martial duty....advice please.

[nickle]

hey there all. this will probably be a long post and some of it may be hard to understand since it is based on personal emotion and not on intellectual thought. i would however really appreciate the input from your side. and ill try and make this as clear as i can.

i had an very unpleasant experience today. though i think it may have finally opened my eyes to alot of things i didnt enjoy it very much.

i was talking to a friend of mine(also a martial artist beginner like myself). we were chatting about various things to do with kung fu. one of the main themes in the conversation was stepping in on fights, involving our friends. we were both sortof saying that if our friends were in a fight we would probably step in and either beat the hell out of the guys opposing our friend, or at least try to dissolve the situation. we were also discussing courage and decided that a good definition of it was "doing the right thing even when your scared sh*tless." as its easy to see, this conversation was basically an intellectual discussion, since neither of us have really ever been in fights or had to do anything about fights (other than discuss them)since high school. we both have been in situations where we were ready to fight for our friends but have never had to actually go through with it.

while we were talking a largish bunch of teenagers probably about 17-19 years old were starting to push each other around and point fingers etc in a kind of school boy fashion. ive always been happy to watch fights and since ive started martial arts ive always kind of wished that i would get to see one. not a life or death situation but just a schoolboy fight to see the real thing again (long time since i last did this) as usual there was a lot of machostuff going on and basically it ended in people shaking hands and being pseudo friends.

after i started martial arts i started thinking of myself as a good person who has a deeper understanding of my life and my purpose and so on. i like to think that i would step in for my friends in a bad situation and stand up for them, just because they are people i enjoy. id like to think im a loyal friend and family memeber.

anyway, the next thing we knew about 10 of these teenagers started walking past us about 2-3 meters away. one of them (about 19 years old) started shouting "What the F*ck" and began punching a younger kid (probably 16 maybe even 14 i dont know.) in the back of the head from behind before he knew what was happening The kid started wimpering something about being sorry and i think i may actually have thought:cool i get to see a fight.
the kid fell over after he turned around and got hit a couple of times. two other guys probably about 19-20, big guys, started kicking him on the floor. at this point i started feeling sick. one of the older guys kicked the kid in the face really hard, and i got up and walked away.

so whats the moral of the story? i dont know, but even telling it now a good couple of hours later, i am shaking slightly. at the time i felt like i was going to throw up, i was shaking and felt empty. my friend had the balls to tell a couple of cops we saw a minute or two later. i didnt.Reality sure is different to intellectual discussion.

basically what i want to know, from you, is whether we as martial artists who have, even in my case as a beginner, a better chance in a fight, a real fight, where peoples teeth get kicked in, to step in and try to do something. i know that i do have this duty to my family. i know i have this duty to my friends. but what about a 16 year old probably innocent kid who is going to be beaten up and will probably have to go to the hospital tonight. Even though i know i have these duties to my family and friends i dont know if i would actually step in.

the one thing i dont want to hear from you is "if i was ever in that situation i would have......." i also thought about it, and discussed it, but when a push becomes a kick the face my veiws changed on the spot.

Im not glad that kid got beaten up, but im glad i was there, because i learnt something about myself that i didnt know. i am not a couragous person. and i need to think about why i am doing kung fu. i need to think about what i would have done if that kid had been my 13 year old brother.

thanks for taking the time to read this.

Nickle.

-specialization is for ants-

[briantimps]

Interesting post. Well, were to begin. You are right that there is a big difference between reality and discussion. It's always easy for people to sit down and say how brave or courageous they are, but when the real thing happens infront of you, it's a different story. But don;t feel that just because you didn;t intervene that you are not brave enough to do so.

Discussing fights is a good way for your mind to become accustomed to the idea of fighting. The difference is this... when you are discussing a fight situation, you are discussing what your true beliefs in your mind are about fighting... when you are in the situation, your true beliefs are clouded by fear and emotion. The thing is to remove the cloudyness of the fear, and turn it into clarity. The only way to do that, is to actually stand up to someone or something you are afraid of. You are a courageous person for wanting to intervene, but in that situation, your fear (which was the sickness you experienced) held you back. This is not a bad thing, everyone experiences fear in confrontations, just different degrees of fear, and the way they deal with fear is different.

I would say that the things you are pondering over, were the things I pondered over once... do I have it in me to stand up to the agressor when I need to...

The next time you are in that situation and you feel like you want to intervene... stand up, walk over and as scared and dizzy as you will feel, try stopping it...

Now the thing is, don't do it cause you feel like you need to, do it because you want to. You might get hit, you might get hurt, unlikely anything worse... but it will always take your first one to destroy the fear. If you do intervene, and they walk away or you win the fight, or you even get hurt but did help... the feeling that comes over you is one of an extreme proudness and contentment with yourself... and that is worth getting hurt for. But BE CAIRFULL!!! you must read the situation, don't go now and try get involved in street brawls with dangerous gansters just because they are picking on a local drunk, that is stupidity, not bravery. In that situation tell the police instead. Just remeber, be prepared to get hurt, be prepared to loose the fight, as long as you are doing what you feel is right, then it's usually worth it.

Another thing before I finish my essay... if he hits you, you can sue him for assault, if you hit him it was in self defence, and if he walks away, no one gets hurt... let him know this, it will almost always end up in him walking away...

Hope this helps some.

One must learn how to fight, in order to learn how not to fight!

[SevenStar]

I guess that ultimately depends on the person. If you are the type that will stand up for those in need, then you just are. that has nothing to do with martial duty. I had an experience with this last night. I heard some yelling outside my apartment window, and when I looked outside, I saw a woman and a man arguing. My girlfriend and I watched to see what was going on. After about7 minutes of bickerign, he threw her onto the ground. Instinctively, I ran down the steps and outside after him. My girlfriend yelled to him out the window that she was gonna call the cops, which startled him. by the time i got to the woman, the man had already run to his truck. He drove up and down the street watching us, but never tried anything else. The woman informed me that the man was her husband and that she had recently left him because he was always getting drunk and acting crazy. I don't think my martial arts training made me run out there, though. That's just the type of person I am. I could have just as easily sat there and done nothing, but that's not my personality

"Civilize the mind, make savage the body."

[rogue]

Someone beats on a kid, I get involved fast. Disputes between a couple I just call the cops.

[Budokan]

Sitting around on your a$$ while a younger kid gets beat up, not only says a lot about what you've failed to learn as a martial artist, but what you've failed to learn as a human being.

You know why you felt sick when you saw this kid get kicked in the face? That was your conscience speaking. Next time listen to it and get off your tail.

K. Mark Hoover

[Kaitain(UK)]

if the ten guys turned around and battered him as well then I don't see the benefit - I wouldn't be proud of myself if I didn't stop it.

better to involve the police

that sick feeling was adrenalin

brave words are easy - coping with adrenalin dumps is very hard - go read the longer version of this thread on the main forum.

We're all only human - we can ascribe to high minded principles but when the situation just leaps out at you it's almost impossible to manage the adrenalin surge that hits you

I'll reiterate - read 'Watch My Back' by Geoff Thompson for a proper insight into these feelings

"A 'superior' martial artist is one who is adept at applying/internalizing the entire philosophy of his system (doctrine, strategy, tactic)." - Scott Sonnon

[Budokan]

1.Get the police. 2.Do something about it yourself. 3.Call for help. But DO something other than watch and then feel bad about it afterwards.

I mean, if you're going to carry around the responsibility of being a MA then you should act like one. This scenario as explained does not exculpate his non-action in anyway. He stood by and watched. That is unacceptable by any definition or standard.

And I won't buy into the argument that he may be beat up by the other guys in the meantime--so what's the use? That sounds too much like making excuses after the fact...

K. Mark Hoover

[nickle]

but i sortof agree with you budokan... it was my concience speaking, and i should have helped the kid out, the fact that i didnt however doesnt mean i have failed to learn something as a human being... i means that i didnt know what to do. i do now know what i need to do. something anything would have sufficed, when i think about it now, there are a lot of options in a situation like that, i can call the cops, takes too much time (esp in south africa) or i can try get security or something (also too much time) or i can in someway intervene... this of course doesnt mean i have to pull out my biggest weapon (fist or gun or whatever) and start pounding... i could for example have just started shouting as loud as i could.. that would have distracted the attackers, brought any nearby security to the scene and given a chance to the victim to get away. thats the safer option for me... the safer option for the victim is for me to start punching and kicking the nearest guy untill he is on the floor bleeding and crying, this may intimidate the others or at least stop them for long enough for the victim to escape or something else to happen BUT... i dont want to get hurt anymore than i want to see someone else get hurt...I know this may sound a bit weak but you have to realise where im coming from...South Africa...i hear about friends of mine getting shot at or hijacked or something at least once every six months. two of my friends have in the last year been hijacked and held at gunpoint and another was shot BECAUSE HE GOT INVOLVED IN A LITTLE BAR BRAWL. realise this, and youll realise that for me getting a couple of bad bruises in a street fight is not a reality for me, being shot or knifed in a mall by 18-20 year old KIDS is... im olny 21 and i dont feel like getting shot.

i do however agree with you... i SHOULD have done something, anything, and it is a waste of time to feel bad about it afterwards... read a couple of posts up... someone (thanks to them) said that the first time i step in on this type of thing ill lose my fear... i will do that next time.. even if i step in and say...hey guys whats up.

thanks for the constructive critisim, looking forwards to more.

-specialization is for ants-

[Drunken Monkey]

Tigermaster's right, you can tell the whole world you are the bravest, but when push comes to shove you just stand there and watch. Now I'm not saying that you acted like a wimp, you just didnt feel you needed to jump in.

About jumping in, if it was family, friends and they were out numbered, I would have to jump in. But if it was just an aquantice, it would have to depend on the circumstances, but chances are not.

Just do what you feel is the right thing to do(even if you do lose the fight) and you wont feel sick.

talk to ya again!