Aikido: how effective is it?

[Xixor]

Hello all. I've been thinking about this for a while now, because I am trying to decide whether to take karate or aikido. I am still in high school, and I figure karate is a good workout as well as great self defense. I also know of an aikido class nearby, and that caught my attention too, because it isn't as widely known as karate, and still a great art. But how great is it? Can it put the hurt on like karate;)?Which art should I take, in your opinions?

[Kristoffer]

Depends on the style, depends on how the quality of the instructors, depends on the prize etc. A generalization is that it takes longer to be good at Aikido compared to karate. I personly would choose Aikido over Karate any given day in the week. It has interesting footwork and a certain 'flow' that I like.

[Christopher M]

IMHO Tomiki style and it's derivatives tend to be practical due to their approach to off-balance and use of shomen-ate as foundation. But you should check out both schools and find out which one best suits you; don't worry too much about which style is "better for dishing out the hurt."

[Former castleva]

Tomiki is also "pseudo-aikido" in that they encourage competition,which is generally "condemned" in aikido. :cool:

Excellent resources;
www.aikidojournal.com
www.aikidofaq.com (not the only ones though)


Perhaps if you asked some more questions? Personally,I´m not too keen on picking one over another (possibly affecting your decision,who knows) without knowing what it is that we are after.

[Christopher M]

Some of the Tomiki offshoots, though, have abandoned the Tomiki competitions while retaining randori, off-balance, and the shomen-ate foundation.

[shaolinarab]

hey there,

not to sound cliche, but ever since i saw above the law with steven seagal i knew that his art was something of great value. i actually started studying aikido in college but had to quit b/c of my work-study job, and i am now studying kung fu. however, it is my definite goal to pursue aikido after i spend a number of years in shaolin kung fu.
karate has its merits, but i belive that aikido is a more sophisticated art, both on a martial as well as a philosophical level. you will see what i mean should you choose to practice it. yes, it does take more years to develop a level of proficiency to utilize aikido techniques efficiently, but if you have the patient, you will be glad that you stuck with it. my experience with it gives me the impression that it is one of the most effective styles against multiple attackers, though that training comes alot later.
finally, if you want a taste of aikido, just go to this link below. there are DOZENS of clips to download to your cpu, including some clips from steven seagal. let me know if this helps and if you decide to choose aikido! feel free to email or pm with any questions...
http://yoav.8m.net/AikidoVideoLinks.htm
p.s. make sure you check out the 'big' seagal clip.

[Surferdude]

Aikido is more fluent and has alot of throws and pins. You can also pick up a couple of things on how to use swords,and use aikido while sitting on your knees. Also aikido has no strikes.

Karate is a very hard form of MA, it is less fluent but where it lacks in being fluent it is very powerful...its a very linear form of MA.Karate has many many strikes and blocks, not tooo much kicking though.

If the karate school your going to has many high kicks or kicks that you need to jump and spin in the air for then go to aikido...probably means that the "Dojo" is a tae kwon do school. aka a McDojo

[bodhitree]

With 4 years of Aikido experiance, I think its a good supplement, but I don't think its good enough alone.

[chen zhen]

if its not good ALONE, then how good is it?

[Kristoffer]

Martial arts is what you make them. If you train hard the style doesn't matter. This is my humble opinion

[apoweyn]

Surferdude,


If the karate school your going to has many high kicks or kicks that you need to jump and spin in the air for then go to aikido...probably means that the "Dojo" is a tae kwon do school. aka a McDojo

Give it a rest mate. There are plenty of legitimate taekwondo schools out there. Making them synonymous with McDojo is a cheap shot. And frankly, I expect more from people than that.


Stuart B.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Surferdude
Also aikido has no strikes.

Also, this just isn't true. There are a variety of approaches to striking in aikido. Some styles train some strikes as absolute basics, which the later techniques will be reactions to; as in the chops and front punch in yoshinkan, or front push/palm in tomiki. Some styles train incidental and punctuated strikes to set up and in between the other techniques, particularly the yoshinkan. And some styles see much of aikido explicitly as a pedagogy for training striking, particularly the tomiki.

[Surferdude]

Apoweyn,I'm sorry for that....I lost my head for a moment:o

Chistopher M I did not know that.........:D Actually the dojo i studied in didn't teach strikes:o

[shaolinboxer]

I would try classes at each. Which ever seems like more fun, go for it. It should take about 3 months to be able to evaluate whether or not you are going to like it, and about 3 years to decide whether or not to stick around long term.

[dezhen2001]

hmmm... i trained aikido for around 5 years and still do on and off with friends...

at the dojo i was at we learned "atemi" striking like Christopher M mentioned... basics that aiki techniques are based on... as well as the more incidental strikes you can do when you have your partner in a certain position. Of course you couldnt drill them so much in a class setting as it WAS incidental depending on what happened, distance etc. But if there was a chance to "take the balance" with a strike, we took it.

I have used Aikido in a few little scuffles, more the evasive movement and atemi, as well as the parrying and it worked just fine. Learning how to land without being winded or breaking is also very useful and helped me out when i was mugged :)

just my opinion.

Incidentally i trained karate for 13 years as well and found them both to be great. But i think it depends on your teachers and focus :)

dawood

[Black Jack]

I guess I will be on the other side of the fence. I would not take Aikido if someone payed me money. I will let that statement stand for itself.

It parent art of Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujitsu on the other hand would be a good use of time.

[chen zhen]

I agree with BJ.

Daito-Ryu is simply excellent.

[Former castleva]

But there´s nothing wanting in aikido.
B.J is yet to demonstrate why he thinks about aikido the way he does (but as he said,that´s his business).

[shaolinboxer]

You couldn't pay me enough to stop practicing aikido :).

daito ryu is fine, but it it is philosophically inappropriate for a modern civilian lifestyle, IMO

[Christopher M]

BlackJack - for some interesting perspectives in aikido, you might enjoy http://www.karlgeis.com/origin.htm and it's forerunner http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm

[Surferdude]

So did you chose yet???

['MegaPoint]

There are so many styles (ryu) of karate. There are several schools of aikido. Most karate taught out there is funtime, regimented, competiton oriented stuff. Lots of trophies in your strip mall dojo window brings in the kids ($$$).

Aikido has lost the fighting spirit of its old style JJ/Aikijujutsu parents. It is more of a way to avoid fighting. It is ki enhancement and a philosophical way. There are many good concepts, especially with stepping and movement. Its use of tai-sabaki-like (body change) footwork is very good. It does not emphasize strikes, but some schools do deal with them if it also includes SD in its curriculum. It has left many of the standing principles of JJJ intact. Its groundfighting is limited. It is very Zen oriented and is almost a religion. I don't know about the mumbo-jumbo mixed with MARTIAL (War) Arts. The peace thing is your aim, but in the end true MAs teach one how to protect yourself and those you care about.

Good Okinawan Karate is something to think about. If you want to kick your own a$$ before someone else does (if they ever do), then the good modern Japanese styles to choose would be Kyokushinkai, Shotokan or Wado Ryu. If you choose Korean "karate" go with Kuk Sul Won or Tang Soo Do. Forget the American Kenpo styles. Kajukenbo is good though.

It really depends on what your training for and what styles you have available to you.

Give more details and maybe we can give more definitive answers (opinions) :).

[Xixor]

All righty then. The karate school is a goju-ryu place. I know some of the blackbelts there as good friends, and I see how sharp and effective their training has made them. I know it could work for me. Also, I've had a few lessons with a 3rd degree brown belt friend who goes there. I know the way to effectively punch (karate style), I can twirl the nunchaku around, and know a few things to do from a punch, hook or straight/jab. I've always wanted to become a full blackbelt on my own, but I may know just enough to get by for now. Aikido, on the other hand, is something none of my friends take, and I think it'd be cool to know something they didnt. As for the school, I only know the location. The number was busy when I called earlier, so thats all I have for now.

[shaolinarab]

xixor,
no matter what type of question you pose on these forums, u will get answers from both sides of the argument. however, no two experiences are alike, and while it is always good to hear others' advice and opinions, you should still at least try out both aikido and karate to see what feels right for you at this stage of your training. you have admitted positive reasons for studying both, so you should also step foot in both before making your committment. good luck,

[Xixor]

Sounds like a plan.:cool:

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Xixor
Sounds like a plan.:cool:

so then why the thumbs down? :(


;)

[Xixor]

My bad. Cold fingers or lack of concentration I guess.:D

[bodhitree]

"Martial arts is what you make them. If you train hard the style doesn't matter. This is my humble opinion"Kristoffer
To be proficcent you need to develop skill all around: striking, grapplin, throwing, not just redirection. What happens when someone who is well rooted attacks?

[Xixor]

I guess I'm screwed.
















Or you could just buy a friggin gun.:rolleyes:

[chen zhen]

But that would be no fun at all, u know;)

[Xixor]

Unless you hide the gun and pretend you got super chi and stabbed the guy with your finger. That's my thinking, anyhow.:p

[Black Jack]

daito ryu is fine, but it it is philosophically inappropriate for a modern civilian lifestyle, IMO- What kind of liberal bullsh!t is that?

In my viewpoint Aikido is not very street capable and practical for self defense. Any art that requires the attacker to be dumber than the defender is a farce. The system traps people in a paradigm of fanatsy, almost a willing suspension of disbelief about real violence.

From a physical point of view, it uses pillar assualts, they attack each other like retarded schoolchildren, lead "attackers" and I say attackers with tongue in cheek around in big complicated circles using the myth of blending to flow into joint locks without atemi or at the very least weak atemi. From a standpoint of physical enviroment it gets even worse, phoneboth, hill, bathroom, small and cramped locations.

Plus lets not even go into the knife defenses. Just horrible.

From a more tactical self defense perspective it has no elements of actual confrontation training with untelegraphed unscripted attacks. It grants no experiance in developing a main key in self survival, that being a full out aggressive mindset through hard contact and adrenal stress training.

It uses a ritualized start of combat which grants them the awareness of the initial moment of attack, which means no real ambush concept or pre-contact woofing. No scenrio skills. It has very limited striking tools and any experiance with using them in contact training with a fully resisting opponent bent on really attacking you and not a happy go lucky uke pillar assualt situation. Pre-emptive striking.....nope.....offensive weapon skills.....nope.....aggressive mindset....nope.

I think "A way of Harmony" says it all.

Maybe when it was closer to its Aiki big brother, back when it was Ueshiba Ryu Budo, it had more grease for the ball bearing but now it seems to be more about holistic enlightenment. Does that mean that there are not still some good concepts to be picked up in Aikido, of course you can find some information, but concepts are often used as a very weak hands off approach to teaching bad self defense. Which I believe Aikido is. I know there are offshoots like Yoseikan but still if it walks like a duck.

I am sure some superman somewhere can make Aikdio work but for us mere mortals I stand by my judgement.

[Christopher M]

BlackJack - I guess you didn't read the articles I linked. You're judging aikido by the lowest common denominator though. Randori, for example, is a central component of the Tomiki style offshoots... this would contradict the shortcomings you note above.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Surferdude
Apoweyn,I'm sorry for that....I lost my head for a moment:o

Chistopher M I did not know that.........:D Actually the dojo i studied in didn't teach strikes:o

No worries. But remember that for some of us, taekwondo constituted a big and worthwhile part of our education.


Stuart B.

[shaolinboxer]

"daito ryu is fine, but it it is philosophically inappropriate for a modern civilian lifestyle, IMO- What kind of liberal bullsh!t is that?"

Daito Ryu and other, older koryu teach aiki as a form of deception. For example, Araki ryu's first teaching is to learn to serve to tea to a guest with sincerity, then crush his windpipe and kill him with the tray. The old concept of aiki is to open your heart to another person so that you may make them voulnerable enough to murder them.

Also, old ryu teaching are extremely cultist, as one of the primary affective goal of training was to condition the pratitioner to place the solidarity of a group over the value of their own life.

It's like navy seal training, which is clearly and deliberately not designed for civilians.

How long did you study aikido for, Black Jack?

[shaolinboxer]

"daito ryu is fine, but it it is philosophically inappropriate for a modern civilian lifestyle, IMO- What kind of liberal bullsh!t is that?"

Daito Ryu and other, older koryu teach aiki as a form of deception. For example, Araki ryu's first teaching is to learn to serve to tea to a guest with sincerity, then crush his windpipe and kill him with the tray. The old concept of aiki is to open your heart to another person so that you may make them voulnerable enough to murder them.

Also, old ryu teaching are extremely cultist, as one of the primary affective goal of training was to condition the pratitioner to place the solidarity of a group over the value of their own life.

It's like navy seal training, which is clearly and deliberately not designed for civilians.

How long did you study aikido for, Black Jack?

[shaolinboxer]

"daito ryu is fine, but it it is philosophically inappropriate for a modern civilian lifestyle, IMO- What kind of liberal bullsh!t is that?"

Daito Ryu and other, older koryu teach aiki as a form of deception. For example, Araki ryu's first teaching is to learn to serve to tea to a guest with sincerity, then crush his windpipe and kill him with the tray. The old concept of aiki is to open your heart to another person so that you may make them voulnerable enough to murder them.

Also, old ryu teaching are extremely cultist, as one of the primary affective goal of training was to condition the pratitioner to place the solidarity of a group over the value of their own life.

It's like navy seal training, which is clearly and deliberately not designed for civilians.

How long did you study aikido for, Black Jack?

[Black Jack]

I did not get a chance to get to them.

If you find merit in what you do then that is great, I have no plans to get into a deep discussion about style, chalk it up to my own shortcommings, and maybe I am talking about the lowest common demoniator but IMO the highest common denominator in Aikido is not that high and much of it should not be labeled self defense.

Tomiki-ryu was invented to put atemi back into Aikdio. That alone says something. Back in the day Ueshiba was teaching japenese soliders to kill using Aikijujitsu. Aikido came later after a gulity conscience. Takeda would vomit in his grave if he saw what O-Sensei has transformed his art into.

I would wager Ueshiba would vomit to at the look at "most" of modern Aikido schools. We are talking about a ex-solider after all who fought in Mongolia.

Cheers

[Black Jack]

That's still bed wetting liberal bullsh!t and I am not touching that nonsense with a ten foot pole. One viewpoint is about real world self defense. The other is garbage about blending and harmony.

I told you I have not studied aikido and would not for all the money in the world. Common sense dictates I that if I stick my hand in a fire I will get burned. Same principle here.

One of my training partners and a friend is Aiki-Jujitsu man and ex-aikido player. Lets just say all the time he put in with aikido was just a waste of time. Something he wishes he could of get back.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Black Jack
If you find merit in what you do then that is great

I don't practice aikido.


IMO the highest common denominator in Aikido is not that high and much of it should not be labeled self defense.

My point was that there were styles of aikido which specifically developed in response to the criticisms you made. I'm supposing simply you're unfamiliar with these developments; which has obvious implications for your remarks is all.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by Xixor
All righty then. The karate school is a goju-ryu place. I know some of the blackbelts there as good friends, and I see how sharp and effective their training has made them. I know it could work for me. Also, I've had a few lessons with a 3rd degree brown belt friend who goes there. I know the way to effectively punch (karate style), I can twirl the nunchaku around, and know a few things to do from a punch, hook or straight/jab. I've always wanted to become a full blackbelt on my own, but I may know just enough to get by for now. Aikido, on the other hand, is something none of my friends take, and I think it'd be cool to know something they didnt. As for the school, I only know the location. The number was busy when I called earlier, so thats all I have for now.

Goju is cool, but I like it the least out of the 3 major Okinawan ryu. I would place Shorin Ryu first (especially Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox) and Uechi Ryu in a very close second, for fighting I mean. Goju can be damaging to your health, especially if they do ibuki breathing with their Sanchin kata. It is supposedly an "internal" system, but it looks and trains very hard. It involves lots of slap-tag sparring. I like it about the same as Kyokushinkai. Twirling the chux means nothing. The nunchaku are probably the least respected of the Okinawan weapons (among Ryukyuan Kobudo/Kobujutsu sensei).

Strive for realization and rounding yourself off as a human. Forget about the BB and it will come fast. I would say that Goju is more real world fighting oriented, compared to Aikido. Try both, and don't let the Aikido sensei get away with getting you to comply with throws and techs. Resist like someone on the street would, but be smart about it and don't hurt him or yourself. If he can really do things to you then try it for awhile.

Personally it won't work on me. I think the tuite (grappling) inherent in Goju is superior. It's more like mean Aikijutsu. "Tenderizing" the meat is the secret ;)..

Good luck!

[shaolinboxer]

Where does your friend study aiki-jujustsu? there are very few teachers that actually teach aiki-jutjutsu, rather than modified aikido/ hapkido.

If you only train to defend againt violent encounters... well I'd say you are missing out on quite a bit.

Would you advocate military assasination training for children?

[Black Jack]

You either are missing the point or are never intended to get it anyway.

Where my friend studies is none of your concern, all that would do is open up the typical KFO counterpoint of that is not real kung fu, which is about as lame as it gets.

People train for different reasons and often in combination, self defense, fun, fitness, historical, culture, mystical dog crap, what have you. You take your route and I will take mine. To me undertaking martial arts and self defense training is about functional physical and mental survival skills and most of all sheer enjoyment.

Would you advocate military assasination training for children-

I am not going to even bother with that nonsense.

ChrisM- That was more a general comment than really directed towards you bro. I appreciate the info.

Cheers

[shaolinboxer]

"To me undertaking martial arts and self defense training is about functional physical and mental survival skills and most of all sheer enjoyment."

Which is an excellent reason to study aikido :).

Functionality is relative.

[Christopher M]

I gotcha. Thanks.