iron palm/hard chi gung--seen in the light of western medicine

[tanglang]

I'm sure that similar threads existed allready- and I don't know if any doctors or other physiotherapists are here on board, but I'd really like to hear your medical point of view about iron palm training. When I began with physiotherapy nearly the first dictum I learned was: debit forms the bone. So in other words : intensive strengthening of the quadriceps for example over a long period of time has the effect that the tuberositas tibiae ( insertion-place of the muscle or better of it's tendon at the skin-bone) will be more distinctive.
Also: if you always hit your arms against a wooden dummy, for example, your bones will build out a thicker bone-skin( forgive me, I'm german, but I hope it's called like this in english; also don't want to use too much technical terminology so that laymen can follow up, too..)
But: What about the haematomes and microtraumata that arouse by that each time I do iron-palm training- in the long-time run? Seen from a western perspective physicians would say: this can't be healthy at all and is totally crazy. I'd like to hear some different points of views about that..?

[IronFist]

Guten Tag!

What a good discussion topic!

Also: if you always hit your arms against a wooden dummy, for example, your bones will build out a thicker bone-skin

I've heard that constant shock to a bone, such as hitting a wooden dummy over and over, or jumping up and down (like a gymnast's feet) will cause the bone to become more dense. They say gymnasts have denser foot bones than regular people. So, I'm sure the same thing applies to striking a limb in martial arts.

They say iron palm training also makes the skin more dense.

But, I don't know that much about it so I'll let someone else take over.

IronFist

[PLCrane]

I think the results of such training will depend on how they are practiced. Compressive forces on bone will cause remodeling of the trabeculae - the bone builds itself up along the lines of force. Tensile forces will cause soft tissues to do pretty much the same - tension on ligaments and tendons will cause the collagen fibers to line up along the lines of force, strenthening those tissues. We can get these effects from ordinary exercise.

The problem comes when the practice causes trauma, whether that's microtrauma or gross injuries. Inflammation results in disorganization of the collagen in soft tissues, or scar tissue. This weakens those tissues.

I haven't had any formal iron palm training. Are hematomas and microtrauma really necessary to do the training correctly? I have had some training in iron dummy practice (Shaolin 18 Bronzeman) and we try to avoid causing hematomas. If you're getting bruised, you're hitting it too hard or hitting it wrong. The ****ed thing is made of steel - it'll always win if you try to beat it.

Hematomas under the 'bone skin' as you call it ( in English, I think we say it in Latin - periosteum) will calcify, making unsightly bumps along the edge of the bone. I don't know if there are other bad effects from this.

As I mentioned above, injuries to the soft tissues result in inflammation, disorganization and weakening of those structures. Hematomas in the muscles will occasionally calcify (myositis ossificans). Bone growing in a muscle is a bad thing.

OK, I'm not sure what else to say, except what I've said here a bunch of times - don't injure yourself in training. It sucks.

[PLCrane]

**** the censor!

[Gold Horse Dragon]

The whole purpose to any type of training is to break down some of the area trained and to replace it with stronger tissue...this includes iron palm and wooden man training. Training should not proceed so harshly to cause deep bruising (hematoma/contusion etc). Conditioning must proceed slowly and correctly...like making good wine. During the process, some minor injuires will occur...and this is why Dit Da Jow is used along with proper massage which heal these injuries so that the problems mentioned do not form. As long as one trains slowly and correctly (with good dit da jow and correct massage therapy) in iron palm or on the wooden man, the areas are conditioned properly to take greater punishment without injury and allows the kung fu artist to deliver great force in his strikes.

GHD

[tanglang]

First of all, thx for all your thoughtfull replies..
Well, I have to say that I lumped together some things though beeing aware of it: maybe we should distinguish wooden dummy practicing, iron palm training and hard chi gung a bit, if we go in detail. Sorry, was my fault because I posted the question like this.
Let's take the wooden dummy practicing first. Many martial artists especially if they do sparring often, or soccer-players as well have skin-bones that feel like a mountain range with mounts and valleys because of calcificated haematomas.
Also many martial artists that do iron dummy practicing wrongly have many calcifications. But: even if someone does iron-dummy training very very carefully with the intent to avoid haematomas- how can he be sure that the intensity he chosed for his training is well-dosed? I mean - I didn't try iron-dummy or wooden-dummy training myself so far so I don't know enough about it , too, but maybe there is someone experienced who can tell me how you figure out that point of right intensity, too less or two much intensity? In other words how would a good training look like then?
Then the same about iron-palm training with water-receptacles with pulses swimming in it, for example- the INTENT of it is allready, to cause little cuttings - and a good Dit Da Jow is absolutely necessary then, but you'll HAVE little injuries and inflammations then so still the question is -is it healthy - even if the effort can be seen after a couple of days/weeks doing it- the natural reaction of the body is that it wants to protect itself from more injuries and will built out a more resistant, leatherlike skin because of that ?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

The intensity is different for different students...different strokes for different folks....train to the point of some uncomfortableness...but if you feel moderate to intense pain...you are overtraining. Through proper training, one will toughen the areas uniformly without the 'mountain ranges' you mentioned. Proper training includes dit da jow and massage.
I do not know of the "iron-palm training with water-receptacles with pulses swimming in it "...as far as I know this does not sound like true iron palm training...in fact I have no idea what this is...but if it causes inflamation...it is not good training. Good iron palm training does not cause increased thickness of the skin...but it will result in increased strength and thickness of the muscles, tendons and ligaments...but with suppleness and dexterity and no loss of sensitivity of the skin and no damage to nerves. This applies to Iron Palm, Golden Bell and Wooden Man training.

GHD

[tanglang]

I know another method of iron palm with a linen bag with sand in it- very common method i think. So there shouldn't be any little injuries to be seen? I ask because my sifu went to HK and did some iron palm training, and he HAD little injuries and became a brown thick pastry of warm special dit jow da ( not the fluent oil..)upon the wounds and a compress/cover over his arms.. How do you do it? And never heard of golden bell? Could you describe a bit?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Sand is not really very good for any type of hard chi Kung training from iron palm to golden bell... only the most prominent areas of the hand will be trained as the sand is very compact...the material in the bag must have 'flexibility and movement' so that all areas of the hand get trained and the bag should be light weight to medium weight canvas. Golden Bell is a form of body conditioning...it uses various striking instruments to hit the body in a specific sequence...the result is a body that can better with stand a strike...it also uses herbs, breathing and visualization in the training...just like iron palm.

GHD

[tanglang]

He had to hit the sand-bag with the flat backside and innerside of hand and pull the hand with little pressure on the linnen towards him( don't know how to describe it better in english).
The other method was to thrust his flat hands into peas with the fingertips first (the hand has to make a thrusting-movement like a spear)- so that little cuttings were the consequence.
To iron-bell again: you mean hitting the hole body- arms and legs, stomach( don't want to imagine what happens with the inner organs on long run?) and maybe even head?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

The main areas to train in golden bell are the arms, legs, ribs, chest, shoulder, back and yes the head as well...but a little more carefully :D
Striking into peas should not cause small cuts on the fingers/ hand...but still this is more of an external striking method. I have never heard of drawing the hand back on the linen after a strike...it would cause abraisions. In Black Tiger iron palm a canvas bag is used with mung beans, then soy beans, then iron or steel shot. All areas of the hand are used including the fu jow (tiger claw) along with special clawing and gripping.

GHD

[tanglang]

Even if you do it very very carefully in the beginning your brain has to endure commotions- small ones, big ones- it's simply a question of time untill you'll have the let's call it Mohammed-Ali-effect- you know about the mental problems most of the profi-boxers have after their career..And: I know the scene with the golden bell in the film the 36th chamber of the Shaolin..ahh and sure -I'm an idiot -there the name of the training comes from, right? Are the origins in shaolin temple? But back to this bell-scene:maybe you can train your body to stand this-that's not the question, this is not what I doubt-but I say- seen from a medical point of view: this is not good but injurous for health!!!
I agree that there was a time when it was necessary to strengthen oneself like that- but is it still now? I mean- we don't have to defend our lifes and protect our families with our fists anymore? You might say- well if it's like this what's the sense of martial arts in general then? But I think self-defence is only one aspect of martial arts..and my position is i'll make do without derogating my health..-. so far: convince me of the opposite..?;)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Yes self-defense is only a part on traditional martial arts...and health is the most important part.
GB is done very gradually and gently...the head and neck are not trained nearly as hard as other parts...you have to understand the concepts and training, otherwise you will think of it as you do and think of 'movies' as the real deal...which it is not.
Iron palm and Golden Bell actually work to increase your health, not destroy it.
It is not up to me to convince you and I have no desire to...just share some experience and knowledge with you :)

GHD

[_William_]

I have a question about pai da:

Since you're repeatedly striking all over the torso... isn't at least some of the shock and impact going into your internal organs? I know the objective is to strengthen the body, but won't this eventually begin to damage your organs? Especially the chest, I'd imagine it would begin to disrupt your heart rhythm after a while.

[tanglang]

to get some other people jumping into the discussion..especially some more physicians..:)
Actually you're right in what you said. I don't know really much about iron bell training, but what I know
makes me wonder - as I said: how can it increase my health if what happens is a natural protection-reaction to AVOID more damage? If a body tries to avoid something, this can't be healthy, can it? So how does it work then- now seen from a traditional perspective, I mean what happens as positive influence on my body then, that helps to increase my health? Could you explain?
And: as you allready noticed I have a critical attitude towards this, but only see it with western eyes- the purpose of this thread was also to learn more about the traditional way of looking onto these things..so don't worry if I always have something to cavel around...:)