Meaning of Form-Names

[German Bai Lung]

Today I stopped by my training and was thinking about some names of forms.

I.E. Yat/Yee lou ba chou kuen
or the form dan chap fa kuen (mantisben mentioned it)

I mean: not only the translation, but the MEANING of the name.

What do you think? Do you got some forms you absolutly know what the meaning is?

:confused: :rolleyes:

[German Bai Lung]

I.E.:

I wonder of the Name: Ba Chou... to rule with ellbow, tyranical ellbow etc...

Hmm, maybe the Character mean more the Dynastie Chou and therefor the Tyran of that age?
Or does it mean: to rule the opponents ellbow? (for there are no countless strikes "with" the ellbow!)
That is a meaning that suits me fine ...

Or Dan Chap/Tsap Fa Kuen:

We translated it: stick one flower... (and two when it called sjeong chap fa) ... but what does it means for sure? To thrust like a flower? To thrust with a flower?

[B.Tunks]

Hi Bai Lung.

I learnt that to 'insert' flowers means to add more beauty to something that is already beautiful. Such as inserting flowers into some embroidery work. I am sure some of the native chinese speakers on here would have a better way of explaining this.
The movement in the mainland version is certainly a piercing/inserting strike.
B.T

[Tainan Mantis]

In the 6 Harmony form"Hide the flower in the mirror"

I was taught that when you place flowers by the mirror then you have double the amount of flowers and they are next to each other.

This represents the hands.
They should be next to each other.

German,
Is it possible the Ba character for tyrant should be the Ba character for 8?

I know of 8 elbows, but not tyrant elbows.

Both are Ba Zhou.

[German Bai Lung]

Hmm,

the charakters my Sifu gave me are definetly not 8. 8 is very simple in chinese and the charakter for ba3 (to rule with might rather than right!) http://www.bailung.de/9738.gif is quite more difficult ... ;)

Some people translate the form only with: ba ellbow... ?

[Tainan Mantis]

German,
I have a lot of resource material, but nothing that shows your writing of 8 Elbows to be Tyrant Elbows.
You may possibly have a different form with a similar name.

Can you tell me what history of it that you know?

Something about form names to think of that makes it hard to find the meaning of forms.

In Mantis most every form name has several different variations in the characters used.

In most cases it causes a considerable difference in the meaning.
While sometimes it may seem simple to pick which is right and which is wrong most of the time it is not.

A well known example in the MA world is the name Shaolin.
From ancient times several different characters have been used.

If it weren't for the fact that the original temple still stands we may not know which were the original characters of that famous temple.

Here are some Mantis forms that the character-and meaning-is difficult to verify.
Beng bu
Luanjie
Ba Zhou
Duo Gang
Ro Ling
Zhai Yao 1-7(the common writing of this is most definetly correct)
Hsiao Hu Yen(Little Tiger Swallow)
Pai An(2 man only)
Tie Men Suan(Wah Lum's Little Mantis)
Shr Ba So(18 Elders)
etc.

TRUE STORY
I went to visit Mantis108 and I did a form that my shrfu had learned fron his shrfu called Shr Feng Dao or Ten Direction Saber.

He also said it is Shr Feng Dao, but the characters are Testing Blade Saber which is also pronounced Shr Feng Dao.

If we had waited another generation then the correct and original meaning might be hard to figure.

[German Bai Lung]

Hi TaiNan,

sorry, but I don´t know about some history of the ba Forms.
Only the techniques I can describe.
And that there are no ellbow strikes in both forms only strikes TO the ellbows! So in my opinion the character of chou/zhou is kind of interesting...

[mantis108]

I agreed with Tainan. The problem is that a lot of the forms are really old and a lot of times they were handed down via oral teaching. In the old days, many teachers were illiterate and they don't have Quanpu or notes. All that they have were in their brians. The Kung Fu community has lost so much stuff if not for some of the more educated elders who documented.

In HK, we had a hard time understanding GM Chiu because of his accent and all. The shr feng dao, as I was told, is a short form that was designed to test new saber blades (weight , dimension, and feel). It contains all of the principle moves of saber; hence, the name shr (testing) feng (sharpened edge of blades). BTW feng also sounds exactly the same as "wind" and similar to "directions". Some manuscripts has "wind" instead of "blade" which is more of a pun IMHO. Because the form should also be play like the wind blowing fast. It is after all a very short form. We were also shown the way to hand over the saber or sword for testing. It is done so that it won't offend or antagonize the person you are presenting the blade to.

Incidently, PM form names sometime has alias. For example, Lanjie has an alias "hooks".

Mantis108

[German Bai Lung]

So maybe its the best in these days to collect all the Form names and the chinese characters!
Then to ask and add the meaning of the names!

I think it would be a great loss when all the names and meanings get lost!

I can´t help, but I think thats a work for Tainan Mantis... :P

[Tainan Mantis]

Robert,
Where did you hear that Luanjie AKA hooks?

I only remember Ilya said that it is called Meihua in the Liang Hsuehsiang manuscript.

German,
I think that your Ba Zhou is not the old Mantis 8 Elbows form if it isn't filled with elbows.

Maybe your Ba Zhou is the 7* HK version which is also known as 8 Talons or Ba Zhua.

That form has relatively fewer elbow moves.
The beginning (8-9 moves)starts off similar to the HK 7* Zhai Yao forms.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

German,
I think that your Ba Zhou is not the old Mantis 8 Elbows form if it isn't filled with elbows.

Maybe your Ba Zhou is the 7* HK version which is also known as 8 Talons or Ba Zhua.

That form has relatively fewer elbow moves.
The beginning (8-9 moves)starts off similar to the HK 7* Zhai Yao forms.

Yupp, the beginning is similar to the ja yiu / zhai yao forms. Also the feeling and shadow ...

Which chinese character do you mean with ba zhua?

ahh, talon: zhua or zhao, cantonese: jaau

hmm, so both characters are not correct?

[Tainan Mantis]

So, it is probably 8 Talons.
2 Long forms.
There are others here who know more about it than I do.

As far as I know they only exist in some of the HK 7* schools.
I have been trying to find the history of these forms for over a year.

[German Bai Lung]

here are the names of the hand and weaponforms like I used to know it:

www.bailung.de/formenliste.htm (http://www.bailung.de/formenliste.htm)

I added the cantonese, mandarin, german and english Names.

The english names are poorly translated by myself...

[mantis108]

You are right about Luanjie aka Meihwa in GM Liang XueXiang's manuscripts which Ilya Profatilov pointed out. I think piror to Ilya's research very little is known about the manuscripts and their contents at least outside of Shandong.

Lanjie, which I believe should be Luanjie, is said to be known as "the hooks" in a Taiwan TV show. I believe you have a copy of that show and quite a few people in the Mantis community have that as well. Lanjie, including your teacher's version, was played a few times through out the show. Also in a "New Martial Hero" Magazine article concerning CCK TCPM dated arround the 70s, It also talked about Lanjie being a form that is about the use of the mantis claws.

Going through the form, we found the following characteristics:

1) There are ample of chopping and cutting techniques reminiscent of axes, knifes, and spear type of motions (ie Wuda Lianhuan Pi, Ti Pi Tian Fen, Xiunu Chuanzhen, etc). These are often coupled with the hooking motions.

2) Luan as you pointed out before could be a word describing or defining moving or attacking left and right. There plenty examples of such flanking movements "connected" or rather merged into a central point eventually expressed as forward strike or takedown.

3) The form in general seems to be in keeping with the spirit of Bazhou. At least most of the wrist elbow techniques are similar if not identical.

4) We have no further details as to why the form has an alias of Meihwa (Plum Blossom) in GM Liang's quanpu. It would seem IMHO that the openning move Wuda Lianhuan Pi fits the designation both in numeric value (five) and in pattern (cross shape). It is possible IMHO that together with the following moves just until the Xiunu Chuanzhen (Lady threading needle) depicts the plum blossom's shape or its movement in the wind.

It is also of note that in CCK TCPM, the DanZhai Meihwa form also has lots of similar Ti/Tiao (lifing) and Pi (chopping) techniques. Could Ti/Tiao Pi types of techniques be symbolic of Meihwa (the flower) movements? That would have to be thoroughly researched.

Warmest regards

Robert

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
...
I mean: not only the translation, but the MEANING of the name.

What do you think? Do you got some forms you absolutly know what the meaning is?

:confused: :rolleyes:
Well, I was studying the form "Duo Gang" (Avoid Power, Avoiding the Rigid), and it kinda dawned on me that, most of the techniques in "Duo Gang" counter-attack the opponents right-hand strikes (the way I learned the form).

Since most people are right-handed (no offense to the leftys), I was thinking that maybe "Avoid Power" means "Avoiding the powerful attacks made by your opponents right-hand". There are a few techniques in this form that block the left-hand, but by far, most of the techniques in "Duo Gang" involve counter-attacking your opponents right-hand.

This is my OWN observation of this form, and I could be totally off the mark.

Also, "Duo Gang" doesn't contain any Chopping Hammer-Fist strikes, which I also found unusual. All of the PM forms I know contain at least 1 Chopping Hammer-Fist strike. But not "Duo Gang", at least how I learned it...

Actually, a Chopping Hammer-Fist strike could probably be used as the 4th technique of the 3rd road (right after the upward-elbow strike), but I was taught this chop was more like the chopping forearm block used in the 1st road of the "14 Roads" form (Power-Forcing Fist?).

I'd like to add that I don't know the "Ling" side to the form "Duo Gang". Maybe the "Ling" side of the form would be more telling as to whether the techniques in "Duo Gang" are mostly countering the right-handed attacks by the opponent, or not.

[Tainan Mantis]

mantisben,
Did you know that this form contains moves called Left and Right Duo Gang?

They are the kicks to left and right near the beginning of the form.
The form has strong forward moving energy, but at those 2 moves you go slightly backward and to the sides, hence avoiding his "gang."

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
mantisben,
Did you know that this form contains moves called Left and Right Duo Gang?

They are the kicks to left and right near the beginning of the form.
The form has strong forward moving energy, but at those 2 moves you go slightly backward and to the sides, hence avoiding his "gang."
Is this the same "slightly backward and to the sides" movement also found in Sa Pa Sao (18 Elders form)? In this movement, I retreat as you said, but I land in a 7* stance.

How I learned the form, there are only 3 kicks in the form. A chest-piercing kick at the end of the 1st road, a simultaneous "Mo Poon Sao" palm-strike and toe-kick, and another chest-piercing kick towards the end of the form.

You are absolutely right about the "forward moving energy" of this form. Excellent choice of words.

[Young Mantis]

Mantisben,

I think it would not be surprising at all that the forms would seem to favor the right side. I find our style to be very much power side forward and typically through most of the forms, not only are you defending against right lead attacks, most techniques in the forms utilize the right side for striking.

Since we are talking about "Daw Ghong", just in the first road, the number of right hand strikes as opposed to left hand strikes is huge. So while we seem to be defending against mostly right hand attacks, which by the way is true in the ling form, we are also attacking and countering with mostly right side techniques.

In China, it was thought that left-handedness was wrong and many children who naturally reached out with their left hand to write or hold chopsticks were "corrected".

A fun exercise to do though is to practice your forms once in a while as a mirror image, that is change sides. Many of our leftys do this and I think it's a good exercise for righty's as well. I believe though that the style was developed to be power side forward and while I do train my left side, I still favor and train more extensively my right.

YM

oh, and yes, the moves you describe are what Tainan brought ups as originally called left and right "daw ghong". I too was not taught them to be kicks but evasive maneuvers, hence avoiding the rigid.

[German Bai Lung]

Yeah, thats my headword:

the do gong kuen has "5" kicks in the LKW lineage:
one in the 1st road, than one along with the mo bun jeong (a bai mun toi), and at the end again three chuen sam tois: 2 with handclapping and one with the right feet from behind along with a cast off ....

The Kicks along with the "do gong" movement I only know from the yi lou mui fa toi kuen: in that form we perform a sidekick while going to the sides... although its the same movement you can apply it in the do gong as well!


For the righthanded attacks:
I think it would be better to train the applocations with any possible attack: you can apply the techniques as a road whether your opponent attacks first with the right hand or the left!
Applikations must work on nearly all situations! You can´t afford telling your opponent: hey, please move and hit me with your right hand, for I am a mantis practioner! (okay, just kidding!) :D

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
For the righthanded attacks:
I think it would be better to train the applocations with any possible attack: you can apply the techniques as a road whether your opponent attacks first with the right hand or the left!
Applikations must work on nearly all situations! You can´t afford telling your opponent: hey, please move and hit me with your right hand, for I am a mantis practioner! (okay, just kidding!) :D

I don't agree with this statement. I do not believe I have to force a technique to work in every possible situation. I would rather train to recognize or better yet reflexively react with the best possible counter attack in each situation. If every application was forced to work in all situations, then why so many techniques in our style? Why not train just a handful to work against everything. Why practice applying so many different techniques?

Of course it is not possible to ask my opponent to only strike me with his right hand, but I would not necessarily use choi sahm sau in every situation. Use the best tool for each job. I think the most important part of Mantis fighting is being able to adapt to the situation. That does not mean adapting a specific technique to work in every situation but instead to be able to change and adapt which technique or strategy to use in a given situation.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantisben,
This Duo Gang move is also in 18 Elders.
Originally it had a different name in that form.
I don't have the book with me and I forget.
I think it was Left and Right Dodging Step.

WHF explains why he changed the name of this techinique in the 18 Elders form.

I think the HK 7* has a different application from how we learn it in Taiwan because I have seen HK 7* people do the move a little differently.

On the vidclips I posted it includes this specific technique so you can easily see if my app is the same as yours.

[German Bai Lung]

Humhom,

Young Mantis, I don´t know if we understand eachother right... can you please write in german?
(ok, my funny day today...)

What I meant to say: a technique should not limitated to just one possible application! But it´s the logik that tells you not to use bo choi against a bek choi!
I mean: when your opponent stads in left or right hill climbing stance and attacks you with a straight punch, you can apply bo choi in all that situations! But not in every situation!

I don´t like the limitated applications of some folks going: "ok, this will work if only my opponent stands left arr no I mean right and then punches with left.... "
You know what I mean? Thats not a practicable fighting system!
If you want to throw your opponent its not necessary that he stands left or right in front: just grab and pull hard enough ... :)

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
Humhom,

Young Mantis, I don´t know if we understand eachother right... can you please write in german?
(ok, my funny day today...)

What I meant to say: a technique should not limitated to just one possible application! But it´s the logik that tells you not to use bo choi against a bek choi!
I mean: when your opponent stads in left or right hill climbing stance and attacks you with a straight punch, you can apply bo choi in all that situations! But not in every situation!


GBL,

Humhom? No idea what that means. Sorry can't write in German. You want to try Chinese? ;)

I agree that a given technique can have mulitple applications...actually, I think multiple variations of a given application is more precise.



I don´t like the limitated applications of some folks going: "ok, this will work if only my opponent stands left arr no I mean right and then punches with left.... "
You know what I mean? Thats not a practicable fighting system!
If you want to throw your opponent its not necessary that he stands left or right in front: just grab and pull hard enough ... :)

If I want to throw my opponent, I will use the throw that best suits that particular situation. Sometimes it won't matter which leg my opponent has in front, sometimes it might. For example, if using the "dung pok" takedown, it doesn't matter to me which leg the opponent has in front. He will just end up either face up or face down. But if using say the 7* stance waist chop for takedown, then if he has left foot forward, it would be better for me to use right 7* stance and vice versa so I may have to change stance but still same application. I would not "just grab and pull hard enough". If I have to struggle to pull him for a throw, then I should be using some other technique.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


But if using say the 7* stance waist chop for takedown, then if he has left foot forward, it would be better for me to use right 7* stance and vice versa so I may have to change stance but still same application. I would not "just grab and pull hard enough". If I have to struggle to pull him for a throw, then I should be using some other technique.

YM

Yes, you are right.
In that case you choose the best technique to work out the same result: throw the opponent.
I agree absolutely, that NOT every technique could work on both sides. But most of.