Pao Shan Shou

[MantisifuFW]

I was wondering how many of you on this list trained in the method of Running up the Hills Hands (Pao Shan Shou)? It is a series of climbing motions with the hands that intercept and ultimately strike the opponent.

Thanks,

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
I was wondering how many of you on this list trained in the method of Running up the Hills Hands (Pao Shan Shou)? It is a series of climbing motions with the hands that intercept and ultimately strike the opponent.

Thanks,

Steve Cottrell
In one of my PM books (The Praying Mantis System Vol. 1- Edited by James I. Wong), it speaks of a technique called the "Shadow Hand" (Ying Shou). It mentions (and I quote): The "prefighting Stance" (pao-chang shou) alludes to the practice of extending both hands out at chest level with one slightly in advance of the other. The front hand attacks the upper part of the adversary's body, while the rear hand is designed to counter any enemy strikes and to protect the face from side attacks. In application, the techniques should be a consecutive and relentless mid-body attack upon the enemy....

The book also mentions (and I quote):The back of the hand represents the principal weapon of attack whereupon all fingers are then deployed to maim in the general direction of the opponent's eyes. This action can similarly be employed to distract an opponent's attention.

I always thought this to be the "leaking hands" combination (I don't know the actual name of the technique), the 2nd and 3rd palm techniques in the first road of the "Plum Blossum Hand" form.

I understand you are asking about a specific technique, and in the book I'm quoting, it mentions "pao-chang shou" as a prefighting stance. The spelling is close to "Pao Shan Shou", but still different. It was close enough that I thought it may be helpful. Maybe not.

I hope someone can provide information on Pao Shan Shou. It sounds like a great technique.

[mantis108]

If I am not mistaken, it is in the first road of Zhaiyao Yilu. It comes after Bishou and it is followed by stealing open/extending bottom leaking. It is somewhat a variation of Go-lo-tsai with footwork.

I believe you can view it as one of the closing the gap method. A similar concept is available in Lanjie as well.

Mantisben,

I have a feeling what you are describing of the Pao-Chang Shou is Mantis Catches Cicada (Tanglang Puchan) or Mantis stance as most people refer to in the community. Personally, I call it Gwahu Puchan in order to distingush it from a Sau Fa move that we have in CCK TCPM. I don't think I agree with the analysis of the stance and the usage of the hand in the book quotes. Nothing inheritly wrong of what he said; so to each their own.

I don't think the Mantis stance is best used in the context of a prefighting stance. I believe that's what movie fu does to people. It is a pretty sad state of mindset. :(

Pao-Chang Shou and Pao Shan Shou are definitely different things.

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108
If I am not mistaken, it is in the first road of Zhaiyao Yilu. It comes after Bishou and it is followed by stealing open/extending bottom leaking. It is somewhat a variation of Go-lo-tsai with footwork.

I believe you can view it as one of the closing the gap method. A similar concept is available in Lanjie as well.

Mantisben,

I have a feeling what you are describing of the Pao-Chang Shou is Mantis Catches Cicada (Tanglang Puchan) or Mantis stance as most people refer to in the community. Personally, I call it Gwahu Puchan in order to distingush it from a Sau Fa move that we have in CCK TCPM. I don't think I agree with the analysis of the stance and the usage of the hand in the book quotes. Nothing inheritly wrong of what he said; so to each their own.

I don't think the Mantis stance is best used in the context of a prefighting stance. I believe that's what movie fu does to people. It is a pretty sad state of mindset. :(

Pao-Chang Shou and Pao Shan Shou are definitely different things.

Mantis108
Thank you for your correction.

[MantisifuFW]

Thanks for your input. I will check the kunepo for that set and have a look. I was wondering where it appeared in different systems. In HK Seven Star it is not listed in the sets as such though the method was taught to me. As I learned it, and I am ALWAYS open to being educated by others, it is more implicit than explicit.

Thanks again,


Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Hi Mantisben,

You are most welcome. :)

Hi Sifu Cottrell,

You are most welcome. I am all for comparing notes. I think the sequence appears in the LWK book p. 52 move no. 15 - 17. No. 16 is the Pao Shan Shou in question I believe. No. 17 seems different in the strike. The stance is the same though. So I am not sure if that is CCM way of doing things or not. Anyway, I would love to hear what you found and if you would share more of your thoughts on the Pao Shan Shou.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

I do not teach the Pao Shan Shou until a student has a grasp of a lot of material in Tanglang. The possiblity for the technique to degenerate and not lead to alternative Tanglang techniques is, IMHO, great.

The technique itself is rather like the Pak Sao or Pie Shou the slapping hand implied in the Bo Choi, Pu Quan in many Tanglang sets. It deflects the opponent's bridge arms either allowing for vectoring to angles for attack or moving directly in with Coy Jern, (palm down open hand attack) or even clawing hands.

Is this similar to your experience? I have never conpared notes on this before and would welcome your comments.

I have a different numbering system on the pictures for LKW's pic. Under which technique is it listed?

Thanks again,

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Interesting description. :) Thanks for sharing your perspective.

I think, and I could be dead wrong, that it is basically hook grab pluck where the pluck is done with the rear hand. It is also shifting the right side lead to become left side lead. This would allow the exponent to gain control of the opponent who has a right side lead by applying a left feng shou. BTW, I mostly initiate with right hook but it is not necessary. There are about 3 types of footwork ending in 3 different stances for this move that I can find in CCK TCPM forms. One is in Zhaiyao, one is in Xia Bazhou, and one is in Danzhai Meihwa. Having said that TJPM in general is more straight in nomination of moves, meaing that the same strike in different stance might be called a different name. We have to bear that in mind. Other than that the principle and concept behind the move would remain much the same.

In CCK TCPM, the strike is with spear hand which means you are attacking with the finger tips. It could turn into a throat grab as well. I believe that TJPM/TJMHPM in general attacks with the palm edge (knife hand) to the face. It would seem this is the case with you as well.

Anyway, there are about 2 ways of attack that follow in the context of the forms. One is the stealing extension bottom leaking round house as in Zhaiyao. The other is, for lack of a better term, Gwa da in horse stance. But then of course, there are other "hidden" moves. All these depends on the counter of the opponent.

As for Lee Kam Wing's book, I don't seem be able to find Pao Shan Shou in there at all. If you have Lam Wing Kit's Quanpu book, I think you can find it on the page that I mentioned above.

Warm regards

Robert

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

I like your description of the movement and I appreciate greatly the reference in LWK's book (not LKW as I mistakenly read). I agree that this could qualify as Pao Shan, hence my reference to vectoring to a side in previous post.

Excellent and substantive example.

Steve Cottrell

[Tainan Mantis]

This technique appears as "3 climbing hand"
and also as "Mountain Climbing Hand" depending on which school you go to.

3 and mountain being pronounced san and shan.

Which is correct I can not say as they both seem valid.

This technique seems like a good example of the validity of having an old manuscript.
It looks like go-lou-tsai or shuang feng hands(double sealing hands)but the application as taught by my shrfu is different.

Also, like you said, it can easily degenerate to nonsense.
So it needs to be coupled with another technique for training.

I do like go-lou tsai,
but on the second hand(lou) the opponent also sticks out his second hand to strike me.
So my second hand deals with his second hand.
Then my third hand deals with his third hand.

Following the third hand is some other technique.

Mantis108,
The 3 climbing hands in the first road of zhai yao I do as double sealing hand with a palm strike following.
I think this is also how WHF writes it in his book.

That way is similar to go -lou-tsai.
The difference being that in the "seal" I press his elbow tightly against his body.

[mantis108]

Hi Sifu Cottrell,

Glad you like the description. :)

Hi Tainan,

I agreed with the double sealing hand. We do it that way as well except the strike is with the spear hand in Zhaiyao and the other forms that I mentioned.

BTW, I don't think "degenerate" is the real concern when it come to fighting with PM. In the context of form both solo and partnered, and perhaps even sparring, a technique that "straies" from the the design is no doubt not good. But for the sake of learning the truth to combat, "degenerate" is perhaps the "eye-opener" for the students. Because it is where the strength and the weakness of a technique lie. Just a thought.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

This technique is also written as Ba (hold) Shan Shou and Ba San (Three) Shou in Different Quan Pu. This Ba can also mean to pull down or rake down.
B.T

[mantis108]

Thanks for the info, Brendan. :)

I just received some materials including one of WHF's book "Random Writings on Praying Mantis" courtesy of Tainan (you are the best my friend). :D It helps to see a lot more about WHF the man and his experiences.

It would seem that Tainan is correct in stating that WHF's Tsai is one time hook grab pluck and zhan is twice hook grab pluck. The pluck here is not necessarily a strike. It is rather a quick pull or jerking motion. He also mentioned Tsai Tong Chui has a rhythm of 1-2-3.

So under this logic, Tsai San Shou, Pao Shan Shou, Ba San Shou etc.. would mean the same - doing one hook grab plus a strike (usually of a palm) with a left stance. Tsai Tong Chui would be a variations of this 1-2-3 rhythm.

If hook grab pluck is done twice, it is Zhan Nien by WHF's definition. CCK TCPM Sau Fa "Tanglang Puchan" would be a great example of that Zhan Nien definition.

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

Indeed Tainan is correct! In the WHF tradition the Tsai Shou is Go Lou Tsai and the Nien Shou is two Tsai Shou, either inside, outside on a single arm or more than one in sequence. Yet I am interested in the divisions made by others to enhance my own understanding such as Tsai San Shou, Go Lou Shou, Pao Shan Shou and others. THese often give insight in showing where one master made intellectual distinctions concerning technique. I do not abandon the categories of the WHF tradition at all. But I am interested in other's take on techniques.

Steve Cottrell

[ninjaboy]

boy o boy...is that glossary almost done...??? i could really dig into one right about now...

neil