TKD at Shaolin

[jun_erh]

I noticed Gene mentioned in one of the the main forum threads that TKD has caught on in a big way at Shaolin. Not to be a snob, i don't even know much about TKD although the schools in my area seem to be more like daycare centers than anything else, but what could a shaolin disciple possibly gain from studying it?

[crazymaddrunk]

kicks, kicks, and kicks...the same reason Jackie Chan, Carter Wong, and several other chinese martial arts movie stars received black belts in Hapkido....

[Royal Dragon]

But Shaolin already HAS an endless number of kicks.

[Brad]

And maybe a shot at the Olympics? :D

[crazymaddrunk]

I think the way they're delivered may be somewhat different...

check it out, I found a good site about it:

http://www.web-vue.com/hapkido.htm

[Royal Dragon]

I'd like to see some corraberating evidence to back that claim. It sounds like yet another Korean boasting for credit he probably does not desreve to me.

[crazymaddrunk]

...as much as I know it would break your heart (and ego) to admit that Jackie Chan would actually learn a Korean art to better himself, it's TRUE. Actually, this is KNOWN fact and Jackie has even talked about it in interviews...

Shaolin does NOT contain every single martial art technique in the world. Even Mr. Ching has stated that the monks are enthusiastic of TKD...

It's the closed minds out there that keeps the martial arts down...unfortunately we (martial artists) are partly to blame when it comes to being ridiculed, because it's always the same old thing: "Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Brazilian, etc. are the best martial arts!" (pick one), or "Your school stinks because you wear a different uniform than everyone else..."

yet another links on Jackie Chan and Hapkido:

http://www.jinpal.com/jackie-chan-t.htm

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting, it's the same artical as above. I'd like to know "When" Chan studied form this Korean master. I have some realy old Jackie Chang ideos at home. He looks like he's in his early 20's in them, maybe younger. His kicks look fine to me, high, fast and just as flashy as seen today. Somehow, I highly doubt he had to go learn "Hapkido" to get good kicks.

The artical is almost as if he completely sucked at kicking till he learned it from this Korean guy, and I just plain out don't buy it one bit. No way a classicaly trained Chinese actor is going to be clueless when it comes to Kicking.

Also, I have seen EVRY Kick found in Korean, Japanese arts present in Chinese Kung Fu as well. The execution may be a bit different, but it's all there. Infact, I haven't seen ANYTHING found in other non Chinese arts that isn't in Kung Fu as well. The only exception is all the snuggling you see the BJJ guys do.


Shaolin does NOT contain every single martial art technique in the world.

Reply]
Maybe not (BIG Maybe), but to think a "Hapkido" guy has anything that isn't in Shaolin is silly. Shaolin Kung Fu is so vast, it's barely comprehendable, especially when you get into all the offshoot styles. Infact, from what I see of pretty much all Korean, and Japanese arts (that I have been exposed to), they really don't have anything at all that can't be found in Shaolin Kung Fu's general training. Only the entries, and use of the skillls is what differes.

[crazymaddrunk]

Again, your EGO is in the way, RD. Since you prolly study Shaolin KF in one form or another, of course you think it's best.

It's kind of close-minded and egotistical to think someone, even Jacky Chan, can't learn something from someone else...

[crazymaddrunk]

From the OFFICIAL Jackie Chan website....

http://www.jackie-chan.com/ask_030609.jsp#5


I rest my case...

[Royal Dragon]

I have a documentary on Jackie Chan, so I reveiwed it. In one section he's asked what kind of martial arts has he studied. His reply "Ohhh ahh a little Tae Kwon Do, and some Hapkido, but mostly I study Chinese Kung Fu, it's a White Eybrow, 'dats a Chinese Kung Fu, training was very hard, lots of jumping. When we were young, my teacher make us jump from floor to table, very hard. Sometimes its so hard we think we can't do it, so my teacher hit us with a small stick (Says ow and makes face, then grins), that way we got very good at the Chinese Kung Fu".

He hardly mentions his Hapkido, like it was at best an after thought. However, he goes on to describe his Chinese Kung Fu training, as if it was THE major part of his development. His skill comes from his traditional White Eybrow Kung Fu training in the opera house, end of story.

[crazymaddrunk]

no sh!t JC does kung fu, LOL....and yes, you can tell it's his major style....

but the question still remains, whether he practiced a little or a lot, why go outside Shaolin??? he admits it, and I highly doubt that the Hapkido master is blatantly lying on his page....

[jun_erh]

crazy- i was because of gene chings comment that I started the topic. looking to proceed from there, not reiterate it

[Royal Dragon]

and I highly doubt that the Hapkido master is blatantly lying on his page....

Not that he's lying, but to me it sounds like he's trying to take credit for Chan's skills and abilities. Like it was his "Hapkido" that was responsible for Chan's sucsess, when infact he probably just consulted for a movie, and gave Chan an "Honarary" Black belt so he could ride on his coat tails.

[crazymaddrunk]

I'll send Jackie an email, from his official site, and ask him...get back with you on this, but good point RD....

[Royal Dragon]

Good idea, try to find out how many hours Chan spent under him. To be a "Black Belt" it had better be consistant training over a period of 3-5 years going 3-4 days a week (780 hours) at least.

[dezhen2001]

Jackie couldnt have learned Pak Mei at the opera school, as its known he learned from a Sifu who now resides in the UK. The opera school training was based on classical Peking Opera stuff, so it was more northern and acrobatics based... Its also known that they got in other teachers to teach different skills, southern stuff, but Pak Mei was hard to find in HK at the time anyway.

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

Chan claims a
1. Northern style
2. a Southern style,
and most prominantly, White eybrow learned during his time at the Peking opera school.

Hong Kong was a serous martial melting pot, there is no reason to doubt his claim that a White Eybrow master was there, and taught him traditional Bak Mei along side his classical acrobatics.

It's certianly more credible than the Hapkido Masters implication that "Hapkido" training is the reason for his skills.

[YinYangDagger]

While I tend to agree with you, RD, that JC's skills are predominately Chinese/kung fu, Hapkido is still a pretty good fighting art. Check out these rank requirements...

http://www.koreahapkidofederation.com/rank.php

look at the third degree requirements: "swimming with hand and feet bound" LOL these guys are serious...

[dezhen2001]

RD: where does he claim to have learned Pak Mei at opera school? I would be interested to read about that...

In the interviews i have read its always said he learned it AFTER he left the school :confused:

will ask my friend who knows the pak mei sifu about it more :)

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

It's on both the video I have, and in a book I have. It's not specifically stated he learned it in the opera house, but it's implied. I may be wrong and he learned it after.

Either way, my point that his skill comes from Chinese arts and NOT Hapkido is valid.

[GeneChing]

I think the interesting notion here is that it matters so. When you take some one like Jackie or a private school master at Shaolin, they've obviously studied a lot to get where they are. Naturally, in a global society, that study has gone beyond Chinese styles. It's really what Bruce Lee was on about with JKD. Absorb what is useful.

Sure there is a lot of national pride with a cultural art like kung fu, but at the same time, kung fu now exists in a diverse world community of martial arts. It would be foolish not to examine the others.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with cross training in non Chinese sysems. I myself have incorperated modern methods into my system to fill needs I didn't have traditional sources for.


What I'm saying, is this Hapkido master comes off (to me) like he thinks HIS hapkido training is what made Jakie Chan what he is, when in reality Jackie didn't really do much more than cross train in it for what appears to be a short time. Is skill, abiltiy and raw talent are a product of Chinese martial, and performance arts, not a few Korean Hapkido lessons.

[dre_doggX]

In a book published by Inside Kungfu, about Jackie Chan and his martial art influences, Jakie Chan said he learned Hapkido, and possibly Taekwondo.
for sure, Karate, Wingchun,and Bak Mei. He also said that THEre WHERE "ALL THE SAME THING" excpect for little differences. he said the only art he studied that was different was boxing.


I dont believe boxing is different. I have to agree somewhat, with him a punch is a punch, in Tai chi, and other internal martial arts, we use small frame which makes a more fluid and high energy punch, then most hard styles, but really the only main difference between on system to a next is just the training, principles. the STYLES THEMSELVES ARE ONLY FRAGMENTS OF YOUR IMAGINATION.

THEY DONT EXSIST.

[GeneChing]

Actually, I do believe in styles as structure or as learning tools. Not all of us are born gifted with natural ability. In fact, few of us are. So the different styles serve as stepping stones to a universal - but those stepping stones are undeniable.

[Royal Dragon]

I think Chan said that to be polite. I saw him say the same thing on a TV interview once. I got the impression he knows that TKD, Karate, Hapkido and many other styleisist are fas of his, and he didn't want to alienate any of them. His explanation was very superficial. All styles teach kicks, and punches was about the gist of it.

[johngreenhow]

Just to say I agree with Gene here, styles and the sometimes obscure shapes and structures found within them often serve as much as tools to help us focus on the job in hand as much as they help us defend ourselves.

Like those movements at the beginning of forms, where you bring the fists to your side - a simple, unforgettable movement that prepares you, kind of gives your "muscle memory" a place to start from while you're getting to know your kung fu.

Aaanyway, there are quite a few foreign students in Shaolin with TKD backgrounds that generally seem to be a great asset to them durign their time here. A guy in my school is always teaching eager Chinese students TKD kicks and techniques, which get very quickly absorbed into the sanda or talou that they're supposed to be learning.

As much as there's pride in Shaolin kung fu, there's also an abiding interesting in the martial arts in general, which is why half of them are here in the first place.

John

[GeneChing]

You'd have to have an "abiding interest" just to want to put up with the environment. Either that, or you'd have to be forced, which some of them are, often for disciplinary reasons.

[Hierophant]

Seems like this thread has come back from the depths...

"I noticed Gene mentioned in one of the the main forum threads that TKD has caught on in a big way at Shaolin. Not to be a snob, i don't even know much about TKD although the schools in my area seem to be more like daycare centers than anything else, but what could a shaolin disciple possibly gain from studying it?"

I have seen video footage of Shaolin monks training western boxing (actually, shadowboxing) on a Discovery channel documentary. The comment made by the narrator was that Shaolin seeks to embrace all fighting styles which have any merit. I can only assume this is true for TKD. And as has been said about skill, "It's not the art, it's the artist." It is possible for an individual to train an incomplete art and a non-combat style, and still be a complete fighter with effective combat techniques.

From the article:
" 'When Jackie first came to my school, his kicks were not very good,' Kim recalls. 'Most of his stunts involved rolling and gymnastic techniques from Chinese opera. However, with his flexibility and tumbling experience, Jackie quickly learned Hapkido.' "

If you really want to waste your time debating where Jackie Chan "learned his kicks," I might suggest asking him or his publicist ... And then you can debate about whether or not they are lying.

personally, I'd rather train.

[GeneChing]

Shaolin has always abosrbed other styles. That was a key to its power. The roots are Shaolin. Chan. But the flowers can be all sorts of manifestations. Maybe even Shaolin-Do :p

As for Jackie, he's a movie star, so he's going to take what looks good, no matter the style. Just watch My Stunts (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/movjacchanja.html) - Jackie explains the nature and inspiration of his choreography personally.

[pazman]

when i went to dengfeng this summer, i didn't see any taekwondo, but i wouldn't be surprised if it were rampant throughout the schools in town. besides the international competition, there's two other things that i think people neglect concerning taekwondo. 1) a well-developed teaching method that incorporates modern education and excercise concepts, similar to that of judo. even though the 'art' of taekwondo is pretty diverse from school to school, being an olympic sport AND the national sport of korea tends to inject a bit modernity into the training. as great as traditional chinese martial arts, there has been little headway into developing a teaching method that can work across the board. this is one of the reasons i actually like modern wushu. 2) taekwondo and point-style sparring are great for children, and most of the students at dengfeng are children, so this works perfectly. i think sparring in taekwondo builds some solid foundational skills which apply directly to when the children grow into teenagers and take up sanshou.

[GeneChing]

...but it's kind of hard to see. Generally, the kids only wear the school sweats, not a TKD Poom Do Bok. They only don formal dress for demos and tournaments. So you have to look at what they are training, not what they wear. And with both Tagou and Xiaolong's school, you'll see thousands of kids training in their yards at a time. With all the schools, basic curriculams are founded on repetition, repetition, repetition, so you'll see groups doing kicks, punches and line drills. The TKD blends in with the Sanda if you are looking carefully. You really have to look hard.