Teaching for money

[quiet man]

Is your sifu (sensei, guru, ...) a professional teacher? Is his occupation "MA instructor"?

Mine isn't. He's got an university degree and a day job (he teaches only in the evening and on weekends). He's always emphasizing this fact, saying he didn't open his school to make money. "I'm not a member of any organization, I don't have any obligations, I teach who I want to teach". This is very important to him, because he also sees this as a potential threat to teacher's integrity (you know: "I need the money, so I'll teach you slowly..."). He says "I teach for a price, but not because of the price".

Do you think instructors should be financially independent in such a way?
Please discuss.

[MasterKiller]

My Sifu is the same way. He likes it that way because he can run the class however he wants without having to worry about attendance/income dropping.

However, I think if you are a younger teacher, who is training full-time and teaching full-time, it would be very difficult to have a day job and be able to divide your time between working, teaching and training.

Also, because he has a day job, we only have night classes. We could probably fill classes all day long, but the opportunity is limited by his schedule. So, people working nights and stay-at-home moms who can't necessarily train after 5:30 are not able to train with us.

[Shaolin-Do]

Im actually not sure if my sifu has a day job or not... I know my SC sifu does.... As long as they teach like they were teaching for free, it doesnt really matter... I feel its reasonable for an instructor to charge, as they are offering a service at the expense of their own time. Also, rent can be pretty expensive at most business complex's, and for this reason alone a sifu may charge...

[MasterKiller]

SD,
The difference QM is getting at, I think, is between teachers who charge to keep the place open, and teachers who charge to support their families. Once your sole means of income is your school, you have to start running it more like a business with customers than a school with students.

[quiet man]

(edit - I see MK already made my point clear)

I'm not saying my sifu teaches for free (he doesn't), because 1) running the school costs money, and 2) education costs money (I have no problem with that). I merely meant he could close the school tomorrow, beacuse he doesn't NEED that money.

A few years ago, we broke up with a well known european organization, whose head didn't have a day job and tried to induce more and more fees for the members. My sifu said of him "Instead of living for WC, he wanted to live off it", and IMHO that's the main problem.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ahh...
I dont really have a problem if someones sole job is a martial arts instructor, as long as they teach how things should be taught... Its ok to make your living off it I guess... Just so long as you dont treat the students like customers, treat them like students. Give the impression that you want to TEACH, not want their money.
My SC instructor only will charge if the mats become damaged, or we want other equipment. His sole aim is to have students who want to learn, and to keep the art alive.

[Brad]

Martial arts instruction is my teacher's sole source of income. He's been a full time martial artist for nearly 60 years, is 65 years old and speaks almost no English. Not much else he can do here in the US :p

[shaolinboxer]

My instructor lived a an uchideshi (live in disciple) of Morehei Ueshiba until his death in 1969. He came to New York with Koichi Tohei and was the head instructor for the Ki Society in the Eastern US until 1987. At that time he went back to Japan to work in his family's business, resigning from the Ki Society. He kept in close contact with his students here in the US, and offered to return and teach as long as he did not have to do anything but teach. His students found him a space for a school, and incorporated as a not for profit, Shin Budo Kai, in 1988. Since then SBK has run on a month to month budget, and our instructor draws a minimal salary so that he can afford to live in an apartment with his wife. We pay for his liability insurace and life insurace out of our own pockets (as sustaining members). Sustaining members also fund new dojo contruction on their own personal loans, donate things like gatorade and toletries, and teach without pay. All projects are done on our own time (web sites, grant writing, daily maintenance). I myself spent 6 months working on our new space without financial compensation. We also offer programs for groups of kids, such as outward bound, without charge. It is all well worth the effort.

[Shaolinlueb]

my sifu only does the school.

[Dark Knight]

I have seen both. Just because you teach full time and make a good living does not mean you have to cheat people. I had an instructor that made over $100,000.00 a year and was a top instructor. You felt he was your dad that was mentoring you.

I have met instructors making $25,000.00 a year who lie about everything.

I know a guy in NY who makes close to a million a year, he teaches Kenpo but it looks like TKD. A guy in Reno NV was making over 60 thousand a month, teaches TKD. A guy in NH in a town of 5,000 people has over 500 students, his average student has been with him for 12 years, he teaches an Okinawan style and trains hard.

It depends on your personality, and desires. Some people don’t want to teach hard core Martial Arts and do it for the exciting part. Integrity counts and people see through it, you can make a lot of money, but it takes time and work.

Teaching part time is harder; you burn out because you don’t have time for yourself and family.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
I know a guy in NY who makes close to a million a year, he teaches Kenpo but it looks like TKD. A guy in Reno NV was making over 60 thousand a month, teaches TKD. A guy in NH in a town of 5,000 people has over 500 students, his average student has been with him for 12 years, he teaches an Okinawan style and trains hard.
DANG! We've been sitting on this gold mine for so long and didn't know it. That is amazing!

I guess the distinction needs to be made of what a customer is. The tone of this thread is it is someone you only want money from, and you treat them as such. In many cases I would say this is correct. However, if we treated customers the way they were treated years ago this wouldn't be a problem. Instead customers are seen as annoying people that take up your time and you wish they would give you their money and get out of your way. I think you can treat a person as a customer and a student.

Hmmm .... I was going to go into more detail but my belly is saying feed me. So I will cut it at that.

[Dark Knight]

You have to find what the customer wants. The majority of people in the Martial Arts dont really want to train hard or for combat. They want a hobby that they enjoy. So do you tell them to suck it up and put the gloves on? Throw them out for being weak? Or do you find where they want to be in life and help them accomplish it.

What ever it may be they want from the martial Arts.

[Oso]

DK, I agree w/ both your posts, nicely said.

as an OT aside, just made my hotel res for the 3rd.

make sure you introduce yourself, would ya?

unless I'm gonna have to guess who the caped crusader is all weekend.;)

[shaolinboxer]

I think making money doing what you love is the expression of the american dream.

If you can do it, and you wanna do it, do it!

However, if you are a, say, wing chun sifu and you find yourself teaching cardio kick to make bucks...well then are you still doing what you love?

Also, with rent, liability, and general overhead to consider...well martial arts schools are like restaurants. They come and go, and most of them fail. Some become chains, some have multi locations but aren't like full franchises, some have one location so that they can have better quality control.

You have to expect fluctuations in the economy which will effect student enrollment.

Our school, for example, will never go under. However, we have limitations on our growth because we choose to remain non-profit and do not focus on effective marketing. Often we say that our instructor, who is very "traditional" and considers martial arts as a "way" above all aspects, is our biggest asset and our biggest liability.

While he is alive the school will function this way, but I have a feeling that after he passes away, in 20 years or so, things will change or we will die out.

[Ravenshaw]

My sifu charges for lessons, but they do not make up his income. With the building he has for the school/warehouse/office (it's big), the tuition probably doesn't even cover payments on it. It would be more lucrative for him to close the school and focus on the business. But even his business prospers as a result of his teaching, and many of you have seen his exhaustive series of instructional tapes.

I honestly don't think he would continue to teach if he didn't enjoy it and the quality of his teaching is very high, if traditional (i.e. teach a class for a half-hour to an hour, then rightfully expect everyone to practice many times between classes; he doesn't seem to like reviewing more than is required).

[Oso]

it's an exchange. the commonest form of exchange in the world is money. as long as the rate of exchange is comperable then no harm.

i personally have offered free one on one sessions or reduced rates or waived a month if the student was hard up for cash. i've done this most especially if a student is dedicated and earnest about training.