Question for grapplers

[Ray Pina]

What do you use to control body parts for your locking? We like to use elbows, believing the hand (fingers) used in Hapkido and Aikido are inferior?

[Shaolin-Do]

Fingerlocks are good, just hard to do sometimes without breaking somebody. :)
Elbow locks work great, shoulder locks when standing....


Can someone give an example of a spine lock please?

[truewrestler]

EvolutionFist, I'm not sure if I understand your question exactly... you may want to clarify.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do

Can someone give an example of a spine lock please?

the twister.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
What do you use to control body parts for your locking? We like to use elbows, believing the hand (fingers) used in Hapkido and Aikido are inferior?

Not quite sure what you're asking... Are you wondering What area of the arm we control in order to apply any arm attack?

[Ray Pina]

Basically, the style I study never uses our hands to hold you or lock you, believing this to be weak for a couple of reasons. One, it's usually your thumb holding the whole thing in place, and two, you're using two hands to usually control one ... bad trade.

We like to use elbows.

Simply put, all our locks can be applied with boxing gloves.

[SevenStar]

We control the elbow, but possibly for different reasons. Let's say you are in my guard. If I am controlling your wrist, your arm still has too much motion, and you will be able to easily tuck your elbows in and start your guard pass. by controlling your elbows, I make passing more difficult. It also allows me to better stabilize your arm for locks and such.

If I'm in sidemount and going for an armbar, for example, I want to control at the elbow, once again to restrict your movement of that arm. ultimately though, after the lock is in progress, I want to switch back to wrist control.


I'm not really worried about the weakness of the openening between the thumb and forefinger because I usually control the joint by either over or underhooking, not by simply grabbing.

That applies to the legs and neck as well.

[Shaolin-Do]

7* could you describe the twister please?

[Chang Style Novice]

I think evolutionfist is asking something else, to wit:

Do you apply a lock with your hand, your elbow, your armpit, or what? I think he is NOT interested in what body parts are locked, but in what parts do the locking. If I'm reading him right, his concern is that hands and fingers are too weak to effectively immobilize a limb, and therefore using your entire arm to lock an opponent's joint is more reliable.

This strikes me as sensible, but only half the picture - hands have greater range, range of motion, and speed that elbows and armpits. You're therefore much more likely to get that grab that is the first part of a lock with your hand than anything else.

[Shaolin-Do]

In Dr. Yangs comprehensive applications of Shaolin Chin na, often times he uses the hands to firsy apply the lock, then armpit, elbow, even his waist to maintain the lock.

[shaolinboxer]

How do you apply locks with you elbows? You mean leveraging an armbar?

[Chang Style Novice]

You'd use your elbow as a fulcrum for the trapped limb and apply leverage with the opposite forearm, perhaps. I think most judo and bjj bent armlocks (kimura, americana, paintbrush, and so on) do something like this.

[truewrestler]

Well, I guess the answer would be "it depends". Depends on the lock, preference, position, clothing, and opponent's reaction/resistence.

In grappling you usually want to have a limb locked in such a way that you can use your whole body to twist or hyperextend a joint.

The advantage of using a skeletal hold (crook of elbow for example) to hook an arm is that you can then use a larger muscle group (back muscles) without smaller muscle groups tiring (muscles of arm). This makes it much easier to extend someone's arm for an armbar for example... your entire back muscles against their bicep. Once an armbaris extended though many people will grab the the wrist for more control. I generally use the blade of my forearm/wrist to pin their wrist against my chest as I apply pressure with my hips but that can change depending on their position (on their back, stacking, etc) and what counters they might be working on.

Also remember, the closer your arms are to you and elbows in... the stronger they are (leverage). If you have your arms in close to you in a lock the more your larger muscles groups can be used.

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/kimura/

http://bjj.org/techniques/thetechniques/gustavoArmBar/

http://bjj.org/techniques/jen/tech13/

http://bjj.org/techniques/

[Ray Pina]

"If I am controlling your wrist, your arm still has too much motion, and you will be able to easily tuck your elbows in and start your guard pass. by controlling your elbows, I make passing more difficult. It also allows me to better stabilize your arm for locks and such. ":D

ChangeSTyle, you're exactly right by what I meant by the way and how we use it.

I never reach out with my hand to grab you. I know it's fast and mobile, but I'd rather hit you and close the distance. From there, sometimes locks happen.

[Merryprankster]

We use our whole bodies. Hands per se, have very little to do with it.

[truewrestler]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Merryprankster (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=concise)

:p

[Ray Pina]

"you can then use a larger muscle group " -- exactly

"We use our whole bodies" -- Beatiful! I'm not there yet on the ground.

Truewrestler: second photo of second link: What keeps the guy in the white gi from pounding his foe with his left? All he needs is to buy himself a second.

Though I know it's only an example, this is often the problem I find when playing with grapplers.

[Merryprankster]

EF,

Two things--

One, the bottom man is manipulating his balance forward as he applies the armbar (hard to see).

Secondly, he's moving his hips around for the armbar as he's doing all that, and the legs are tight. You don't have to release any pressure to do that lock--hard to imagine, but true! It's all about the angles.

This makes it hard to punch with any real power. You might get popped in the face if you don't control their balance...but more importantly, they can back out of the armbar....

Anyway, if you're that close (ie, on the ground), you're going to get popped. But if you spend time trying to whack me in the face when you're offbalance and about to get armlocked, you'll probably get a hyperextended elbow. When you're tilted off to one side, hitting me is just going to be a love tap.

[Ray Pina]

I understand those things, and these scenarios can always turn into a "but he can do this" debate back and forth.

I know what you are saying is true. Just in that photo I don't think he has THAT GREAT of position where the other guy couldn't pull his right arm back a bit and lean in to fight for it (elbow power back) and as for the left, this is where short power comes into big play. I am extremely confident that I can deliver more than a love tap from that position without moving that arm at all to load.

Hsing-I uses Bear and Eagle power. It can deliever quite a blow with the heal of the palm from contact. That much space is actually excessive. It can also be manipulated to deliver knuckle strikes as well, but palm is the standard.

Either way though, thanks. I know when it comes to grappling at this point I could gain from your experience.

[Merryprankster]

Well, you're right that it's not that great of a position. But if he were doing it so it WAS a great position, you wouldn't be able to see what he was doing--it'd just look like he was pivoting around his body and VIOLA! AN ARMLOCK!

If you feel you can get power from there-ok. Who am I to say? All the power generation I know comes from the torso and proper structure, and proper armbars take away both torso movement and structure.

[Chang Style Novice]

In the spirit of "but if he did that then I'd do this" I wonder if the beginning of a decent defence for that crossbody armbar would be to use the left hand to aid the right elbow in bending, ala movement two of "part the bird's tail" from taichi.

[Black Jack]

I would not want to wipe out any one method of securement for a lock as they are often pieces of the whole unit.

The silat that I am learning is a aggressive style which is heavy on grappling and counter grappling with its Buah Kunci Mati/Dead Locks being a prime element. It is interesting stuff for me as I have not had a chance before to get into a system that has this much material on going in flat out and breaking.

It all depends on what is the purpose of the lock, right?

Meaning is it a compound lock where you secure up not one but two or maybe three seams of the body or is it really a ballistic break or just a overbearing type hold. Plus as I have been taught, and in my viewpoint, and in my current training you should often incorporate striking before any attempt at setting in for a break or hold as a finnishing move or control.

Cheers

[Ray Pina]

No. 1 though is free the hostage! I put more emphasis on pulling that right arm back and in and leaning in a bit to get some weight on him instead of being turned.

And you are right, it's certainly not the best hitting postion, but short power comes in very useful in these types of situations. I would say Bear and Eagle short power and Tiger Head ( a defensive-offensive position) is the most valuable thing I've ever learned. I couldn't put a price tag on it. If you ever have a Hsing-I seminar in your area, I would try to talk to the guy about showing you these two things. VERY USEFUL for any art.

[Shaolin-Do]

BJ - what type of silat are you taking?

[Stranger]

BJ - what type of silat are you taking?

The man studies Gayong Silat.

PS You can lock almost anywhere with almost anything.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I would say Bear and Eagle short power and Tiger Head ( a defensive-offensive position) is the most valuable thing I've ever learned.

Could you describe these?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
7* could you describe the twister please?

Go to subfighter.com - in the search box, type in twister. They have a vid of it. It's a greco roman technique that's been popularized by submission fighter Eddie Bravo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
In the spirit of "but if he did that then I'd do this" I wonder if the beginning of a decent defence for that crossbody armbar would be to use the left hand to aid the right elbow in bending, ala movement two of "part the bird's tail" from taichi.

As in grabbing the arm? If so, then yes. But, the guy barring you will either use his foot (the one that's not across your torso) to push that hand off, or transition for the armbar to a bicep crush.

[Chang Style Novice]

No, I meant pushing your right hand into the crook of your left elbow, thereby doubling the strength being used to persuade the bend to occur. Naturally, you'd want to do this before he shifts his leg over your head. And there'd have to be more followup, but I'm not sure what it would be.

[truewrestler]

It's a greco roman technique that's been popularized by submission fighter Eddie Bravo. It is a wrestling technique he learned in highschool (folkstyle wrestling, common move). I don't think it is as common in greco roman and freestyle wrestling. In at least america it is called the guillotine but since there is already a choke in submission wrestling with that name so his bjj coach named it the "twister".

[LeeCasebolt]

I don't think it is as common in greco roman and freestyle wrestling.

I've never seen it in freestyle That doesn't mean it's not there - it's not like I've seen every freestyle match ever - but it seems very different from the turns usually used in freestyle.

The twister would be illegal in greco - all that nasty leg contact, doncha know.

My assumption is that it's an American folkstyle (dare I say, "catch as catch can"?) technique, adeptly modified to the submission wrestling arena.

[truewrestler]

The twister would be illegal in greco - all that nasty leg contact, doncha know. (slaps self) :p