Form vs. No-Form

[Ravenshaw]

This is related to my Technique and Principle thread.

The concept of "form" is that when attacked a certain way, you react in a predetermined way. This counter can come from forms, partner drills, etc. You practice this move over and over with partners so that when you encounter this certain attack, you will be prepared.

The concept of "no-form" is that you learn the moves, you make them a part of you, and you forget them. But since the elements are still present and - at this point - instinctive, when you are attacked, you will respond with the same principles though they may manifest themselves differently than before. Think of Legos; you have two castle sets and you start by building them individually. After you understand how the Legos go together and what makes a good Lego castle, you start mixing/matching pieces and features to make whatever kind of castle suits your purposes and without instructions. But you have to build a lot of Lego castles before you learn how to do this.

And what method do you use to train for self-defense? Are you an advocate of form or no-form? What method is best for a novice/intermediate/advanced student? Is there a best method? What role do the training methods of sparring/partner drills and prearranged sets play, if any, in your fighting?

The primary goal of this topic is to get people (including myself) thinking and discussing. If you think something is good or bad, state your reasoning. I imagine we will here a few "forms are useless" comments (among others) here and I think we could all benefit by picking each other's minds.

[Ravenshaw]

I suppose it's only fair that I throw my own thoughts in to begin with.

I classify myself as a "intermediate" student of martial arts. I have learned quite a few techniques and I have drilled them. In his essay "Liberate Yourself from Classical Karate," Bruce Lee refers to predetermined and rehearsed reactions to an encounter as a "crutch." In my mind, though, I can see their usefulness. A beginner often needs training wheels and even with more experience, he needs to build up to taking those training wheels off. It is entirely possible to learn to defend yourself with rehearsed movements.

But there are inevitably some situations you (or your teacher for that matter) did not take into account. And, for the above mentioned reasons, this is why a no-form approach is highly versatile and useful, if advanced.

In working toward this no-form, both sets and sparring play important roles in my training. I don't think sparring needs as much explanation as sets do, though. Prearranged sets teach me the basic skills/body alignment I need to know and understand in order to transcend them. They also provide many different perspectives and uses for different elements and give me a fuller view of their utility and capabilities. When sparring, I try to forget my techniques and just react as naturally as possible. I am still far from the "no-form" ideal (in fact, I've only started on that path), but this is a productive way, I think, to make progress.

So I guess those would be my thoughts on the subject in a nutshell. Discuss!

[Ford Prefect]

I believe in no-form myself. I think forms may be a good training tool to teach somebody flow and for a strength/endurance conditioner, but I don't believe in using any pre-determined attack-defense sequences. My first exposure to fighting arts was boxing for my college's team for a few years and then brazilian jiu-jitsu.

In both arts, you will drill techniques like an armbar from the guard in BJJ and a slip-counterpunch in boxing. That is more a drill of execution than a drill of sequence or predetermined action. You drill these hard and apply them in live sparring. In time, you develop your own method of fighting using the tools you've drilled and you own natural feel of flow, timing, rhythm, agressiveness, strength, body type, etc.

When it is done this way, there is no hesitation. Through live sparring and personal development, my reactions are now instantaneous and all thought is taken out of the equation. As Bruce Lee was fond of saying "it happens all by itself". You can dynamically adjust to situation as attacks and defenses will vary from encounter to encounter. You learn to become dynamic in action rather than rigidly adhering to set style of footwork, a set type of punch, set angles, etc.

[SanSoo Student]

I believe in No Form, but I also train using forms as drills. Forms help correct your positioning, body mechanics, striking and reaction speed.

When I train in reality fighting situations, I assume no stance. and use no forms, I will use strikes I learned in forms but a person can't really salute then get into a stance in the street. I'm just trying to survive the attacker from behind, side, below, or in front of me.

[Laughing Cow]

Personally, I think people spend too much thought on things like form vs no-form and similar.

In a real fight, you got NO time to think you react or you don't.

Over-thinking I think is a modern-day sickness that has afflicted way too many people and has lowered their skill.

Too many people still think that there are superior techs, styles, training methods, when in reality those only contribute a part of what you need to survive a real confrontation.

Just my thoughts.

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
In a real fight, you got NO time to think you react or you don't.

That's just the thing. No-form is reaction in any way that works for the situation as opposed to preprogrammed counters. Is this overthinking? I really didn't think there was a lot to it.

The idea of no-form, I suppose, is more basic than I let on. I am guilty of over-explaining.

[Laughing Cow]

Ravenshaw.

I never studied or know of a MA that recommended fixed responses.

If you have that strong preprogrammed counters and responses I would say switch Schools and Instructors.

The form is a training tool, like drills and so on nothing more.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Personally, I think people spend too much thought on things like form vs no-form and similar.

In a real fight, you got NO time to think you react or you don't.

Over-thinking I think is a modern-day sickness that has afflicted way too many people and has lowered their skill.

Too many people still think that there are superior techs, styles, training methods, when in reality those only contribute a part of what you need to survive a real confrontation.

Just my thoughts.

Right. The thinking comes during training. Not actual execution. This is a question about training methods, isn't it?


Stuart B.

[scotty1]

Exactly. The best way to achieve the state where you don't have to think.

It is always beneficial to analyze the methods you train with.

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
I never studied or know of a MA that recommended fixed responses.

I don't think martial arts or schools recommend fixed responses but a lot of students, I find, practice movements with a "if he comes at me like this, I respond with this move" mentality. The fixed response can be anything from a specific block and strike to a throw. The thing is, beginners are taught how to counter to get them on their feet (example: the Muay Thai shin block/roundhouse counter) and more advanced students can start getting away from the specific "method" or "approach" and simply react in a suitable way to accomplish the goal. It sounds elementary, but this is a common criticism against traditional martial arts and I thought I'd ask to see how true the criticism was.

[Laughing Cow]

Ravenshaw.

I agree that a lot ofstudents don't seem to get it, hence why we got so many "what if" scenarios and if "A uses tech Y which tech would you use to counter".

Maybe that is why I am so drawn to my current style, we got so many possible applications within the forms that keep shocking me into rethinking of how move x or y can be utilised diferently.

Example:
We got a "hidden" punch in the form to the front, but when we drill it we punch the same way to the side, diagonal, etc.

For me the Forms are simply a small showcase of what you can do with your style, just that a sample and nothing more.

Just my opinion naturally.

[LEGEND]

Most forms are unrealistic. When people punch u...they will do it with POWER. A karate block may work on a little kid...deflecting his blows...but how about an adult much larger? Another thing is that forms are pre program just like anything else...but the realism of that program is under question. I don't understand what your concept for no forms is??? Give me an martial art example...

[Ravenshaw]

An example... Well, lets say:

-I know one form
-I know three ways to counter a lead punch (techniques x, y, and z)
-I drill x, y, and z often against a partner
-I use x or y or z in a fight

This is the logic behind "form." You train a specific way to respond to a specific punch and this training is what you rely on in a fight.

Now, let's say:

-I know techniques x, y, and z, which are meant to deal with a straight punch
-In a fight, my opponent feints a cross to the body before launching his lead
-I have responded to the feint in a way that makes executing x, y, or z very difficult
-Instead of using x, y, or z to counter, I block and counter from where my hands/legs already are
-This counter is not a technique I have specifically trained, but is made up of elements of those that I have

This is the logic of "no-form": No matter how many forms and techniques I memorize, there will always be a situation where none of them can be used. At that point, it is more useful to have focused on the elements of the movements (i.e. all the different blocks, strikes, throws, grabs) because they are more flexible to apply in the chaos of fighting.

[Fred Sanford]

i have issues with the original definitions of form v. no form given at the start of this thread. learning forms doesn't make you a robot that only does things one predetermined way (does it?).

forms training has it's place. at any school which purports to teach fighting, the forms training is only part of the training. some forms may be designed to teach principles, body mechanics, build certain things into your muscle memory.