light on a few areas?

-Is he in his late teens or 20's?
-Is this student around your age?
-Is he exclusively a student or has he "hung out" with you?
-Does the student seem to have an issue with his confidence/ego? (keep in mind that many people who have issues with their confidence feel that they need to compensate somewhere).
-What is your method of teaching (forms, fighting, well rounded)?


:)

[sakko]

I ask ALOT of questions in any class environment, but just for clarification. I love a teacher who will teach you something and immediately follow up with an application for it, being such physical material I'm sure there's lots of opportunities for stuff like that in MA.

[Ryu]

I have a friend who has done very limited martial arts training... he has always thought himself more knowledgable in MA than he really is. I think the reason being is that his personality is a bit too fanciful.....he wasn't the most popular of people, VERY overweight at one point of his life, and has kind of found a... "fantasy life" in comics, Pro wrestling, etc.

He is actually taking lessons with me these days, and has gotten a bit more "realistic" in his abilities....but I feel he keeps trying to justify himself or impress me in some way when he really doesn't have to.

So yes, he can sometimes come across as "arrogant".....
I think it's hard to come to grips with your weaknesses if you've avoided them your entire life.

When we grapple he knows his grappling wasn't as good as he thought it was......

he knows he doesn't know how to avoid being smashed with a stick....

He knows his boxing skills aren't very good at all....and can't stop someone who wants to jab him in the face.

NOW, having realized that, I think it's good for him because he can start to hopefully train with a little less ego involved.

But it's hard when you base a "fantasy" of yourself for reality instead of trying to make your "fantasies" real. Bitter pill to swallow.

Ryu

[Crimson Phoenix]

hands speak louder than tongues...show him who knows better ;)

[SevenStar]

I've had the fortune (or misfortune) of training with several of these people. On the bright side, they will keep you on your toes. They say "well, I'd do this" and then you welcome them to try it. Eventually, they get humbled and tone it down some. On the bad side, this can hold up teaching and can annoy students, as he is interrupting their learning time. People tend to not like being partnered with these know-it-alls because they will be doing a drill and say "you can also do it like this" and go into something other than the drill they are supposed to be doing.

[Oso]

I had a woman do this sort of thing a few months back. Odd, I've seen it in the younger male but never out of a woman. She only came to 8 or 10 classes and kept wanting to play the 'if-then' game with the basic punching/blocking drills.

"if you block my punch like that then I'll just do this"

''yes, you are right, you can do that but you havn't learned to do this correctly yet so don't worry about that yet."

:rolleyes:

[mantis108]

Well, it happens a lot of times. I have students who took other MA or stuff in their professional field (ie correctional services, bouncing, etc...) and would compare their experiences with what we do in my class. Usually, they don't mean it as showing off or trying to out do me. Just trying to get their money worth. I will listen first and then I generally will show my "solutions" and overtime they have learn that asking question can cause physical pain or other discomfort (not that I am being mean or anything). ;) So eventually when I answer by saying "would you like me to show you" to the what if questions, they will reply with "no, thank you, not with you." ;) BTW, I think the what if questions are a sign that the student has yet to "bond" with you and your style.

Mantis108

[joedoe]

Once or twice a year we get students like that. Usually sifu says "OK, try it and I will show you what I will do." So they try it and he shows them what he will do. After a few times they stop asking questions like that. ;)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I've had the fortune (or misfortune) of training with several of these people. ...Jeez, seven, if it's been that many times are you sure you really don't just suck!!!:D

People tend to not like being partnered with these know-it-alls because they will be doing a drill and say "you can also do it like this" and go into something other than the drill they are supposed to be doing. Goddam, that ****s me off.

And the other really funny one is, when Sensei demonstrates something, you start doing it, and the kohai you're doing it on starts telling you how to do it, until you wrench his arm off and beat him to death with it. Or when you're demonstrating something on kohai 1 and kohai 2 steps in and starts saying, 'Yeah and you need to do this and this, and this...' until you politely take kohai 1 and apologetically beat kohai 2 to death with him.

They are always the first or second grade up from the bottom: in one of my schools it was known as 'orange belt syndrome' and Sensei, would always politely beat them to death for it.

As you may have guessed, I agree with Crimson.

Also Chen, as you can see a healthy dose of visualisation, or if you want to stay out of the realms of psychosis, fantasy, can help you to keep patient in times of wanting to take said smartarse and violently dullen it for him.

However, sometimes these people are useful to test your knowledge in ways you may not have thought of, to test your patience, to test your skills at managing class dynamics, and to make sure it's not your ego or your martial style that's not the problem.

Personally, I prefer training.

[Starchaser107]

It's not just you,
there are even know it all's who study an entirely different system who know more than you do regardless of how long and hard youve trained in your particular art. Its amazing how many tv gurus and internet sifu/sensei are out there.
watch yourself.
I dunno why people feel they should pay you to tell you that they know more than you, but hey , that might just be a cool deal:D , take thier money and save your advice for those that really need it.:p

[Chen]

Some really interesting replies, thanks guys.

I like the idea that they have not bonded with the style or with me as their teacher.

I have often thought an answer would be to go harder on them, but this is just not in my personality. At the end of the day, I am the teacher and not there to prove my skill to the likes of individuals as I have described.

I also like oso a relpy

''yes, you are right, you can do that but you havn't learned to do this correctly yet so don't worry about that yet."

Nice point of view!

chen

[Mr Punch]

At the end of the day, I am the teacher and not there to prove my skill to the likes of individuals as I have described. At the end of the day, this is a bad attitude.

You've just come on for the nth time asking for advice about dealing with troublesome students, which despite your having taught for many years, maybe suggests you're lacking in something in the first place.

I love teaching precisely because I am always learning from my students, even (or especially) the awkward ones. It's through addressing their issues, especially the sceptics, that you reassess and recognize your own strengths and weaknesses. So you find the answers to the smartarses, and you don't have to come to a board to ask complete strangers the answers.

You've just made a moral judgment based on a perception of someone else's lack of skills in moulding themselves to your kwoon ethic. So teach them your kwoon ethic. You said you welcome questions, yet you say he's asking questions to the point of becoming arrogant. When is this point exactly? If he is that bad ask him to take the class... believe me, he'll shut up!

You do have to prove your abilities to your students, esp 'the likes' of the one you described. The kwoon is your students', not yours. I can wave a piece of paper at you and say I'm qualified, but in the end, it's precisely your skill that makes the difference.

Not meaning to rag on you, but have you had any training to be a teacher? Just being good at your art doesn't mean you'll be a good teacher. And looking at your statements, you are a bit jaded with the teaching experience. Have the confidence in your ability and take charge. That doesn't mean working him harder, it means working him through his preconceptions and using them to challenge your own and make your skills stronger.

[PHILBERT]

I've seen them a few times, though I didn't put thought into it because my old instructor would do man in the middle and woop them. It's one thing to ask question and another to outsmart. I myself might learn a new thing and I'd be like "So why does it work like that?" I don't question it's ability, I'm simply curious to why it does that. If I throw a punch, I might say "Why punch like that?" to learn why punching that way is good.

The one thing that has gotten me is that I've recently switched schools. I went from a Wing Tsun school to a Wing Chun school. They are almost identical, but I'm discovering new things we do differently, and while I have no problem accepting this new view, I sometimes say "Oh wow, that's different..." because I had done it differently at my old school. There was one kick I recently began learning, I had seen it before, but man it was done differently here and it blew my mind away because I was use to doing it differently at my old school. I didn't think it was any less effective, I just didn't get it at first and said "So why does it work this way?" to grasp the concept of why it works. I realize it works, but why does it work?

It sometimes is like learning to build something. Ok, say I wanna learn to build an engine on a car. I see the engine work, but why does the engine work? Why is it those mechanical instruments do what they do? Because curiousity, we see how it works, now we want to know why it works.

[Mr Punch]

Good post Philbert.

I've chopped about between schools a lot, due to geography, and I've brought this experience into teaching. One of the best ways to approach a difficult student is to explain that you do things differently, and at the same time express an interest in why they do it that way, before explaining why you do it your way.

Then you establish a link to their past knowledge (cos let's face it emptying your cup is easier said than done), a bond, and you are also re-establishing which bleedin art they're learning now!!!:D

This helps to pique their curiosity and enthusiasm, and cut down on their smartarse questions!

You need the patience of the Buddha to be a good teacher of anything!

[apoweyn]

Chen,


At the end of the day, I am the teacher and not there to prove my skill to the likes of individuals as I have described.

I disagree, in some sense. I think SevenStar (not surprisingly) hit the nail on the head.

Students like that do serve a purpose. They create a sense of accountability. Teachers should be able to prove their skills to the likes of individuals as you have described. And very often, questions like "but what would happen if I do this?" are valid.

The thing is that, often, people asking that question are doing so with an agenda in mind. But who cares? The question itself has merit. And maybe the answer is as simple as "you would have a difficult time doing that if I were jabbing at you full speed."

Better yet, how about "well, let's give it a try." Your quote above sets up a hierarchy that I'm not crazy about. It's a valid class structure. 'I'm the teacher and you're the student, so here's how this is going to work.'

Personally, though, I prefer the 'I'm the lab technician and you're the student, so let's give this a go' apprpach. Keeps everyone honest.


Stuart B.

[ZIM]

Chen

I could very likely be wrong in my assumptions here, but it sounds like all of this takes place in an open class with other students present and this IS a factor to your stated predicament.

In the sense that 'observation changes the nature of what is observed' anyhow. ;) See, I'm thinking that having the pressure of having other students present to critique the goings on is a distraction from something that might otherwise be a very good [or at least positive] experience for both the 'arrogant' student and yourself, and thus ultimately the rest of the group.

So- have you considered arranging for a private lesson to address the 'arrogant' students' questions [just one] wherein you each resolve to hash out whats going on and develop the rapport necessary to proceed on a more-respectful basis?

If it doesn't work out, then you can proceed with 'comprehension through pugilation' kung, the mystical Shaolin skill of implanting simple primitive thoughts into another by pounding on them. :p

[Oso]

Where I get frustrated the most in this situation is when the student is very new and has never trained anything before and has some movie inspired idea of what works and what doesn't.

the woman I mentioned before was a complete newbie.

I certainly welcome questions and try to answer them to the best of my ability but in the very beginning phases of training I think a teacher's answer of 'we'll get to that later after you have gotten a handle on this' is the correct answer and the new student should do what they are told. It's a progression of ideas and concepts, imo/ime, some basic some not and the more complex stuff builds on the basics so the beginning students needs to realize that and the teacher's job to impart that as well.

In a public school, students who don't follow the directions of the teacher can harm other students by going off subject.

I totally agree with the concept of a 'cooperative' learning, a good question from a student will often bring out a better teacher in me.

but there is a time and a place for 'I'm the teacher, you're the student'

just my thoughts

[SevenStar]

hablando de los diablos...

I had to deal with this last night. There's a guy - pretty big guy - about 5'11 and 260, but it's flabby - who has a black belt in tkd and previous training in karate and some jjj. He came in last week talking about how he knew some grappling, but that what he knew was not legal in judo. We had him work on falls and things (his falls are awful) and last night we let him roll. I've seen his footwork - he's actually pretty quick on his feet, likely from the tkd, but he's like a mud pig on the ground.

So, he's rolling with some smaller guys and is just bulldogging them, talking about how he knows some street effective grappling that he can't use in class. During one of the rounds, I rolled with him - he's bigger than me and quite naturally tried to jerk me around, which I took in stride. I told him to use what ever he though he knew but couldn't use in judo. I let him do it and would point out "even though you have me in this head lock, I still have side control and you are pinned. Can you get up?" when he tried and said no, then I said "You would've lost that match then" the more I showed him things and the more he realized he wasn't gonna just manhandle me, the nicer he became. After class he thanked we and the other senior belts for showing him some stuff, and that he was anxious to come back to the next class.

[Oso]

Zim, that's a good suggestion.

[Starchaser107]

There are those who ask questions and even God forbid "challenge authourity" lol, and most of the advice i've seen here is suitable for dealing with these incarnations in one way or the other.
However there are , every now and then what I like to call "disruptive elements" that ask questions just for asking questions sake. and this holds true not just for kung fu in a teacher student situation, but in almost all social aspects of life.
Some people are just there to promote discord and enjoy disturbing things.
Its all well and good to say that maybe the student has not yet bonded with the style or instructor. But it could also be that the student is a sociopath, or maybe has an attitude problem or problem with authority. What would you do if such be the case?
Thankfully this isn't as frequent an occurrence as just the overzealous arrogant student incarnation.

[Ray Pina]

You have to beat on those types a bit. Otherwise they get visions of grander. You don't have to hurt them. But if they want to test you: pass! And pass brilliantly, painfully and without question!!! They'll stop testing you, and start "asking" you.