This is why i'm begining to dislike Royce ,Rorion and Helio

[chokeyouout]

I give long respect to helio for revolutionizing jiu jitsu into it's current state of popularity.But his sons talk so much crap,tries to trademark the Gracie name,charges way to much to train and hasen't put out any champion fighters since I don't know when.

Here's one interview with Royce.You tell me what you think.

Royce Gracie Interview 10/22/97
by Mike Ely
Interview originally
published on
The New Full Contact
Mike Ely: What type of controversies are there in the field of jiu-jitsu instruction?

Royce Gracie: Controversy? There is not much controversey in teaching jiu-jitsu. We believe there are no bad students, there are bad teachers that teach martial arts that do not work, but no bad students.

ME: What about the controversies of No-Holds-Barred fighting?

RG: I believe all of the controversies come from boxing. No one has ever died in no rules fights, and people die in boxing every year. There are big boxing promoters that try to give no-rules fighting a bad reputation by saying people are going to be killed, people aren't going to die because this sport is much safer than boxing.

ME: I've been hearing rumors that you have challenged Maurice Smith to fight in Japan at UFC XVI in December, is that true?

RG: Yes

ME: Really! but Randy Couture is set to fight Smith in December, is SEG going to give you the fight instead of him?

RG: We're still negotiating, I want to fight him in December but that may not be possible.

ME: Will the fight have no time limit?

RG: I do not want there to be a time limit but we are still negotiating.

ME: Do you feel that you are a better fighter now that you have taken so much time off?

RG: Yes I do, I've been training hard, and working on the technique.

ME: When you do comeback are you going to continue to wear a gi?

RG: I will make that decision when the time comes for the fight, I'm not sure right now.

ME: What happened to Vitor Belfort at UFC 15? Everyone had such high expectations for him.

RG: He did too much steroids.

ME: Too much Steroids?!?

RG: Yeah, milk does your body good but not that good! Guys don't get that big that quickly from eating fruit and drinking milk, especially at 19-20 years old. Steroids will do real good for you in a fight for a real short amount of time, but you saw what happens after a couple of minutes, you get tired and lose. The technique is more important than strength

ME: Do you think Belfort will be back?

RG: Yes, he will probably be back.

ME: Do you think Belfort will ever do as good as he did in his first couple of fights?

RG: He looked the same in his last fight as he did in his all of his other fights. He never really fought anyone.

ME: What happened to Carlos Barreto? He's seemed really good in his fights outside of the UFC.

RG: Those guys don't have the technique that it takes to win. They come in and they talk real tough and act real tough, but they win one lose one, win two lose one, win three lose one. The Gracies don't go into fights and win some lose some we win them all because we have the technique.

ME: I've heard a rumor that there is a feud between your side of the family with Carlson, is that true?

RG: Carlson...Carlson sells black belts, you go to his school and you pay for the lessons and eventually he gives you your black belt. That is the problem with Carlson. At our school we make you work for your black belt, and it takes time to get it.

ME: When you said Carlson's fighters don't have the technique it takes to win, does that include Renzo and Ralph?

RG: No, Renzo and Ralf are Gracies, they don't lose.

ME: Can you tell me what happened at Pentagon Combat in Brazil.

RG: The lights started to go out and when Renzo would get close to the fence the other fighters friends started to kick his fingers and his head. Some gun shots went off but nobody got hurt.

ME: I heard Ryan was in some fights in the audience at Pentagon Combat, do you know if he will be competing anytime soon?

RG: I haven't talked to Ryan for about six month's so I don't know.

ME: I've also been hearing rumors that Marco Ruas challenged Rickson and Rickson declined, is that true?

RG: That's not a challenge. If you want to challenge someone get some promoters and put your money where your mouth is. Everyone challenges Rickson but they don't plan to fight him. You have to talk to promoters if you want to fight someone. I don't know if Rickson will fight Marco Ruas?

ME: Well thank you for returning my call and taking the time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it.

RG: No problem, take care.

[chokeyouout]

With regard to the large number of new Jiu-Jitsu academies and instructional videos that are appearing everywhere, I consider myself very flattered by the great acceptance of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the United States. However, as the person who caused the major impact in the Jiu-Jitsu that is now practiced all over Brazil and increasingly throughout the world, I want to make clear to the practitioners worldwide that the only method of Jiu-Jitsu teaching that I endorse is the one practiced by my sons Rorion, Relson, Rickson, Rolker, Royler, and Royce.
Outside of my sons, the only certified instructors that I endorse are those who have earned their instructor certification from me or my son Rorion at the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy® in Torrance, CA. Rorion or I are available to examine anyone's ability as an instructor of Jiu-Jitsu as well as clarify our standards.

The purpose of this declaration is to make sure my work and the effort of my sons does not provide an opportunity for unqualified people to fool the public by misrepresenting their ability as instructors. We do not want anyone to mislead the good faith of those who are interested in studying under the teaching methods of the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy.

Students can practice Jiu-Jitsu whenever they want, wherever they want, with whomever they want. That is none of my business. But I feel professionally and ethically obligated to ensure that those students who want to train under my teaching methods know that I only endorse my sons and that my eldest son Rorion has my blessing to select and prepare the instructors that will carry on the tradition and principles that I have spent my entire life upholding.

If you wish to compare our teaching methods with any other methods, please be my guest for any introductory class at the Gracie Academy. You will then have a good point of reference to make your own comparison and I am confident that you will appreciate our higher standards.

My fondest regards to our students and friends throughout the world,


Helio Gracie

[GreyMystik]

ok so what exactly don't you like about Helio's letter again?

[Merryprankster]

Grey Mystik... don't even WANT to get into all this... there are all sorts of politics involved in the Gracie family, and BJJ in general. I will tell you this... I have heard many reports that Rorian Gracie is a shrewd businessman but none too ethical. He has managed to legally exclude anyone but his school/association from using the term "Gracie Jiu Jitsu." For a bit, I understand that even other members of his family that were using the name "Gracie" in any of their advertising were being taken to court. He charges high prices at the Torrance Academy and to be affiliated with him. There are several stories about the low quality of Torrance Academy/Rorian affiliate students. That letter by itself is no big deal. Taken into account with all the above info, it's a bit more provocative.

All of the above is third, fourth and fifth hand info. I have NO DIRECT EXPERIENCE with any Gracie except Renzo Gracie students, and I can say point blank that they are the real deal, which speaks to his teaching ability. They have been legitimate guys who work to compete very very hard and leave it all on the mat.

That's just the surface of the situation, to give you an example. There is bad blood between many schools and it has to do with personal enmity between the instructors. Some members of the Gracie Family do not get along with each other, apparently. Some BJJ blackbelts don't get along with each other, and it all spills over. The politics are intricate and boundless and I don't pretend to understand any of it.

[chokeyouout]

The purpose of this declaration is to make sure my work and the effort of my sons does not provide an opportunity for unqualified people to fool the public by misrepresenting their ability as instructors.


What champions has rorion or Royce produced?
How many have the Machados produced.A whole bunch.They tried to sue Ralph Gracie there own relative for crying out loud just for the use of his own last name on the gym doors.Ralph has produced the likes of the Camarillo brothers and Cameron Earle just to name a few.


If your gonna complain about the amount of jiu jitsu being taught in the us without the consent of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy® then you should at least have some type of substantial proof that what your teaching is superior.Basically for me, all I see is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
in Helio's eyes.

Rorion has been teaching for a very long time in Torrance California.There is alot of other teachers in L.A. that in a quarter of the time Rorion has been teaching have trained N.H.B. and sport B.J.J. champions.

They won't recognize any other BJJ nor will they train with anyone outside the family.

Helio is just attempting to Market himself and his sons with faulty logic.What they teach could possibly be considered not cutting edge or even outdated techniques due to their greed to corner the BJJ market and their unwillingness to train outside the Gracie academy.

I would rather train with,Cleber,Fabio,Rey,Chris Brennan,Rodrigo,Andre,John Lewis to name a few.Don't be fooled by this "pure " jiu jitsu garbage.Dealing with something as multidimensional as BJJ it will evolve in many ways.Helio just wants to make all the money he can withoput giving credit to anyone outside his association.

[jjj]

chokeyouout-

You should get down on your knees and thank the Gracies(tm), if it wasn't for them you would stll be practicing your one-finger knockouts on median #69! You would still laugh when someone suggests that a grappler might be able to get you on the ground before you did your double spinning chi-enhanced llama kung fu back kick! If you don't like them then don't train with them but Rorion took risks and spent $ bringing BJJ to the states, so he should profit from it, whats wrong with that?

There is only one god, and his name is Rickson.

[Tora]

ChokeYO.

Please edit out the $$$$$$ thing. I read your first post and wanted to read the letter but it’s a pain in the ass to read with the thread all stretched out. Thanks.

[chokeyouout]

Look bro.Rorion didn't bring my instructor to the U.S.Respect is given for awakening the martial arts world up to jiu jitsu.Great, kudos to Rorion.Apparently your not seeing the details of what they are incinuating through their marketing techniques.If you don't get belted by one of Helio's certified instructors then you aren't learning true jiu jitsu.I think thats crap.So, if Carlson,Top Team,Barra or Humatia belts me it's not legit?Give me a break.This guy thinks he's Al Davis.His invincable sons have been beaten in sport and N.H.B. and now he want's recognition for being the truest to form style of self defense.Whatever.Oh one last thing,I have never ever practiced any form of chi spinning death touch hip hop kido death touch in my life.I was raised a kickboxer.

[Dragon Warrior]

This is the kind of bull i hope to stay away from in my life of martial arts.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[jjj]

chokeyouout-

The imposters to not teach true pure Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(tm), they do not drink from the pure water of Heilo Gracie and his sons. They did not go into the UFC and wipe the floor with traditionalists now did they? I liken it to having a Sam Adams vs a Budweiser, the bud is cheaper, more accessible and they both get you drunk if you drink enough right? But we all know Budweiser != Sam Adams. Also there is a big difference between chi spinning death touch hip hop kido death touch and a double spinning chi-enhanced llama kung fu back kick (Dragon Warrior can explain the details). :D

There is only one god, and his name is Rickson.

Chokeyouout. Don't bash Royce. Don't bash Helio. Rorion is the one you want to bash. It is ONLY Rorion that is the ***. Helio just likes to speak highly of Rorion becuase Rorion is his oldest son. You know that oldest son thing?

Rorion is a beotch to sue Carley Gracie. Rorion is a beotch to get on the Machados for using the name "Gracie". The Machados were trained at Barra and they were allowed to use the name "Gracie" but Rorion gor up their asses.

Your mad at Royce for him calling Vitor a steroid freak? Well i hate to break it to you but Vitor IS a steriod freak!!!!!! Don't be mad at Royce for bashing Carlson. Royce has been brain washed by Rorion. It is Rorions fault.

Royce is not bad. Royce just hangs around with Rorion. Royce is not the one doing the suing. You say that Royce and Rorians school hasn't produced champions? What about Chris Brennan a UFC champion? Was it Marco Ruas that made Chris good? I don't know. You'd have to ask him at ITG.

And one more thing. Chokeyouout: How do you make that "R" enclosed in a circle after "Gracie Jiujitus" (R). How did you make the R enclosed in the circle? That is so funny. I need to learn how to make that (R) so Rorion dosn't sue me for typing GRACIE JIUJITSU (R)

[Ryu]

Choke,
was this before or after both Renzo's and Royce's losses to Kaz?

I know what you mean. I really respect all Helio and sons have done for the martial arts world, but it just goes to show that there should be two sides of MA. Physical and some kind of spiritual balance. A lot of Royce's fans are now getting tired of his constant well.....it's almost whinning now.

Jeez, not admitting defeat is just an ego thing. I've lost matches before. BJJ blues can really eat you up LOL

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura

Wouldn't this "GRACIE (R)" thing make a good episode of Judge Judy? You'd have Rorion vs. Carley. They would start cusing and Judge Judy would start pounding her hammer. That would be the best Judge Judy episode ever.

[GinSueDog]

Then you should thank the Gracies from saving you the pain of Tae Bo :D-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[chokeyouout]

The letter from Helio was sent supposedly a few days ago.After reading what I wrote I feel I might be painting the wrong picture.There are so many talented BJJ teachers that are out there it's almost impossible to get bad instruction.Royler is a world champ along with Rickson.Is Rorion's association responsible for this?I don't think so.Last Rickson tourney I went to at UCLA he was charging 150 for every gi patch that wasn't affiliated with Ricksons association.I had 5 on my gi at the time.Thats similar to what Michael Shumacher gets for patches on his Ferarri suit.Not really but you get the point.I love this sport,martial art or whatever you wanna call it.But I will call things as I see them.

[chokeyouout]

I'm not affected by the fact that Royce said Vitor was roided.He's not the only one on the team that is.Carlson selling Black Belts is what got me.I guess Wallid Ishmael must have bought the deluxe model black belt in order to choke Royce's ass out.Sperry beat Royler.Enough said.I gonna go drive some iron.Peace.

[Tigerstyle]

Choke,
I think I've read that letter by Helio Gracie® before, but it was longer than a few days ago. While I was reading it today, it was coming back to me in a fuzzy kind of memory where I was reading it in a magazine or something. Seems like I read it months ago, but I can't be sure. Maybe just deja vu (sp?). Maybe just deja vu (sp?) :).

Kodukan,
you can copy the ® right out off the screen (highlight the ® , and select Edit>Copy from the top menu or hit the Ctrl and V keys) and paste it in your responses. The HTML way to type it would be: & r e g ; (typed together with no spaces between).

[This message was edited by Tigerstyle on 03-22-01 at 03:56 PM.]

[This message was edited by Tigerstyle on 03-22-01 at 03:57 PM.]

[rogue]

Crap, my bookmarks are screwed up again between the Mousels and KFO.

[YoungForest]

don't you know that martial arts these days is all about $$$

[chokeyouout]

It's all about the fetti.It's a shame.