tendon development through training

[rubthebuddha]

a recent post regarding "tendon development" through stancework, as well as the general concept of tendon changing, confuses the heck out of me. just what exactly is changing/being developed, how, and why? :confused:

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
a recent post regarding "tendon development" through stancework, as well as the general concept of tendon changing, confuses the heck out of me. just what exactly is changing/being developed, how, and why? :confused:

Let's compare squat and stancework. What happen when one do heavy squat, he is training to increase amount of weight he can push with his legs. this process cause increase in leg muscle mass in short amount of time. The muscle mass increase will significantly outstrip the increase in tendon/ligament mass.

In stance work, you are holding static position which result in increase endurance while putting a load on both the muscle and tendon. Since this is endurance work, their will be less muscle mass increase as compared to heavy squat (explosive power workout). While the same time you are increasing the tendon/ligament mass. Hence, stance work result in more tendon/liagment growth when compared to heavy squat. If you choose to do light weight squat with endurance as your goal, then your result should logically be more similar to stance training.

The key is the difference between the rate tendon/ligament and muscle is repaired by the body.

It is a trade off and you choose which attribute you value more.

edit

Now, if we have a nutrientist or MD here, I like to ask you what is the build block for the connective tissue (ligament/tendons) and which type of food contain these building blocks (beside pork/beef tendon which is hard to get hold of in US supermarket).

wm

[Ford Prefect]

You do NOT break down tendons and ligaments to be made thicker. Both are repaired slowly (ie years) or not at all. Tendon and ligament damage is almost irreperable.

When you train a stance, all it is is a static contraction. Nothing more. The benefits of static contaction training have been widely studied by both eatern and western sports scientists. Wholenon-ma related workouts programs have been based off of static contraction training. Do tendons and ligaments repsond to load. Short answer is yes in a way. Your ligaments and tendons will repsond proportionally to the load placed on them.

Since stance training is an endurance activity and the muscles and connective tissue have to support a load for a long period of time, there will obviously be some physical adaption taking place. Because of it's low intensity, maximal strength will not go up and may even go down in an individual previously highly trained for maximal strength. The muscle itself doesn't get much stronger past the beginning stages, but the energy delivery to the muscle does. Likewise, tendons and ligaments will repsond to the tension by strengthening themselves.

Now let's look at a squat. A squat is dynamic contraction as the muscles involve move through a range of motion. Do tendons and ligaments respond to this training. Again, yes in a way. This has to be broken down into two effects that can be combined or worked seperately.

If you work the squat in bodybuilding fashion, then you are again placing a repetively moderate load on the muscle and connective tissue of the legs. Since you can keep increasing weight, the muscle will keep adapting its energy system to supply the muscle with energy for these repetive loads. The energy system in this case is derived both from ATP and ADP-CP, but more imporantly from glycosis. In turn, the muscle's sarcoplasm will hypertrophy to meet the demand placed in it. Not only this, but the ligaments/tendons will also respond to the repititive tension/stress by strengthening themselves as well.

The second way connective tissue can be changed via strength training is when somebody is training for maximal strength. In this case the muscle and connective tissue is subjected to short bouts of extremely heavy loads. The regular ligaments\tendons will obviously adjust to the gradually increasing load by strengthening themselves as well. The heavier the load the stronger the connective tissue will become.

That's only part of it though. What many people don't realize is that there is connective tissue holding together all your muscle fibers. By training heavy, you will undergo myofabrillar/sarcomeric hypertrophy which is an increase in thickness of existing fibers/myofabrils. When these get thicker they need to grow more connective tissue to stay on the muscle. In a nutshell, myofabrillar hypertrophy not only causes muscle fibers to grow, but it prompts the groth of intra-muscle connective tissue as well.

The results are pretty obvious. I think static contaction training is a great addition to any program, but it should not be a core unless holding kung fu stances is your main concern. I'll leave you with a little thought experiment to help you sift through everything:

We have two similar men who weigh 200 lbs. Man A can squat 700 lbs while Man B can hold a horse stance for 30 minutes. How hard to you think it would be for Man A to hold his 200lbs bodyweight in a horse stance for 30 minutes? Do you think he'd tear anything or injure himself?

Now how do you think Man B would do just trying to unrack (stand with legs locked) 700 lbs nevermind squatting it. Do you think he could get injured or tear anything? For fun, lets see him attempt a squat.

Who do you think has the stronger connective tissue?

[Black Jack]

I think it is because certain sectors in the traditional ma world like to ignore modern science and just go with the mystical man on the mountain approach that has no empircal data or hard data behind it to show justice to there wild claims.

If some funny guy in silk pj's says it builds tendons or washes marrow then heck it has to. The guy has silk pj's afterall.

[Ford Prefect]

Tony, I agree. I think people should always build up a base training unweighted movements before heading to weights partially for that reason.

lol @ Blackjack. It's too true.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
You do NOT break down tendons and ligaments to be made thicker. Both are repaired slowly (ie years) or not at all. Tendon and ligament damage is almost irreperable.


you win, the your theory is based on current western medical science on tendon repair. I still hold out hope since it has proven itself to be wrong by overlooking certain repair mechanism in the human body before.



We have two similar men who weigh 200 lbs. Man A can squat 700 lbs while Man B can hold a horse stance for 30 minutes. How hard to you think it would be for Man A to hold his 200lbs bodyweight in a horse stance for 30 minutes? Do you think he'd tear anything or injure himself?

Now how do you think Man B would do just trying to unrack (stand with legs locked) 700 lbs nevermind squatting it. Do you think he could get injured or tear anything? For fun, lets see him attempt a squat.

Who do you think has the stronger connective tissue?

you stack this experiment in your favor (the world record for squat is: 90 kg body weight/squat weight 345 kg). So, you are telling me to have a average horse stance guy (30 mins is nothing. I can do thirty minutes) to challenge the best squat guy in the world.

It would be more fair if the weight was 200 to 300 lb (1x to 1.5x body weight) for the guy who do horse stance while asking the guy who do squat to hold a horse stance for only sixty minutes.

It would be stack in my favor if the squat guy had to hold a horse stance for three hours (One southern crane school in Taiwan, the entrance exam is to hold the horse stance for four hours straight. Of course, they don't get too many students.).

Squat and horse stance train muscle differently, and let's end it with that.

wm

[Golden Arms]

Agreed..I have nothing to prove, nor do I believe people in PJ's. My Sifu is a big exponent of weight training as well...the two excercises develop your legs COMPLETELY differently, and both are effective for the persons end goals. If you want to know what it develops, try it for a couple years every day, if not..Train however you want. Just dont be so quick to try and debunk things that you yourself have not experienced...

For example, there is no PHYSICALLY detectable 'system' of meridians and channels that acupuncture relies on. Yet a Recent study in france found that Radioactive Isotope injected into the meridian followed the charted path EXACTLY, while it moved little or not at all when injected in non meridian spots, or into the blood stream. I dont always have an explanation, but I do know that it works.

[PLCrane]

The other part of this that really didn't get mentioned is that stance training puts your joints into ranges of motion where they don't ordinarily go. This will result in lengthening of some ligaments over time. As someone mentioned in the other thread that on this topic, that allows you to get into the proper position for power generation.

Think back to the first time you did a front stance. Were your hips square to the front? I'll bet not. The reason is that the ligaments in the front of the hip joint (on the rear leg side) weren't loose enough to allow it in a low stance. With practice, you eventually get to the point where you can not only get your hips square to the front, but you can tuck your butt at the same time.

PLC

[Ford Prefect]

Fine. have the guy that just horse stances squat 300 lbs.

[Ford Prefect]

BTW, depending on the sanctioning body, the 198 lbs weight class record squat ranges from 800-900+ lbs. 750 lbs is way off.

[IronFist]

I want to be present to watch when the horse stance guy tries to squat 300lbs.

IronFist