CMA in the battlefield

[Juggler]

Inspired by Chinese and Korean Army post.

How would CMA do in the modern battlefield? The purpose of the infantry is to close in toward an enemy position and then take them over, right? This may involve copious amounts of hand-to-hand combat, especially in urban terrain. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

So how would a CMA infantryman fare against ordinarily-trained, flak-jacket clad, knife and bayonet wielding infantrymen?

[Dragon Warrior]

i dont think that what style someone would know in that situation would really matter. There would be guns involved and all kinds of bombs and like that. The amout of fighting that would actually be one on one with no weapons would be way less than 1%.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[count]

You might check out KungFu Magazines January-February issues for training and techniques the military and the police get from Baji, Shuai Chaio and even Tai Chi Chuan If you are really interested. Good hand to hand techniques and knife too. I suppose like any life and death combat situation a Chinese martial artist would either live or die. Is the point of your question whether any martial art is superior for warfare? I don't think you'll find any answers there.ü

[Highlander]

In a one to one it is hard to say how CMA would fair, there are too many variables. But if you look at a larger picture you will see that the principles and theories of CMA apply. By that I mean look at the army as an entity. When you see the battle strategy it is the same as in single combat. Find the weakness in the defenses and attack it. When you've attacked, keep the pressure on until they yield. Divert their attention to one area while attacking another. Stategically target vital areas. Strike quickly without telegraphing your intentions. Coordinate all aspects of your army to function as one unit. Be mobile. Position before attacking. Attack their supporting structures. Intercept their attacks. Etc. Etc. Etc. The list goes on and on.

The principles and theories of CMA also apply to non physical attacks. Try using some of these things the next time you have a verbal argument. They work well. After all the study of CMA is a study of conflict and understanding the nature of agression.

[Fu-Pow]

Choy Lay Fut WAS designed for the battle field. Quick to learn and lots of power.

Fu-Pow

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my classmate just became a cop a couple months ago. he says that people try to get away or fight arrest more than you think and he has ample opportunity to test what he learns. he always has stories of what strikes or techniques he has deployed on someone. it's kind of mean i guess .. but i don't think i would be any different in his situation. i mean your job is to subdue this guy by force when he resists, i would see this as a good learning opportunity as well.

where's my beer?

[frosh2786]

...the most useful martial art for urban combat would be, in my humble opinion, ninjitsu. not for fighting but stealth would be REALLY helpful.

[Tigerstyle]

Are you talking about infantrymen with guns vs. CMA soldiers, or does everyone have hand to hand only weapons? Without guns, I'm sure the infantrymen would be at a disadvantage, because most of their training would be with firearms, and the HTH stuff is usually a last resort kind of thing. If you meant Gung Fu vs. Gun Fu, well... that should be obvious.

[chokeyouout]

http://www.ashidakim.com/photo.gif

The deadliest ninja never to fight in the world.

[dunbarj01]

I don't think that for many modern armies CMA has a place simply because it is too demanding in termsof time and money to train every infantryman to a fighting standard. This is true when the use of very sophisticated weaponary is likely to mean very high mortality rates. I do think that CMA have a place in the training regimes of more specialized soldiers such as the military police and special forces.

[frosh2786]

i dont mean cheezy 80s B movie ninjas, but real ninjitsu involves stealth as well...so it would be useful for avoiding conflict and not being seen until you could pick off an enemy

[dunbarj01]

Hey Frosh,

Does Ninjitsu really exist??? Men run about in black gear, climb walls etc and they're probably quite good at it. I'm just questioning the historical legitimacy. I'm ignorant on the subject so I rely on my Japanese spouse who tells me that it's highly dubious. I'm not trying to be a smartarse but would appreciate some feedback.:)

Perhaps this should be on a separate post...

Cheers,

[frosh2786]

talk to some taijutsu practitioners tehy wouldnt like that very much lol. bujinkan.com i think has some info. it does exist that much i know.

[Vankuen]

Your answers lie in a book by Myomato Mushashi, called "Book of five rings". It might do you well to read Sun Tzu's "The art of war" as well.

"From one thing know ten thousand things" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[Grays Anatomy]

I'm not so sure that there really is all that much hand to hand combat on the modern battlefield.

Most conflicts today (and you can probably go back as far as WW I) present a conflict of distance weapons - the gun or rifle. Most of the accounts I have read identify very few real hand-to-hand situations.

I'm not saying they didn't exist at all just that they are fairly rare.

"Remember, that amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic."

[dunbarj01]

I've heard that the battle for Stalingrad (WWII) involved a good deal of hand to hand. But this might have been a result of very poor logistics and lack of ammunition on the part of the Germans coupled with a dense urban environment.

[Kung Lek]

ok, so you're in a war, and you have been trained in martial arts, and your apc gets smoked by a hostile atm.

This is the truth of the battlefield today.

500 years ago and living as an accomplished swordsmen and weapons master, well now you're talkin :D

Empty hand arts apply in hand to hand combat sometimes against multiple opponents (which many systems of kung fu place emphasis on) which does not occur on a "battlefield".

Special units that undertake covert operations are made up of trained indivduals who are taught effective methods of killing with stealth. Many of the techniques they learn are derived from personal best training (which gets them through the initiation into these squads more often than not) and of course from the military itself.

The techniques that members learn from the military are derived from many styles of martial arts and melded and adapted and as well some squads are trained in "seminar" fashion throughout their membership in that squad, unit or otherwise. Anyway, blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

Martial arts practice today , in the effort to achieve Kung fu in them, is done by people like you and me and even soldiers on their own time and even this old lady of 80 in my hometown who was rcently awarded her 2nd degree black belt in tae kwon do. No kidding, she is really feisty and busts boards as good as many. hahahaha.

Be happy that it is more likely that you will never find out if your martial arts "work" on a field of battle.

peace

Kung Lek

it's called lien bu chuan and chinese commandos trained the form (actually a complete, basic system) extensively during WWII. do the research.

-ironvest-

[Kung Lek]

Lien Bo Chuan, or "Linked stepping fist" is a set that was taught to the chinese army in 1935 by Master Kyu Yu Cheong.

KYC was one of the very well known 13 champions.

KYC was trained in tradtional Northern Sil Lum kung fu and fused his knowledge of Muslim fighting arts to create the system of Bak Sil Lum of which Lien Bo Chuan is the preliminary form that introduces the student to the basics of north shaolin Kung fu hand techniques.

I have read quite recently, possibly on this forum, but coulda been somewhere else that it is thought that Lien Bo is the remnant of North Shaolin Dragon. It does contain several Crane techniques though, which is why this tidbit sparked my curiosity. It tastes more crane like overall to me anyway.

This really peaked my curiosity and I would like to find more info on this aspect of Lien Bo.

Lien Bo has only 3 hook sweeps, two stomp kicks (which are hidden to the beginner) and no other kicks in it at all. It is not hard to learn, but it certainly contains many subtleties that make it "good gear" for empty hand knowledge and skills.

peace

Kung Lek

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 03-22-01 at 12:56 AM.]