Praying Mantis Waist-Chop?

[mantisben]

Greetings Praying Mantis people,

My question is about the Praying Mantis Waist-Chop technique. It is the 4th and 5th technique in the WHF "Plum Blossom Hand" form. It is also found in Bung Bo in the 2nd road (Waist-Chop in a Bow & Arrow stance) and in the last road (Waist-Chop in a 7* stance).

My question is: When throwing the waist-chop, is it supposed to "push" the opponent with a "palm-heel" strike, or "strike" the opponent with the "side" of the hand as in a "palm-up" knife-hand strike?

I've always thrown the waist-chop as more of a push/strike with the "palm-heel" of my hand. Then I got to thinking about the word "Chop" and how a "Chop" is actually executed. I could be wrong, but a palm "Chop" should be executed with the "side" of the palm, like a "knife-hand" strike.

There is a difference in the body-mechanics of how the palm is thrown if it is a knife-hand "chop" strike as opposed to a palm-heel "push" strike.

Any information on this technique will be greatly appreciated.

[German Bai Lung]

In my opinion you throw your Opponent by grabbing the crossed arm and pull it to your side. at the same time you "chop" with a hard hit of the side of your hand to the ribs.

The technique is shown at the Lee Kam Wing Book page 110.

But if you push your opponent in a hurry with a palm and it works: okay, fine! ;)

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
... My question is: When throwing the waist-chop, is it supposed to "push" the opponent with a "palm-heel" strike, or "strike" the opponent with the "side" of the hand as in a "palm-up" knife-hand strike?

I've always thrown the waist-chop as more of a push/strike with the "palm-heel" of my hand. Then I got to thinking about the word "Chop" and how a "Chop" is actually executed. I could be wrong, but a palm "Chop" should be executed with the "side" of the palm, like a "knife-hand" strike.

There is a difference in the body-mechanics of how the palm is thrown if it is a knife-hand "chop" strike as opposed to a palm-heel "push" strike.
...

Hello Mantisben,

This is an interesting segment of the PFH set. For what it's worth I play it as a strike and/or a throw regardless I apply the palm strike the same way.

This because I've tried the strike as a knife hand (chop) and believe it to be weak or better put -- not sufficient for attacking the rear of the rib cage exposed by the intercept/hook.

So I practice the 'chop' as a 'push/chop' using palm heel at 45 degree angle, my target being the lower ribs and soft spot beneath it. I use the same hand method for the throw just apply more 'push' than 'chop'. Also, I favour strike for this technique.

regards,
UM.

[ninjaboy]

hey all,

personally, i feel that a practitioner should strive to learn how to apply any tactic in a variety of ranges. this variety of ranges will dictate what targets to apply the strike/push so as to fulfill your intent.

this variety of ranges will also dictate whether the technique evolves into either a strike and/or as part of a lever of sorts.

with combat being the horrible balistic activity that it is, i think it would be a mistake to limit yourself to a single application for a move in a form.

take into account one simple variable, such as: how close is your lead leg relative to your opponent? if you use the 7star stance as a generic example, look at all the questions that can arrise:

1. did you PLACE your foot into the 7* stance or did you default to it as part of a neutralization to a previous attack?

2. does your opponent have his right or left leg forward?

3. do you have your opponent's lead hand or rear hand?

4. is your 7* stance on his instep, behind his ankle, behind his knee or really deep so you hook his rear leg too to really throw him far. you could even injure his back and/or knees etc because of the twisting action you force on him, should you decide to trap his leg that you are using as a fulcrum and prevent it from moving.

5. let's assume a left foot forward 7* stance (pardon my rudimentary english descriptions but i don't speak chinese....yet). left hand is in control of opponent's left wrist pulling across oponent's body...

is the opponent's free hand above or below his own left arm? this may dictate a slight redirection of the pull and dictate whether it makes more sense to attack near the shoulder or the hip for maximum effect through leverage.

anyway you get the point. and maybe i have the whole idea wrong... maybe you're not supposed to consider these things....

but one thing is for sure, and i don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but the idea of that tactic being a 'chop' to the ribs doesn't seem like the kind of application that lends itself to an art that has a reputation of being 'battlefield effective'. chopping the ribs conjures up too many images of austin powers... "JUDO CHOP!!"

and another point consider...if this art is also supposed to be able to work for anyone, regardless of size, it needs to address the improbability of causing sufficient damage to end a confrontation with the 'rib chop' from a 112 lb person to a 200 lb + assailant (i'm not saying that you CAN'T, this is just as an example). leverage and superior position due to the high quality of our footwork combined with more vulnerable targets than the ribs is what we have in place to make this art a success.

IMHO

neil

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
In my opinion you throw your Opponent by grabbing the crossed arm and pull it to your side. at the same time you "chop" with a hard hit of the side of your hand to the ribs.

The technique is shown at the Lee Kam Wing Book page 110.

But if you push your opponent in a hurry with a palm and it works: okay, fine! ;)
Thank you very much!

Using your reference to the Lee Kam Wing book, I can see he is clearly using a "chop" in the "Waist-Chopping with Left 7* stance" in Bung Bo.

Also, in the Lee Kam Wing book, in Figure 648 of the "Praying Mantis Exits The Cave" form, as he executes the "Waist-Chop in the Circle Entering Stance" he appears to be using the heel of his palm. Similar techniques, but different stances. One is a side of hand "chop" in the 7* stance, and one is a palm-heel "push" in the Circle-Entering stance.

Could I alternately use the "chop" in the circle-entering stance?

I understand in PM there are different ways to apply the same technique. This technique may be one of them. Maybe it isn't.

Thanks again for your input!

[mantisben]

Originally posted by bungda07
Hi Mantisben, You mentioned Bung Bo, 2nd road, (Waist-chop in a Bow & Arrow Stance). I use the side of the palm to strike. It is not a push strike that I use. I have the other mantis hand pulling back at the same time the strike hits. This to me feels like you are using one of the five bows of the body. Sinking the chest, (Storing) then opening the chest (issueing). But, again side of palm.

Hope this helps,

V/r

Steve M.

Thank you for your response!

In the form, for this movement, I used to use the palm-heel push/strike in this movement. I only recently started using the side of palm chop. It seems to me that some people use the "chop", and some use the "push".

I've used the push in sparring, but not too successfully. It usually just turns into an ineffective palm-heel strike for me. After I can execute the "chop" in the form with power against a bag, then I'll try it during a sparring session.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
.. .. Could I alternately use the "chop" in the circle-entering stance?

I understand in PM there are different ways to apply the same technique. This technique may be one of them. Maybe it isn't.


Ninjaboy good points -- you crack me up with Austin Powers bit hahaha CHOP CHOP CHOP hahaha...

Mantisben, when I tried to figure what works best for me with this technique (PLH 4 & 5) I set myself opposite a great big kicking bag that is 7 feet tall and weights more than I do, then tried to see how much I could move it (the bag) with a 'chop' (NOT JUDO hahaha), first without the counter rotation movement pf PLH 4 & 5 and then with the rotation. I didn't move the bag very far at all in fact hardly made a dent. So I switched to the palm/heel/push/chop yelled loudly and lo -- the big bag moved several feet. So I concluded that to move anything heavy I better use more push than chop. I use the same method in circle-entering stance as well.

regards,
UM.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ursa major

...
So I practice the 'chop' as a 'push/chop' using palm heel at 45 degree angle, my target being the lower ribs and soft spot beneath it. I use the same hand method for the throw just apply more 'push' than 'chop'. Also, I favour strike for this technique.

regards,
UM.
This is exactly how I was taught to do this technique (45 degree angle palm-heel and all). You've already tried the "chop" and found it ineffective for you against a certain target. I've only recently started doing the "chop" and I am still experimenting with it.

A boxer punched me on some bone above my hip, right on my side, near my kidneys (fortunately it wasn't a real fight). He didn't hit me hard, but it was a show-stopper (for me). It felt like the flesh in that area slammed up against the bone in my hip, or something. Anyway, I doubled-over kinda sideways as he said "I told you it was gonna hurt", and never forgot the "sweet-spot".

One way to attack this point (I think) would be one of the many waist-chopping techniques.

Another thing about the "waist-chop" is that if I am going to use the side of my hand, I could probably attempt to "chop" the side of my opponents "neck", and still get a throw. It is much easier (for me) to chop the neck with a knife-hand, than with a palm-heel. But if I chop the neck, the technique is no longer a "waist-chop".:)

I understand my descriptions of the applications of the "chop" are all just heresay. Ultimately, I've got to try the technique in sparring to see if it works for me.

As always UM, thank you for your insight.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ninjaboy
hey all,

personally, i feel that a practitioner should strive to learn how to apply any tactic in a variety of ranges. this variety of ranges will dictate what targets to apply the strike/push so as to fulfill your intent.
I agree. That is sorta what I was trying to do when I started the thread. Sometimes (usually) I need another fighters view-point on a technique or tactic. This PM forum is excellent for that.


with combat being the horrible balistic activity that it is, i think it would be a mistake to limit yourself to a single application for a move in a form.
I know the "push" of the waist-chop, and now, trying to gain more out of this technique, am experimenting with the "chop". If I can get a "push" or a "chop" from the same technique in combat, :D


...
anyway you get the point. and maybe i have the whole idea wrong... maybe you're not supposed to consider these things....
...

You don't have it wrong, you're right on the mark.
I know some instructors feel I'm not supposed to consider these things, but I don't have an instructor.


...a 'chop' to the ribs doesn't seem like the kind of application that lends itself to an art that has a reputation of being 'battlefield effective'.
Although I couldn't "chop" someone's ribs and hurt them, I wouldn't doubt that some else could "chop" someones ribs and hurt them. If a person can break bricks with a "chop", and that same individual could "land" a chop on someones ribs, there is a chance he may break a rib or two, I think. Maybe those folks that break things with their hands aren't really breaking them (spacers, fake bricks, etc.).


...if this art is also supposed to be able to work for anyone, regardless of size, it needs to address the improbability of causing sufficient damage to end a confrontation with the 'rib chop' from a 112 lb person to a 200 lb + assailant (i'm not saying that you CAN'T, this is just as an example). leverage and superior position due to the high quality of our footwork combined with more vulnerable targets than the ribs is what we have in place to make this art a success.

IMHO

neil

Excellent post! I believe that PM will work for anyone, regardless of size, but I don't believe ALL pm techniques will work for anyone, regardless of size. In my opinion, some PM techniques are more suited to someone who is smaller and faster, and some PM techniques are more suited to someone who is bigger and stronger.

Thank you for your input! It sounds to me like you might use the waist-chopping technique for both chopping and pushing, and don't limit yourself to the "waist" being the target (shoulder and hip).

[Brazil Mantis]

Hi Mantisben,

I believe you refer with this technique as in cantonese Yiu Zhamn, as to lead kidney as I learned.

This is a very good question because in the past I used to practice this action as a knife as you discribe, but nowadays I train as a full palm strike action, as a push motion and I do feel better.

In some combinations as Lai Sifu used to teach, Yiu Zhamn was so useful, as for example, 1-2-3 technique, then Yiu Zhamn and a lot of others...

Best regards,

Samuel Mendonça

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Brazil Mantis
Hi Mantisben,

I believe you refer with this technique as in cantonese Yiu Zhamn, as to lead kidney as I learned.

This is a very good question because in the past I used to practice this action as a knife as you discribe, but nowadays I train as a full palm strike action, as a push motion and I do feel better.

In some combinations as Lai Sifu used to teach, Yiu Zhamn was so useful, as for example, 1-2-3 technique, then Yiu Zhamn and a lot of others...

Best regards,

Samuel Mendonça
I have "The Living Legends" tape with Sifu Brendan Lai demonstrating the waist-chop technique in the 7* stance. It was definitely a push, and definitely effective!

He knew how to make this technique work well! He executed Yiu Zhamn from Ou-Lou-Tsai, and from Tung Chui (Reverse Punch).

Thank you for your input!

[tanglang]

Funny..wanted to post the same..
I have "The Living Legends" tape with Sifu Brendan Lai demonstrating the waist-chop technique in the 7* stance. It was definitely a push, and definitely effective!
My take for that: If I want to use this technique in sparring, I execute it as a pushing-movement more- and for me it works only with a relatively light training-partner. With more heavy guys I haven't managed to get them over my leg so far and usually try other techniques.. For small and light people there are better ones, I think..though it's a nice "surprise" for your opponent, if the technique works..
In the form I do it as a knife-movement .

[German Bai Lung]

the problem (in my opinion!) is:
do I want to hurt my sparringpartner seriously? No. So we use in sparring the push instead of the knife.
If I use the knife-hand correct in sparring I´ll hurt the kidneys or the ribbs!

So for me: to throw my opponent I use a palm (best to the shoulder, like in Dai Cha Doi Da) but if it is necessary to hurt AND to throw I would take the knife-hand.

Why limiting to one technique?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
the problem (in my opinion!) is:
do I want to hurt my sparringpartner seriously? No. So we use in sparring the push instead of the knife.
If I use the knife-hand correct in sparring I´ll hurt the kidneys or the ribbs!

So for me: to throw my opponent I use a palm (best to the shoulder, like in Dai Cha Doi Da) but if it is necessary to hurt AND to throw I would take the knife-hand.

Why limiting to one technique?
A PM guy used the waist-chop technique on me soo effectively, I was shocked at how out-of-control I felt on the way to the floor! He used a palm-push to my "shoulder", and the 7* stance behind my right leg. Who would've thought, the "waist-chop" technique to the shoulder... Well, German Bai Lung thought of it, and the guy that threw me to the floor! I hit the floor soo arkwardly, I couldn't believe it!

[mantis108]

Waist chop in TJPM/TJMHPM lineages is IMHO different from 7 Stars interpretation of the Waist Chop.

Waist Chop in traditional mantis as far as I understand is actually breaking the opponent's back [re: the spine]. It is like the ancient Chinese death penalty - waist chop that would have the body cut into 2 halves. It is pretty brutal. In this mantis technique, it is not easy to pull off and looks wier in the solo form. But it is an awesome sight when it is applied poperly.

I believe the one that is more of a throw is Jade Ring Hand (Yuhuan Shou) which became threading needle waist chop (7 star stance), kneeling stacne waist chop and hill climbing stance waist chop variants in 7 stars.

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

It is not a straight 'chop' in Qixing in China, more of a slicing push which of course hits hard but at a diagonal angle not straight out from the edge of the palm. I agree with 108 about the aim of this 'cutting' action. Twisting the skeleton and putting a great deal of pressure on the spine is the main aim, especially when the rear arm is trapped (as waist cutting can be done off either the opponents lead or rear arm).
b.t