My first lesson!

[sakko]

Ok, well I just sat in to watch :P I haven't signed up yet, but I wanted some opinions on what went on.

I went to Cheng's Shaolin Kung Fu in Buena Park, CA. The students arrived pretty promptly and class began with some exercising in the form of different kicks, 25 per left and right, about 4 or 5 sets.

The studio is kinda small, and when they got into forms, lots of times they had to stop, move back as a group, then continue the form, cause the real estate just wasn't happening.

They practiced forms for about 30-40 minutes, then some people practiced weapon forms... fan (is this a weapon?), sword, and one chick did dual swords. That was interesting but I could tell that the size of the studio was a problem, one dude wacked the wall with a sword by accident :(

They then went to sparring and by the end of class everyone had gotten alot of participation in.

Then I got to talk to a guy named Jim, one of the instructors. He'd been at that school for about 15 years he said, and the Sifu had been there for about 20-25 years. He told me if I started up, I would start up in that class, and as they were doing with a few other students in the back of the class they would take time to teach me the basics and forms one on one. Then when I was ready I would join the class in doing forms practice. Once I'd gotten some experience in that, I could participate in the sparring.

Jim described forms as sort of a vehicle for learning everything there is about Kung Fu, as you learn forms and participate in sparring, you begin to implement the things you've learned into technique against your opponent. As you learn more techniques your ability to spar and defend yourself grows. This of course takes time.

They do rank there by colored belts or sashes, which I thought was only reserved for karate. Students start at white belt, and continue on until blackbelt. I asked how long some of the students had been there. The ones that had 5+ years were all blackbelts, though one student kind of stood out. He frequently broke from forms practice to study other students, as though he'd made a mistake and was trying to re-learn the form. So it made me wonder, just what does a blackbelt mean? Maybe its a misconception as I'm no expert but I thought it was indicative of a great degree of skill.. shouldn't one with a blackbelt have no problems, executing forms at all? I don't mean to dog the guy or anything but I am just concerned cause I have heard alot about the McDojo theory and how schools will hand out belts that are not yet earned, and I wanna make sure I understand what rank means what before diving into a place that is doling out rewards not yet accomplished.

Anyway, I asked him about competitions, he said that they went to one, and were not invited back. I guess their style was a bit to aggressive for the other combatants. Jim told me Sifu says no face and no groin in sparring, but that's about it.

Anyway, anyone got any comments? Anything stand out as odd? I'd appreciate any input, thanks :D

[MasterKiller]

Just because you get a black belt or sash, that doesn't mean you know everything. He may have just learned the form.

Usually, having a black sash just means you are a senior student who has worked hard enough to move past the basics of the system. At least in CMA, it doesn't make you a master, by any stretch of the imagination.

[sakko]

Thanks for the clarification, anything else seem common/uncommon?

[Ray Pina]

Seems like your typical school: learn sone forms, do drills and progress to sparring.

Don't be turned off by the size of the school. I learned S Mantis in a hallway ... really!

This could be a good start to get a foundation. Learn the stances, not necessarily for use, but to build a strong base. Learn to stick, roll the elbows, ect. After getting some experience you can always move on.

I do suggest at least checking out 2 to 3 other schools. It's so much better to put time in upfront. It saves you in the end.

Also, don't be Kung Fu crazy. If you see a good karate school, where the students can issue power in their strikes and there's a serious atmosphere, don't be prejudiced because of the McDojo label. It goes for Kung Fu too.

Seak full power training. Not for your first day, but look how guys who have been at the school for a year or two train. Does it look realistic?

You have to start somewhere. While I wish I had trained with my master as a kid, you might be familier with the phrase: "When the student is ready, the master will present himself."

Best of luck.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by sakko [/i]
Ok, well I just sat in to watch :P I haven't signed up yet, but I wanted some opinions on what went on.

I went to Cheng's Shaolin Kung Fu in Buena Park, CA. The students arrived pretty promptly and class began with some exercising in the form of different kicks, 25 per left and right, about 4 or 5 sets.

***Did they do any stretching? This is very important so you don't hurt yourself.

The studio is kinda small, and when they got into forms, lots of times they had to stop, move back as a group, then continue the form, cause the real estate just wasn't happening.

***Don't worry about this. I have the same problem in my school. You just adjust to it. Good to get outside on your own and practice too.

They practiced forms for about 30-40 minutes, then some people practiced weapon forms... fan (is this a weapon?), sword, and one chick did dual swords. That was interesting but I could tell that the size of the studio was a problem, one dude wacked the wall with a sword by accident :(

*** It happens.

They then went to sparring and by the end of class everyone had gotten alot of participation in.

***What kind of sparring was it?
.

Jim described forms as sort of a vehicle for learning everything there is about Kung Fu, as you learn forms and participate in sparring, you begin to implement the things you've learned into technique against your opponent. As you learn more techniques your ability to spar and defend yourself grows. This of course takes time.

***He's right about that.

They do rank there by colored belts or sashes, which I thought was only reserved for karate. Students start at white belt, and continue on until blackbelt. I asked how long some of the students had been there. The ones that had 5+ years were all blackbelts, though one student kind of stood out.

****This is becoming more common. What kind of uniforms did they wear in class?

He frequently broke from forms practice to study other students, as though he'd made a mistake and was trying to re-learn the form. So it made me wonder, just what does a blackbelt mean?

***It could be that he took some time off from training and needed to relearn a form?? I'm a "black belt" and sometimes I forget stuff too. Even my Sifu does. He has to go back to tapes he made when he was younger.

Maybe its a misconception as I'm no expert but I thought it was indicative of a great degree of skill.. shouldn't one with a blackbelt have no problems, executing forms at all? I don't mean to dog the guy or anything but I am just concerned cause I have heard alot about the McDojo theory and how schools will hand out belts that are not yet earned, and I wanna make sure I understand what rank means what before diving into a place that is doling out rewards not yet accomplished.

***You might want to check this out a little further and find out why this black belt was so behind compared to the rest of the class.

Anyway, I asked him about competitions, he said that they went to one, and were not invited back. I guess their style was a bit to aggressive for the other combatants. Jim told me Sifu says no face and no groin in sparring, but that's about it.

***This seems a bit odd. There are usually competitions going on all the time, so does he mean they don't compete at all anymore because they go disqualified from this one tournament? And who got disqualified? They usually only disqualify one person, not the entire school. I'd get more info on this.

If I were you I'd sit in on another class and ask a few follow up questions.

Anyway, anyone got any comments? Anything stand out as odd? I'd appreciate any input, thanks :D [/QUOTE]

[sakko]

Hey thanks for the info guys, very helpful...

Here's some more information on what was going on.

*There was no stretching before hand. Some of the students had just finished the Tai-chi class that had run the previous hour, but alot of the students who just arrived got right to it. I know personally I would NEED some stretching cause I'm pretty out of shape :(

*The sparring was one on one, I talked to Jim the instructor dude about it and he told me that all the different students were sparring at their own ability, and everyone sort of advances at their own pace. He said they try to pair new students up with blackbelts, cause they can help them alot more than another student.

* Clothing wise, some had like loose workout pants and T-shirts, but the majority had some black kung-fu type suits (with the ornate buttons down the center of the shirt). They were kinda dingy actually tho I imagine they end up that way after washing em enough :P

*Jim didn't mention any tourney "disqualifications" per se. He said they attended a competition, and some of the people didn't like the way the people from their school fought. He said Sifu teaches to stay away from the face and groin during practice, but other than that, anything goes. Whether or not face and groin is endorsed during competition. He didn't go into details, but competition isn't really something I'm looking forward to anyway, er at least now I guess.

I'm going back to that school on monday to watch their advanced class. Jim said there would be all of the advanced students there and its pretty interesting to watch... Today I'm going to a San Soo school near my work. It's run by a guy named Ted Sias, in Huntington Beach, CA. Looking forward to seeing the difference between Shaolin and San Soo :D

[neigung]

They didn't do any stances?
How about upper body exercises?

[truewrestler]

Isn't San Soo Korean?

[sakko]

Ahh if you mean by exercises pushups, situps, etc, no... only exercise done before forms was those kicks, 25 left, 25 right, switch style of kick, 25 left, 25 right, about 4 times..

As far as stances, I was kinda unimpressed, alot of students, especially the kids seemed very lax about stance AND form... the blackbelts were much more serious, I was impressed and hope to be able to move like that some day, with moves that were very precise, quick, and determined. But stances were used to begin and end their form, but it didn't seem to be a core practice or exercise...

About San Soo, I had done a little research, here's a link with some descriptions etc...

http://www.redshift.com/~mjacobi/
click on the grandmaster woo section...

it seems to be Chinese, though I'm not sure how traditional it is...

[neigung]

The core of kung fu is the stance and qigong training. Without that, they are no more than paper tigers.
Kicking and forms do not make for good kung fu.

[neit]

true enough, that is one of the problems with my current school. half the people cannot even do a proper horse stance.

[Mr Punch]

Sounds like you're getting some good advice, and I'm a bit short of time so I'll limit it to this:


neigung
The core of kung fu is the stance and qigong training. Without that, they are no more than paper tigers.
Is not correct. It is an opinion.
I agree with one of the cores being stancework as with any martial art, but a lot of kungfu styles don't use chikung.

This is especially true of 'external' styles. Without getting into the specious argument of what is external and what is internal, I've been to hung gar, lau gar and choy li fut classes which have had the slightest or no reference to chikung, and I've practised a lot of wing chun, which also usually has none.

Anyway, there are many reasons to take a MA: sports combat, self defence, cultural considerations, fitness, cool outfits...

check around, take your time, and choose the one with the teacher you get on with at first. You can find a hard-nosed ******* later if you want, or modify any number of choices.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by neit
true enough, that is one of the problems with my current school. half the people cannot even do a proper horse stance. As long as you do, you should be whoopin ass then!:D

Don't worry about the others!

[sakko]

What is qi gong and chikung?

One thing I noticed about the class was the different level of involvement the students had. Some were kinda standing there throwing punches like little girls with little effort, others were taking the time to get precise movements. Jim told me, and it sounds reasonable to me, that you only get out what you put into kung fu.

I would like to learn stances as well, though I didn't see any of that going on I will ask when I go back to check out the adv kung fu class. Is it something that must be tought by a master? Could one learn on ones own with aid from books/manuals?

[CoconutRobot]

Not all kung fu schools will do stance training in class. I am expected to work on my stances daily but we do no stance training in class time. It would waste our time together. With that said, any respectable school will teach you basic stances in the beginning (if not first thing) -- since it is commonly referred to as the foundation of your kung fu.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

what he said. we are expected to train at home as well, not just twice a week at the kwoon then forget about it until we go back. you can tell the people who view it as more of a job than anything else- myself and another guy who is now a good friend could do the second kata after a few weeks, whereas all the others in our class took far longer, because we both practiced away from the class.

and so, we get shown the stances and once we can do them without difficulty we are expected to train them by ourselves. same with things like basic punches and kicks.

as for this class you want to join, ask the instructor why they dont warm up beforehand. we do a fairly full stretching workout before each class, and it makes you far more flexible