Are the FMA really CMA?

[rogue]

I mean CMA as in California Martial Arts. For awhile I've heard some Phillipino guys comment on what is called Arnis and Eskrima here in the US isn't what is studied there and most of what we know as FMA is really from the Phillipino community in CA. Never gave it much thought until a guy that I know and respect personally made the same comment in passing. He also made mention that many of the guys over there train karate or kung fu besides what stick and knife work they know. Has anybody else heard this?:confused:

[Stranger]

No.

You might not find the word "kali" used in the PI until it became popular over here, but the techniques are the same and the art predates the "Chino" immigration to CA.

[yenhoi]

sounds like you have been hanging out at www.defend.net

:eek:

[Stranger]

roger that, yenhoi. ;)

[rogue]

You caught me Yenhoi.:p But like I said I never gave it much thought until someone I personally know who is from the Philippines and from whom I'll be taking lessons from mentioned it in passing at a cookout. I'll have to bring it up with him next time I see him but, I was surprised about the Kung Fu and Karate training and it may be why his work somehow looks different from other stick work that I've seen.

[apoweyn]

Rogue,

Have you read the interview with Grandmaster Canete on my website? (Under "Articles")

http://www.apoweyn.net/martialarts/index.htm

It might shed some light on what training is like in the Philippines proper. Or at least what it was like.



Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

I do wonder how legitimately "filipino" things like kino mutai are. Not to say that it isn't effective. But things like that tend to get packaged as being "part of a system" over here. I have a sneaking suspicion that in the Philippines, something like that is probably little more than an acknowledgment that it's possible to bite someone in a fight.

[rogue]

Nice Ap, even mentions that Cañete
trained in Shorin ryu which I believe OmegaPoint says is popular in the Philippines. I'm wondering if the guys in the Philippines just don't see a line between their Escrima and the other arts that they study, while here there is a separation. Maybe comes from that here in the states we're looking for something superior to the other things instead of seeing it as a part or complimentary to whatever else we do.

[Black Jack]

I think over there in the homeland it is more about just taking what works, keeping it real and alive, its more about fighting then focusing on style ego.

Remy Presas was a high ranked dan in jujitsu, karate as well as a master of a number of different arnis systems and his family style of palis-palis. He incorporated everything he found worthy into his FMA knowledge.

[rogue]

There was an article in I think Filippino Martial Arts and the guy that it was about was doing Kung Fu. Wish my wife hadn't tossed it out.

Ap, if I tried to market the American art of Biting and Eye Poking everyone would laugh. Matter of fact it has been done and done quite well by grand masters Larry, Moe, Curly and Shemp! But if you're trying to market to a certain segment you have to make it exotic, and if you want to sell tapes you need a training regime. Personally I think the entire KM thing was invented by Vunak to hide some of his bad cooking on some really cheap steaks. It's not tough meat at a BBQ, it's training KM in Pauls backyard!:D

I also thought the quote
These two systems were always practiced together, so that you could always say that Doce Pares was a real self-defense system because it is not only pure eskrima. It is combined with hand techniques. was interesting.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
Nice Ap, even mentions that Cañete
trained in Shorin ryu which I believe OmegaPoint says is popular in the Philippines. I'm wondering if the guys in the Philippines just don't see a line between their Escrima and the other arts that they study, while here there is a separation. Maybe comes from that here in the states we're looking for something superior to the other things instead of seeing it as a part or complimentary to whatever else we do.

I definitely think that's part of it. And I agree with Black Jack's post (just below yours) that there's less emphasis on the packaging. If it works and it addresses a need you have, grab it. Here in the States, we seem to like having everything nice and prepackaged. We want THE style that addresses everything. We want everything to have names. Etc.

Listening to GM Canete, it was more like, "sometimes I drop my stick; better learn to fight without one too."

When we hear a term like "pangamot", we automatically think, Pangamot (with a capital P). That's the filipino style of empty hand fighting. Whereas I think for filipinos, it's just an acknowledgment that sometimes ya gots to fight without a weapon. Nothing fancier than that.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
There was an article in I think Filippino Martial Arts and the guy that it was about was doing Kung Fu. Wish my wife hadn't tossed it out.

Hmm... That might have been about kuntao. Billy Bryant perhaps. Kuntao is a highly chinese FMA. I won't pretend to know much more about it than that.


Ap, if I tried to market the American art of Biting and Eye Poking everyone would laugh. Matter of fact it has been done and done quite well by grand masters Larry, Moe, Curly and Shemp!

Their "kiai" sounds more like "woop woop woop" if memory serves.


But if you're trying to market to a certain segment you have to make it exotic, and if you want to sell tapes you need a training regime. Personally I think the entire KM thing was invented by Vunak to hide some of his bad cooking on some really cheap steaks. It's not tough meat at a BBQ, it's training KM in Pauls backyard!:D

Yeah, I think Paul Vunak is just a cunning alter ego for the dread wendigo. :)

Yeah, I thought that quote was interesting too. Largely because of the complete lack of irony involved. In a different conversation, you could have said, "how can you say Doce Pares is complete when you've got to swipe a large portion of Shorin Ryu to address empty hand?" And that's a valid point. But I suspect that if you said something like that, GM Canete might look at you like you were a bit daft and say something like, "there was a need; karate filled it; problem solved."

Much less stress about lineage, purity, etc.


Stuart B.

[rogue]

Much less stress about lineage, purity, etc. Heretic!;)
It's funny how often we try to make something pure that was a mutt from the get go.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
Heretic!;)
It's funny how often we try to make something pure that was a mutt from the get go.

Ain't it though. :)

[AndyM]

Originally posted by rogue
I mean CMA as in California Martial Arts. For awhile I've heard some Phillipino guys comment on what is called Arnis and Eskrima here in the US isn't what is studied there and most of what we know as FMA is really from the Phillipino community in CA.

Hi Rogue,

in some ways, people like the Dog Brothers in CA are taking a path back to what FMA was about.
While FMA in the Phillipines are arguing over who is more authentic/honorable/qualified etc, they're just getting on with it.

AndyM