Did Yip Man Use The Phoenix Eye Fist ?

[FIRE HAWK]

Yip Mans student Lun Gai uses the Phoenix eye fist and the Phoenix Eye Fist is also shown in K.T. Chao s books Secret Techniques of Wing Chun it seems K.T. Chao uses the Phoenix Eye Fist so did he learn it from his sifu Yip Man ? So I wonder if Yip Man used the Phoenix Eye Fist ?

[ntc]

The Sil Lim Tao form taught to a lot of his students by Yip Man did contain the Phoenix Eye punch. However, since then, the punch has been left out from the form and only taught to senior students because of skill maturity. A phoenix eye punch incorrectly delivered can easily result in really serious injury to either the opponent or the practitioner himself. And so these days, it will not come as a surprise to see this technique withheld a bit.

[Phil Redmond]

It was taught to William Cheung by Yip Man and it is still taught in TWC.

[old jong]

I have it in both Biu Gee and Mok yan Jong forms. (Fong's lineage)

(But as Rene said so well: Just a different bit on the drill!...) ;)

[TansauNg]

Hi,

the Phoenix Eye punch is principally shown in the third form, biu tze, and then (in some kwoon) it was introduced in the other sets... Lun Kai sifu said that he learnt it from GGM Ip Man in fatshan, but if u can see all the sets performed by Lun Kai u could notice that there r a lot of differences from the sets performed & teached by Ip Man in Hong Kong...

[old jong]

The punch is the normal straight punch without twisting or bending the wrist.We don't "aim" with the index finger nuckle. It does it's job at impact anyway.

[anerlich]

He sure did.

Every time he got in a lift, to press that button for the top floor.

Seriously, Phil R is of course correct about TWC. GM Cheung has a series of exercises to develop the strength in that hand shape.

[l@zylee]

The Phoenix Eye is used in all three forms in our style which is Foshan Wing Chun of the Master Lun Kai lineage but I must say I have never been very comfortable with it I use it in the forms but very rarely in application.


Lee

[CFT]

Originally posted by l@zylee
The Phoenix Eye is used in all three forms in our style which is Foshan Wing Chun of the Master Lun Kai lineage but I must say I have never been very comfortable with it I use it in the forms but very rarely in application.
Hey Lee,

Just sent you a PM.

[yuanfen]

Beware of the rising phoenix- and the eye of the storm.

Seriously- forget the phoenix- it can get you into trouble.

[old jong]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Beware of the rising phoenix- and the eye of the storm.

Seriously- forget the phoenix- it can get you into trouble.

Just asking out of curiosity!..;) What kind of troubles?....
Hurted index knucle or excessive use of force?...;)

[yuanfen]

Old Jong asks:Just asking out of curiosity!.. What kind of troubles?....
Hurted index knucle or excessive use of force?...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possible problems-
1. wrong formation you hurt your fist or finger.

2. underdeveloped delivery system, including timing- you get blocked
and/or countered. And- you get the other guy madder than hell.

3, Done right- but in the wrong legal context-you need a lawyer and possible bond money.

4,Ethically misused-god or karma will catch up with you. Socrates- immorality runs fatser than death.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But except for that- bon voyage!
--------------------------------------------------------------------

PS/Old Jong tomorrow is my birthday and my wing chun students are taking me out tonight, one son and grandson(master of ground technique) tomorrow night,
and another son saturday night. The Phoenix does rise.

[old jong]

Hey Joy!...
Have a good time and ...Happy birthday!
All the best to you.

[dezhen2001]

happy birthday and have a great day :)

dawood

[ntc]

Joy.... right on the money !!!

And Happy Birthday !

[yuanfen]

thanks NTC, Old jong dawood and others on the other thread.
Lets not get overboard- I am still the same cantankerous fella.
Next life, I will try better.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


There is one thing that is jumping out at me on this topic. Its the question being raised as to if someone should use it or not? My thoughts are one should not think about if he will be using a Foo Ngon or a Yat Jee or a Charp Choi or any other shape. This stuff is designed to just come out and when someone reacts they should not decide on what to use as that would go against the natural way of functioning.

I understand some of the pro's and con's going on and there would certainly be pro's and con's in anything but if we think in a fight we will probally be kissing the concrete very fast.


Just my thoughts!


Regards,

[yuanfen]

Jim- i dont think anyone is suggesting- pausing and thinking
in the midst of a crisis.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Joy!


Jim- i dont think anyone is suggesting- pausing and thinking
in the midst of a crisis.


Understood but!

This is basically what I heard in what was written:

I have it but wont use it unless I was an emergency or or something like, I have it but its too dangerous etc..

If you do Kung Fu that truly involves the Foo Ngon (or any tool) then like it or not you will have to either use it in reality (as in any "real" heated situation as your mind will register as Cricis and react) or its not really built into your natural Kung Fu.

A lot of people say: We have foo ngon but in reality it is not part of their natural arts boxing other being just this little golden name to say "I have it to!"

For any one of our tools to be used spontaneosly, or in any natural way, they must be a daily/regular part of our training routine. If we Sun Punch 100 times per day (along with our other stuff) and Sun Punch the wall bag 100 times per day then the Sun Punch will work naturally. Yet, if we Sun Punch the bulk of the time and then occassionally do a few Foo Ngon applications or training (as it involves a different fist formation which is odd to the other naturally trained Sun formation) then it just wont come out naturally. But! If it was equally trained then you would not be able to control when or where you would use it as it would just react naturally.

So, do those of you that have the Foo Ngon in the Biu Jee, or somewhere in your three sets (or maybe in all of them), take this move out and work it as much as the Sun Punch (or any other method you practice regularly) or do you just practice it in the forms and do the occassion Foo Ngon development you hear a lot about?

I guess the moral of all that babbling mush is:

If it is not part of the norm WC for you then dont waste your time with it!

If it is, then you cannot control what you do when reacting!


Atleast thats what I believe.


Regards,

[yuanfen]

Jim- we may have a little difference in our perspectives.
I think that "control" is an important part of wing chun-using the appropriate motion for the appropriate occasion.
It is not a matter of stopping and thinking. After a while good internal dvelopment (Yi) automatically calibrates things- different from karateish tense muscle control.
You dont want to use the phoenix eye on the guy stealing the morning paper from your lawn.
Where does one learn the controls?-the full curriculum of chi sao.

PS: On the morning paper thing- one early morning when I was working out- there came a guy in a truck who stopped in front of my neighbor's yard accross the street- stole the morning paper and sped away. I hollered when the scene was underway- he just gunned his engine. I didnt give chase and was laughing my head off at human folly. The neighbor was stunned- he was drinking coffee and saw the whole thing through his kiving room window.

joy

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy!


Control is indeed part of anyones art and develops thru the whole proces (chi sao, san sao, jao sao) but still one need to ask?

How much does one practice the Foo Ngon and in any "real" situation where ones life is being threatened with violance I believe that ones body will react with what has naturally been trained.

Mantis people make use of Foo Ngon and Geung Gee a lot and that are there primary fist formations so when it comes time to fight (or just react in a fight), that is what will come out of their spontaneous reaction.

Most WC make use of Sun Punch. They sun punch all the time. When it comes time to fight the Sun punch will just come out! I have only witnessed one person who really used the Foo Ngon in their WC and that was because that was equally trained. Yet! Those who dont still think they can just pull it out of their hat when the heat is on or as they desire.

I disagree.

Controll is part of anyone skill as we would not rain Foo Ngon's on our partners or underdeveloped sparing friends (since that is or would still be a controlled enviornment) "and since a highly skilled person should be able to use minimum effort to play with their attacker" but if someone attacks you with the intent of causing you serious damage then your body just reacts to how it has been developed and freely fits to the situation at hand.

So! I guess! The big question really is???

When, where and how do you train the Foo Ngon to be part of your WC!


Regards,

[Phenix]

Hey guys,


Phenix eye or stacking punch doesn't have to be a heavy method.

phenix eye can be use as tap, drill, piecing... and reverse use....

say tapping, there are certain part of arm can be tap just to num or intercept or disable the opponent without injured him/her.....

drill is different ...

stacking piecing is different...

actually, it is very fun to use phenix eye to break tan sau structure. Hahahahaha

so is there phenix eyes hidden in SLT? Yes, ofcorse. :D
The beauty of SLT is a punch is never a punch...

and if there is a way of punching call sun punch, then phenix has to exist because they are a couple. Where the refining of Phenix application comes from? 12 zhuang's 36 hands technics. a phenix is not just a phenix. IMHO



------------
Hendrik is just a cosmos's illusory dream and waste energy to argue with him. :D

[yuanfen]

Control is indeed part of anyones art and develops thru the whole proces (chi sao, san sao, jao sao) but still one need to ask?

((Many wing chun people have insufficient control on what they do.We may mean different things by "control".))



Mantis people make use of Foo Ngon and Geung Gee a lot and that are there primary fist formations so when it comes time to fight (or just react in a fight), that is what will come out of their spontaneous reaction.

((Big differences in wing chun and mantis structures and usages))

Most WC make use of Sun Punch. They sun punch all the time. When it comes time to fight the Sun punch will just come out!

((depends on who what when where))

Those who dont still think they can just pull it out of their hat when the heat is on or as they desire.

I disagree.

((depends on who what when where IMO)



So! I guess! The big question really is???

When, where and how do you train the Foo Ngon to be part of your WC!

((A natural progression in wing chun development))

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen

((A natural progression in wing chun development))


Hey Joy,

Phenix eyes is also great in my san francisco style wck with rainbow body to disarm tan sau.... :D

Ya take that antena away.. we seldom see antena in cell phone anymore right? a part of evolution.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen



Most WC make use of Sun Punch. They sun punch all the time. When it comes time to fight the Sun punch will just come out!





Jim,

IMHO, sometime, relatively, sun punch is not heavy enough and fast enough. there are things which is heavy and fast in WCK.



see, IMHO, when using a "drill bit" one match it to the purpose. if the opponents is fat use this drll bit here ... if the opponents is skinny use that drill bit there.... if the opponents love to mix bjj into wck .. use that there... for damaging use it here... for disabling.. use it there....

and the phenix eyes match tan sau well....where sun punch will not do the job...

different drill bits for different things.

certainly one has to have the "motor" to drill...
and even motor has different gear....
and there are the axi which transfer torque from motor to drill bit....

Just my dreaming two cents.

well, I am bankrupt so I am selling drill bit and motor.. just a sells man :D

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen has always used phoenix eye fist as well as most other shaolin hand fist and finger formations. We are shaolin and the only difference is that our concepts i.e. (centerline, sensitivity) separates us from others. Fut Sao Wing Chun at it's highest level is a finger art dealing with Mak and pressure point striking. I heard that Yip Man also taught the old ways in Mainland China but surpressed it in Hong Kong because he was forced to teach in order to survive. I also heard that he only taught a few students who then taught the rest. http://futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[TjD]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hey Joy!


Control is indeed part of anyones art and develops thru the whole proces (chi sao, san sao, jao sao) but still one need to ask?

How much does one practice the Foo Ngon and in any "real" situation where ones life is being threatened with violance I believe that ones body will react with what has naturally been trained.

Mantis people make use of Foo Ngon and Geung Gee a lot and that are there primary fist formations so when it comes time to fight (or just react in a fight), that is what will come out of their spontaneous reaction.

Most WC make use of Sun Punch. They sun punch all the time. When it comes time to fight the Sun punch will just come out! I have only witnessed one person who really used the Foo Ngon in their WC and that was because that was equally trained. Yet! Those who dont still think they can just pull it out of their hat when the heat is on or as they desire.

I disagree.

Controll is part of anyone skill as we would not rain Foo Ngon's on our partners or underdeveloped sparing friends (since that is or would still be a controlled enviornment) "and since a highly skilled person should be able to use minimum effort to play with their attacker" but if someone attacks you with the intent of causing you serious damage then your body just reacts to how it has been developed and freely fits to the situation at hand.

So! I guess! The big question really is???

When, where and how do you train the Foo Ngon to be part of your WC!


Regards,


Jim,

when you practice chi sau, do you practice full power all the time? if not, wouldn't your body react with lighter non-KO power, non-damaging hits? why don't we train full power chi sau all the time with the intent to kill as in a bad situation those are the reactions we need?

[yuanfen]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Most WC make use of Sun Punch. They sun punch all the time. When it comes time to fight the Sun punch will just come out!

((Hendrik- I didn't say that. Jom R did.))
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam of fat sao wc sez:
We are shaolin and the only difference is that our concepts i.e. (centerline, sensitivity) separates us from others.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
((What?- unless you mean something else from what I read-tje above statement is nonsense. Good Ip Man wing chun understands the center line
and sensitivity very very well))
---------------------------------------------
TJD-
asks
why don't we train full power chi sau all the time with the intent to kill as in a bad situation those are the reactions we need?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Why doesnt team A in military training sessions really kill
members of Team B to make sure that things are for real??))

[TjD]

Originally posted by yuanfen

TJD-
asks
why don't we train full power chi sau all the time with the intent to kill as in a bad situation those are the reactions we need?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Why doesnt team A in military training sessions really kill
members of Team B to make sure that things are for real??))

that was the point i was trying to make. wether i use a phoenix eye or a fist, it doesn't really matter. if i can hit with one; with a change in intention i can use the other just as effectively. (assuming i know how to do a phoenix eye correctly).

[Sam]

yuanfen, my statement was made for all Wing Chun in general. I of course am speaking from my experience in Fut Sao. My statements are not made to compare or judge Fut Sao from other Wing Chun but only to expound on what Fut Sao has to offer.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik, Joy & TJD,



Hendrik,

and the phenix eyes match tan sau well....where sun punch will not do the job...

different drill bits for different things.


Exactly! Training begins by learning how to use something! Then it is drilled for years to become naturaly and then it is free'd! So, once something has become natural then when in a panic situation of aggression your natural methods will just react. So, if you are just given a Foo Ngon and do not drill it into natural then it is useless IMO.


Joy,


((Many wing chun people have insufficient control on what they do.We may mean different things by "control".))

Could be!

((Big differences in wing chun and mantis structures and usages))

The structure was not the point but the natural usage was as that is their norm and what will come out.

So! I guess! The big question really is???

When, where and how do you train the Foo Ngon to be part of your WC!

((A natural progression in wing chun development))

Unfortunately, this answer is not going to help us discuss the topic. :-(


TJD,


when you practice chi sau, do you practice full power all the time? if not, wouldn't your body react with lighter non-KO power, non-damaging hits? why don't we train full power chi sau all the time with the intent to kill as in a bad situation those are the reactions we need?

Because that is not the purpose of Chi Sao. Certainly one can train it harder, and more aggressively, but Chi Sao is a WC tool for development and not what would be similar to fighting. Yet! We do train the feel (thru listening) of when, where, how, distance, timing, et al and ones trained reactions would be indeed free'd in Chi Sao so if you really use Foo Ngon in your art then it should show up in your Chi Sao as well as your free fighting.


Now! The big question that only Hendrik seems to have hit upon! How do you train your Foo Ngon? Please realize I am not talking about one knuckle push ups or just spearing a wall bag!


See ya,

[Phenix]

Jim,

Now! The big question that only Hendrik seems to have hit upon! How do you train your Foo Ngon? Please realize I am not talking about one knuckle push ups or just spearing a wall bag!


well, get the motor running and then find the dril bit in SLT. :D

one can keep slam the dril bit with motor off, and it is not going to drill.

[yuanfen]

Jim- Technique orientation wont do much for the phoenix eye.
Hendrik is partly correct but not enough. Sure the motor has to be running but you have the levers, the linkages and the path.
Drill bits can break.
Joy

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Jim- Technique orientation wont do much for the phoenix eye.
Hendrik is partly correct but not enough. Sure the motor has to be running but you have the levers, the linkages and the path.
Drill bits can break.
Joy

Joy,

agree.

that is why I love the V shape dial and all the details of vacheron constantin watch alots.
that is the WCner's watch!

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Chateau/8616/watch/vcprimer.html

and now they have dual regulator , it is similar to the both hand chi sau... but each hand doing its own things. notice there is only one and only one hand in each circle :D

http://www.avente-watches.com/products/42005.000g-8900.cfm

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy!



Jim- Technique orientation wont do much for the phoenix eye.


Agreed but there must be a concept (or numerous) for the skill and then the concept must be free'd. The way the Foo Ngon punctures (or pierces) shows it must fit in places that Yat Jee or other methods do not.

Hendrik gave an example of how they utilize it to break the structure of Tan Sao. So, in order for Hendrik to have learned to do this in a natural way he had to have been shown how to use it, drilled the S**T out of it to build it into his reflexive response and then free'd the methods in the appropriate sensativity training.

Hendrik is partly correct but not enough. Sure the motor has to be running but you have the levers, the linkages and the path.
Drill bits can break.

Understand the Jing (path of force) is very important to all skills (as that is the goal of LJ teaching)(the San Sik are regarded as Ging patterns rather than loose skills) as if you do not understand the path then how does one generate the proper power (and more importantly "refine/hone the path" to become subtle) yet when discussing the purpose/concept for something, and when it shall be utilized, I believe we must look at how regular one trains that purpose so that it will become natural. If any one of the tools are not trained regularly then they will not be natural. Same goes for the Foo Ngon.


Thanks for the chat!


Regards,

[Phenix]

Hey Jim,


http://www.avente-watches.com/products/42005.000g-8900.cfm

may be I rather ask my wife to buy me one.
But wait a minute, she might not.... so ok
I will wait for my birthday, so that my student and grand student and grand grand student will buy me one of this watch. :D


ok lets buy the Vacheron constantin dual time regulator.

see, now we have seen how each cycle only has one hand.
and every hands is usefull... and then we can drilled the heck out of our eyes to get use to reading the dial of this watch. since it looks different to the ordinary analog watch with has two hands in one circle and those digital watch which has no hands. :D


Joy, you want to buy one too? this is sifu's watch!


and it is great to show the student that the watch is unscrach even after years and years of get hammer by the Phenix eyes.... eventhough it migh not work anymore due to the shock. well, there is nothing wrong to use this watch to seal one's presure point from phenix eyes while one is doing Tan sau. and by the way, as learning from Fong Sai Yok, may be we want to buy a big wall clock to hand around our neck to seal against phenix eyes, chicken heart kick.... to our chest! :D

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Hendrik!


You have good taste in watches!

I love watches! My latest beauty is a Bvlgari!

Plus! They protect/cover against the inner wrist points!


:D


See ya,

[Phenix]

Jim,

wow, you got the expensive one. Your wife knows you spent on this ? :D


I got this one for daily ware, still a wingchun one! with 40mm for pressure point seal! Hahhha


http://www.orolus.com/cgi-bin/ShoppingCart.cgi?action=ShowPic&search_for=64975304061LS&search_brn=ORIS&search_sty=&lowest_price=0&highest_price=99999&ori_action=Go&detail_category=.&detail_sizes=.&detail_keyword=xxl+regulator&search_logo=

[yuanfen]

Hendrik and Jim- My late gave me his Rolex- I never wear it... now I gotta figure how to send it to Rolex for cleaning(expensive).
Number 2 son gave me an expensive gold watch.

My favorite? A simple Timex. I never have to worry what happens to it. I travel light...

Jim- in any case my point and many of yours - points towards most wcers just forgetting about the phoenix eye- for reasons given. Lots of fundamentals ahead of those. BTW- depending on family there are differences in fist formations in mantis and wing chun.

joy

[Phenix]

Hey Joy,

rolex is great and hard to protect the pressure point! good rugget seal! :D