All Shaolin Do threads merged here, please use this thread

[Fu-Pow]

1)DUBIOUS HISTORY

Shaolin Do history (according to shaolincenter.com) claims that a monk with hypertrichosis named Su Kong Tai Djin (1849-1929) was raised in the Fukien Shaolin temple and learned all their sets.

Then another student name Ie Chang Ming (1880-1976) trained there and learned all there was to learn and left the temple to teach in Singapore.

Cross-examination:

Where was this Fukien shaolin temple that these two "monks" trained at?
Only recently has anything been found that even resembles a Southern Shaolin Temple. According to legend it was destroyed in the early Ching dynasty which began in 1644. The archeological evidence seems to support this. 1850 is not early Ching dynasty. Furthermore if the temple had existed around 50-100 years ago when the dog face monk and his student supposedly trained there don't you think that other people in the area would have known about the temple? And yet this temple was highly disputed to even exist until it was discovered in the last couple of years. The temple that exist there now was built in 1991.

2) FORMS

According to swshaolin.com

"Since its creation, Shaolin has collected, refined and retained over 980 katas (forms), representing more than 50 different open hand systems and many different weapons. Contrary to the popular belief that Shaolin monks only practiced the "hard styles", every major form of internal kung fu was practiced in the Shaolin temples. This includes every major family of Tai Chi and Pa Kua, as well as Hsing Ie and the very rare Liu Hsing (meteor fist). Shaolin monks also possessed an awesome body of knowledge on esoteric Taoist and Buddhist Chi Kung (breath training) and Nei Kung (internal training) techniques."

***Are we to believe that Sin The knows 980 forms? My style Choy Lay Fut has 200 forms and even that is considered excessive. And obviously not every practioner knows every form.
Furthermore, the part about all these styles like Pa Kua, Xing Yi and Taiji being practiced in the temple is complete bull****.

Shaolin Ie Lu Lian Chien Gun (1st road of shaolin connected sticks)
1st road of Shaolin connected sticks (nunchaku)
2nd Road of Shaolin Connected sticks (nunchuku) (to be taught March 2003)

***"Shaolin connected sticks?" aka Nunchuks are not a Chinese weapon. There are no Chinese styles as far as I know that use nunchuks.


Tie Cha Chuan (sai weapon)

***Sai is also not a traditional Chinese weapon. Was this practiced in the temple?

Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan (64)
Classical 8-section Pa Kua Chang
Shing Yi 5 roads
Shing Yi 5 roads linked form
Shing Yi 12 animal forms
Shing Yi 2 man set
Yang Jia Tai Chi Jian (Tai Chi sword)
Black Belt 3rd - 4th degree (4 years required to complete this level)
Tang Lang Chien -Praying Mantis Fist
Yang Se Tai Chi Tao -Tai Chi Broadsword
Tai Chi Tao Tue Ta -Tai Chi Broadsword 2 man set
Chen Tai Chi Chuan -Chen Tai Chi New Generation 83 Posture
Pa Kua Pa Sing Chang -8 Animal Pa Kua Palm
Praying Mantis System
Pa Kua Spear
Pa Kua Wu Tze kun (sun moon fork)
Snake (Python) Pa Kua Chang from E-Mei

***None of the forms listed above are Shaolin forms. Therefore even if the dog face monk learned all the forms of the so called "Fukien "Shaolin Temple he would not have learned these.
So where did these forms come from? Who certified any Shaolin Do instructor to teach these forms? Xing Yi, Pa Kua and Taiji are all systems unto themselves and were not taught in any Shaolin temple and certainly not under these names. Where did these forms come from? They don't just appear. They come from somewhere. Further, most of these forms are Northern Chinese in origin. How would they have ended up in the Fukien Shaolin Temple? Why do most styles of Southern origin look nothing like these forms that were supposedly taught in the Southern Temple? For example, Hung Ga, CLF, Mok Ga, Bak Mei, Li Ga, Choy Ga all claim Shaolin origins and all share similiarities yet very few with Pa Kua, Xing Yi or Taiji?

3) TRADITIONS

Background:

Traditionally, students of Chinese kung fu would not wear anything special to kung fu. They would wear there work clothes. These were traditional Chinese pants that required a sash to be held up and traditional chinese coat with hooked buttons.
When kung fu came to the western world and with the adancement of the textiles industries students changed to loose fitting elastic waisted pants and tshirts. The "traditional" outfit is usually only worn for special performances. The sash remains fixture of the uniform mainly because certain sash colors became associated with certain styles. Sash color had nothing to do with advancement or rank. In addition shoes were worn during training because training might have taken place outside or the pracitioners may have had to be ready to leave at anytime.

Shaolin Do:

Shaolin Do wears a traditional JAPANESE karate Gi. They have a belt grading. They don't wear shoes when they train. These are all the hallmarks of traditional KARATE aka JAPANESE training. Shaolin Do (according to shaolincenter.com) claims that:

"Grand Master Ming left China and settled in Bandung, Indonesia where he began to teach the Shaolin art. In Indonesia a law was passed prohibiting the teaching of Chinese Martial Arts. Grand Master Ie circumvented this law by adopting many of the trappings of the Japanese styles of martial arts. He changed the name from Shaolin Tao to Shaolin Do. He changed the uniforms from the classical Chinese styles to the Japanese karate gi's. He also used Japanese belts instead of the Chinese sash and instituted a ranking system similar to the Japanese using Japanese names. The changes, although cosmetic, were enough for the authorities and he was allowed to continue to teach."

Cross examination:

Can anyone verify this law? Anyone in Indonesia. This whole story sounds concocted. Why would they ban only Chinese martial arts as opposed to all martial arts? It seems hokey that anyone would pass a law that was that specific. Further, what are the chances that a native born Chinese would just nonchalantly pick up the trappings of Japanese dress. The Chinese and Japanese have not always had very amicable opinions of each other. I have a hard time imagining this scenario especially 50 years ago.

More to come......

[Shaolin-Do]

...
Have you not realized that no one cares yet?
May as well delete this thread...
(no I didnt bother reading it, and no Im not going to bother arguing with you, why not use your time posting to post something intelligent?)

[diego]

about the indo thing....if cma was banned and doa and tao is just mandarin and cantonese (i'm right right?) then what was the point in changing the name to a diff' dialect of chinese if chinese arts were banned?.

[PHILBERT]

The nunchaku can be found in alot of different coutnries, just not Okinawa or Japan. There probably are some systems of CMA that use the nunchaku. As for the sai, Ngo Cho uses the sai in there system of fighting.

[bobojoe02]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
...
Have you not realized that no one cares yet?
May as well delete this thread...
(no I didnt bother reading it, and no Im not going to bother arguing with you, why not use your time posting to post something intelligent?)

^^^^^^
Yep, and we do care, fantasy dan, this shaolin do-do has his own fantasy theories and will not consider the FACTS. But, we who have studied know these fishy shaolin do-do fantasies and will not allow one to get away with such crap. Karate do it is and the Indo connection is bull, too.

Respect,
Bo

[CaptinPickAxe]

Talkin' about kicking a dead horse, this thread is so played out... I've only been here a month, and I'm already sick of it. Find something better to B*tch about.

a little word of advice for those who have to make fun of SD...

[Fu-Pow]

Funny how when I actually provide some factual evidence from the Shaolin Do websites you guys starting calling this issue a dead horse.

I thought you guys were the big experts on your art. What's the matter you don't have any answers to my criticisms???

It's much easier to sit and B|TCH about how it's all opinion and I'm such an evil a$$ho|e. . When I actually give you the facts you wimp out... now respond GOD**** IT!!!!

Or you just prove that your full of SH|T and your art is a fraud.

[joedoe]

Philbert is correct. Ngor Chor has the sai.

[Laughing Cow]

Dead Horsey Award time.

:D

[CaptinPickAxe]

you either have some serious anger managment problems or you see you have to justify your existance by bashing other peoples MA. Pesonally, I don't care about SD. Yes, I took it, No, I never will again. But, You don't see me BEATING THE DEAD HORSE. I don't care if people choose to spend money on Shaolin-Do, and neither should you. Its none of your business what people want to do...SO LET IT BE

[themeecer]

Almost everyone of these points have been addressed. The only one, and the first time I have ever heard it, was the question about the Fukien temple. I'll have to do some research on this one.

At least one of your points I don't even agree with. I have never heard of a law that prevented teaching of Chinese martial arts in Indonesia.

For everything else just search the boards.

[Evad]

I will respond to your research one by one as I have time. Also, I will make no claims against you that my rebuttals are absolute FACT, but I will maintain that what we contend with in our material is legitimately POSSIBLE.


Originally posted by Fu-Pow
1)DUBIOUS HISTORY

Shaolin Do history (according to shaolincenter.com) claims that a monk with hypertrichosis named Su Kong Tai Djin (1849-1929) was raised in the Fukien Shaolin temple and learned all their sets.

Then another student name Ie Chang Ming (1880-1976) trained there and learned all there was to learn and left the temple to teach in Singapore.

Correction, you did not state accurately the 'account' of Grandmaster Ie. He was a monk at the temple with Su, however he did not 'learn all there was to learn and leave to teach in Singapore' he left the temple and continued to study with Su Kong for several years. After Su Kongs death and during the turbulent times in china with the Boxer Rebellion and the cultural revolution that would soon take place, Grand Master Ie and several of his new colleagues fled China to Indonesia.

MANY other masters of that generation fled China to foreign lands as well. It's a well known fact that during these chaotic decades in that country many masters and styles were destroyed or nearly destroyed. Martial arts training was banned after the communist's took control and whole family's and well known master's were labeled enemies of the state and imprisoned or put to death. A tremendous amount of 'traditional' knowledge and training techniques was forever lost with the passing of these great teachers. IT'S POSSIBLE, that GrandMaster Ie was a student of these old styles and training who escaped with some of his comtemporaries to Indonesia. When the modern China circa late '60's early '70's realized that they could not fully repress the heritage of it's martial arts, it officially adopted it an international treasure and began sponsoring 'wushu' competitions.


Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Cross-examination:

Where was this Fukien shaolin temple that these two "monks" trained at?
Only recently has anything been found that even resembles a Southern Shaolin Temple. According to legend it was destroyed in the early Ching dynasty which began in 1644. The archeological evidence seems to support this. 1850 is not early Ching dynasty. Furthermore if the temple had existed around 50-100 years ago when the dog face monk and his student supposedly trained there don't you think that other people in the area would have known about the temple? And yet this temple was highly disputed to even exist until it was discovered in the last couple of years. The temple that exist there now was built in 1991.


Ok, you have stated that 'only recently has anything been found' that substantiates the existence of a southern temple. Master Sin has been stating it's existence since his first student in the '60's. This historical dispute is finally getting some recent attention, but Master Sin and no doubt many many others have maintained that there was indeed a temple in Fukien province and maybe only in legends. The truth is in the details and as such IT'S POSSIBLE that the archeological evidence may resolve the issue. If it is proven that a temple did exist and survived until 50-100 years ago, what then? We will receive some small vindication. Neither of us are qualified enough to conclude based upon current research that it did or did not exist.

Consider this....China was a great mystery to most of the world community until Richard Nixon opened the doors to the country with his visit as president. This means that a large part of what we know about China and it's history, it's local legends, etc is still in it's infantcy. Nearly one out of every six people in the WORLD are chinese. That's over a BILLION people with a BILLION different views. So how many of those BILLION people (or whatever the census was at the time) was living in the vicinity of the alleged temple? How many of those 'local's that survived the upheaval of their society remember the temple that are untraceable today? Of those that knew anything about the temple, would they be eager to speak up and be noticed, or would they deny knowledge in order to remain safe from the 'cleansing' that was taking place all around them?

According the stories about Su Kong it is said that they were tipped off that they were about to be beseiged and destroyed, and it was decided that rather than let that happen, they would voluntarily flee the temple and destroy it themselves. IT'S POSSIBLE, if the temple survived until the late 1800's early 1900's that after it's destruction, something else could have been built on top of it's location. China has a population explosion going on at the time that requires a lot of valuable space. Current archeological research is looking for something 'old' and IT'S POSSIBLE that no one is looking for something 'recent.' Maybe the temple existed during the Ching dynasty was destroyed and then rebuilt at a new secret and secluded location that survived until recent times. Why would anyone want to reestablish a temple (that was destroyed) in a known location and chance being destroyed again? Makes sense to relocate and take extra security measures to protect the new temple and remain safe.

This is all hypothetical and serves only to illustrate that IT IS A POSSIBILITY that we just flat out don't know the details of a fukien temple.

More to come....

[_William_]

Shaolin Ie Lu Lian Chien Gun (1st road of shaolin connected sticks)
1st road of Shaolin connected sticks (nunchaku)
2nd Road of Shaolin Connected sticks (nunchuku) (to be taught March 2003)

***"Shaolin connected sticks?" aka Nunchuks are not a Chinese weapon. There are no Chinese styles as far as I know that use nunchuks.


CMA does in fact have both 2 and 3 sectioned staffs, which I guess you could call "Nunchucks".

Hope this helps.

[Serpent]

If he was hiding the art's Chinese origins, why change the Dao to Do but leave in the word Shaolin!? That makes no sense at all.

Even if he called it Shorinji Do (which is Japanese for Shaolin Way) it would still mean that the art was CHinese. No one is so stupid as to think that it's no longer CHinese because the name is Japanese. It makes no sense at all.

[PHILBERT]

See, here is what I find funny.

First of all, how many people who bash Shaolin-Do have any experience with it? Who here has met, observed a class, or even fought a practioner of the art? Even if you have, faceless bashing of the art shows one's own immaturity.

Second of all, what about other "unusual" arts? We got Chung Moo Quan or whatever, who has a Grandmaster who claims he can do a flying sidekick off an 11 story building. No one here creates 20 threads a week bashing that. He also claims that every woman he slept with either kills herself or becomes a nun because he is so great in bed.

Thirdly, what about Temple Kung Fu? We got O.E. Simon who runs around claiming to be some Omnipotent being, they have cult practices, etc. No one bashes them.

Only Shaolin-Do of the "bashed" arts gets bashed the most. The 3 most bashed have to be Shaolin-Do, Temple Kung Fu and Chung Moo Quan. The only thing unusual about Shaolin-Do other than the Chewbacca thing (which no one here has yet to confirm OR deny an existence of such a being) is the 980 forms or whatever that encompasses the art. And some people here have even claimed more forms are added to it from outside practioners. Meaning they go up to a 7* guy and he shows them some forms, some techniques and they incorporate them into there own style.

[CaptinPickAxe]

PHIL, the chewbacca thing is a real disease. I saw two circus actors (or whatever you call them) who had the disease on Discovery.

[themeecer]

CPA, was that the special on circus geeks? If so I showed that to one of my high school classes once, that thing was great.

By the way geek means a side show performer, not the needle neck you knew in highschool that couldn't get a date.

[Laughing Cow]

It was a show about werewolfs or similar and they showed and researched a circus family in mexico(methinks) that have those symptoms.

Sometimes it seems to skip a generation.

It is a medical recognised condition.

Cheers.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Your exactly right, LC.
It was on Lycanthropy.

[MonkeyKing]

the condition inquestion is congenital hypertrichosis lanuginosa, here's some info:

www.keratin.com/ah/ah007.shtml

Also, a Circus geek is the dude or dudette who bites the heads off of chickens at the sideshow.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
PHIL, the chewbacca thing is a real disease. I saw two circus actors (or whatever you call them) who had the disease on Discovery.

Yes, I know it exists. I saw an episode of Leeza once (before it got canceled) with 2 brothers on there who had it. My mom didn't believe such a thing existed and it was a load of crap.

[Brad]

every major form of internal kung fu was practiced in the Shaolin temples. This includes every major family of Tai Chi
Uhh... no. Unless you're counting the modern temple, then probably yes :D If not then it's just a silly statement...

[Brad]

Second of all, what about other "unusual" arts? We got Chung Moo Quan or whatever, who has a Grandmaster who claims he can do a flying sidekick off an 11 story building. No one here creates 20 threads a week bashing that. He also claims that every woman he slept with either kills herself or becomes a nun because he is so great in bed.
Well, there's not much to say in regards to CMD... someone posts a thread about it saying,"CMD is fake!!! Stay away!!!!" then everyone else just says," yup... sure is"... threads where there's a near 100% agreement don't last that long, lol. The few CMDers that I have seen online defending their style could barely comunicate with anyone else because of their fanatical cult speak ;) Sort of the same situation with Temple kungfu... you can put up as many pro-temple arguments as you like in favor of the place, but the Simon still dresses like the pope and bills himself a spiritual leader ;) Can't put up much of a fight with that, lol

:D

[bobojoe02]

Joe Schaefer is shaolin-do. whew, what redneck part of the woods yall came from, joe? Ole Miss, Alabam, or Kentucky? course the Yellow Rose and Davy Crockett might be in your blue jeans, but they would not back down like you did.

Yellow Belt to Blue Belt

-- Short Kata 11-15
Ippon Kumite

One Step Sparring 1-9
-- Sparring Techniques 1-10
-- Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Se Mong Tau Lie Four Door Way Break
Fei Foo Tzu Tung Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave
Ippon Kumite??? Hey, hey, hey? That's ahhh like a real Chinese word NOT, huh?

[Surferdude]

You ok???:confused:

[CaptinPickAxe]

no, he's got post-too-many-threads-on-the-same-subject syndrome, and it seems to have completely effected his reasoning.

Joe is in Austin, Texas, son. And I think you'r barkin' up the wrong tree there. He's a bad man, slugger. He could easily hand your @ss, all wrapped up and pretty.

[Surferdude]

ok..................

[CaptinPickAxe]

sorry, surferdude, should of put a space between the two rants....
the second part was for Doo-DooJoe.

[crazymaddrunk]

Before I state this I know I'm about to maybe get kicked off this board, but that's OK. Then again, maybe I won't. I don't have a lot of friends on here anyway (doesn't break my heart).

In particular, Fool-Pow and joejoejoejoe (you know the idiot). Put your money where your mouth is. I hereby issue you to a NHB match (sounds politically correct, yes?).

If anyone out there will sponsor us to get together and go at it, please send offers via PM. I personally think they are a bunch of cowards that hide behind the keyboard. I guess we'll see.

I want the event video-taped. I want NO money, just witnesses. I will fight both of them back-to-back, in 1 10-minute round.

Please, we'll need a school, park, wherever we can get away with it legally, sanctioning it a NHB/MMA match. You have to understand it must be legal for me. I'm already beginning to salivate.

And please, none of this "you're causing disrespect to your art" or "this is not what martial arts are all about"... I know longer practice SD, but loved the art enough to back up it's name.

[CaptinPickAxe]

your drunk, old man...sleep it off

[Brad]

Before I state this I know I'm about to maybe get kicked off this board, but that's OK. Then again, maybe I won't. I don't have a lot of friends on here anyway (doesn't break my heart).
If Bobojoew, whatever his name is, hasn't been kicked off, I don't think you will either, lol :D

BTW, I tried to bump two of the anti Shaolin-Do threads off the board, but it seems like 3 more idiot posts have poped up in it's place... so I give up, lol, my connection is not fast enough... :P

[rubthebuddha]

let's see here ... a few hundred bucks to get fu-pow from the other side of the country, and a couple thousand to get joedoe from the other side of the world = a few thousand bucks to have a fight no one gives a **** about.

claiming someone's a coward while hiding behind a challenge that everyone here knows would never happen is even worse.

let it go, cmd. if it's respect you want, you won't get it by challenging, or even winning. if you want people to lay off SD, then take up advocacy of SD and defend it rather than insult those who denounce it. and if someone just won't lay off, why do you even care what they have to say?

example: while many people here rip on SD in general, the person going by the name of shaolin-do has earned the respect of many on here by ignoring the rants and just being a fun dude. judge pen has earned the respect of people by being intelligent and humble. even meecer is wedging himself in -- the lousy bum that he is (;)).

how about some bluntness (no, african tiger, i don't mean that):

if you want our respect, earn it the way other people do here -- with intelligent conversation. we wouldn't give two ****s if merryprankster was a naga champion if he was an assmunch about it.

if you want to prove something to us, do it with your brains, because beating up on joedoe and fu-pow doesn't prove anything -- we all know their technique rivals that of a tae-bo dropout.

and if you don't find what you want in any of this, you'd probably be better elsewhere. this is a forum for talking and discussing, and sometimes this can get heated. that's ok -- it's no different than training anyway. and, like training, there are friendly jabs, because i know joe doe and probably fu pow could hand me my ass in the ring. :)

[Laughing Cow]

RTB.

What you been smoking, NOBDOY is talking about Joedoe.

The 2nd party is BOBOJOE02.

[joedoe]

I don't think he was talking about me - I think he was talking about bobojoe or something.

Anyway, I am too much of a coward to fly half way around the world for a fight. But if you want to fly me half way around the world I will forfeit and have a beer with you instead :D

[themeecer]

Hey CMD, I am trying to be more diplomatic on these boards than I started as. But you do always bring a smile to my face. You say the things, at times, I want to say. If this match ever came about, it won't, I would be your second. And I'm still working on what you PMed me about.


Originally posted by rubthebuddha
example: while many people here rip on SD in general, the person going by the name of shaolin-do has earned the respect of many on here by ignoring the rants and just being a fun dude. judge pen has earned the respect of people by being intelligent and humble. even meecer is wedging himself in -- the lousy bum that he is (;)).
Oh my now that is funny. I may have to make that my sig for a while. Thanks.

[rubthebuddha]

i thought he was talkin about joedoe because he talks smack about SD.

as for bobojoe or whatever, you can guess my opinion on him.

besides, i got to rip on joedoe and fu-pow. how fun is that? :D


meecies -- anytime, big guy. :)

[bobojoe02]

Originally posted by crazymaddrunk
Before I state this I know I'm about to maybe get kicked off this board, but that's OK. Then again, maybe I won't. I don't have a lot of friends on here anyway (doesn't break my heart).

In particular, Fool-Pow and joejoejoejoe (you know the idiot). Put your money where your mouth is. I hereby issue you to a NHB match (sounds politically correct, yes?).

If anyone out there will sponsor us to get together and go at it, please send offers via PM. I personally think they are a bunch of cowards that hide behind the keyboard. I guess we'll see.

I want the event video-taped. I want NO money, just witnesses. I will fight both of them back-to-back, in 1 10-minute round.

Please, we'll need a school, park, wherever we can get away with it legally, sanctioning it a NHB/MMA match. You have to understand it must be legal for me. I'm already beginning to salivate.

And please, none of this "you're causing disrespect to your art" or "this is not what martial arts are all about"... I know longer practice SD, but loved the art enough to back up it's name.

As long as YOU show up, fu? Ba wa ha ha ha ha and not your grandama. LMAO, ok, there, killa from Kentucky. Oh, my sides hurt. But, it's you clowns who say,

"Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust."

Whoa, there, crazy madmonkey tart, it's beginning to smell a lot like shadow, are ye he? he he, ho ho, smoe.

Luv,
Bo

[rubthebuddha]

case in point. ;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
i thought he was talkin about joedoe because he talks smack about SD.

as for bobojoe or whatever, you can guess my opinion on him.

besides, i got to rip on joedoe and fu-pow. how fun is that? :D


meecies -- anytime, big guy. :)

Hey man, I haven't talked smack about SD for ages now. I decided it wasn't worth the effort, and why should I talk smack about it anyway since it doesn't affect me all the way down under here. :D

[bobojoe02]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
no, he's got post-too-many-threads-on-the-same-subject syndrome, and it seems to have completely effected his reasoning.

Joe is in Austin, Texas, son. And I think you'r barkin' up the wrong tree there. He's a bad man, slugger. He could easily hand your @ss, all wrapped up and pretty.

Hey, you shadow's girl, or what. Shadow's one bad smellin girl. If she wants to fight then why does she talk smack like I posted.
Girls don't fight, girl, men do and if you want to be his girl then keep yappin away.

Peace,
Bo

[old jong]

By combining adjunctions and certain deformations, any associated supporting element does not affect the structure of a stipulation to place the constructions into these various categories. Notice, incidentally, that the earlier discussion of deviance cannot be arbitrary in a corpus of utterance tokens upon which conformity has been defined by the paired utterance test. On the other hand, the notion of level of grammaticalness can be defined in such a way as to impose the ultimate standard that determines the accuracy of any proposed grammar. Comparing these examples with their parasitic gap counterparts in (96) and (97), we see that the systematic use of complex symbols may remedy and, at the same time, eliminate the requirement that branching is not tolerated within the dominance scope of a complex symbol. With this clarification, the descriptive power of the base component is to be regarded as the strong generative capacity of the theory.

Is that clear?....

[old jong]

With this clarification, this analysis of a formative as a pair of sets of features is not subject to the ultimate standard that determines the accuracy of any proposed grammar. If the position of the trace in (99c) were only relatively inaccessible to movement, most of the methodological work in modern linguistics is unspecified with respect to the system of base rules exclusive of the lexicon. Summarizing, then, we assume that the descriptive power of the base component appears to correlate rather closely with the extended c-command discussed in connection with (34). For one thing, this selectionally introduced contextual feature may remedy and, at the same time, eliminate a general convention regarding the forms of the grammar. On the other hand, relational information can be defined in such a way as to impose a parasitic gap construction.

Now,you understand?....

[Serpent]

Because it's a sham and a fallacy and reflects poorly on all kung fu!

Heh.

Whatever.

Even I've given up on it know. Buyer beware.

[old jong]

However, this assumption is not correct, since this selectionally introduced contextual feature does not affect the structure of an important distinction in language use. Summarizing, then, we assume that a case of semigrammaticalness of a different sort is rather different from the strong generative capacity of the theory. With this clarification, the descriptive power of the base component is not to be considered in determining a stipulation to place the constructions into these various categories. In the discussion of resumptive pronouns following (81), most of the methodological work in modern linguistics is unspecified with respect to a descriptive fact. It appears that the notion of level of grammaticalness is to be regarded as the levels of acceptability from fairly high (eg (99a)) to virtual gibberish (eg (98d)).

Ahhh now I fell better!...

[Serpent]

Jong, I wish you'd go into a bit of detail instead of just posting these elitist one liners with no explanation of the deeper meaning.

[cho]

Does anybody see how this all evens out? (yin/yang)

we have pro-SD trolls (Sin Thé & crazydrunk) and anti-SD trolls *(Fu-Pow& bobo). How did that happen?

even if a challenge was played out, would the loser really change his views? TWS did the same, lost, but still said SD teaches quality material. can any man truly eat his words?

SD is fake, get over it. Problem is that sin the can't say so until he's dead because he wouldn't find another career with 'taught crap martial arts for 20 years' on his resumé.

[old jong]

I know serpent!...It's not my fault!..I'm french Canadian,you know?...I can do only my best in english!...;) So... smurfy combining adjunctions and certain deformations, relational information is not quite equivalent to the strong generative smurfy of the smurfy. Comparing these examples with their parasitic gap counterparts in (96) and (97), we smurf that the notion of level of grammaticalness delimits the levels of smurfy from smurfy high (eg (99a)) to virtual gibberish (eg (98d)). For one thing, the appearance of parasitic gaps in domains smurfy inaccessible to smurfy extraction is rather different from the traditional practice of grammarians. For smurfy transformation which is smurfy diversified in application to be of smurfy interest, a subset of English sentences interesting on quite independent grounds is unspecified with respect to a stipulation to place the constructions into these various categories. On the other hand, the fundamental error of regarding functional notions as categorial does not smurfy tolerate an abstract underlying order.

Enough talking!...

[neit]

good point

[GLW]

A number of fallacies:

Wushu - Chinese Martial Art ( the correct translation)

A good Kung Fu or Wushu teacher is always a great fighter.

( the role of a teacher is to make YOU better. There are VERY good teachers that can lay a good foundation but may not have that fighter instinct...that is born in...not trained in - It is more LIKELY that a good teacher can fight...but not a certainty)

A good Kung Fu or Wushu is always great at forms.
(Similar to above)

It IS desirable to find a teacher that understands Lien Yong Kan (Lien - improves the health of the body, Yong - applicable for defense, Kan - artful or looks good). True CMA has all three. A good teacher understands them and can teach them. A GREAT teacher understands them, can teach them, and can ALWAyS do them.

Another fallacy:
This or that person REALLY KNOWS what is truly good Kung Fu.

There is simply so much wrong with that notion.

First, many will believe a person to know what they are doing because they are Chinese.

Get real. There are a large number of well known Chinese "Masters" that teach and run their schools because they got to the west early on and people had nothing to compare them to. They are "Good" by default.

Many believe that their fame or a recommendation from a friend "Who KNOWS" is a certainty to get the "REAL STUFF". Fame...means nothing. A friend who knows...and how do you as a beginner know how to tell if your friend knows jack....you don't. That is the plain simple truth.

Caveat Emptor.

In China, there are people's reputations. They had challenges and there WERE people that would know...yet there were still those that were 100% BS in what they taught.

Again, Caveat Emptor.

How do many find their school/teacher?

They start WANTING to learn.

Then they might ask a friend...or read a magazine or two...or look in the yellow pages, community forums, the web.

Then, they go and look. In some places, they have a number of schools and teachers to choose from. In others, there may be one...

Then they plunk money down.

Some will KNOW that one teacher is better than another ...but it is 20 minutes further away...so they go with closer...or cheaper...or whatever.

Now the fun part....

After they have made this infinitely INFORMED decision, they will argue and even fight to prove that their school/style/teacher/history from their teacher/ etc.... is the best, most accurate, etc....

And VERY few ever take the trouble to examine beyond and question.

Are there fakes out there...sure....

Will there continue to be fakes...most definitely.

Is it worth this level of BS....hardly.

[Judge Pen]

Old Jong is actually the architect of the Matrix.

[old jong]

O.K. They have a light japanese flavor but It is not necessary to pick on them this way!...
I looked at their "kata" list....Everything looks normal to me (For a japanese kung fu dojo imo) (http://firefly.sparse.org/~mrt/cgi-bin/t.cgi?field=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shaolin-do.com%2Fpages%2Fkatas.shtml) Now,bobo why not change tune?...If you don't mind?...;)

[BentMonk]

GLW - I'm new to the board. Judge Pen warned me about the SD trolls straight away. Your above post is one of the most intelligent comments I've seen on this well worn topic. I had to post a defense or two for SD, I owe them that for what MY teachers have done for me. I'm finished throwing crumbs under the bridge. I've had excellent exchanges of intelligent discussion with many people who had personal issues with SD. That is what I came here for in the first place. Peace and Happy Training. :cool:

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by joedoe


Hey man, I haven't talked smack about SD for ages now. I decided it wasn't worth the effort, and why should I talk smack about it anyway since it doesn't affect me all the way down under here. :D

Oh yes it does:
Shaolin Do of Australia
Carlton Baths Community Center
248 Rathdowne Street
Carlton, VICTORIA
AUSTRALIA
(03) 9481-6973

We're everywhere!
:D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


Tie Cha Chuan (sai weapon)

***Sai is also not a traditional Chinese weapon. Was this practiced in the temple?



Exhibit one from Fu Pow's kwoon's site:

http://www.makskungfu.com/weapons.html

Is that not a "sai" in the first picture? I guess you should be careful you're not pointing a finger at yourself. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

I'm so tired of this crap. Fu Pow, bash away my young insecure friend. It make no difference to me. If you ever decide to have an intelligent conversation of the topic feel free to post to my attention.


I will thank you for giving me an extra bit of motivation in my training. Everytime stance work or a form starts to get a bit difficult I think about all the crap posted here and it gives me that little extra to train harder. I guess there's some good in everything.

[Oso]

http://www.atlantaokinawankarate.com/sai.htm

link to one site that offers the opinion that sai where not 'created' in the okinawan islands. I had heard this before several places, including Lung Ting's book on the Vagabonds of southern china. the above site says they may have come from Fukien so that correlates at least one other source.

others

http://www.wahlumdenver.com/types_of_ancient_chinese_weapons.htm

http://www.wdob.net/mai/weapons/sai/saihistory.php

I agree, this SD bashing has reached a rediculous level.

[Evad]

MK, thanks for the input. I can respect and appreciate your views now that you yourself have become more reasonable with your views concerning SD. My decision to use hypothetical 'what if' was based entirely on remaining skeptical to any determination of historical fact. Archeology is rewriting itself every year as they uncover more and more information and evidence. As an honest skeptic in most things, I feel that questions should be asked that introduce some need to continue the search for history.

I'm in total agreement with your information concerning the Manchurians and I agree with bobojoe2(?) as well. I don't intend to support my views with what if's, but I do intend to keep these possibilities open to interpretation as more and more information is unearthed.

Over the years I have come across several accounts of different stories concerning the destruction of the temples and most agree but every now and again there are differences that keep you wondering.

[brothernumber9]

As for Sifu Mak kin Fai's school having sai's it is easy to make the mistake, but in the very page posted it says you can PURCHASE these weapons from them. They have a small business selling martial arts supplies from there. My Sifu does the same thing, we sell all kind of japanese martial arts supplies, but that is not indicative that they are part of our system. Sai are definitely not a part of any choy lay fut system I've ever seen, and although I don't study choy lay fut, it is a very closely related art to the one I learn so i bet I'm right.

[Judge Pen]

Well the site says you can purchase these high quality "kung fu" weapons. Looking at all the products page you see no other non-CMA weapons represented nor any video or book on anything but Kung Fu. Thus, it looks like Fu Pow's site is representing the sai to be a traditional kung fu weapon.

[Radhnoti]

Joe stopped trashing when he saw the similarities between his and our style:

Both claim southern temple origin and passed through SE asian countries.

We have almost the same weapons curriculum...early on anyway.

His teachers have all had mullets.

His early open hand curriculum, I'm willing to bet, is also similar.

3 out of the 4 statements above have the potential to be true.

Back in the day, abandit (now joedoe) used to really lay into me...but it was in a logical and mostly respectful way, which I appreciated then and now. I'd love to buy joe a beer some day...

:D

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
His teachers have all had mullets. best argument ever. :D

[Fu-Pow]

Actually my Sifu doesn't even sell Sai's. I don't know how those got in that picture. I recognize that set, they are actually some Sai's that a former Karate student left at our school. I think my Sifu may have put them in the picture to make it appear that we have more variety of weapons. What can I say....false advertising.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Serpent
If he was hiding the art's Chinese origins, why change the Dao to Do but leave in the word Shaolin!? That makes no sense at all.

Even if he called it Shorinji Do (which is Japanese for Shaolin Way) it would still mean that the art was CHinese. No one is so stupid as to think that it's no longer CHinese because the name is Japanese. It makes no sense at all.


Whooh...hooooh......the calvary has arrived.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Actually my Sifu doesn't even sell Sai's. I don't know how those got in that picture. I recognize that set, they are actually some Sai's that a former Karate student left at our school. I think my Sifu may have put them in the picture to make it appear that we have more variety of weapons. What can I say....false advertising.

Backpeddle, backpeddle, backpeddle.

It's on your site, so it must be true. :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Evad
[B]I will respond to your research one by one as I have time. Also, I will make no claims against you that my rebuttals are absolute FACT, but I will maintain that what we contend with in our material is legitimately POSSIBLE.



Correction, you did not state accurately the 'account' of Grandmaster Ie. He was a monk at the temple with Su, however he did not 'learn all there was to learn and leave to teach in Singapore' he left the temple and continued to study with Su Kong for several years. After Su Kongs death and during the turbulent times in china with the Boxer Rebellion and the cultural revolution that would soon take place, Grand Master Ie and several of his new colleagues fled China to Indonesia.

***Could you be more specific and tell us what year that was?

MANY other masters of that generation fled China to foreign lands as well. It's a well known fact that during these chaotic decades in that country many masters and styles were destroyed or nearly destroyed. Martial arts training was banned after the communist's took control and whole family's and well known master's were labeled enemies of the state and imprisoned or put to death.

***That was in 1949 when the PRC took over.

A tremendous amount of 'traditional' knowledge and training techniques was forever lost with the passing of these great teachers. IT'S POSSIBLE, that GrandMaster Ie was a student of these old styles and training who escaped with some of his comtemporaries to Indonesia.

****OK...that I can buy. But the training claimed to take place at the Fukien Shaolin Temple which most likely was destroyed some 300 years ago. The dog face monk wasn't even born until 1850. How do you reconcile those dates?

Ok, you have stated that 'only recently has anything been found' that substantiates the existence of a southern temple. Master Sin has been stating it's existence since his first student in the '60's. This historical dispute is finally getting some recent attention, but Master Sin and no doubt many many others have maintained that there was indeed a temple in Fukien province and maybe only in legends. The truth is in the details and as such IT'S POSSIBLE that the archeological evidence may resolve the issue. If it is proven that a temple did exist and survived until 50-100 years ago, what then?

***My point is that it DIDN'T exist 50 or 100 years ago. According to the article that I'm citing, the archeologists predict that the temple was destroyed in the early Ching dynasty which is from 1644 to 1911. "Early" implies near the beginning ie around 1700.

Furthermore, if it had existed 50-100 years ago then people living in the area would have been able to identify it's location. That's only a few generations. They were not able to identify it's location and that was why this recent "discovery" was so exciting.

We will receive some small vindication. Neither of us are qualified enough to conclude based upon current research that it did or did not exist.

***It's pretty clear that the temple found at Fukien was the Southern Shaolin Temple. They've found all kinds of artifacts with Shaolin written on them and such.

Consider this....China was a great mystery to most of the world community until Richard Nixon opened the doors to the country with his visit as president. This means that a large part of what we know about China and it's history, it's local legends, etc is still in it's infantcy.

***The truth is that most WESTERNERS are ignorant of Chinese history. We can't read the language and so we can't read Chinese history books. And there are people who would profit off of that ignorance and make claims to "Shaolin" and **** like that. You know who I'm talking about of course.

Nearly one out of every six people in the WORLD are chinese. That's over a BILLION people with a BILLION different views. So how many of those BILLION people (or whatever the census was at the time) was living in the vicinity of the alleged temple?

***Lots. That's proves my point. If the temple was around 50-100 years ago as Shaolin Do claims then it is likely with so many people that someone would have remembered its former location. Go back 300 years (when the temple was probably destroyed) and this becomes a lot less likely.

How many of those 'local's that survived the upheaval of their society remember the temple that are untraceable today? Of those that knew anything about the temple, would they be eager to speak up and be noticed, or would they deny knowledge in order to remain safe from the 'cleansing' that was taking place all around them?

**That's a convenient argument.

According the stories about Su Kong it is said that they were tipped off that they were about to be beseiged and destroyed, and it was decided that rather than let that happen, they would voluntarily flee the temple and destroy it themselves. IT'S POSSIBLE, if the temple survived until the late 1800's early 1900's that after it's destruction, something else could have been built on top of it's location.

***But it wasn't. They found the temple.

China has a population explosion going on at the time that requires a lot of valuable space. Current archeological research is looking for something 'old' and IT'S POSSIBLE that no one is looking for something 'recent.' Maybe the temple existed during the Ching dynasty was destroyed and then rebuilt at a new secret and secluded location that survived until recent times. Why would anyone want to reestablish a temple (that was destroyed) in a known location and chance being destroyed again? Makes sense to relocate and take extra security measures to protect the new temple and remain safe.

***Maybe, maybe, maybe.

This is all hypothetical and serves only to illustrate that IT IS A POSSIBILITY that we just flat out don't know the details of a fukien temple.

***Again I ask you then. Where was the temple where the dog face monk and Ie Chang Ming trained?

[Fu-Pow]

I accept the challenge.

Let me give you my stats:

I'm 6'7" inches tall.

I weigh 235.

And I'm not a leggy basketball player type, I'm very proportional.

I'm very flexible and can do the splits both ways.

I'm instructor level and have trained in CLF for 7 years and Chen Taiji for 5 years. Before that I studied Hung Ga for 1 year.

I took a 16 hour Chi Na seminar so I know a lot of great pressure points.

You still wanna play?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Backpeddle, backpeddle, backpeddle.

It's on your site, so it must be true. :rolleyes:

Wow...you really proved a big point. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
I accept the challenge.

Let me give you my stats:

I'm 6'7" inches tall.



Really? You type like you 5' 3"

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


Wow...you really proved a big point. :rolleyes:

Just following your example. You can learn all you need to know about another's MA from their internet site.

[BentMonk]

JP - That was just plain funny son. roflmao

:D

[dezhen2001]

as far as i know southern mantis (chow gar) also uses sai, as well as Joedoes 5 ancestors :)

dawood

[BentMonk]

One final thought on FuPow. For as much shiat as he talks, I would pay good money to see him cross hands w/Master Mullins, Master Schaefer, Master Price, Master Gray, Master Leonard, Rob, Reggie, the list goes on. Although not a single one of the people I've named would give a !@#% about ANY of the stuff on this board, the lesson in humility that would be taught would be enough to inspire a new "Priceless" commercial. 6'7 huh? They're stacking it pretty high these days. :cool:

[Crimson Phoenix]

And Fukien White Crane as well...
regarding that, Yang Jwing Ming specifically states it is a weapon of chinese origin...
*disgression over*

[Judge Pen]

I've sparred Master Mullins and the man is good (read phenominal). I would like to think that he could take FP but FP may in fact be a MA prodigy who likes to talk crap. Who knows? I only have half the information needed to give an opinion.

[MasterKiller]

JP,
That's my point. When it comes to trash talking, we should really only speak for ourselves.

Tossing out names of people who could beat Fu-Pow is like that crappy FSU National Title where Notre Dame beat FSU, but lost to Boston College, but FSU lost to ND and beat Boston College, so FSU wins the title because they beat the team that beat the team that beat them, even though they lost the head to head with ND.

[Crimson Phoenix]

hey, you upset Fu Pow now...bad idea...

however, if I may add a little commentary:

I'm very flexible and can do the splits both ways.
I took a 16 hour Chi Na seminar so I know a lot of great pressure points.


these parts were not too impressive :D just pulling your leg

c'mon, SD's history is really fishy, you cannot deny...after that, well if you enjoy it why bother?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
JP,
That's my point. When it comes to trash talking, we should really only speak for ourselves.

Tossing out names of people who could beat Fu-Pow is like that crappy FSU National Title where Notre Dame beat FSU, but lost to Boston College, but FSU lost to ND and beat Boston College, so FSU wins the title because they beat the team that beat the team that beat them, even though they lost the head to head with ND.

Yeah, but we all like to think that our team is the best. A Sooner fan should know all about that.

[norther practitioner]

I took a 16 hour Chi Na seminar so I know a lot of great pressure points.

:rolleyes:

That mullet thing is the best thing posted today :D

[Leimeng]

~ I am amazed at some of the things I hear on this forum.
~ One thing that gets me is the entire debate about Shaolin-do with some of that art’s practitioners. While I find the claims of Sin The to be dubious at best, that does not mean that his students are of like character. In fact, some of them are very hard working at the stuff they are taught. So why are their personal attacks against them?
~ If I learn to do a standard punch, vertical or horizontal, (it makes no difference for the arguments sake), and I practice throwing that punch several hundred or thousand times each day, does it make a difference to that practice if it is called tae kwon do or shotokan or shaolin or whoop-dee-doo? Not really, it is just a basic technique. So, if ‘Shaolin-Do’ learned to throw his punch in a Shaolin-do school, or you learn to throw that same technique in your commercially based McDojo, does that subtract from the effectiveness of that technique?
~ My very first art I studied (years ago) was Tae Kwon Do Mu Duk Kwon. My instructor was a black belt. The instructor over the system at that time was a third degree black belt. The problem being that he (the third degree black) decided that he did not like organization he was with, so he declared himself a 5th degree black belt master and made his own organization. Does this detract from the legitimacy of the techniques that I learned there? I think not. (Most of the schools I have worked out in since have complemented my kicking techniques that I learned at that school. In fact, when I teach kicks, I used many of the concepts from that first 5 years of study at that school.)
~ So in a martial application sense it makes no difference where someone learns a technique as long as they learn the technique correctly, and they practice hard and long on it to develop it to its maximum.
~ The student who practices long and hard on a technique correctly applied is going to develop good kung-fu (skill). If they practice well enough, it might just save their butts some day.
~ However, in the sense of honesty, it is important for schools and masters to be up-front about their training. In this area, we might be able to question Sin The (or numerous other very well known instructors that are total frauds) about what their claims are.
~ So what is the point of all of this?
~ I hear repeated harassment of some members of this forum because of the art they study. This ridicule is made with no knowledge of that person’s actual skill level or training and personal practice. It is made on the association with individual’s school. While I do not doubt that the individual’s instructor is dubious at best, that does not detract from the valid effort and input into training that the student is involved with.
~ Learn what you can from the other individuals on this forum. If you get the chance, meet them in person and enjoy a beer with them after you both work out together. Work out hard, and chill out.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I do – Bride to Groom
Yabba dabba doo -- Flintstone
To be or not to be? -- Hamlet
Doo be doo whop – Sinatra

[CaptinPickAxe]

alright man...
you are obviously a sexist pig. I bet you there are many girls out there who could make you see stars. The reason I side with Shadow is because your a troll. You post too many threads on the same subject. AND EVERYTIME I BRING THIS UP YOU WASTE MORE SPACE. Now as me being a girl, I will gladly fight you anytime any place. I am not a girl, but a man with a problem with anger...and if you volunteer to be my punching bag for a day, I suggest you take Advil before you come to my establisment.
Cause when I'm done with you, you're going to fight everyone else in the kwoon. Do you know why, sport? Cause you can't judge a kwoon by just fighting one person...bring your 11 year old sister too. So she can watch you get your face spilt, your arms broken, and so she can drive you to the hospital in you concust mindstate. And when you wake up, If you have an in-tact jaw, you'll say to her "I was wrong, don't f*ck with those guys" we are not nice people, Tiger. And its a personal attack on people to bring a child in and try to make her fight high ranking students.
We don't take kindly to @ssholes here in Texas. We'll be the first to tell you when you act like one, and the first to put you back in line...

But the fact of the matter is, I will never see you. In my eyes, you talk nothing but idle threats hiding behind your computer. I know I wouldn't pay hundreds of dollars just to fly across the nation to fight. But if your ever in my neck of the woods, slugger. Stop on by and I'll happily wollop you for everyone on here who wishes they could.

Ginuenly & Sincerly

The Captain

[CaptinPickAxe]

But its just a friendly challenge of course...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix


c'mon, SD's history is really fishy, you cannot deny...after that, well if you enjoy it why bother?

I don't deny that there's some myth in the history, but I can't deny that it is a legitmate CMA that I have enjoyed practicing for several years.

As for making Fu Pow mad, I really don't care. He came here with an agenda. Besdies he is (apparently) a big boy. I'm sure he can take it.

[Fu-Pow]

Fine, I'll concede the point about the Sai. It is not exclusively Japanese.

But the Chinese styles that use the Sai are the exception and not the rule.

I mean, my style has forms that use a horse bench and a farmers hoe. These are not typical of most Chinese arts.

We're arguing over miniscule points here.

My premise has been the whole time that Shaolin Do is in fact Karate and has nothing to do with Shaolin. The Shaolin lineage, the Shaolin forms are either made up or borrowed.

If you look at the overall picture you see that what I'm saying is true.

1) Dubious history and lineage
2) Mismash of forms from various kung fu styles Shaolin in origin and not
3) Gi's, barefeet and belt rankings
4) Weapons used by Japanese martial arts

If you look at all these things together and not in isolation you begin to see something that looks like Karate dressed up and marketed as Chinese Kung Fu.

Whether or not the participants of these schools possess fighting ability is not clear. As was stated I've never been to a Shaolin Do school so I wouldn't really know.

Obviously, if there is a good karate lineage then perhaps that is sufficient to endow the practitioners with enough skill to defend themselves.

I can't help but think that learning all those conflicting styles of martial art would confuse rather than aid the students ability.

What is obvious to me and many others is that this art is promoting itself as something other than what it is.

To me that is dishonest and would lead me to believe that what is being taught is also false, even if some of it legitimate (ie the karate portion of the curriculum.)

[Judge Pen]

Thanks man. If only everyone showed the same insight here.

[norther practitioner]

I don't deny that there's some myth in the history

As with most of ours... but yours sometimes goes over the top, I've let my opinion about that be known however, don't really want to go into it, it is a moot point.

MK, you should know who I'd pick to go up with someone with FJs stats...lol.... The only thing is he'd have to lose some of the hair...lol:D

[Shaolin-Do]

**** dude... Statistics getting good here CPA. Went from a 25% f*ckable campus to **** near 50%, with at least 60% of the f*ckable portion, being sexy. There are still, of course, the hogs on the SAC campus, but ****....
Things are looking good down here, and getting better daily.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Are the still chemically bonded with their cell phones?
Thats a **** good ratio, I'm lookin' foward to cummin:D home.
Invite some of these sexy ladies to my welcome home party.

[Shaolin-Do]

I have a competitive sports mullet.

[Oso]

I think some of the kung fu/tma guys got tired of getting trashed by the mma guys so they decided to take it out on someone else:eek: ;)

free discussion is one thing but this whole thing has gotten ridiculous. If I were mod, I'd start deleting some threads.

never been a big believer in free speech anyways....

[CaptinPickAxe]

Thats the way to think...good post, Leimeng

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, sort of the whole 10,000 kicks or 1 kick 10,000 thing in a way. Of course if you are kicking wrong that whole thing goes to ****.

[Shaolin-Do]

D@mn... We need our own forum :)
Look how many threads are dedicated to SD right now... Dont you all feel special?
:rolleyes:

Good post leiming. Its too bad that most people here lack what we call "maturity" to act as youve described.

[themeecer]

Yes it is official, you guys have made SD the most well known MA in the world. :D

[MasterKiller]

Of course if you are kicking wrong that whole thing goes to ****. Word.

[Shaolin-Do]

Seriously dude... I dunno what happened. They all may be freshmen or some sh!t, but theres err... "friendly faces" everywhere I look...
And no, most of them dont have the cell phone glued to the face like last semester.
:)

[Judge Pen]

Fu Pow,

Using your logic, its just as easy to argue that it's not karate, but kung fu.

1. Dubious "karate" lineage
2. Several practitioners do not wear gis, but sashes and TCMA garb.
3. Mixing traditional chinese weapons such as dao, kwan dao, straight sword, and chinese spear.
4. Teaching tai chi, hsing-I and Pa Kua.
5. Chi Gong is a large part of advanced training.

It must not be karate either. What is it? It's Shaolin Do.

I'll grant you the lineage doesn't always add up, but several "legitimate" lineages in TCMA do not.


You've conceded sai after pushing it as a point of contention, so that leaves us with how many japanese weapons? One: Nunchucku. For the sake of this argument let's just say We incorporated Nunchucku because americans expected to see that weapon in a class they were taking. Americans are not sophisticated to the differences between kung fu and karate anyway right? Everything was karate to several americans (especially in the 1960s)

We mix some japanese terms in. Yes. Goes back to making everything karate in America. Big whop. If you read some of the posts here, you will see that there were several teachers in Indonesia along with Ie Chang Ming. Thus our style has incorporated several arts that did not originate in any Shaolin temple. Again, how does this make us karate?

SD is different than most CMA here because it evolved different. It came through a different country and has been filtered through two men who moved from Indonesea into America in the 60s. It has had 40 years of Americanization. But to say it has its roots in karate and not kung fu just shows your ignorance.

Let it alone. It's not harming you. Why the Jesus complex? Why the need for the crusade to "save" everyone? Shut up and train in your own style and leave me to mine.

[Judge Pen]

And why do I take the time to feed a troll?

[KC Elbows]

I think some people have gone overboard.

On the flip side, is it our role to pretend to respect belief systems posing as historical lines? Because invariably, once in a while, those who follow those belief systems will put them forth as fact, as a given for a particular discussion.

This is not meant as an accusation, but as a serious discussion point. If I come onto this forum with the core belief to my martial arts system that my grandmaster spanked a well known grandmaster, is it everyone else's role to humor my belief? I don't believe so. I don't think it's theri role to pursue me from thread to thread in order to attack that belief, but if that belief is core to every comment I make, I don't think I should get any special treatment.

That being said, most of the sd guys I've seen here haven't harped a lot on their stuff, just been regular members. Mind you, I've also seen a couple who respond to criticism with the "attitude of the chosen few", as I like to call it, but not all that many.

IMO, if you could combine the member SD with immunity to pot, you would have the uber sd kfm member. I propose that we euthanize all imperfect sd kfm members and begin to create a superior bunch just for this forum. I read it's possible for a male to carry infants to term, I suggest that 7star be chosen to carry the UBER DOITES, solely to watch them get smacked down for calling a large black man "mother".

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
D@mn... We need our own forum :)
Look how many threads are dedicated to SD right now... Dont you all feel special?
:rolleyes:

Good post leiming. Its too bad that most people here lack what we call "maturity" to act as youve described.

Most?

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive been wondering the same thing...
Everything you have just wasted your time saying JP, was futile at best, and has been covered on another thread. The bickering and arguing over the legitemacy of Shaolin-Do has become mind bogglingly redundant. I have just started ignoring these threads for the most part, using my time posting to contribute something worth while. (ill still read em tho, just to see whats goin on...)
:D
Edit:... Maybe I shouldnt say "worth while", but more interesting.
just leave it be JP... Theres no point in arguing with fu pow. His views are dead set and not going to change. His views are right, and we are all frauds as far as hes concerned.

[norther practitioner]

those who follow those belief systems will put them forth as fact, as a given for a particular discussion.

Which has happend between a SD practitioner and myself. He was a follower type, just took everything he heard, took it as fact, and regurgitated it... this is why I had such a bad taste in my mouth about SD...

[Judge Pen]

Sd,

You are right. I've ignored my own advice and thrown pearls to swine. Thanks for the wake-up call.

JP

[norther practitioner]

Big dude with braids... lol.....
He's pretty jacked right now too.... we've only taken like 3 days off since Taiji Legacy. He's trying to get down to fighting weight.

[BentMonk]

MK & JP - My last post was just me aggrivating Fu. I was feeling like a bit of a smart azz. The guys whose names I dropped are all real fighters, and I'm not talking about tournament fighting. JP knows this already. Still MK, you're right about the name dropping thing. I'm not going to give the attention ho anything else to type about. That was the last post I plan on writing concerning Fu or his tired azz thread. I am most definetly going to follow JP's example, and leave troll slaying to those with more time and energy. I'm not a big enough fan to intelligently discuss football. Hoops is another story. Peace and Happiness Party Peoples. :cool:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BentMonk
I'm not a big enough fan to intelligently discuss football. Hoops is another story.

Well, you're in Kentucky. All you guys have is basketball. ;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

hey you got some flow to throw down on goose? As for the new women situation for the party...I haven't been home in a month, and I can't fly in the ones I met here. Your the elected "Hoe-Bringer". And I expect you to do a **** good job...




or else....:mad:

[Shaolin-Do]

I gotta work my own game before I invite their friends d@mnit.
:)
But dont worry, I got this weekend and all next week to do that.
Yeah, I should have some $$ to throw down on the goose.

[KC Elbows]

It's an unavoidable part of life. I'm saying this as someone who came from a far more extreme belief system, if your group is the only group to believe something about martial arts, it's gonna cause communication problems, and it's not always gonne be the other person's fault, and just because someone believes differently than your grandmaster doesn't mean they're wrong. There's not a grandmaster out there with a 100% accuracy guarantee.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Invite all that we know...women-wise.
I want to be out numbered greatly, and you've had a month ******! were you procrastinating agian?:D

[KC Elbows]

I also think that all martial artists should familiarize themselves with the fact that master and historian are on two completely different pages of the dictionairy.

[Shaolin-Do]

"could combine the member SD with immunity to pot,"

Then Id burn up all of it wondering why the hell I hadnt gotten stoned.
:D
Anyways, Ive been trying hard to only smoke at night time. :)

[MasterKiller]

Anyways, Ive been trying hard to only smoke at night time. Awwww......our little boy is growing up.


BTW, SD, check your PMs.

[Shaolin-Do]

No no no.
IM a Pro-Asstinator. Its kinda like burninating.
:confused:

Anyhow, dont worry, the situation should be nice. Is satan going to be at the casa? Or is it free?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Is she ever home? I think not, I'm moving back into my own house, so that where the goose and the after party for the ladies will be held...9 days, I'm all giddy-n-sh!t. Then you see what the Bowflex can do for you...Have you and Mando gotten your membership to R&F of Fitness Connection yet? I don't think I could live with out Weight training now...

[norther practitioner]

solely to watch them get smacked down for calling a large black man "mother".
lmfao....

Hmm association, Arnold Schwartzengovenor (albeit him not being black, but still large), whatever that crappy movie was, and the ongoing recall thing in Cali... good timing...lol

[CaptinPickAxe]

Arnolds slogan should be...
"Your govenor is a pansy...Its time for a TOTAL RECALL"
:D

[MasterKiller]

Schwarzenegger means "Black Farmer."

It has all come full circle.

[BentMonk]

Leimeng - Well said. If only words could slay the trolls. lol :D

[Shaolin-Do]

"I HOPE YOU LEFT ROOM FOR MY FIST, BECAUSE I AM GOING TO RAM IT INTO YOUR STOMACH!"

Best

Arnold

Quote

Ever.


:D

[CaptinPickAxe]

I have to agree.
I've donated so many hours playing with the Arny soundboard on New Grounds...

[BentMonk]

JP - You warned me about this chit before I even got here, and I still ignored your advice by getting caught up in it. I'm done and I haven't fought nearly as hard w/the trolls as some of you guys have. People are going to believe what they want to believe. SD has been good to me. I'm better for having studied it. Is anything any troll on here types going to change that? Nope. Ranting with them just eats into training time. See you in September JP & SD. Train hard 'cause ya might have to face me, and Bent Style Rules!!! lmao :D At least that's what she said...

[neit]

leiming - don't you think that the organization you are a member of reflects upon you? if you study at a fraudulant school and work hard and become skilled, does'nt it still show something bad about your character? personally i would never join a school unless i agreed completely with the actions of the organizations head.

[Fu-Pow]

You guys need some new material.

You just keep saying the same thing over and over.

"Why do you care", "Leave us alone", "You do your thing and I'll do mine."

It's like a god****ed broken record.

I've made my intentions known. I believe on many levels Shaolin Do is a fraud and my intention is to expose it to you and anyone else reading these boards.

I really DON'T care all that much. But the way you guys react it makes me want to push you guys to your logical limit.

You guys are what I'd call "emotional" thinkers. You just want to have your emotions validated. You want me to say "I'm ok and your ok" and "can't we all just get along.?"

Answer: No we can't.

You practice an art that myself and many others consider to be misrepresenting itself. Until you admit that Shaolin Do is dressed up Karate I will continue to make the point that it is, until you see it for yourself.

Sorry guys, I'm in for the long haul.

As for being a troll. That's wishful thinking on your part. A troll simply says things to stir people up. I genuinely believe what I'm writing. There is a difference.

[Judge Pen]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[CaptinPickAxe]

this is me not giving a f*ck.:D

[Laughing Cow]

For me MA is about improving yourself, for some this might be found insides the halls of Shaolin-Do, for others in China and for others in the MMA.

As long as YOU progress along YOUR path everything else should be secondary.

There are many success stories in MA and life about people making it even though they had a bad start or bad influences (not saying that SD is that).

Just some thoughts.

[Laughing Cow]

Fu-Pow.

Who cares, ain't you got some training that needs to be done?

[Shaolin-Do]

"and work hard and become skilled, does'nt it still show something bad about your character"

...
:rolleyes:

[Shaolin-Do]

Not gonna argue with you on SD anymore, troll.

"I genuinely believe what I'm writing. There is a difference."

Yes, and the man on 4th and boardwalk wearing goggles and a trenchcoat genuinely believes that god talks to him through a spoon named Davis.
Just cause you believe it dont mean sh!t.

[CaptinPickAxe]

finally got our wish. One big page where people b*tch about SD to overlook.

[diego]

all i have to add for now is run a search...Temple kungfu has been slammed to shiat on these boards!!!:)

[bobojoe02]

[

[bobojoe02]

[bobojoe02]

Originally posted by crazymaddrunk
Before I state this I know I'm about to maybe get kicked off this board, but that's OK. Then again, maybe I won't. I don't have a lot of friends on here anyway (doesn't break my heart).

In particular, Fool-Pow and joejoejoejoe (you know the idiot). Put your money where your mouth is. I hereby issue you to a NHB match (sounds politically correct, yes?).

If anyone out there will sponsor us to get together and go at it, please send offers via PM. I personally think they are a bunch of cowards that hide behind the keyboard. I guess we'll see.

I want the event video-taped. I want NO money, just witnesses. I will fight both of them back-to-back, in 1 10-minute round.

Please, we'll need a school, park, wherever we can get away with it legally, sanctioning it a NHB/MMA match. You have to understand it must be legal for me. I'm already beginning to salivate.

And please, none of this "you're causing disrespect to your art" or "this is not what martial arts are all about"... I know longer practice SD, but loved the art enough to back up it's name.

Is anyone on here NOT gAy? Ba ha ha ha h awwaaa what a bunch of siSsy girls.

Bo

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
Joe stopped trashing when he saw the similarities between his and our style:

Both claim southern temple origin and passed through SE asian countries.

We have almost the same weapons curriculum...early on anyway.

His teachers have all had mullets.

His early open hand curriculum, I'm willing to bet, is also similar.

3 out of the 4 statements above have the potential to be true.

Back in the day, abandit (now joedoe) used to really lay into me...but it was in a logical and mostly respectful way, which I appreciated then and now. I'd love to buy joe a beer some day...

:D

Actually, I think only 2 of the 4 are probably true - do you know which 2 tho? ;)

[Edit] I also did not stop solely because of parallels between SD and my school. I stopped because I saw no point in it.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolinarab


Oh yes it does:
Shaolin Do of Australia
Carlton Baths Community Center
248 Rathdowne Street
Carlton, VICTORIA
AUSTRALIA
(03) 9481-6973

We're everywhere!
:D

OK, now I am going to get mad :D

[Brad]

Hehehe, I had the same recation when I found out they were in Ohio :D

But then again, there's folks here that make SD look possitively mainstream ;)

[joedoe]

In all seriousness, there is so much good kung fu in Sydney and Melbourne anyway, so it doesn't bother me. If a school opens up in Sydney though, I might stick my head in and have a look.

[Leimeng]

~ My post was not a comment on the legitmacy of the school of martial arts that a person chooses to study. It is on the students and their working hard on their material correctly to learn real skills.
~ How does criticizing hard working students help your 'cause'?
~ Large numbers of schools of martial arts in the US; Chinese, Korean, Japanese and others are founded by total frauds. They have wild histories that have little semblance of factual reality. The instructors have low skill and lower integrity. Most commercial schools give the impression (at least) of being more concerned for the money than they are for teaching real martial arts.
~ Guess what though. The same thing happens in China, in Hong Kong, in Taiwan, in Korea, in Japan, and all around the world!
~ I blame the instructors and our microwave/mcdonalds type of society for that. One and two hour classes twice a week with monthy pizza parties on every fourth saturday all for $75 a month! But wait, sign up now for six months and we will throw in a free $25 uniform and $1 belt! Public consumes it. It is not just the three most bashed schools here. It is a LOT of them.
~ Have you ever heard of a guy named Peter Urban? Excellent skill. You would learn good stuff from him. But by his own admission he self promoted to 10th Dan. Does that mean he should not be teaching?
~ Have you ever heard of an art called Wing Chun/Ving Tsun? Do you realize that there are at least three different instructors who claim they are Yip Man's designated heir and legitimate grandmaster? Wow, three people making the same claim! Only one person can be the designated heir and grandmaster! But, none of them have documentation that is independently verifiable regarding their status. Not one! That means that AT LEAST TWO of them are fake. That is, THEY ARE FRAUDS! Does that detract from learning WC/VT from any of those guys? You tell me.
~ The point is this; Because a student belongs to or studies from a system that has lots of intellectual and factual credibility does not mean that the student is bad. Perhaps that is the ONLY place to learn any sort of martial skill in that students town.
~ Would I ever take lessons at some of these mcdojos/ mckwoons etc? Not on your life. Will I criticise and trash that person all the time because his instructor sucks? Not really. I might after some time of knowing the person encourage the person to look somewhere else for instruction. But only after I know the person, their personality and temper.
~ What can you constructively add to the conversation? Is your only imput "XYZ is a fraud, you are stupid and never going to learn anything there"? Why not use the opportunity afforded to you to learn and contribute to discussions of technique and theory and practice and personal development? Would that not be a better use of your time?
~ I will not duck my head and let the discussion continue...
:D

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[Brad]

Not one! That means that AT LEAST TWO of them are fake. That is, THEY ARE FRAUDS!
Don't know who any of these guys are or much about Wing Chun, but I did hear a theory claiming Yip Man's Opium use could've been to blame for this ;)

Hehehe, lets see how many controversies we can drag into this thread
:D

[The Willow Sword]

I suggest you guys do something else that is productive and MEANINGFUL in your lives. Like FOR INSTANCE
this http://www.liquidgeneration.com/poptoons/hollywood_badboy.asp


i only have one question to pose to all you posers

DO YOU HAVE THE POWER TO GET OFF THE SD ADDICTION?
well you know I DID. :p

toodledoodledoo,,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

One thread? The SD thing died out for a while and then some SDer's came here and read some past posts and got all up in arms and it started all up again. Then it started to die. Now FP and boboj decided to stir up stuff again and its right back. Here's hoping this thread dies a swift death.

Until the next time.