Modern Sports dangerous to health!

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.

Been talking to a friend recently and we got chatting on modern day athletes and how much quicker their careers seem to be and full of inmuries.

Is it just our perceptions or do modern day athletes receive more injuries from pushing themselves too hard?
Alos most of them seem to quit earlier than previous athletes, or is this due to starting to compete earlier.

Everyday when I turn to the sports section 4 types of headlines seem to appear more than others:

1.) Player injured, going for surgery out for xx weeks.
2.) Player arrested for drugs, drunken driving, rape, assult whatever.
3.) Coach/player sacked/transfered/sold
4.) Player caught/suspected of doping

What is happening to modern day sports?

It seems to be more about the benjamins and less about sports these days.

Is it really worthwhile for an athlete to compete and retire at 30 with a long list of injuries, etc.

Athletes get younger and younger, receive less education and seem a lot more immature than their everyday counterparts.

Your thoughts?

[old jong]

Too much $$$$$$

[Starchaser107]

When everything has lost it's meaning, go back to the roots.

[Kristoffer]

sports evolve, nothing new

[SaMantis]

It's all about the benjamins, and the benjamins are ****ing up sports on all levels.

Amateur players, weekend warriors, etc. get it into their head that sports are meaningless unless they can play and act like their heroes, the top-flight professionals.

Tennis was my sport growing up. I always found it funny watching adults (men, mostly) trying to "ace" the ball by whaling the he*l out of it, going into hissy fits when the ball went wild, basically trying to be like their heroes (MacEnroe, Connors). End result being: none of them could play worth a ****, they more often as not injured themselves, and they wound up hating the game.

My grandfather was a part-time tennis coach who built public courts for free and bought rackets for everyone interested in learning. He just really enjoyed the sport for the sake of the sport, not for money or fame. In his 70s he was still playing every morning with anyone who brought a racket, he still won matches, and I never saw him "ace" the ball.

[Starchaser107]

It's the same thing with music.

[Ford Prefect]

1) Athletes are bigger, stronger and faster which will lead to more injuries where short bursts of speed, cutting, and/or hard contact are part of the game.

2) Many surgeries are preventive or minor. 20-30 years ago, the athlete would just play through the pain and be none the wiser. Also in the past athletes were just seen to have "lost a step", "thrown his arm out", etc and were forced to end their careers. With modern technology, we are now able to pinpoint the problem, and perform surgery/rehibiliation on it to try to bring the player back.

3) Performance enhancing drugs like steroids can weaken connective tissue. This leads to many of the tears and strains in sports as well. Performance enhancing drugs are quite prevalent in every elite-level sporting event. Most people are in denial about this.

All in all, it may seem like more players are being injured, but I'd be willing to bet that the number has only risen slightly. We are just more aware of injuries that can happen and can now act to correct them.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't follow the statistics, but it seems reasonable to guess that as the stakes get higher pro athletes would start pushing themselves harder, perhaps to unsafe extremes more often.

[shaolinboxer]

For every professional althete, there are thousands of failed injured post athletes.

I am studying for a masters degree in physical education and the program is filled with post althletes with knee problems, heart conditions, spinal injuries, cronic depression, etc.

[WanderingMonk]

I take a slightly different view.

I think the emphasis on muscle growth is the root cause of the problem. A lot of these athletes seem to suffer from torn ligament, tendons, etc. I admit performance enhance drugs might play a role on connective tissue damage, but it also seem that their body's supporting structure is incapable of coping with the stress created by their overly-developed muscles.

May be modern sport science should come up with a way to grow stronger ligament and tendons in order to make these athletes last longer. oh! I am sorry that's what the horse stance is for. :)

wm

[SevenStar]

it's not only a problem with muscular people. Repetitive stress injury is a cause of that also. I know more than a few CMA guys who have injured their shoulders from repetitive BWE, like hindu pushups.

It's not the muscle growth that's the problem, IMO, but

1.) exerting force beyond what their joints can handle
2.) repetitive motion of a given exercise
3.) competition

Competition drives people to become bigger, stronger, play harder, take more risks, etc.

[Ford Prefect]

May be modern sport science should come up with a way to grow stronger ligament and tendons in order to make these athletes last longer.

Ummm... weight training does this as well. *coughs*

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
May be modern sport science should come up with a way to grow stronger ligament and tendons in order to make these athletes last longer.

Ummm... weight training does this as well. *coughs*

Excellent, please provide me with some ratio between muscle growth and tendon/liagment growth as result of weight training.

I believe that the rate of muscle growth is much faster than tendon/liagment growth. I remember from anatomy class that the amount of nutrients deliver to tendon/liagments is minscule compare to those delivered to the muscles. Also, tendon/ligaments are repaired at a much, much sloooooower rate. Hence, if you are doing weight training, the muscle will grow much faster than the tendon/ligaments. Think about it. The regular body builder routine is to workout and take in large quantity of proteins to facilitate muscle repairs. Many pro athletes follow similar dietary intake and training regiment.
This have to result in an inbalance between muscle and tendon/ligament growth ratio.

wm

[Ford Prefect]

OK. Believe what you will. No sweat off my back. You're right after all. Maybe you could make millions bringing your horse stance to the NFL trainers.

[WanderingMonk]

Hey Tony M.,

would that thread be in the training section?




Originally posted by Ford Prefect
OK. Believe what you will. No sweat off my back. You're right after all. Maybe you could make millions bringing your horse stance to the NFL trainers.

Nope, million dolloar contract I won't get. NFL need to develop their athlete explosive power in the shortest amount of time possible. I like "The Beast" developed by the Bronco strength training coach. A big @ss bundle of timbers made in the shape similar to the lawn mower (where the coach got the inspiration) on a artificial tuff. he make his guy push the darn thing for 50 yards. From the sportscenter footage, all the linesmen collapse before or after finishing the 50 yards. Yeah, that's the way to go in the NFL.

wm

[Ford Prefect]

You're right again. NFL'ers wouldn't care for any method that would decrease their likelyhood of injury, thus prolonging careers and filling bank accounts.

[Golden Arms]

It takes a certain mindset to try and or actually PRACTICE things like working your horse stance up to 30 minutes. The process of building up your tendons from doing it can also make for Joint Aches and the like for a couple years until it gets pretty far along..How many pro atheletes do YOU know that would like to go into an excercise knowing that its going to make their knees ache, when they could just lift weights, and get larger leg muscles? I believe in Horse training because of how hard we work it in my style, and I can see the results, but before I knew any better, I would have preferred squats.

[Merryprankster]

LMAO at those who seem to think pro athletes don't have the mindset to work on something like horse stance. You have no conception, obviously, of what their work ethic looks like. Give them something that will actually benefit them, and most of them will bust their ass on it. In addition to great physical gifts most (not all) of these guys work harder than you can EVER imagine.

Normal people who lift weights don't have a problem with muscle growth outstripping tendon and ligament strength.

That said, it's certainly clear that a big man with small joints may very well have some issues.

Steroid use CAN cause your muscle growth to outstrip your joints' ability to handle it.

For the record, HGH will increase connective tissue strength (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong), as will prolotherapy.

Horse stance isn't going to improve your tendon strength any more than squatting. Your body adapts to repetitive stress, period, provided you don't over-do it. Of course, I will be shouted down by the true believers here, but what should I expect from people who think that practicing certain postures and breathing patterns is going to lead to "marrow washing?" Oh, feel free to feed me anecdotal evidence, questionable "medical" studies and "wisdom of the ancients." Shall I remind you that tiger ***** and rhinoceros horn are highly prized as impotence remedies, or that "longevity pills" were/are full of cinnabar--a toxic mercury ore?

Bottom line--bigger, stronger, faster athletes slamming into each other means more load on the joints means more, as well as more violent, injury.

As far as the money goes, as long as we're stupid enough to support these guys' salaries, the money will keep going.

[Golden Arms]

they both build them up MP, but in different ways...you can feel the difference..its not horse stance itself that does it, but static or standing excercises...for instance..using a grip strength trainer will build up your hand differently than just holding something heavy with your fingers for 15 minutes every day. One builds builds strenth like a bear, one builds it more like what a bird of prey's feet feel like when they settle on a glove if you have felt that...its nothing supernatural, just adaptation. I would be willing to bet that rock climbers have similar hands to tiger stylists, but not like guys that use 150 dumbells..anyone esle have input?

[old jong]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
they both build them up MP, but in different ways...you can feel the difference..its not horse stance itself that does it, but static or standing excercises...for instance..using a grip strength trainer will build up your hand differently than just holding something heavy with your fingers for 15 minutes every day. One builds builds strenth like a bear, one builds it more like what a bird of prey's feet feel like when they settle on a glove if you have felt that...its nothing supernatural, just adaptation. I would be willing to bet that rock climbers have similar hands to tiger stylists, but not like guys that use 150 dumbells..anyone esle have input?
I agree at 100% !...If I may add: The needs of a Kung Fu practitioner in physical training are different than those of a football player or a wrestler. Many of the moves ,a wrestler do all the times would hurt the other guy if he tried to perform them.It is the specialised training that allow the wrestler to perform these moves without hurting himself. It is the same for most Kung Fu styles. You need the proper preparative training to be able to express force in the right way for the needs of the style. Stance training will make your Kung Fu better. A thousand sqats will make your legs stronger but not really adapted for what you want.

[Ford Prefect]

I love this forum. Thanks guy!

[Merryprankster]

Umm... yeah, it's different, but it's not the "tendons" that are different (although connective tissue can become stronger through training). It's your MUSCLES that get trained differently and adapt to that training.

A guy with 150 lbs dumbells doesn't have grip endurance because he doesn't train for it. A guy who uses them to farmer's walk, on the other hand is going to have great grip endurance.

A guy who trains singles, doubles and triples squatting can develop great strength, but lousy muscular endurance. A guy who does 100 lighter squats is going to have lousy one rep max strength and great muscular endurance.

Similarly, when you do horse stance forever, you're training your body to maintain an isometric contraction for a certain period of time. I might also point out that you make excptionally minimal strength gains in other places within that range of motion.

Both place a load on your system and both elicit an adaptive response. But to argue that horse stance somehow trains the "tendons" but weight training is all about the muscles is (almost) the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

old jong--Not true. We have better protective equipment in football than we've ever had, yet more athletes get more major injuries. Why? Because they are bigger, stronger and faster and can hit WAY harder.

All you have to do is compare attributes.

[MasterKiller]

I'm with MP.

If a 245-lb. linebacker hits you with 4.3/40 speed, the probability for damage is high, no matter how well-conditioned you are.

Energy = Mass x Velocity(squared).

Bigger Athletes x Faster Athletes = More energy on impact.

[old jong]

" old jong--Not true. We have better protective equipment in football than we've ever had, yet more athletes get more major injuries. Why? Because they are bigger, stronger and faster and can hit WAY harder" MP

No it is not what I meant!...I meant that if you take some guy without specific physical preparation and ask him to perform some wrestling move for instance,he's going to hurt his back or something for sure. His body is not adapted to that kind of demand.
In Kung Fu,the guy could maybe imitate the gesture but the power simply would'nt be there.(Muscular power maybe depending on the guy but,I'm talking about specific kung Fu skill here!) He would lack the solidity of the stance,the body unity connection,the relaxation,the jing,etc...
Any physical activity demands for it's specific preparation.

[Merryprankster]

Old Jong,

If you are discussing how guys decide to be rambo when they spent most of their lives eating jelly donuts, I agree. Fat, overweight, out of shape ninnies should not be trying to act like they are pro ballers. They will hurt themselves.

[fa_jing]

my personal experience is that my knees and hips benefitted the most, the fastest from horse stance (high and low) then from anything else. Squats (with weight) were the second best thing, followed by limited range leg extensions on the machine. I think the advantage with stance holds is that you have all the time in the world to adjust your joint alignment, to make subtle changes in your muscle tension, weight distribution, etc. If you do it wrong, you can eventually feel the changes you need to make without much advice needed. Whereas with the squat, your knee might crackle or track incorrectly, but you might just push through it. Even still, like I said my knees got stronger with the squat.

Just because it's not used in the NFL, doesn't mean it wouldn't help NFL players. It just means that they already have the bases covered for their needs, including the strengthening of joints. Different team trainers have different philosophies, and if you look at weightlifting for instance, the Bulgarian way to train is not the same as the Russian way, is not the same as the American way - but all produce results. Especially when you consider Horse stance, which for all non Martial Artists would be strictly assistance work - and you have a lot of freedom in choosing assistance exercises, moreso than the exercises that form the core of your training

-Keith

[fa_jing]

to put it another way, if you took an NFL team and asked them to change their joint mobility work, ten minutes of it for 5 minutes of static horse stance holds on a daily basis, and tracked this team over 5 seasons, you wouldn't find much if any of a statistical difference one way or another. So why change what isn't broken?

[old jong]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Old Jong,

If you are discussing how guys decide to be rambo when they spent most of their lives eating jelly donuts, I agree. Fat, overweight, out of shape ninnies should not be trying to act like they are pro ballers. They will hurt themselves.

....Not exactly!... Is my english so bad that I can't make the simple idea that a specific activity needs a specific preparation understandable?...:(
BTW,I agree with Tony.M...If I read well enough!

[Former castleva]

The title is flawed.Modern day sports (as you put it) are not dangerous,but they can be made to be (I must have told you something you did not know?)

Bad news sell too,btw.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Former castleva
The title is flawed.Modern day sports (as you put it) are not dangerous,but they can be made to be (I must have told you something you did not know?)

Bad news sell too,btw.

This way it attracts more viewers.
;)

[Former castleva]

Beats me.

http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,7099961-23209,00.html

[Merryprankster]

old jong,

They need certain basic preps, but I don't really understand your point. The injuries aren't accruing because people who don't know what's going on are attempting them. They are accruing because athletes attributes have improved.

[old jong]

It all started when the discussion was about the horse stance training vs the squats. One train the muscle in a certain way and the other develop something else.

TMA's normally use classical ways in order to prepare the body for the range of motions and the force/endurance necessary for the activity.

Other physical activities like occidental sports use other kinds of physical training for their specific needs.

My point is: Using the "sport" training for Kung Fu is not necessary the best thing to do for many reasons and....

Trying your hands in a demanding sport like wrestling for instance with a "Kung Fu type" of training is going to get you hurt because the strengh or endurance demands are different.I am not talking about damages caused by an opponent but by a lack of proper preparation. ......I'M really doing my best here!...

;)

[Merryprankster]

Old Jong,

I don't think that's entirely true. A person in really good shape isn't necessarily going to get injured. Good shape is good shape.

I appreciate your point. If you don't know how to fall, don't do judo. But a person in good shape is less likely to get injured, period.

w/regard to horse stance v. squats--I was specifically discussing the idea that one trains 'tendons' and the other 'muscles'.

Absurd.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I love this forum. Thanks guy!

lol ;)

Where have you guys (not you, Ford...) gotten the idea that stance training is for tendons and ligaments? I've been under the impression it's for training weight placement, postural changes, relaxation, and such (as fa-jing) mentioned. I've never trained an external chinese style though; is it just an external thing?

[fa_jing]

Oh, well the stance training I've done does train the tendons and ligaments as they are stretched in order to assume the position of the stance. As far as the hips are concerned, full squats Olympic style will do something very similar, however I haven't come across anything that stretches and strengthens the knees and ankles like horse stance. Similarly I haven't found anything that works the hip flexors quite like a one legged stance, while improving the alignment of the sacrum, although pistols do work the hip flexors very well too. So there may be other stuff out there that targets this things, but I doubt they will be more effective than what I'm already doing.

[Christopher M]

Can you operationalize what you mean by "strengthens the knees and hips" for me?