ground/shoot-fighting

[zen_celt]

A while ago, I was told that once on the ground all of the training martial artists go through becomes worthless. I have found this to be somewhat true. I was sparring with a friend when he performed a move from what he calls shoot-fighting. I was in a cat stance and he dove for my front leg, lifted it and flipped me or something. All I know is that I was face down on the ground and he was on top of me with his hand at my throat. Also, my brother is a wrestler and while I can beat him in a stand-up fight, the second he gets me on the ground it's pretty much over unless I can shock him enough with a good hit to squirm around and get some space. This almost never happens, unfortunately. If anyone has some advice for a situation like this, I would appreciate it. I am a fairly small (6ft 150lbs) person compared to the guys i spar with and am getting tired of losing with my face in the mud. :)

[JerryLove]

"I was told that once on the ground all of the training martial artists go through becomes worthless."

You answerd your own question when talking about the ground skills of shoot fighters and wrestlers (both martial arts). If you are finding *your* training ineffective against takedowns or on the ground, then you are seeing a hole in your material, not in the material of all arts.

You may want to cross-train, you may want to change arts, you may want to continue what you are doing. That decision is one you need to make, but if you are studying for the purpose of fighting, you really should do something about that deficency.

[old jong]

Just curious...When you "sparr"like that,do you have the intent to punch the guy as hard as you can or at least as hard as he get you on the ground?
;)

C'est la vie!

[zen_celt]

When I spar I always hit as hard as I can short of hitting pressure points and breaking bones. In a real fight, however, I always go full speed/ anything goes.
Jerry- I think I should cross train and generally pick and choose different techniques form various styles to suit the situation I'm in. I was just curious if anyone had some ideas or techniques they could point me in the direction of, specifically how to keep from being taken to the ground.

[old jong]

When you spar you will spare the guy in a sense,you will not use all you have to stop him!
When a grappler spar,he will go "full contact" to bring the you down.He knows that he wont hurt you seriously if you are a sparring partner and not a real ennemy!
This is a sparring advantage a wrestler has over any striker. But it is not a real fight!
Just an opinion.Don't throw fire balls at me!
:rolleyes:

C'est la vie!

[Merryprankster]

Tell your brother to teach you how to sprawl. It's the single best defense to leg attacks. Learn the intracacies of sprawling. If you can keep the fight standing, you can dictate the range of the fight.

It's true that you won't hit as hard as humanly possible in a sparring match... and your strikes might end it in a real fight! But they might not, and quite frankly, I don't want to be on the ground with somebody who is better than me there, because my mobility is limited, and I'll have a hard time getting away while they tatoo me with blows...

[YiLiChuan2]

Old Jong is totally right. I guarantee you that if you hit them with some amount of force that would stop them, they would get very mad at you because you "hit" them. Most of the time they will not be willing to let perform your techniques on them. That's why I avoid "sparring" grapplers.
But if I find myself on the ground, I will do anything I need to do to get myself out of the situation. I will bite, poke, tear, rip, twist, break and anything else I can think of.
But that's just my 2 cents

[JerryLove]

If you are planning on "biting, poking, gouging" etc. I would really recommend you do that early and often. If you wait until you are disadvantaged (in your example, after you are already down), you make it likely you will loose anyway, only now to someone that wants revenge.