Footwork in forms.

[Mr Punch]

Wing chun forms completely suck with respect to teaching useful practical fighting footwork.

Discuss!



:D

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen teaches effective direct (entering, intercepting) and evasive footworks in all the forms including Siu Lin Tao. We also have a footworks form, "Siu Baat Gwa" which teaches inner and outer circle concepts.http://futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[aelward]

I guess we are not including the dummy form?

Anyway, here's my POV. Wing Chun hand motions as seen in SNT, CK, and BJ, are simple units of movement-- precise and relaxed, but otherwise dead building blocks that are brought to life by a practitioner through an understanding of theory, chi sao practice, and san da practice. While these simple movements are limited in number, they can be combined in limitless combination and used flexibly in application. This, as opposed to many other styles where one goes through forms fighting an imaginary opponent and developing specific techniques.

Footwork is similar. The first form roots you to the ground and links your upper and lower body; the second form teaches you how to take that basic, stable stance and apply it in motion. And with the combination of these basic units of turning and stepping, you can come up with all kinds of combinations of footwork.

Now add the dummy form and you end up with all kinds of interesting footwork....

[Mr Punch]

Aelward... game on!:D

(No, we're not including the dummy form as most schools I know teach it after the other three.)

OK, taken that it's building blocks and it's up to the student to make it come alive through chi sao and san da... but... also a lot of fighters, and MAists say that basics are important, and they also say footwork is one of the most important aspects of MA etc...

in that case,
1) why does it usually take so long to learn the forms, especially up to any foot movement?
2) why is there basically one kind of step in chum kiu and in a straight line?
3) why are most of the stepping moves in ck double handed (a fairly unrealistic basic strike unit, unless you count po pai, of which there are... none in ck, or lan sao... ditto), thus neglecting the basic damage delivery system we need in our muscle memories from day two?
4) if chi sao is supposed to be the progression to make the building blocks live, why do a lot of schools start with stationary chi sao?
5) why is the huen bo the only offline stepping technique?
6) why is huen bo taught only in bj, as it is surely a simple staple in many fights and styles for jamming your opponent's footwork, positioning for strike delivery, positioning for multiple opponents, occupying your opponent's centre, getting your opponent to change his attack angle: and its logical extensions are perfect for upping the low kicking, sweep and tan gerk arsenal of WC...?
7) especially as the stop kick is considered by many WCers and other stylists to be pretty useful, why are there no advancing stepping kicks starting with ck?
8) why are all the steps flat-footed?
9) I've never seen a fight were someone didn't go back... why are there no backward steps in the forms?

OK, keep it clean... :D

Signed,

The Devil's Advocate.
:cool: :D

[Mr Punch]

Oh and Sam, thanks for the link... it sounds interesting: too bad the video section is still under construction.

[black and blue]

Well, I'm too much of a newbie to truly know the answers - but here's my stab at 'em.


1) why does it usually take so long to learn the forms, especially up to any foot movement?

I think the answer to this Q, in my opinion, is that while the forms teach us concepts, basic movements, points of reference etc, they are never isolated. Drills go hand in hand with the forms, and it is here that footwork comes into play.

Maybe it's once again a question of how Yip Man streamlined the forms. In some other lineages I have seen the forms were longer and included a more varied use of footwork.

2) why is there basically one kind of step in chum kiu and in a straight line?

Dunno :) With the turns in CK combined with the steps, you could use these motions to move in all directions.

3) why are most of the stepping moves in ck double handed (a fairly unrealistic basic strike unit, unless you count po pai, of which there are... none in ck, or lan sao... ditto), thus neglecting the basic damage delivery system we need in our muscle memories from day two?

To promote balance? Perhaps also to emphasis that whatever you do it's double handed. When doing Dan Chi Sau with movement, for example, the retracted hand at your side should always be adjusting.

4) if chi sao is supposed to be the progression to make the building blocks live, why do a lot of schools start with stationary chi sao?

We start, at my Kwoon, doing Poon Sau stationary as a means to work on the roll, keep structure, use and develop stance etc... but as soon as possible introduce movement, steps, turns etc. Stationary Chi Sau makes no sense to me personally. For developing Poon Sau, sure... but for Chi Sau proper.... naw. I'm looking to work off a moving partner.

5) why is the huen bo the only offline stepping technique?

Good question. When working off random attacks I find myself using the simple stepping motions from the Knife Form to fill space. (I have been shown stepping motions, but not the Knife Form itself).

6) why is huen bo taught only in bj, as it is surely a simple staple in many fights and styles for jamming your opponent's footwork, positioning for strike delivery, positioning for multiple opponents, occupying your opponent's centre, getting your opponent to change his attack angle: and its logical extensions are perfect for upping the low kicking, sweep and tan gerk arsenal of WC...?

Stop asking difficult questions!! :) An interesting question, however. In my first lesson I was shown and stumbled through, YCKYM, Bik Ma, Huen Bo, Chor Ma, Punching, Tan Sau. And then did some partner drills using them. I think in my second lesson I was shown the first few movements of SNT.


7) especially as the stop kick is considered by many WCers and other stylists to be pretty useful, why are there no advancing stepping kicks starting with ck?

Didn't someone once say every step is a potential kick?

8) why are all the steps flat-footed?

Do you mean why do we not stand on the ball of our feet? Rooting primarily, IMHO.

9) I've never seen a fight were someone didn't go back... why are there no backward steps in the forms?

We look to move forward whenever possible, but I have worked drills that involve stepping at a 45 degree angle forward AND back. Why not in the forms? Blame Yip Man... always messin with the d@rn forms, he just couldn't leave em alone!

:D

[TjD]

Originally posted by Mat
in that case,
1) why does it usually take so long to learn the forms, especially up to any foot movement?

you have to learn how to stand before you learn how to walk. standing correctly isn't as easy as we'd like it to be and can take longer than we want to wait.



2) why is there basically one kind of step in chum kiu and in a straight line?

There are the three (or 7) most important steps in chum kiu:
1. The chum kiu step to move the body as a whole; happens 6 times with either foot forward with double bong sau, or bong and wu sau in our chum kiu
The steps with bong and wu are actually two steps: moving a leg outwards sideways, then pulling a leg inward sideways
The steps with the double bong are two steps as well: moving a leg outwards fowards, then pulling a leg inward forwards
2. moving a leg forward; happens before double jut sau when both legs come together parallel
3. moving a leg backward; after double jut, double palm strike, huen saus and lap saus, one leg slides backwards and we shift into cat stance.

if you look at it this way; there aren't many other leg motions that can be performed with wing chun structure other than those found in chum kiu



3) why are most of the stepping moves in ck double handed (a fairly unrealistic basic strike unit, unless you count po pai, of which there are... none in ck, or lan sao... ditto), thus neglecting the basic damage delivery system we need in our muscle memories from day two?

as with any motion found in any WC form, it's not directly an application or a technique. its a body mechanic. once you can properly move your body you can strap whatever hand tools you want on top of that power generation and do many many things. again, things take time. you can't immediately be shown how to throw a super-strong punch on day two, when you don't know how to stand, let alone move. either way, if you look at it as a body mechanic instead of a technique, it is there from day two.



4) if chi sao is supposed to be the progression to make the building blocks live, why do a lot of schools start with stationary chi sao?

again, you have to learn to stand before you can learn to walk. stationary chi sau teaches you how to stand and absorb force while standing. WC follows a logical progression, taking things slowly gives you an opportunity to really examine what it's trying to teach you. Rushing straight into sparring without having solidified the basics will lead one to think wing chun is useless, or tan/fook/bong are useless, or the steps are useless, because they can't pull them off. This is from lack of practice, not any lack in wing chun: Does it make sense that as soon as a motion is shown you should be able to use it perfectly? chances are you need to work at it and figure it out.



5) why is the huen bo the only offline stepping technique?

offline? i'm not sure what you mean. a little clarification is in order



6) why is huen bo taught only in bj, as it is surely a simple staple in many fights and styles for jamming your opponent's footwork, positioning for strike delivery, positioning for multiple opponents, occupying your opponent's centre, getting your opponent to change his attack angle: and its logical extensions are perfect for upping the low kicking, sweep and tan gerk arsenal of WC...?

If you look at huen bo as a body mechanic as opposed to a technique or application to be used as found, it's in half the steps of the wooden dummy.



7) especially as the stop kick is considered by many WCers and other stylists to be pretty useful, why are there no advancing stepping kicks starting with ck?

advancing stepping kick? what do you mean? wouldn't shift -> kick -> double bong sau be an advancing stepping kick? what about shift -> kick -> bong + wu sau?



8) why are all the steps flat-footed?

what about shifting the foot back and going into cat stance? this is not flat footed. as to the rest, a flat foot gives much better balance and root.



9) I've never seen a fight were someone didn't go back... why are there no backward steps in the forms?

see above about shifting the foot back.

moral:
1. stop seeing everything shown as a technique or application. figure out the body mechanics behind it.
2. if you really want foot work, look to the knives :D

[kj]

Nice summary, TjD.
- kj

[Universal Stance]

In TWC, footwork starts (in forms anyway) starting with the Advanced SLT. Our CK form teaches us much more -- such as half steps, full steps, cross-steps, t-stance, and shifting. BL continues it. MYJ teaches us the remainder.

Maybe TWC is the exception to this question.

Keep in mind that footwork is trained outside the forms as well. I learned all the footwork before my second form.

[yuanfen]

Mat-

Footwork and its principles are in EVERY wing chun form and the jong and the weapons. On line, sidestepping, turning, circling,
changing, chasing, cutting in,cutting off, evading, closing---its all there.All in due course- developmentally laid out- one by one-in the progression of the forms..

If anyone(generic universal) hasnt learned them- pointless to blame the subject
or style(wing chun).Best to find someone who knows and learn from them.

joy chaudhuri

joy

[old jong]

All the steps necessary are in the forms*.We only have to extract them and use them.
The Jong,Kwan, Bui Gee,Bot Jam Do,Chum Kiu are full of them...But are all based on YGKYM.
All are also worthless without proper structure or body unity in orfer to "base" a Wing Chun Motion.

* (with the exception of the T step witch is exclusive to TWC)

[teazer]

Originally posted by Mat
(No, we're not including the dummy form as most schools I know teach it after the other three.)............

in that case,
1) why does it usually take so long to learn the forms, especially up to any foot movement?
2) why is there basically one kind of step in chum kiu and in a straight line?
3) why are most of the stepping moves in ck double handed (a fairly unrealistic basic strike unit, unless you count po pai, of which there are... none in ck, or lan sao... ditto), thus neglecting the basic damage delivery system we need in our muscle memories from day two?
4) if chi sao is supposed to be the progression to make the building blocks live, why do a lot of schools start with stationary chi sao?
5) why is the huen bo the only offline stepping technique?
6) why is huen bo taught only in bj, as it is surely a simple staple in many fights and styles for jamming your opponent's footwork, positioning for strike delivery, positioning for multiple opponents, occupying your opponent's centre, getting your opponent to change his attack angle: and its logical extensions are perfect for upping the low kicking, sweep and tan gerk arsenal of WC...?
7) especially as the stop kick is considered by many WCers and other stylists to be pretty useful, why are there no advancing stepping kicks starting with ck?
8) why are all the steps flat-footed?
9) I've never seen a fight were someone didn't go back... why are there no backward steps in the forms?


While I've seen the MYJ taught earlier than BJ, assuming knowledge of just the 3 forms......

1. That's a question best put to individual instructors. Hopefully they teach new information when it becomes useful to the student. Some prefer to get people training footwork in the first couple of classes. Others prefer to wait, for reasons good and bad. Much depends on the goals. You can speed up some parts of the program, but when you go back to flesh them out it can take longer.
2. I would say there are two kinds of steps. Which ones do you think are missing? In which direction is the straight line going?
3. Perhaps it's more important what you can't do this way than what you can. Try doing it with one hand only and see what happens.
4. It is also a building block. Progressively you add in other factors once you can deal with what you've got.
5. It isn't, though you have to recheck some of the assumptions of your forms. Also, shifting will cover many of the situations where stepping is often used.
6. It involves crossing your center, hence is inherently risky, though can be useful or required. Other alternatives are often better.
7. When and why are you kicking? If you could move forward to kick, wouldn't you have already moved forward to punch?
8. Depends who you watch. However the stepping is inherently conservative. It is designed to be functional in close where pushing and shoving are frequent concerns.
9. Perhaps because people don't need further encouragement to go backwards. Though if you look closely at the shifting and particularly the last kick to gum sau transition in CK, that has all the needed info.

From your questions, you obviously have a grasp of the issues at hand, what do you think?

[TjD]

Originally posted by teazer

While I've seen the MYJ taught earlier than BJ, assuming knowledge of just the 3 forms......


i learned the entire MYJ form before learning BJ! however usually my sifu teaches the first two sections of MYJ before BJ, then the rest afterwards... depends on the student really.

or it mighta been that i bought a jong that summer and he liked how i was progressing :D

[Phil Redmond]

Look here for TWC forms
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp#top

look at the bottom of this page for TWC footwork patterns.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp

Look here for Wooden Dummy Sections 1-4 and Application
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp

[yuanfen]

Phil-
Thanks again for the link to the generously shared info. on your
well done site. Congrats.

Joy C.

[Universal Stance]

Sifu Redmond's site rocks.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by TjD

you have to learn how to stand before you learn how to walk. standing correctly isn't as easy as we'd like it to be and can take longer than we want to wait.I don't think that's an excuse for an MA with supposedly quick to learn basics to fighting ability. OK standing is as basic as it gets, but footwork must be very close behind for a practical fighting art.



There are the three (or 7) most important steps in chum kiu...Yep, true. Practising CK very slowly and/or precisely (as of course you should) will help you to understand these steps... But the mechanics with fast full contact with another person basically change these steps into at the most: two! One straight forward, and one straight backward (albeit into a cat stance). The differences in fighting are too subtle to be worth concentrating on to the exclusion of say, getting more practise in on something usually more applicable like the beautiful feeler that is huen bo, the fast following steps of pin ma, or practising a cat stance with someone (eg, IMO a cat stance is absolutely useless if used as a direct backward step, and also it is pretty useless to practise its delicate dynamics without another person testing you).


The steps with bong and wu are actually two steps: moving a leg outwards sideways, then pulling a leg inward sideways
The steps with the double bong are two steps as well: moving a leg outwards fowards, then pulling a leg inward forwards
2. moving a leg forward; happens before double jut sau when both legs come together parallel
3. moving a leg backward; after double jut, double palm strike, huen saus and lap saus, one leg slides backwards and we shift into cat stance.Sorry mate, this inward outward sideward awkward but has completely thrown me...! I know it's tricky but can you try that explanation again?


if you look at it this way; there aren't many other leg motions that can be performed with wing chun structure other than those found in chum kiuAgain: huen bo - a basic mainstay of many MAs and very effective if trained a lot in a variety of sits... not only in the third of a long-time learned set of three forms. And, I know some WC lines don't have it, but pin ma is pretty useful too.

as with any motion found in any WC form, it's not directly an application or a technique. its a body mechanic. once you can properly move your body you can strap whatever hand tools you want on top of that power generation and do many many thingsYep it's a body mechanic. But it's fallacious and a waste of training time to practise a body mechanic that frankly is completely different to the mechanic you will be using... in fact it's training something else entirely!!!:D So, training a double bong sao, which I don't believe I have ever used in the kwoon or out, is actually training a body mechanic you don't use, so how are you going to strap on another hand tool?!


again, you have to learn to stand before you can learn to walk. stationary chi sau teaches you how to stand and absorb force while standing. Yep, completely agree, bad trolling on my part I'm afraid!:D
WC follows a logical progression, taking things slowly gives you an opportunity to really examine what it's trying to teach you. If we are assuming that we are not dealing with people who are completely unfamiliar with the basic anatomy and physiology of the human body I would say it is too much examination and not enough practice! I like to think that most people are not so physically incompetant as to need so long on their own without any resistance...
offline? i'm not sure what you mean. a little clarification is in orderAs in not on a direct front-centre to front-centre line. Stepping off to work the angles, 45, 30, however few degrees necessary...

If you look at huen bo as a body mechanic as opposed to a technique or application to be used as found, it's in half the steps of the wooden dummy.Of course it's a body mechanic! That doesn't answer my question! And I was theorising about slt, ck and bj, not the dummy, as the dummy is usually the last to be taught of the four unarmed forms, and after a long time... so it still doesn't answer why most of us do not learn huen bo from the start...
advancing stepping kick? what do you mean? wouldn't shift -> kick -> double bong sau be an advancing stepping kick? what about shift -> kick -> bong + wu sau?No, they do not advance. Most of the versions of ck I've seen and the two I've been taught have a turn and kick, and don't actually advance with a step. OK, so everybody says, 'but the principle is there to turn any step into a kick', but that's like saying 'the principles are there for all of us to be able to do the splits': doesn't mean we can without practice!

what about shifting the foot back and going into cat stance? this is not flat footed. as to the rest, a flat foot gives much better balance and root.Cat stance is not flat footed. It is also useless unless you practise it with somebody moving against you.
A flat foot does not give you better balance or root: it makes you much much easier to throw, knock over, trip, and it makes you much slower.
see above about shifting the foot back.Hmmm, straight back step, root, floating front foot: you're either going on your ass or you gonna root well enough for him to punch you and just leave your boots standing where the rest of your body was...!:D
Yet in chi sao, or most 'self defence' apps I've done in WC when you get pushed back you go off line and/or come straight/tangentially forward again... but if you use ck's step back, you have sacrificed your forward returning mobility for a root which will get you flattened.


moral:
1. stop seeing everything shown as a technique or application. figure out the body mechanics behind it.
I don't. As OJ rightly pointed out, I was trolling!:D The other topics were mostly lineage crap.

My valid points to this trolling are:
1)You have practice moving footwork from day one to compliment your understanding of the root form slt.
2)You should practise stationary and moving footwork with a partner as and whenever possible.
3)You should do it all slowly, then practise again quicker and lighter.
4)You should do huen bo from the start. It is the life of WC footwork.
5)You should still spend the vast proportion of your chi sao as a beginner stationary.

I am trolling but great answer, and I would appreciate anyone else's input, or your comeback...

Cheers Bnb, no time to answer yours too I'm afraid...

Peace all,
Mat,
The thinking person's troll/eight-year beginner.

:)

[yuanfen]

Mat-trolling indeed!!!:D

1. Fasle- Wing Chun can be learned in a short amount of time.

2. False- the double bong sao is not useful.
Many motions have specific developments in mind- same goes for the double bong sao.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Mat-trolling indeed!!!:D

1. Fasle- Wing Chun can be learned in a short amount of time.Oh Joy! I said:

I don't think that's an excuse for an MA with supposedly quick to learn basics to fighting ability.

Which is specific in avoiding saying anything about learning the whole of the WC system well in a short amount of time. It's a road. It's life. I did say and I do believe that the basics of WC (as assimiliable in a relatively short time by a relatively able person) can be applied to a fight situation within a short time.

And that is precisely one of the reasons why I think WC footwork should be more comprehensively taught earlier than most curricula. Most people unfortunately seem to learn WC as a primarily static art.


2. False- the double bong sao is not useful.
Many motions have specific developments in mind- same goes for the double bong sao. By it's inclusion at that stage of CK, it is given over-prominence: I stand by what I said; its body mechanics are not useful for many fighting abilities, or even for practical generation of energy into the opponent.

I'm not saying I disagree with the wisdom of the forefathers... I have no way of knowing what their emphases were directly, except through kuen kit etc!:eek: I am saying I disagree with the emphasis it is given over for example, ahem let's say, footwork drills, by many teachers I have come across.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Mat
I don't think that's an excuse for an MA with supposedly quick to learn basics to fighting ability. OK standing is as basic as it gets, but footwork must be very close behind for a practical fighting art.


[/b]Yep, true. Practising CK very slowly and/or precisely (as of course you should) will help you to understand these steps... But the mechanics with fast full contact with another person basically change these steps into at the most: two! One straight forward, and one straight backward (albeit into a cat stance). The differences in fighting are too subtle to be worth concentrating on to the exclusion of say, getting more practise in on something usually more applicable like the beautiful feeler that is huen bo, the fast following steps of pin ma, or practising a cat stance with someone (eg, IMO a cat stance is absolutely useless if used as a direct backward step, and also it is pretty useless to practise its delicate dynamics without another person testing you).

[/b]Sorry mate, this inward outward sideward awkward but has completely thrown me...! I know it's tricky but can you try that explanation again?

Again: huen bo - a basic mainstay of many MAs and very effective if trained a lot in a variety of sits... not only in the third of a long-time learned set of three forms. And, I know some WC lines don't have it, but pin ma is pretty useful too.
[/b]Yep it's a body mechanic. But it's fallacious and a waste of training time to practise a body mechanic that frankly is completely different to the mechanic you will be using... in fact it's training something else entirely!!!:D So, training a double bong sao, which I don't believe I have ever used in the kwoon or out, is actually training a body mechanic you don't use, so how are you going to strap on another hand tool?!

Yep, completely agree, bad trolling on my part I'm afraid!:DIf we are assuming that we are not dealing with people who are completely unfamiliar with the basic anatomy and physiology of the human body I would say it is too much examination and not enough practice! I like to think that most people are not so physically incompetant as to need so long on their own without any resistance...As in not on a direct front-centre to front-centre line. Stepping off to work the angles, 45, 30, however few degrees necessary...
[/b]Of course it's a body mechanic! That doesn't answer my question! And I was theorising about slt, ck and bj, not the dummy, as the dummy is usually the last to be taught of the four unarmed forms, and after a long time... so it still doesn't answer why most of us do not learn huen bo from the start...No, they do not advance. Most of the versions of ck I've seen and the two I've been taught have a turn and kick, and don't actually advance with a step. OK, so everybody says, 'but the principle is there to turn any step into a kick', but that's like saying 'the principles are there for all of us to be able to do the splits': doesn't mean we can without practice!
[/b]Cat stance is not flat footed. It is also useless unless you practise it with somebody moving against you.
A flat foot does not give you better balance or root: it makes you much much easier to throw, knock over, trip, and it makes you much slower.[/b]Hmmm, straight back step, root, floating front foot: you're either going on your ass or you gonna root well enough for him to punch you and just leave your boots standing where the rest of your body was...!:D
Yet in chi sao, or most 'self defence' apps I've done in WC when you get pushed back you go off line and/or come straight/tangentially forward again... but if you use ck's step back, you have sacrificed your forward returning mobility for a root which will get you flattened.

I don't. As OJ rightly pointed out, I was trolling!:D The other topics were mostly lineage crap.

My valid points to this trolling are:
1)You have practice moving footwork from day one to compliment your understanding of the root form slt.
2)You should practise stationary and moving footwork with a partner as and whenever possible.
3)You should do it all slowly, then practise again quicker and lighter.
4)You should do huen bo from the start. It is the life of WC footwork.
5)You should still spend the vast proportion of your chi sao as a beginner stationary.

I am trolling but great answer, and I would appreciate anyone else's input, or your comeback...

Cheers Bnb, no time to answer yours too I'm afraid...

Peace all,
Mat,
The thinking person's troll/eight-year beginner.

:) [/B]

heheh yeah i can see the trolling. as to the trolling responses the only thing i can say is "let me show ya" :D

as to your valid points i agree with most of them, except for the huen bo thing. i'd say the first step/kick in the knife form is the life of WC footwork. depends if you like a line or a circle i guess.