"Deadly Moves" and Competition

[Ravenshaw]

I've heard the argument a few times over why many kung fu men fare poorly in many fighting tournaments. One side tends to hold that kung fu fighters rely on forms alone to teach them fighting abilities and thus have none. The other side says that kung fu does not adjust well to sport fighting because most of its techniques are too dangerous to use in the ring/octagon.

This got me thinking:

Are not these same deadly techniques inappropriate for many street situations as well? The most that one is allowed to do in self defense (legally and ethically speaking) is only as much as is necessary for the encounter. For example, it would be wrong and illegal to stomp on somebody's knee and break it in a common barfight (unless weapons or lethal force were used against you). It would be similarly irresponsible to gouge a man's eyes out for grabbing your wife's purse. Obviously, if there is a serious threat to your health or life you are entitled to do everything in your power to defend yourself. But this may not be the case for every situation.

So why should we rely so much on deadly and debilitating maneuvers when they are not always warranted (especially if you are a male)? And how much extra training does it take to learn to kick a guy's knee in when you've been training kicking to other areas already? The same thing goes for a chop to the throat.

This thread isn't meant to antagonize or to argue one point over another. I'm just playing devil's advocate so I can understand the reasoning here. Ideally, I'd like to have a good discussion and not a savage argument. I guess we'll learn shortly how feasible that is.:p

[Ravenshaw]

...I will answer my own devil's advocate argument with a counter-argument:

Not all banned techniques are innapropriate for realistic confrontations. Groin strikes, for example, can stun an opponent effectively with moderate force and small chance of permanent damage.

[Merryprankster]

The truth is that these "deadly moves," are fallaciously named. They CAN be deadly, but most often are not. Rugby players, wrestlers, judoka, boxers, kickboxers, Kyokushin competitors, lacrosse players, hockey (field and ice) players should be dropping like flies, by sheer accident, if the human body were as fragile as people would like it to be. It is surprisingly resiliant. Wrestlers are consistently thrown with tremendous force on their heads and necks as are Judoka. Limbs, including the head and neck are constantly manipulated at full speed and power. The people here who say "Yeah, but they aren't TRYING to rip your head off," have clearly never been in a Judo tournament or a wrestling match. I can guarentee you that yes, your opponent DOES frequently try to rip your head off.

Rhadi Ferguson gives a little "The other guy's face/head/neck, is his problem, not yours" speech. Put simply, it's not my responsibility not to hurt you, provided I do so within the rules.

Secondly, there is the issue of training deadly moves. You don't. I don't. Anybody who says they are REALLY practicing these is lying to you. What they are practicing is awareness that these things are out there (valuable) and some movement groving (also valuable). They are absolutely NOT practicing these movements in full contact sparring. It's hard to keep training partners when you're breaking necks and gouging eyes out.

Doing these things just isn't as simple as it sounds. Think about how many shots in a boxing match ACTUALLY land flush....

[BentMonk]

I agree with the Prankster as far as truly practicing "deadly" strikes. Having been in real confrontations both before and after my MA training, the only thing I can say for sure is that full contact hurts, and adrenaline is a marvelous thing. MA training can prepare you for the eventuality of combat, can sharpen your reflexes, and train your body to certain movements. However the most important thing I've found that MA training did for me was help me to control the adrenaline rush. Losing your focus in a confrontation is what will cause you to either get your butt kicked, or go overboard and seriously hurt someone. Being trained in any fighting style is like carrying a loaded gun. Don't pull it out unless you intend to use it, and make sure you can cover your azz legally if and when you do use it. Judges and lawyers will have a field day with your wallet when they find out you're a "trained fighter". Peace, love and happy training to all.

[apoweyn]

Nothing to add at the moment, except to give props to Ravenshaw for a really good observation. Wish I'd thought of it. :)

[Judge Pen]

Nice post. You are right, I only train in the awarness of "deadly techniques" Sure they are in my forms, but forms are full of moves most of us will never attempt in a confrontation.

The only banned techniques that I do routinely train to some degree are groin kicks (not deadly but they are not banned in our class/tournaments) and knee kicks (and this is done by kicking poles etc and not on a resisting opponent.)

[MasterKiller]

The only banned techniques that I do routinely train to some degree are groin kicks (not deadly but they are not banned in our class/tournaments) and knee kicks (and this is done by kicking poles etc and not on a resisting opponent.)
JP,
Do you not train forearm and elbow strikes? These, IMO, are potentially more dangerous than kicks to the knees because they are strong blows aimed primarily at the head, neck, and throat.

[Judge Pen]

Yes I do. I work these on heavy bags etc., and my forms are full of these strikes. I also condition my forearms by striking wood with them. I guess what I was inarticulately trying to say is that I don't really train them against a resisting partner (with the exception of groin kicks) We have two man sets and drills that use these techniques, but I know what technique they will throw so its not the same thing.

Certain hand and kick techniques which are legal should be performed with enough force to be potentially deadly anyway.

[old jong]

The fact is that very few Kung Fu (Or most traditional martial arts) people are interrested in fighting before an audience. Most train for their own reasons.
This "deadly moves" excuse probably comes from frustrated "Kung Fu" guys who's school probably teaches a collection of dirty tricks and fake chinese forms as a Martial art.
Real Kung Fu trains a practitioner to hit very hard and those blows should be effective on any ordinary targets like the nose or the jaw or the ribs,whatever.

As I said before: Take a good Kung Fu man from any serious style and train him properly for endurance/ stamina for six weeks and you have a very potent "sport fighter"!...
I could add: Take the majority of BJJ players who train only for pleasure,without any strikes and starting from the knees. Now,put them in a MMA fight .Would they do better?...

MMA means training like a pro fighter first.Technique and (or) personal style come second (IMO).
Ordinary kwoon training for self-defense or whatever the reason is not sufficient in that case.

[MaFuYee]

ravenshaw;

many "kung fu men" fare poorly in fighting tournaments because they don't train for fighting tournaments. - plain and simple.

i would say that a good percentage of ppl who take tcma are not in it for fighting tournaments. many just practice and learn for the sake of enjoyment.

then, there is the other side of the coin, where in today's age of 'lawyers' (said without any atempt to hide the tone of absoulte disgust) and sue happy ppl, ma schools have to be very careful about the safety of their students. - also, one must not forget that ultimately, oftentimes, it is a business first. (as is evidenced by the fact that kids make up the majority of student enrollment in many schools.)

it is just sad when ppl delude themselves as to the actual level of their abilities due to grandiose imaginings. (very common) - that is when you'll hear excuses such as, "i got beat because i couldn't use my killing techniques."

[Kristoffer]

You guys give good examples so I won't write so much..
Just something I thought when reading the original post is:


So why should we rely so much on deadly and debilitating maneuvers when they are not always warranted?


The answer to that is that if you are doing a traditional martial art it means your 'art' was molded to be used in WAR. (more likely than a modern day self defence scenario). You had large family clans fighting for example. In those days you would be interested in the 'more deadly stuff'. The only reason that we practise these moves today is of tradition and that they with ease can be modified. You don't HAVE to elbow your oponent in the back of the head or jump on his spine.. :)

[old jong]

I think they had a complete arsenal of knifes,swords,arrows and maces to do "war"!...
Sure ,it is possible to kill with your bare hands but it is not essential to use Kung Fu or any other martial art to do this. How many times we read or heard about the poor guy who was killed by one punch in a bar fight or whatever?...99.9% of the times, the hitter was an untrained person with no killing intentions.He just happened to hit harder than necessary or the victim had some kind of brain malformation or something.

My point is: Kung Fu (in the old days) was more a way to be able to properly beat the **** out of somebody and have him walk around with two black eyes and a broken nose than,killing him.But,legends and tales made their ways to our days and many do take these stories litteraly.

[MasterKiller]

My point is: Kung Fu (in the old days) was more a way to be able to properly beat the **** out of somebody and have him walk around with two black eyes and a broken nose than,killing him.But,legends and tales made their ways to our days and many do take these stories litteraly. I disagree. Bandits, thieves, soldiers, and bodyguards were the first practicioners, and they had little use for allowing someone to remain living after an encounter.

[Ford Prefect]

And you think these bandits, bodyguards, and soldiers fought with fists or practiced fist fighting anywhere near as regularly as they practiced fighting with weapons?

[old jong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I disagree. Bandits, thieves, soldiers, and bodyguards were the first practicioners, and they had little use for allowing someone to remain living after an encounter.

As seen in the movies!...But I agree that there was some of this also. ;)

[Christopher M]

The argument is silly to begin with; what else is there to say?

[MaFuYee]

huh huh hmmm... he said, "butt stroke"...

[fa_jing]

Just to clarify, for someone training in a traditional way in certain CMA styles, it's not that their moves are "too deadly," it's that alot of the moves are "not legal." As pointed out, groin kicks, elbow strikes to the head, finger breaks, even eye pokes etc against another competitent martial artist are not likely to be deadly - however they can be painful, annoying, cause permanent minor injury, etc. Thus such techniques should be and are banned from most sporting competition. Now if most CMA practicioners who train in a strictly traditional way are asked to compete in a sport comp, they will have trouble adjusting due to some of their repetoire of trained responses being "not legal," not "too deadly." That said, of course most CMA can be modified for sport and trained as such.

For people that actually fight a number of different styles and have studied multiple styles, they realize that the whole MMA vs. TMA vs sport vs traditional debate is overblown. In reality, it's all about the way you train and specialization. Most styles of fighting, whether they have roots in sport or in deadly combat or in street brawling, can be analyzed, modified, broken down, etc. into useful elements particular to the goals being trained for.

-Keith (trained for sport rather than the street) fajing ;)

[gazza99]

If I were to use the too deadly to fight excuse it could be rephrased into "I am not a good enough athlete or/and MA'ist to beat this person without using dirty tricks, or force that could cause permanen/long lasting injuries" Or maybe "I dont want to train for sport only street combat. When it comes to fighting I am a merciless heartless ******* who will only fight when my life or my family is in danger and therefore will only arm myself with appropriate methods and set them on autoreact mode"

I think sport vs combat debates need to be an Either/or proposition. They are too vastly different worlds, and cannot be directly converted for comparison when it comes to fighting ability, and your ability to survive on the street. The mentality has to differ, as does they type of reactions trained into your bank of movements. In the ring you can be assured there is a lack of weapons (projectile, impact, edged, etc...), you can also be assured that there are no other attackers, it is also a fairly safe bet the person isnt trying to take your life. You are most likely aware the opponents skill level, and even style of fighting. The list goes on and on...

regards,
Gary

[Judge Pen]

If I encounter a "street" situation, then it is safest to assume that he could have a weapon of a friend that will seriously hurt, maim, or kill me and I will use whatever the most efficient technique is to insure that I will walk away. I may think that I am the better athlete/fighter to take the guy in a controlled environment, but can I take that chance in an uncontrolled environment?

[Ray Pina]

I train traditional martial arts. Many would consider Hsing-I to be as aggressive/lethal as it gets. Elbows, knees, all kinds of strikes to the throat (No 1 target!), all kinds of tares of joints, all kinds of this and not-so-nice that.

Still, there is no problem stepping into a ring with a boxer and having some fun. I don't side slip, I prefer to shield or wedge my way through strikes, but hook, uppercut and over hand sute me just fine. I will use my elbows to block, but can play by the rules.

Hung Gar element strikes, if trained properly, should be enough. Wing Chun pak sau and bong sau, should be enough. If it could be a "deadly" strike to the throat (which still gets hit with boxing gloves all the time) it could just as easily be a clear shot to the face.

I would argue that you shouldn't be striking without control of the apponant anyway, and if you have that, you should have at least a couple of options ranging from most uncool to very sportsman like.

How do you see if your sifu is any good if his technique is too dangerous to show you? Are you pulling your strikes to give him face? If not, if he can do it to you, there's no reason why you can't do it to me, or the boxer, or the BJJ guy. You just have to train and try. Competitive fighting is about rising to the occassion -- giving your balls a workout -- and testing your skill set. If you can't do this or that because ... that sounds like the excuses of the unskilled.

[BentMonk]

There isn't much of a comparrison between sparring of any kind and a real situation. Sparring at least to me is a way to practice and try diffierent techniques. It is also a way to cut loose and have some fun...kind of like Tekken w/out the controller. If your life is on the line, that's another story. If I'm in a situation where I truly feel I may be hurt or killed, I will use whatever means neccessary to survive the encounter. In my oppinion there are no "dirty tricks" when survival is at stake. If a person sets out to harm or kill another, what right do they have to cry about fairness if they end up hurt or killed themselves? What goes around comes around. That holds true for the MA who takes advantage of a guy who's a little drunk and obnoxious by hospitalizing him after he throws a weak off target haymaker as well. Hopefully no matter what style you train in, there will be some emphasis on avoiding physical confrontation completely, and how much force is appropriate when confrontation is unavoidable. As I said in my earleir post, real fighting has consequences, painful and expensive ones. Be ready to face them if you use your skills.

[Judge Pen]

It is a cop out. I don't have the time or the discipline at this point in my life to train for competitive fighting. My point above is even if I did, I would use the thoat strikes, the eye gouges, the joint strikes first to make sure that I take a guy out quickly in an uncontrolled environment.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BentMonk
As I said in my earleir post, real fighting has consequences, painful and expensive ones. Be ready to face them if you use your skills.

And if anyone needs a good defense attorney in Tennessee call 865-546- .... :D

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by MaFuYee
many "kung fu men" fare poorly in fighting tournaments because they don't train for fighting tournaments. - plain and simple.

I agree whole-heartedly.

[BentMonk]

JP - You don't charge a retainer fee to fellow SD'ers do you? :cool:

[Ray Pina]

In the ring, both folks play by the same rules. On the street, both guys play by the same rule: there are none.

A lot of folks here imploy the idea that on the street, they are the only ones that know "dirty tricks" as they are being called here. Do you not think folks out there don't grab hair, ears, eyes? Kick balls? Because they DON'T know martial arts, they are more likely to use these methods. Because they are most likely more experinced that you in fighting (street toughts tend to fight, that's why they think they can beat you, thus causing trouble) they will stick to the few things they KNOW that work.

If ones only fighting experince is against class mates, I would say your experince is greatly limited.

The idea that "sport" fighting is not realistic I can understand to a certain degree. But I'll put my money on the guy with 20 ameuture fights against the guy with none when they square off in front of the corner store. Why? Because he's training the same way as the other guy (probbaly more intensly), but he's worked through the butterflies and adrenaline dump. He is more familier with the thing they are about to engage in. The other guy will either break, and turn his head under the pressure. Or be an out of control raging bull just waiting to lead into a wall.

[shaolinarab]

You know, about 2 weeks ago I was carrying my dufflebag to class, and it had my sparring gear and nunchakus. I had already learned 8 swinging techniques with them and I was seriously wondering, 'if i was walking from my car and someone tried to mug me, I could probably easily just pull my nunchakus out (they were in the side pocket, which wasn't really zipped up) and hit the perpetrator with one horizontal and then vertical swing in the head, and that should be that."

but then i wondered what the police would say after i called them, whether or not he suffered a major head injury or just some minor contusions. i tried looking up the legal issues on the web, but couldn't find anything. i know people have killed with nunchakus before, and they may be forbidden in a few states, but i imagined the possibility that i would be charged with excessive assault (not sure what the charge is called). as many in this thread have asked, do you think the police could or would try to argue that i used the weapon illegally?

just one of those thoughts that you have when you are carrying a traditional shaolin weapon with you. it's all funny to think of what a cop would say if i were pulled over for speeding and he just saw nunchakus in the passenger seat. "so where were you racing to get to at 85 on this street?" :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
In the ring, both folks play by the same rules. On the street, both guys play by the same rule: there are none.

A lot of folks here imploy the idea that on the street, they are the only ones that know "dirty tricks" as they are being called here. Do you not think folks out there don't grab hair, ears, eyes? Kick balls? Because they DON'T know martial arts, they are more likely to use these methods. Because they are most likely more experinced that you in fighting (street toughts tend to fight, that's why they think they can beat you, thus causing trouble) they will stick to the few things they KNOW that work.

If ones only fighting experince is against class mates, I would say your experince is greatly limited.

The idea that "sport" fighting is not realistic I can understand to a certain degree. But I'll put my money on the guy with 20 ameuture fights against the guy with none when they square off in front of the corner store. Why? Because he's training the same way as the other guy (probbaly more intensly), but he's worked through the butterflies and adrenaline dump. He is more familier with the thing they are about to engage in. The other guy will either break, and turn his head under the pressure. Or be an out of control raging bull just waiting to lead into a wall.

I agree that the trained amatuer fighter would have an advantage in the street over the TMA who only spars in class. That goes without saying. I've never said that I could beat a ma who trains to fight in the ring. I've had some friendly sparring matches with some guys who have fouth this way and they are excellent fighters. They didn't mop the floor with me, per se, but I would have given the match to them.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shaolinarab
You know, about 2 weeks ago I was carrying my dufflebag to class, and it had my sparring gear and nunchakus. I had already learned 8 swinging techniques with them and I was seriously wondering, 'if i was walking from my car and someone tried to mug me, I could probably easily just pull my nunchakus out (they were in the side pocket, which wasn't really zipped up) and hit the perpetrator with one horizontal and then vertical swing in the head, and that should be that."

but then i wondered what the police would say after i called them, whether or not he suffered a major head injury or just some minor contusions. i tried looking up the legal issues on the web, but couldn't find anything. i know people have killed with nunchakus before, and they may be forbidden in a few states, but i imagined the possibility that i would be charged with excessive assault (not sure what the charge is called). as many in this thread have asked, do you think the police could or would try to argue that i used the weapon illegally?

just one of those thoughts that you have when you are carrying a traditional shaolin weapon with you. it's all funny to think of what a cop would say if i were pulled over for speeding and he just saw nunchakus in the passenger seat. "so where were you racing to get to at 85 on this street?" :D

I've posted on this before. A weapon: knife, sword, or even club is illegal to carry "with the intent to go armed." (At least it is in TN). Going to and from class you will be able to rebut any presumptions that you were carrying the weapon with the requisite intent.

As for the use of the weapon, that is a mushy "reasonbleness under the circumstances" test and would depend on the level of threat you subjectively felt you were under and whether the jury objectively agrees with your subjective beliefs.

As for my retainer, I'd give you a discount, but the partners at my firm won't let me work for free! :cool:

[MasterKiller]

just one of those thoughts that you have when you are carrying a traditional shaolin weapon with you. You might want to check your references, there SA. I'm not so sure that nunchuakas are a traditional Shaolin weapon.

[Shaolin-Do]

Im not so sure a cop would care where the chucks were from... or any other weapon for that matter.
:)

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You might want to check your references, there SA. I'm not so sure that nunchuakas are a traditional Shaolin weapon.

MK, i was waiting for someone to stop me on that ;)

by 'traditional shaolin' (perhaps i should have said TMA) i meant something that is not carried by the Chinese today, even though it was used in the past.

as for carrying weapons with intent, i guess that means i must be careful to keep them in the car if i'm not going to class, huh? what the hell do the cops know? :p

[Shaolin-Do]

I know that the axe effects the jublees in an uncomfortable manner.

cops suxor.

[norther practitioner]

Cop: what is that sword thing for in the back
Me: Just kung fu training equipment
Cop: (handing me ticket) Oh, OK
Me: Crying after I realise what the ticket will cost.:D


Another time got stopped by a cop while walking to the park to train, I had a broadsword in hand... he was cool too, told me to find an "unpopulated" area of the park to practice in.

[Shaolin-Do]

Cop: Whats that smell?
Me: Oh, that... I just finished training.
Cop: That doesnt smell like training.
Me: I have a sword.
Cop: Please get out and put your hands on the hood of the vehicle.
Me: *runs*

[Fu-Pow]

To some up some of the problems in this type of discussion:

1) Ring fights have rules, street fights has no rules.

2) Ring fights have 1 attacker, street fights could have multiple attackers.

3) Ring fights are barehanded, street fights could be some combination of barehands and implements.

4) Not all "illegal" techniques are "deadly" techniques. Some are meant to maim and to temporarily injure.

5)Ring fighters usually train more intensely than traditional fighters who are in it more for "fun."