Natural or Learned

[CaptinPickAxe]

Who who'd pound who? A natural fighter who trains a couple years, or a person whose trained about a decade in some MA. Both put in a 100% for the duration of their training.

[Jook Lum]

Depends on the individuals fighting!

[Jook Lum]

Hello again!The question is too basic,too many variables to give a simple answer.Probably not the answer you are looking for but still an answer. It is like asking -If a man with no arms fought a man with no legs who would win? :confused:

[Xdr4g0nx]

lol that would be fun to watch. Cripple fight. Jimmy

ok seriously now, sorry but what is a natural fighter?

[CaptinPickAxe]

nutural fighter=a born fighter; e.i. someone who is naturally good at fighting.

[Xdr4g0nx]

o ok, and what is he training for a couple of year?

[CaptinPickAxe]

The style of western Egypt. I don't know be creative.
You fill in the blanks:

A natural fighter who trains a couple years in ______, or a person whose trained about a decade in _______. Both put in a 100% for the duration of their training.

[Xdr4g0nx]

i would think the latter, cause he would be more experience.

[Starchaser107]

People with natural talent tend not to push themselves as hard, because they rely on thier natural talent to get them by, so, they fall into a comfort zone. It is usually people that are Driven with desire and a goal in mind that far exeed thier own original objectives (i.e. Someone who trains to fight, because they weren't born with those skills but have great desire to obtain them). Intuitiveness and instinct are also great things, and never to be underestimated though. But,can a trained fighter train intelligently and teach his/her body to react instinctively.

To answer your question, I would say that it is the fighter that wants to win more who will win.

[BentMonk]

I agree with SC. If it's set up just like CPA says then it's like an NCAA Championship game. It comes down to a question of who wants it most. This topic is what I hoped the UFC was going to be. Too bad it turned into WWG - We Worship Grapplers. I'm not bashing BJJ. Still a bit off this topic...How do you guys think a BJJ fighter would fare against multiple attackers? Down here in Luavull ;) we spar two-on-one quite a bit. I'm not familar enough w/BJJ. Do they train for multiple attackers? What about you guys? Ever spar two-on-one?

[apoweyn]

I'm always a little confused by the point of this question. And I don't mean that to sound belligerent. But would you feel any more satisfaction from one answer or the other? To me, a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question just isn't very gratifying.


Stuart B.

[No_Know]

"Who who'd pound who? A natural fighter who trains a couple years, or a person whose trained about a decade in some MA. Both put in a 100% for the duration of their training."

-The fighter who understood fighting best.

-The fighter who had superior conditioning related to how they attack and get damaged.

-The fighter who felt it was O.K. to damage the other person without mercy.

-The fighter who utilized the environment~ to h er/is advantage And benefit.

-The fighter who got Good lucky that the other fighter was remiss in at least one of the afore mentioned.

This fighter who'd pound the other fighter might alternate throughout the fight.

Perhaps somesuch, very good.

[Chang Style Novice]

Catbus (http://www.digital.anime.org.uk/download/wall/totoro/thumb6.jpg) would TOTALLY OWN Spongebob Squarepants (http://www.firstlightastro.com/extras/misc/spongebob.gif)!

By which I mean, I'm with Apoweyn on this one.

[Starchaser107]

AaaaaaaaAAAAaarggghh!


I really HATE sponge bob square pants.

[Chang Style Novice]

I have no particular opinion about him. But I LOVE Catbus!

[Oso]

This isn't an answer to the question but just a comment on 'natural' fighters.

I know 2 people who fit this description. But both of them have trained for over 20 years. A 'natural' fighter is going to get more out of training than some one who doesn't naturally have an aptitude for fighting. Not everyone does, afterall. The two guys I know are just scarily adept at what they have learned.

While there are way to many variable to the question I would offer a simpler question:

Take a 'natural' and a 'not natural' (assuming that there is indeed a distinction)

Have the same instructor train them the exactly the same and use the exact same sparring partner for both.

In this instance, i think the natural would become a better fighter over the same amount of time.

[Judge Pen]

I think that a good fighter is always a natural fighter. I think the MA can't make you a fighter, but can only make you a better fighter. You have to have something to build from before you start your training.

[Oso]

hmmm, I think we would need to define "fighter"

to me, a fighter is someone who doesn't give up.

this could be a boxer in a ring or a single mom who's ex is a ******* and is doing everything she can for her kids.

so, is being a 'fighter' a prerequisite for learning combative techniques?

can you not learn the skills w/o the urge to fight and be just as skilled as a 'fighter'?

[MasterKiller]

I think Oso has a hot girlfriend.

[Oso]

:cool:

[TonyM.]

A natural fighter witha couple of years and a stylist with a decade have about the same abilities overall in my experience. I'm some of both. I'm a natural grappler that needs very little practice to knock off the cobwebs and a trained striker that has to practice daily to keep sharp.

[CaptinPickAxe]

The fact of the matter is, like most other threads, there is no "real" answer...I just wanted to see what the community thought.

I think the decade of training would pay off, again both put in a 100%. But the deciding factor, in my mind ,would be the knowledge you could learn in 10 years. As opposed to the little bit of cool stuff you can learn in a year or two. But you must understand, some people are born fighters (and by fighting I mean kickin' ass) and others are lovers...and then there are neither. The true question is:

Could a born fighter with a year or two of training beat a lover/neither who trains for a decade.

[norther practitioner]

Weirder things have happend.. taking odds, I might take the "natural" all other things being equal... the hard thing is that these **** things are so hypothetical.

[Golden Arms]

Two points of view....Chen Man Ching stated that out of the things that makes a good fighter, talent was the least important. That being said though..drive to learn is equally important, and the kind of drive I am talking about is something that 95% of most people dont have..its the drive that is so strong, its all you think about, the kind of drive where you may have dumped a gorgeous girl to go in and work out, told family members 'no' to dinners where your grandma is visiting for the last time before she dies..etc...that person will get it..the average joe...probably wont. Or to put it this way...how many NFL, NBA, etc players do you think now play that are 'naturals' vs. 'non naturals that work hard'? I would guess most but not all are naturals.

[norther practitioner]

Good point GA, but I think part of the naturals thing is the drive...

[Merryprankster]

Too bad it turned into WWG - We Worship Grapplers.

Sigh. Don't keep up much, do we?

[BentMonk]

No I do not "keep up" w/the UFC. I had a buddy who was so into it that I got sick of hearing about it. The last one I had to sit through was more like an hour and a half commercial for Gracie Jujitsu. If some stand up fighters have came into prominence since then, great. It just seemed like most every UFC match ended up being two grown men rolling around on the floor. If current UFC's are different, yay rah. I don't find them entertaining. The ones I did sit through were on a TV where I didn't control the remote, or give a big enough chit about what was on to whine about it. Peace.

[scotty1]

OK, hands up- will Bent Monk be savaged by Merryprankster, or quietly ignored?

But on topic, I think spirit is one of the most important things. That and conditioning. As well as skill.

[Oso]

But on topic, I think spirit is one of the most important things. That and conditioning. As well as skill.

Let's see...spirit, conditioning, skill...what else is there? ;) :D

[Merryprankster]

Not savaged. Informed if he's willing to listen. Although I'm not big on his belligerent attitude, I might have started it :D

BentMonk, I suggest you give both UFC and Pride another whirl. We've come a long way since UFC 4--which is when Rorian sold the franchise, I think.

I don't think casual dismissal is warranted.

[Oso]

BM, MP has the correct in a compromising position (dam, still can't get the hang of that bit :D I watch the one tape a buddy of mine copied for me every couple of weeks and it has some great fights on it. The Pulver-Penn fight is my favorite. I hope to see the UFC rise to become the asian martial arts venue equal to boxing.

Now, if only some cma folks would get off there butts and train for it we would get some representation.

[scotty1]

"But on topic, I think spirit is one of the most important things. That and conditioning. As well as skill."

As I was typing the above sentence I realised how important all three things were, and I let it stand as testament to the sillyness of the original question. :D

[BentMonk]

MP- Yeah, the "sigh...don't keep up much" thing got me going. I can be quite a smart a$$ sometimes. From what you guys have said it sounds like UFC's have changed. I'll give the ones you reccomended a look. When it started I was hoping that it would be the MA equivalent of boxing also. It's ironic that I find stand-up matches more fun to watch than grappling. Since I have Cerebral Palsy and can't kick due to balance issues, all the kicks in my material have been changed to knees and elbows. I have no choice but to train and fight as a grappler. The one good thing about my preference for stand up fighting is, that after nine years of training, my speed and punching power finally doesn't suck. I figure one or two fast solid punches will hopefully open a door or two for the grab & slam stuff. Thanks for reminding me to keep an open mind. Peace. :cool:

[scotty1]

OMG, respect and an open mind. What is this forum coming to? :)

[BentMonk]

This is kind of related to the topic. What kinds of sparring do you guys do? Down here in Luavull we bang pretty good, but keep respect and control. The more experienced students go just barely below full speed and contact. Protective gear except for a cup is optional. Less experienced students are monitored closely and encouraged to develop speed and power gradually. Nearly all of our students have outstanding control of the techniques they throw. We've had our share of split lips, black eyes, bruised ribs, and minor things like that. Still, I've been there for almost ten years and have yet to see someone seriously hurt. **Knock On Wood** IMO protective gear gives some a perceived license to kill. If you go fast and hard, yet still keep a presence of control, I think it leads to better judgement in the techniques you choose to use. Also being hit while wearing gear is very different from getting hit without it. I would much rather be some what accustomed to taking an unpadded hit (albeit pulled), than for my first full contact experience to be when I get punched in the street. We also spar two-on-one. Oops, switching ramble mode off. :D Peace & Happy Training.

[Oso]

scotty1, I agree, was just funning ya.

point being: it's all important and the guy/gal who's got it all together the best is going to do ok in a fight.

[CaptinPickAxe]

When I was enrolled at Shaolin-Do, my school was notorious for 50% sparring...Hell, thats all we ever did. Even the two on one/ three on one sparring moved at a snails pace. But, I've been informed my new martial art is going to be rough. Slaps to the face, Punches to the stomach, and all the while being slammed down. its been called 80% sparring, and Its a welcome change.

[Oso]

we've always used 25/50/75/controlled full to denote different levels of sparring intensity.

of course, you realize that the mma guys are just going to tell us we're not really going close to full contact. ;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

Yeah, but I think few can keep control in 100% sparring. Someone would get kicked in the nuts or punched in the face hard and it would turn into an all out slobber-knocker.

BTW, Oso, your girlfriend has some cool art. Maybe she could design an album cover for me.

[Oso]

she could indeed. her email is on the website.



I look at my sparring progression happening over several years. Over that time you try and instill a lack of ego in the student so that retaliation and escalation don't happen. If you get nailed then you get nailed. don't be vindictive. that's when I see the most instances of out of control crap.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I've seen it too many times at my kwoon. The same situation I described. Usually my sifu broke it up before it too out of hand. I think thats the true reason for our 50% sparring, only a handfull of us had enough control to spar at anything above that.

[Oso]

I agree. But, if you don't get past that point then you have a much lower chance of really getting an idea of what getting hit for real is like. control is the key and I'm harsh about people maintaining whatever level I have set.

[yu shan]

IMO, the control issue is a sign of maturity. I agree with Oso, being in control of one`s action`s is #one, whether in real life, or Kicking a$$. We do alot of conditioning against each other and two-person material. Over time, and good guidance, you should learn control.

As for the thread, I`ve had my bell rung by both! Grew up in the inner city, so learned the street stuff and was lucky to have been taught by the Chinese, the Treasures.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I can honestly say that I have never thrown a punch in a rage. The other day while sparring I recieved a good boot to the face and the only person I was annoyed with was myself for not blocking it (the other guy was quite apologetic, it was only light contact sparring but we were both tired as hell)

My instructor even congratulated me on my composure- a lot of people would have gotten quite upset at taking a hit like that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Jook Lum
Hello again!The question is too basic,too many variables to give a simple answer.Probably not the answer you are looking for but still an answer. It is like asking -If a man with no arms fought a man with no legs who would win? :confused:


Naturally, the man with no arms. he could walk over and stomp the man with no arms into oblivion, and it would be VERY difficult for the legless man to move. The only way he'd stand a chance is if he had a gun or something

[CaptinPickAxe]

I personally don't have a control problem, even when I'd take two or three shots to the face I wouldn't get angry. Even after I warned them about the excessive contact. As for control of my fists, my whole time at the kwoon I threw punches at the face and only connected once early on in my training and it wasn't even a tap. Needless to say, I felt like I had commited a cardinal sin. I quickly apologized and continued sparring. But I reiterate my point again, too many people at my kwoon have no control. They either get too crazy with their punches or get angry when accidently hit in a restricted area. Our sifu had us do an excersise for control. If we could throw 50 back fists, full force, at a wall without hitting it once then we were permitted to thow punches at the face. I think that is an excellent excercise, after smacking the wall a couple times you really concentrate on control.:D

[neigung]

Originally posted by SevenStar

Naturally, the man with no arms. he could walk over and stomp the man with no arms into oblivion, and it would be VERY difficult for the legless man to move. The only way he'd stand a chance is if he had a gun or something

Dude. My bet goes to the legless man.
Go watch this and see where I'm coming from.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022913/

[Oso]

interesting anecdote:

I coached a junior high wrestling team once.

We were the visiting team and the home coach and I were getting together on the exhibition matches. He had a kid w/ no legs in the 119 weight class. I had a 119 pounder. I went back and talked to my kid about it and mostly talked about the maturity issue involved (junior high kids) and he was into it. Well, in my ignorance at the time I didn't think about the fact that this 119 pound legless (gone from about mid thigh) kid had the frame of a 150-160 pounder. My kid won but not w/o a heck of a fight. The other kid got a standing ovation from both benches and the crowd and my kid got probably one of the best lessons of his life. Me too, for that matter.

[Oso]

I personally don't have a control problem, even when I'd take two or three shots to the face I wouldn't get angry. Even after I warned them about the excessive contact. As for control of my fists, my whole time at the kwoon I threw punches at the face and only connected once early on in my training and it wasn't even a tap. Needless to say, I felt like I had commited a cardinal sin. I quickly apologized and continued sparring. But I reiterate my point again, too many people at my kwoon have no control. They either get too crazy with their punches or get angry when accidently hit in a restricted area. Our sifu had us do an excersise for control. If we could throw 50 back fists, full force, at a wall without hitting it once then we were permitted to thow punches at the face. I think that is an excellent excercise, after smacking the wall a couple times you really concentrate on control

your teacher should get those people under control then. Under my first sifu I had to take a blow to the abdomen if I lost control during sparring, either physically or mentally. These started off as backfists but became stronger strikes over time, I didn't get it for a while;) This served the additional purpose of testing our breath control. Not necessarily a method for public schools but it worked for me.:)

I get on people for not striking as hard as the set control level, as well. Control is doing exactly what you want. If I've said 'half contact' then all strikes should be half contact or it's not considered a focused strike for the purposes of the sparring match. Different parts of the body stay at a touch level: eyes, throat, groin, knees.

[Merryprankster]

Oso,

No doubt! We had a kid with withered legs. He didn't train hard enough and kept getting into academic trouble, but he was strong as all get out. A better work ethic probably would have made him a nightmare.

[Oso]

Yea, the guy was as bulging w/ upper body muscle as an 8th grader can get. Oddly, his upper legs (all he had) were pretty big too. He must have been using some special machine to work them. He was also a decent wrestler all things considered. He just couldn't bridge though. :( My kid obviously couldn't shoot on him so he had to accept the tie up and got thrown but he eventually reversed and pinned.

it was a very good experience for my team, they showed a lot of maturity that day.