martial arts in physical education

[shaolinarab]

you know, i always thought it would be a dream if all American kids learned martial arts as part of their P.E. classes because of all the great physical and mental benefits, of which i don't have to elaborate. i do miss the good ol' days of playing kickball or football in the field, but imagine how children would turn out if they learned martial arts from childhood (like some of you on the boards of course).
many kids experience the karate/TKD route at some point (how many told friends (who are now in 20's or 30's) you were studying martial arts who then responded, "cool. i studied MA a while back and got my TKD or karate black or brown belt when i was 9.") but then they never study MA again.
what would it take for such a dramatic change in elementary curricula? do we need to get arnie to help us do what he did in the 80's?
then again, many may be against this absurd idea because they would hate practicing something that would become seemingly 'mundane.' because we then wouldn't be able to say, ' i study the secret art of .... with this lineage.... ;)
well, where do you see the progression of martial arts training in America going? perhaps Fu pow cringes at the notion that we might eventually give up the wearing of the 'age-old' sashes and shoes and don overalls and sandals while practicing our forms?! :p

[Fu-Pow]

It would be cool to teach traditional MA's but not pseudo Chinese Japanese martial arts with made up forms.....:rolleyes:

[CaptinPickAxe]

But, alas, this is America, and Americans love TKD/Karate more than any Chinese MA. So the choice would be Karate or TKD.
You can thank the olymipics for the infatuation with both.

But then again, Chinese Martial Arts are on the rise...thanks in part to the nation-wide span of Shaolin-Do.

[David Jamieson]

Where I live in Toronto, There is a sifu who teaches Traditional Chinese martial arts in the public school system.

6 schools in the GTA have it as part of the official curriculum.

All it takes is community support and willing teachers to put it together and make it happen.

cheers

[PHILBERT]

It would most likely be Tae Kwon Do or Karate there, maybe Judo. The thing is though would be dealing with injuries. Injuries are common in Tae Kwon Do, versus say injuries found in dodge ball, even when you get beamed. Then there are personal grudges. You got Bobby Bully who likes picking on little Joey. Little Joey and Bobby Bully practice together, Bobby Bully will beat up little Joey whenever he can. Then there is the decision of who wants to learn it? How does one determine who does and does not practice? I'm sure some guys and girls ould be like "Gah I don't want to practice Tae Kwon Do."

It sounds great to the martial artists. Hell I wish I could go back to my sophmore year of high school and try out on the wrestling team, even though I am scrawny as hell. It is a great idea, however such an idea would never be good because too many questions would be raised.

[Xdr4g0nx]

and besides most parents will not want there kids learning beter ways to beat each other up. I have heard that some schools are even making anti-bullying rules that even prohibit certain kinds of stares. and even if the school do pick an art and start a program many parents would not allow kids to be discipline, like most classrooms in america today.

[PHILBERT]

Yes, the bullying has gotten way out of hand. Schools have tackled pretty much every subject imaginable and have ways of spotting the stuff. Drugs, alcohol, parental child abuse, etc. They really didn't know how to handle bullying, I should know. The little kid who gets picked on runs to the teacher and says he is being beat up on the playground, the teachers did NOTHING to prevent it. All they said "Well, I'm sorry. If you want, you can sit here and listen to us teachers socialize about our boring lives or you can go play on the playground and have fun while getting beat up."

Seriously, I know more about being bullied then most people combined. I wanted to kill myself, I wanted to drop out of school, I faked sick, I did whatever I could and the whole "Just hit him back" didn't work when you had 5 guys around you wailing on you. Teachers didn't give a **** **** about it either, they would literally, LITERALLY, LITERALLY turn there heads in the other direction and act like such a problem doesn't exist. Makes people wonder why:

1.) I have a short temper with bullies. I said if I ever see someone being bullied on my street (I live around the corner of both a junior high and elementary), I'd run the bully down with my car.

2.) A large amount of hate towards the public school system.

I can still name every person who bullied me really badly since first grade. Freaked out one of my friends, she thought I had some stupid hit list.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
But, alas, this is America, and Americans love TKD/Karate more than any Chinese MA. So the choice would be Karate or TKD.
You can thank the olymipics for the infatuation with both.

But then again, Chinese Martial Arts are on the rise...thanks in part to the nation-wide span of Shaolin-Do.

:p I think you're right! ;) one other thing that's exciting is that b/c Beijing has the seat for the 2010? olympics, china is pushing to add wushu into the games. that would be freakin awesome. there is that american wushu organization that has also been pressuring the olympic committee to allow wushu competition.

Kung Lek, that is awesome. that's exactly what it would take, good ol' grassroots and community activism. perhaps if more MAists get on school boards we can slowly bring martial arts into the curriculum.

Philbert, while I never quite had problems with bullies, I've always detested the fact that they exist. However, my belief is that if kids learned the discipline that is gained in martial arts training at a young age, fewer kids will turn into bullies. perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part, but there is a major discipline problem in american households, and a large part of the problem is that kids are spoiled and not disciplined when they misbehave, especially when they are malicious to another kid.

i understand that parents would be apprehensive of their kids learning how to fight, but they just have to be educated more about the MA. What would you rather see, a problem child making progress in MA, or the same kid on Jenny Jones facing Philbert's ol' dreadlocks-sifu in military fatigue (see his other post in 'why so much bashing')? :p

[old jong]

That was exactly what Kano had in mind for his Judo. He envisioned a psyco-physical educative art based on traditional japanes jujutsu but,without the most dangerous techniques for the practitioners. Judo ,because it was well adapted to the masses spreaded very well in the education system of Japan and Kano was awarded many "Imperial ranks" for his achievement. The more sportive latter evolution is another story.

Now,in order to do that ,we need a cohesive and united system!...Very hard to find,unless someone create it specially for the need. It would need to be "educative" and centered on the students ,not on lineage and masters or even cultural traditions.

[MasterKiller]

We teach Kung Fu at 2 elementary schools twice a week during the school year.

They pay us $50/class, and the kids love it.

[shaolinboxer]

MA programs in public schools are in their infancy in the US, which is one of the reasons I think a positive message needs to bee sent out to the public regarding the affective influences of training. Some programs have been extremely successful, mostly with primary schools kids. However, secondary school programs have had mixed results, have suffered law suits, etc. But we need to remember that wrestling IS a martial art and that it has been successfully integrted into many, if not most, schools. Wrestling is relatively safe, it is an international sport with well established governing bodies, and it is supported by a body of evidence that it addressed the needs of PE.

Actually, PE has 3 main subject areas that must be addressed: affective (social condiditoning), psyc****tor, and cognitive. Although it seems obvious that these three areas are all covered by the martial arts, it is up to us to provide empirical evidence of the validity of our claims.

the nature of physical education is constantly in debate. Are competitive sports really helping our kids? Does having a softball game with no score really make sense? Can we teach kids to punch and kick and expect them to be mature enough not to freak out and hurt one another? No one knows.

For every anecdote of a kids being "saved" by MA, there is another of a kids being "lost". It's up to us to tip the scale in our favor, one program at a time. But we cannot simply jump into PE and say "hey, we know what we're talking about so give us your kids and it'll all work out fine". We need to learn about the history of PE, it's intended place in our society, and adapt to the philosophies already in place. I think that if you do some reading (I suggest beginning reading articles defining "education of the physical" vs "education through the physical") you will see that the history of PE in western civilization, along with the inclusion of MA, dates all the way back to the age of Plato, whose very name means "broad shoulders" (given to him by his wrestling coach). Primarily, it is the issue of dualism that is at the core of the PE debate.

Blah blah blah...ONWARD!

[David Jamieson]

The whole "bully" thing has little to do with martial arts practice.

Generally, you would be hard pressed to find a dedicated martial artist who is a bully.

It is a cultural thing more than anything else. US culture needs to reflect upon a few serious "whys".

Charlton Heston actually had a couple of interesting things to say about American Culture in Moores Bowling for columbine movie, before Mike Moore went off in the wrong direction and made some ludicrous attempt at associating the nra and Heston with some problems that had occured.

Anyway, check it out, it's a bit left wing liberal shmaltz, but the underlying message is very revealing of the current american paradigm in regards to violence in society.

Not to mention I don't know how many times i've read "I'll just get a gun" as if that was a solution! This is quite perplexing to myself and I really don't know why someone would think like that without a second thought.

cheers

[Black Jack]

To suggest that Moore's totally bogus mockumentary is even close to the reflection of the US and what certain people pretend is a state of violence....groans....is just lame.

btw- martial arts is often taught in American schools. Its called wrestling.

[TonyM.]

Thanks Black Jack. You stole my thunder. I wrestled in school. To think our schools are more violent now than they were in the fifties and sixties is incorrect. Only mass murders are increasing. In the sixties and seventies Edmondson High in Baltimore averaged four murders a year.

[Black Jack]

TonyM:D

Most people tend to forget that the so-called era of love and flowerpower of the 60's was a total rollercoaster of violent crime.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Black Jack
To suggest that Moore's totally bogus mockumentary is even close to the reflection of the US and what certain people pretend is a state of violence....groans....is just lame.

btw- martial arts is often taught in American schools. Its called wrestling.

of course wrestling is MA. i wasn't neglecting it, but my question was about how we can make the MA more mainstream in PE from early primary school.

i may be wrong, but i am not aware of any wrestling programs before the junior high school level, whereas east asian martial arts have been incorporated into elementary schools in their respective countries.

shaolinboxer makes several good points. i guess it would really take an organization for the promotion of martial arts in elementary schools in order to develop empirical studies and possible curricula before major changes could take place. i guess they would start by examining some of the schools that already have experimented with it...
i'll put this on my list of top ten projects to be completed after medical school...:D

[shaolinboxer]

It is interesting to note that the founders of American Physical Education were all MDs.

['MegaPoint]

Yes most karate sucks. Most MAs and MAs schools suck. That's why folks are cross-training in martial sports now.

To lump all karate together out of the hundreds of so-called ryu out there is silly. Okinawan karate is very Chinese in its approach and a good Okinawan sensei will identify with the Chuan Shu aspects of their art, before the influence of the occupying force (the Japanese). If you look hard enough you will find good Uechi Ryu, Shorin Ryu and Goju Ryu dojo.

This type of karate could be taught at any level, with curriculum and intent changing as the demographics of the class' maturity level increases.

Although Japan now owns Okinawa, Okinawans, especially the older people and MAs sensei, are very independent and proud of the Chinese culture's influence on their country.

Once again, Japanese karate may be crap, but Okinawan karate is a different animal. BTW TKD does usually suck. There was a time when this was not true, but the "Olympification" of it destroyed its essence. It is very linear mided in its approach now. Hopefully this will not happen with Chuan Shu, but if Wu Shu is made an Olympic sport, you will all be doing Paul Mitchell tournaments soon :)...

['MegaPoint]

Wrestling is not a MA. It is a sport. It is limited in its scope and it is harmful for your health. A lot of the bullies at my HS were "wrasslers". Hugging men made them self-conscious and latent f@gs. They just had to hug as many men as possible, I guess. They used violence as an excuse to do this; always provoking fights or jumping cats. Wrestling contributes to BS macho attitudes and cauliflower ears.

What we've done in this country, or the world as a whole, has led to manifesting someone else's destiny, at the expense of the individual(s). Individuals make up teams. Even the Army understands this with their BS "Army of One" commercials. MAs makes good people, better humans. The powers that be won't go for that benevolent intent or possibilty.

If you can have violent sports like football and wrestling why not integrate a martial art that truly teaches self esteem and the responsibility of power? I've seen dozens of broken necks and bones (and even 3 deaths from football) in the E.R.. Why teach competitve and aggressive behavior to a bunch of testerone infused teen boys? Hell even girls could do it, and we can work towards that "E. Pluribus Unum" thing they spout about. They do mean from cacophony comes harmony, right? From many--one. Truly empower the individual, and get away from the dog-eat-dog mindset.

Naw, nevermind it'll never happen. Who wants a bunch of self-realized independent thinkers running around anyway? You might not be able to pull the wool over the sheep's eyes then...;)

[Black Jack]

Wrestling is not a MA. It is a sport. It is limited in its scope and it is harmful for your health. A lot of the bullies at my HS were "wrasslers". Hugging men made them self-conscious and latent f@gs. They just had to hug as many men as possible, I guess. They used violence as an excuse to do this; always provoking fights or jumping cats. Wrestling contributes to BS macho attitudes and cauliflower ears.-MegaPoint

Was that a joke or are you just like soooo g@y.

If it's a joke excuse me. If not man that was f@ckin retarded.:D