Getting burned by having a knife

[Tyger]

I know there have been variations of this
question before, but since the topic is fresh
in my mind I wanted to bring it up again. What
do you see as the problems with carrying a knife?

Do you think it creates a false sense of sec-
urity? Is a person more likely to hurt them-
selves than their attacker if they aren't highly
trained to use a blade? Since I started training
to use a knife a few weeks ago I've wondered if
I might want to carry one but my Shifu warns me
that although ethicly it may be okay, I will al-
most always seem like a bad guy in the eyes of
the law. I don't really want to go out and cut
anybody up, but if a big guy comes at me, having
a knife might defuse the situation and give me
a chance to get out before blows are thrown. Am
I just kidding myself with this one?

I know that it's better to be tried by 12 than
carried by 6, but is carrying a knife more
trouble than it's worth? And if not, what do you
need to do to make having a knife an asset?

Thanks

If you want to be great, you have to stop wanting and simply be.

[Budokan]

I've got a news flash for you. Having a knife or any other weapon isn't necessarily going to "defuse" a situation where a big guy is coming at you. Martial arts is all about avoidance. That's a basic philosophical rule everyone knows but few practice with diligence.

Having said that, I don't see anyting inherently wrong by carrying a knife, (as long as it's legal)m but it's your sifu's call and your ultimate decision whether or not you want to heed his advice. Just remember: a knife is as much trouble or as much help as the person carrying it.

K. Mark Hoover

[JerryLove]

*banging head against wall*

A martial art is about cultivating skills suitable for war or a warrior (by definition). More specifically, it's about personal combat skills.

Martial awareness and strategy often involve identifying and avoiding threats and siituations (remember, the goal is usually centered around your safety) but that is hardly what martial arts are "about". Ask a police officer if his suspect apprehension training was about avoiding contact with the suspect.

That said. A knife is a weapon. It is an escilation of conflict. Sometimes a fight goes until someone is unnerved and flees, other times it goes until one participant can no longer fight.

A knife in someone's hands makes them a more dangerous opponent. Even untrained, it is quite deadly. In fact, I've seen many "knife training" methods that were downright counterproductive, the person would have been better off with no training.

Now, as to your "do I want to carry a knife" question. Ask yourself if you will need it. If you carry your knife, and you get into fights, there is a good chance you will pull it. If you pull it, there is a good chance someone dies.

I agree, I would rather kill than die. The question is "Is that the other alternative?". If you don't carry a knife and you don't win the next fight what will happen? Is that worse than carrying the knife and winning the fight? Only you can answer that. But if you find that you should indeed be carrying that knife, shouldn't you also be carrying a firearm?

To the other person's comment on becoming over-confident. That is always a danger. It is "not the knife's fault". The knife improves you chances of killing your opponent. The trick is learning not to make your fighting decisions based on that belief.

I'll share a bit of my own philosophy. I only fight someone that I would fight even if I knew I was going to loose. In other words, my confidence in winning plays no part in my decision to fight. I fight when the cause is just (or forced) enough that I am willing to fight and loose. Besides, that way, when his friend shoots me in the back, at least I won't go "****, I made the wrong decision".

Jerry - www.clearsilat.com (http://www.clearsilat.com)

[This message was edited by Jerry Love on 04-23-01 at 03:07 PM.]

[joedoe]

In my mind, introducing a weapon into a situation escalates it into the deadly area, particularly knives. If you pull a knife, you'd better be dammed sure that you are willing to use it - and I mean really use it. Otherwise you're better off leaving it at home.

I always consider the fact that if I introduce a weapon, then it is quite possible that the weapon may be used against me.

You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[JerryLove]

AAARRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!! *bangs head again*

Groaner response #2 rears it's ugly head "the weapon will be taken and used against you".

Statistically, a weapon in you hand is far more likely to be used by you than against you. Don't believe me? Why do you think security forces arm themselves?

If you've god 10 minutes of decent training and someone takes you knife, I will be impressed. Further, he could have easily killed you anyway, so the fact that he has a knife makes little difference.

[joedoe]

I'm not saying that it WILL happen, I am saying that it CAN happen. In any fight, unexpected things happen. You can be the best trained fighter in the world but you can be unlucky too.

Yes security forces carry weapons. Having a weapon does not ensure victory in a fight, and it does not ensure that you will be the one wielding the weapon at the end.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[Terry]

Keep in mind that if you pull a knife with the intention of just scaring the other (unarmed) guy off, you are now considered the attacker by law regardless if the guy is much bigger than you. If the police should arrive at the scene, who do you think would get shot first - you or your unarmed attacker? A little food for thought.

[Lucky Red]

it is best not to carry knife at all if you cannot use it (and is prepared to use it)

i asked this friend of my if i should wear a knife and if it was going to be smart

he said know this if you clench youre fist they grab after there knife if you grab youre knife they whip out there gun and shoot at you the best thing you do is run no matter or just give the money how good you are in Ma if you are like the majority of people you dont really want to stab people you are not "emotinel Destroyed" like those people like attack other people and use knife on people you have an emotinel barrigae against it those seconds is all they need to stab you ten times

and aslo this was said by my father about guns and stuff if someone points a gun in youre face no matter how little the hole in the gun is it seem like a tunnel you are not so tough when
that happens to you

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[JerryLove]

Retort with generic situational response #1 and #2 "Shoot them" and "run".

Here is a hint, in any violent confrontation where you hvae the ability to run, run.

In any confrontation where violence has been forced and running is not a viable option, and you can shoot, shoot.

You can apply this to any argument here. It is irrellevent, I hope we can move on the the issue of weather or not to carry a knife now.

Yes, a weapon does not ensure victory. It does increase greatly the chances of inflicting damage. Security forces do no always win a confrontation, and when they do, it is not always because they are armed. They would be less able to win confrontations without armaments. Ditto millitary forces.

Yes, you may loose the weapon. You may also get run over by a car in the middle of the fight. This is a non-issue. You are not in more danger against a person who wishes to kill you because you are armed.

Someone is unlikely to attempt to draw from a clinch after your knife is in play.

If you pull a knife with the intention of scaring someone, than you are stupid and your soon-to-happen death is natural selection removing such ideas from the gene pool.

To give you a hint on my perspective, my art has slaps to the opponent at the same time you cut. With a sharp knife the nerve endings firing from the slap outweigh the nerve endings fired from the knife cut. The idea is to get as many important arteties (wrist, neck, underarm, clavical, groin, inner leg, etc) as possible without the opponent realizing that the cutting is occuring.

I am unlikely to pull a knife, but if I do, I am not waving it, I am not "scaring you", I am not trying to get you to back down. I am trying to slaughter you like a sacrifical lamb. It's that simple. The puropse of a blade is to kill. In personal combat, a knife is a very effective means of doing so that adds greatly to the combat potiency of the wielder.

[Anarcho]

I was thinking about this when someone on this forum (unfortunately I can't remember his name) said that he'd been mugged by a group of people who basically just walked up to him and began attacking him before he knew what was going on. If he'd been carrying a weapon in that situation, they certainly would have found it and, if not used it against him, at least stolen it and possibly used it against someone else.

I guess that's something to consider when thinking about carrying a weapon. Often it's the one you don't see coming that gets you...

I'm also not sure if I'd ever find myself in a situation in which I'd actually use a weapon. If someone wants my money, I'd honestly much rather give it to them than stab or shoot them, even if I was sure I could do it effectively. I would imagine that it's very rare for someone to use a weapon on you after you've given them what they want - it seems that they'd want to get out of there as soon as possible.

I realise that not everyone feels this way, and a lot of people argue that as soon as someone pulls a weapon on you they have effectively forfeited their right to life. You can make a strong argument for that position, too...I guess it's just a matter of how you prefer to deal with that kind of confrontation.

[JerryLove]

Anarcho,
Please allow me to say that I for one find your point of view quite valid and supportable (regarding not wanting to carry)

[Black Jack]

Unless you are very comfortable in the use of a weapon, any weapon, than I do not believe you should be carrying that weapon as a second tier defense.

I carry a folder most of the time and I am comfortable with that choice, I see the large practical advantages in having a knife with me incase of a violent attack or a emergency situation.

A blade is a tool, nothing more and nothing less, you have to understand the purpose of the tool to understand what you can do with it and come to understand and agree with those purposes.

In my mind their is "almost" no such animal as a squared off knifefight, most knifefights are failed murder attempts, a blade works better when used in conjuction with the element of surprise.

You need to be alert and on your toes to draw your blade at the right time, you have to understand mobility, vital zones and angles of attack.

In essence you need to be trained to use a knife in the content that it is its own skill and needs separte training from standard hand to hand methods,the McDojo TKD instructor stating that all you have to do is practice your hand to hand tech's and you can put a weapon in your hand and your ready to go is very far from the truth.

I have never run across a spear hand yet that could pierce like a knife or a hammerblow that could sever your spine.

Regards

[joedoe]

I agree with pretty much all of that. If you draw your knife, you'd better be ready to use it otherwise you are dead.

My personal choice (apart from the fact that carrying a knife in public is illegal in Sydney) is to not carry a knife.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[Lucky Red]

if you have a knife people kick youre ass
ten times harder so if u carry then be prepared to use it

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[rp]

I would like yo know where you guys carry your knife. Where do you put it.

It sometimes helps to think like a bad guy. If I was going to attack you I would not let you pull the knife. :confused:

[Black Jack]

Since I carry a folder most of the time I have a good deal of space to clip-it to that would be in the concealed range.

A person could not take my knife as they can not seen it out in the open, you would need to have some time to examine me or pat me down to come across its small frame.

Again IMO the knife is better when used with the element of surprise, so in that context you would already have it out and out of his view when the fight started or be able to draw it from a concealed angle as if you were in a grappling situation and had a free hand.

A blade is a great advantage in a violent situation but you must be prepared to use it and have some skill at what you want to do with it.

My girlfriend carries a small Delica Clip-It folder on her person and I have taken her through some training in basic grappling situation's in her car and on the ground and even standing as well as the fact that she has had some outside martial arts training.

Her intention is not to knifefight and do a funky commando silent kill tech but to simply provide herself a escape from the situation by using pain tactics and surprise.

A folder is a good choice for her because folders can be fliped open one handed within the blink of a eye.

If someone is going to hurt you they are going to hurt you the same if you carried a knife or not.

Regards

[JerryLove]

Clipped in pocket or waistband.

[Lucky Red]

places a knife can be concealed
this is best if you have some colthes on more than t-shirt and shorts just waist level (just above the butt) on youre back then when youre attacked u can easely grab it and make a large nice circle just cutting deep into the face or whatever

or u could hide it near ure neck so when you are confronted (not Attacked but hostile situation) u scratch ure neck and take youre knife out and Action

i dont kidding about the not carriying knife stuff
i have spoken to criminals saying that if you carry a knife and pull that on someone (who is a Criminal)they and their friends will go alot harder on you then if you would just give ure money and about blind violence or Random violence not sure what it is called in english u dont have time to do **** u dont know that it is happening
before u wake up in the hospital that is my experinece of course there is times that a knife
could come in handy

how many of you really know criminals i dont know any that i view as CRiminals but i know that they know people and i have spoken to a few and they all say the same u will be litterly beaten beyond
recognision if u begin to wave around with a

little knife in there faces of course you may say that this is just bragging BUT just think about it ,it is kind of logical that they would go harder on you if you attack with a knife

but if you think carriyng a knife will make u safer be my guest maybe it does i dont know
but if i where to carry a knife i would when attacked Thrust the knife into the gut of the attacker until it stoped turn the blade and then pull it out and run like **** and call an anonymous call to the ambulance

this got alittle long i will try to shorten my posts but when i feel i have to contribute to a discussion it usually gets alittle longer than nessvery

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[JerryLove]

Interesting assumption made about the criminal. "worse than if you just hand over the money". What if this criminal is not a robber but a rapist, or a murder?

And I am sure they will be pretty brutal. If they stay and if they win. I don't know about the former, but I really doubt the latter.

There is an old joke that is very true.
Q: "What do you call the guy that dies in the hospital the day after a knife fight?"
A: "The winner"

[Lucky Red]

of course it would be good to have a knife
if you where confronted by a rapistrobberwhatever BUT a criminal will take alot harder on you if you have a knife

So.....if you have a knife you better be prepared
to use and i mean STAB STAB STAB STAB beacuse if you are not 100% on this one.......

there is only one problem most people dont have it in them to to stab someone deep in the gut
i am not really against carriyng a knife but people should really know what you getting into


you have to explain that joke to me :confused:

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[JerryLove]

It is an assumption because the sadistick serial killer will not go harder on you for having a weapon. He is already going as hard on you as he can dream up.

Stabbing is a mediocre use of a knife, espically in the gut (rarely useful short term). My targets are most often large vessels and supporting ligaments (writs, inside elbow, neck, clavical, groin, anus, underarm, inside thigh, achellies tendon (if that actually came up)) and using the knife to wittle away at my opponent (blocking everything with the blade). Plus some good nuicence wounds (flick the point across the eye, the fron the the trhoat, the forehead, backs of the hands). If he really offers up a stab between the middle ribs or a chance to open up his diaphram, so be it. But I doubt they will be that careless.

If you don't understand the joke, you have not done any serious play with knives. You learn very quickly that knife-on-kinfe is *very* often a mutual kill. (Hence the winner is the guy that dies two days later, the looser died at the scene.)

[JerryLove]

There is an assumption that keeps occuring that the criminal will contine to attempt the crime when presented resistance. I do not believe this is statistically true.

Ask yourself this. Why don't unifomred police get mugged? Because they are armed, trained, and will resist. Why does the little old lady get robbed of her social security check more often then the pimp, drug dealer, or bagman? Because of the resistance.

Why do you think when you become aggressive, violent, and armed, the criminal is going to risk his life by pressing the attack? He might. And he might win. And he might be more engraged. But I think that you are far safer to resist with every tool available than to let him drag you off and find out what he was after later.

[Lucky Red]

about my english and how i use it i think it is positive that people correct me but u should see that my english is quite simple i dont know that many words and my spelling is worse but thank u

u have right about me not being in many knife fights but as a hyperactive i have had ALot! of accidents when i grew up so i know how cuts an stuff effects u

the romans always stabbed (i know they had swords but they werent so long)beacuse if you slash a opponent he can still come at u if u stab there is a much bigger chance that he would stop also the stomach is very big soft place with alot of organs also in fencing i belive the fatal move is
a thrust this might be beacuse...well we all now those swords look like (i cannot reamember what they are called)but this frequent use of stabbing
thruout the history plus asking a doctor i made an assumption about well that the stomach is a great place to stab (also i have other places where i have gotten information from but if i am going wite all night )

u prove my point when u ask me who would be most
robbed an old women or a pimp u say resistance i agree with that but as if u dont go in the fight
with no regrets of what might happen u will WIN as in youre joke

most people who are confronted with knife become stunned beacuse they are not used to be treated this way i know this guy who was ambushed this guy held a knife to his throat he made him empty his account at a mini-bank he didnt think of even saying no once a knife has a very big emotinel impact on people it is very covincing . if he had a knife what should he have done attacked him when the robber was running away his head almost exploded with adrenalin he was so frightend he almost **** his pants down to his ancles

of course if u are used to knifes and are emotinol
prepared for a knife fight but most people arnt that even with allot of training

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[Lucky Red]

what i mean about a criminal beating u more if u have a weapon is instead of just giving him the money u had to pull a knife on him so he wants something more in away

of course it is better to fight back i agree with u but people should know what they are getting into when using a weapon

in away i think that the best way is to make alot of resistance but if the robber only wants my money well he can get them

of course if he wants something else it would be
nice to have a knife or prefereble a gun but i think the best oppinion is prevention by that i mean dont be in places u know are bad if this is not a option well then i whole heartly agree with u arm ureself to the teeth but know what u are going too .i might have to be carrying a knife soon so okay i guess u have convinced me but what i said is still true

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[JerryLove]

I didn't realize that the problem with the joke was one of language. I was not attempting to correct your English. It's fine.

A sword is not a knife. In fact two swords are not the same. Using a claymore for stabbing is silly, it's way too slow. Using a roman shortsword for hacking can be done, but it is hardly the best tool for the job. Remember the Roman army's fighting method included turtleing behind a wall of door-shields. Swinging a large blade with men packed so close together and with the large shields was very dangerous. So the Romans employed a short sword they could thrust out and manuver around when shoulder-to-shoulder with other legionares.

The torso stab is a good attack for a weapon that can also prevent the opponent from closing on you (like a spear) or when you have (say) a shield to do that. With the knife, the torso stab leaves you open for retaliation. In the chest, you risk the ribs successfully protecting the underlying organs (a good stab anyway). Getting a mojor vessel in the gut is pretty difficult. The spleen is a good hit, but slow to take out the opponent. The intestines (most of the mass of the gut) are all but useless. Your opponent may die next week of an infection from a perforated bowel, but you have done little to end the fight.

[Lucky Red]

u say that stabbing in the Stomach wont help
it works belive me it stops the bugger that attacks u not in a week but very quickly because
u make a lot of tissue damage and go into shock
just ask any doctoer he will explain it much better than i will ever do


then if there is a great disadvantage with stabbing someone in the stomach there should be an equally big risk in punching it i have punched
alot of people in the stomach it is my prime target because it is big soft an unsuspecting blow to it leaves on the floor

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[JerryLove]

I did not say it never helped, don't misquote me.

Stomach wounds are rarely fatal if treated. They are extremely unlikely to disable an attacker quickly.

The effect of a punch to the gut is quite irrellevent to the effect of a knife to the gut. A puch causes a muscle spasam and "knocks the wind out". But that is almost always on an unconditioned and unprepared opponent (when was the last time you saw a boxer go down in the first to a gut punch?)

[Lucky Red]

i have only seen 5-6 Boxing matches i think it was
illegal to show boxing matches on the tv and u are right i have never seen someone been knocked down that way (in boxing)

i think i have used up all my sane arguments that
the stomach is a great place to stab people
but i KNOW that if someone stabs u in the stomach
u are stoped i dont mean just alittle in i mean all the way (long blade) not alittle folder

but i think that this (atleast for my part) discussion is drained for what it could be not to
be negative but i cannot add more i am out of arguments

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[Sihing73]

Hello All,

I noticed a couple of things which I wanted to interject some views on:

First the idea of a weapon being taken and then used on the person carrying it. I don't think the example of security forces is a good one. It is a statistical fact that most Police Officers who are sot are shot with their own weapons. This is one reason that most departments use vests which will stop the caliber and type of bullet they use. Don't believe me? Check the Uniform Crime Report which comes out every year.

The idea of resisitence leading to further and more brutal attacks is all dependent on the situation. Most criminals attack those they feel are weaker then themselves. They want as little resistance as possible. This is why the little old lady is more likley to be mugged then the uniformed cop. It is more about the targets accesibility and ease of defeat then who they are. There are plenty of instances when police were attacked, I had to pull some off of fellow officers when I was a cop. A person who projects themselves as confident and unafraid is less likley to be attacked then one who appears unsure and afriad.

As to stomach wounds be effective or ineffective. I think one point to consider here is the mind set and will of the attacker. There are many cases where a person has taken extreme damage and ocntinued on. It is not just where the person is injured but how they react to the injury that needs to be considered. Over all, I believe that thrusting attacks are more deadly then slashing ones. A deep puncture can result in shock and internal bleeding much harder to deal with unless taken to a hospital. Again, feel free to check with hospital emergency rooms to determine which injuries, thrusts or slashes, are the more likley cause of death or serious injury.

I am not siding with anyone here. The decision to carry a weapon will require the mindset to use it if need be. Without the proper mindset you are better off not carrying no matter your level of skill.

Peace,

Dave

[Lucky Red]

i agree with u sihing73 i think it is nice that u
didnt just stated things but explained them more

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[JerryLove]

In a way you are right, police forces are more prone to loosing their weapon to an opponent as they are required to do an apprehension where a civillian can just fire on approach. Loosing your weapon to your opponent in the millitary is much less likely. Obviously despite this, there isn't a juristiction of security forces I know of, allowed to carry a sidearm, who chooses not to. Their unilateral decision seems to be that posession of a sidearm improves their chances of success. Further, I am not aware of any security force that does not carry a blunt weapon as well. Again, the unanimous decision seems to be that posession of this weapon will aid, rather than hinder, conflicts.

Mindset and will are always important. And I really must insist you take a look at the difference between "ineffective" and "less effective". It is very easy to stab the gut and get a non-target (say the intestines). In the time it takes to do one good gut stab, I can sever three major arteries slicing (while keeping a better tactical position against my opponent
s weapon).

Take a simple scinerio. Opponent tries to stab at your gut, you guntang the wrist of the knife hand with your knife (tendon sever, maybe wrist artery) and slide the knife up (hopefully under the skin) to where is stops (elbow joint) and jerk it back (same artiery). Slap their shoulder to aid the pull and position outside and behind). Jab in and out of their armpit placing pressure toward the torso, then the side of the neck (second major artery). Swing your arm down and cut at the inside of the thigh at the groin (another major artery).

Ability to be patched at the hospital is irrellevant. Firstly because killing is a side-effect, not a goal of self defense. Secondly because you just got 5 major severs of 3 large arteries/veins, they will not live to get to a hospital.

And emergency room totals tell you what attacks are popular and most likely to not kill before the paramedics arrive. I am looking for ending the fight in my favor as fast as possible. The short, rapid attacks offered by slashing give me some change of not being on the receiving end of his weapon.

And again yes, I agree, if you do not have the will and skill to use a weapon, carrying one can only be a liability.

[Weapon-Maker]

In the 1940's,the Ringling Bros. Circus was in Hartford,CT,the big top or main 'tent' caught on fire,killing many people.There was a man or boy in the audience who saved hundreds of lives with his knife that he always carried.(he cut openings in the sides of the tent so people could get out of the blaze).This is a prime example of the 'good' that a knife can do.Knives aren't just for killing,they are useful 'tools'.
I carry a knife everyday,it's carried in a sheath which is attached to my belt.In Florida,this is legal.My personal rule I use regarding using a weapon on somebody is :if they pull a weapon on me first,then I will use my knife (or bearings) as a weapon against them.Seems like half the male population in Florida carry knives on their belts.
I've seen a lot of fights where the guys had knives on their belts but never used them,because they didn't want to kill each other,just kick each other's ass;in other words,most people don't want to be arrested for murder,so they don't 'cross the line' by pulling a weapon.Now,if I were to carry one of my combat daggers on my belt in public,I would surely be arrested,because this kind of knife has only one purpose--to kill--period.Unlike a smaller folder or fixed-blade that has many uses.If you're going to carry a knife,make sure it is of legal blade-length and don't use it on anybody unless your life is at stake,otherwise the law will burn ya good.

[peehoo]

Use the weapon your prepared to do the time in prison for. if you choose to carry a knife then youve got to be prepared to take the rap
people who wave knives about generaly dont use them most people who get stabbed never see the knife after all if they can see it they ll avoid it, or worse take it off you and use it back.
Overall its sad to think that people would even consider a weapon that is going to have a high chance of removing alife. disable an attacker yes ,kill someone (most knife hits to the torso upper arm and leg prove fatal)not really worth it
if you survive the law you still have to live with it

do without doing

[JerryLove]

"Use the weapon your prepared to do the time in prison for."

There is no prison time for justifiable homicide. Choose the weapon that is convienent and effective.

"if you choose to carry a knife then youve got to be prepared to take the rap people who wave knives about generaly dont use them"

Most people who carry knives do so as utilitiy devices and use them regularly. Please be more specific and cite your source.

"most people who get stabbed never see the knife after all if they can see it they ll avoid it, or worse take it off you and use it back."

Again, cite. Also, that's like saying if a boxer sees another boxer's hands, he'll just avoid it. If one could "just avoid" a weapon as you suggest, they would be useless.

And old indo way for fighting with two knives is to use a shiny one and a black one. The shiny one makes your opponent nervous and focus on it, the black one does most of the damage.

"Overall its sad to think that people would even consider a weapon that is going to have a high chance of removing alife. disable an attacker yes ,kill someone"

You have an odd understanding of the law. There is no situation under which you are legally entitled to maliciously wound someone. You are allowed to restrain (with resultant incidental injury) someone from illegal behavior, and you are allowd to kill in defense of life or safety. There is no legal "disable" unless it is without injury.

"(most knife hits to the torso upper arm and leg prove fatal)"

Again, please cite. I find your statement highly suspect. The event of a stabbing is typically an attack by an unskilled aggressor (skilled people and unskilled defenders usually slash). If the stab is "stab and run" I find the chance of survival extremely high. If they stab 50 times.... Well, there have been some survivors of that too, but not as many.

"not really worth it if you survive the law you still have to live with it"

Much better you died for being unarmed than live with killing someone intent on killing you? Odd morality, I'd wager you kill other animals, but you place so high a sanctity on human life that you would sacrifice your own, and allow the death of others, to prevent having to carry the emotional weight of stopping it yourself? If you want to die, that's your decision, but you are so inconsiderate as to decide to leave a killer wandering the streets to kill others to save your consience?

[peehoo]

J LOVE "justifiable Homicide"
i m from the uk we do not have justifiable homicide. If you pull a knife in a fight here you are automatically assumed the agressor, carrying a knife could also be termed as premeditation, so any killing would be classified as Murder
unless you could a defence ,(under point b in section 139 Crimal Justice Act 1988 <see below>),
that the knife was a utility knife (you have to prove its used as such regularly), even then its going to be manslaughter charge and (i think) carrys a min 6 year penalty even wounding would get you abh and a couple of months

Even carrying a knife here is a very serious offense SECTION 139 Criminal Justice Act
1988 key points (simplified to save space)
a) It is a offence to have an article with a blade , Or which is sharply pointed (eg steel long handled hairbrush)in a public place.
b)It may be a defence(in a court of law) if it is carried for work religious reasons or as part of a national costume
c)A folding pocket knife with a cuting edge of less than 3 inches is okay
d) locked, spring loaded or retractable blades do not come under the cat of pocket knife.

stab n runs do result in deaths
if a knife pentrates the torso by 2" then there is a bloody good chance it will hit something the organs arnt packed nicley like in a text book they re are crammed in, i studied anatomy at coverntry university so i know that the top 3rd of the leg is crammed with blood carrying vessels.the upper arm where it joins the chest is similar. Incidently a Warwick student in my first year (warwick n coventry very close) was stabbed in the inner thigh with a butter knife during an argument in a kitchen she died before the ambulance arrived.
As for my comment about knife wavers i cite a case very big in this country Martin Lawrence a young man who collapsed and ( from a single knife wound note)died. His friend who was with him at the time said to the police that the attacker threw a swinging punch to Martins chest he only realised martin had been stabbed when he fell after running several yards up the street.
if you have intention of using a knife you ll only show the thing when its stuck in who ever.
The big shiny knife small black knife is an rare example but it also backs up my point. The big knife is for show and the one that does the damage is concealed / used stealthly
You ve got me on the disabling opponents cause i used the word out of context by disable i mean stop their ability to fight ie KO, agood solid lock etc not put them in a wheel chair.

You last point about my regard for human life is sadening.At what point do we assume the person facing us is trying to kill us and therefore we must go as far as stabbing them and removing their life, i could justify it in a war but not in street fighting. If i ever get to the point of comparing the killing of a human being in a fight to killing a animal for food then i do need locking away, the two are not comparable, how can you say my morals are wrong to kill an animal for food but not be prepared to stab someone in a fight.( i wouldn t kill an animal for sport by the way).

Your very last point
if some one killed me in the street because i didnt kill them and ileft a murderer running around how would my concions be...
well it wouldnt
Please don,t turn this into a endless slagging match, I think the thread is building nice it just seems some people like to try to shoot others down. your obviously an intelligent chap and your posts are well scripted why not expand on points raised what about us law relating to knives compared with uk?

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[JerryLove]

"i m from the uk we do not have justifiable homicide."

Though I recognize UK law is rather different on the subject than most US states, I would ask why SWAT units (don't know what they are called in the UK, but the armed portion of your police depts) carry firearms. If what you are saying is true, using one would be an automatic jail sentance as there is *no* legitimate reason for shooting someone.

Perhaps what you mean is that the laws around it are different.

"unless you could a defence ,(under point b in section 139 Crimal Justice Act 1988 ),
that the knife was a utility knife (you have to prove its used as such regularly), even then its going to be manslaughter charge and (i think) carrys a min 6 year penalty even wounding would get you abh and a couple of months"

Actually I just saw someone posting on rec.martial-arts a few days ago about a person who did cary a knife as part of his job function, got persued by multiple assailents in london, was cornered, and did use his knife in defense. And was not imprisionsd.

"a) It is a offence to have an article with a blade , Or which is sharply pointed (eg steel long handled hairbrush)in a public place."

Not that the US doesn't have equally stupid laws, but this must make cutting your steak in a resteraunt rather difficult.

"if a knife pentrates the torso by 2" then there is a bloody good chance it will hit something the organs arnt packed nicley like in a text book they re are crammed in, i studied anatomy at coverntry university so i know that the top 3rd of the leg is crammed with blood carrying vessels.the upper arm where it joins the chest is similar. Incidently a Warwick student in my first year (warwick n coventry very close) was stabbed in the inner thigh with a butter knife during an argument in a kitchen she died before the ambulance arrived."

Your examples are not torso stabs. The major vessels in the arms and legs (there are two in each) are very specific targets that may get hit by accident, but would not be a high percentage instance without deliberation. The one in the arm runs up the outside of the ribcage, through the underarm, and along the inside of the arm. It's severed on wrist-slash homicided and suicides, but I prefer to access it in the armpit because hypovolumic shock sets in more quickly and it's less likely for muscular contraction to slow bleeding. The inside of the thigh (near the groin tendons) is sometimes hit by accident as the target is sensitive and so people go for the "that hurts" hit, or the groin and miss.

"As for my comment about knife wavers i cite a case very big in this country Martin Lawrence a young man who collapsed and ( from a single knife wound note)died."

I did not say it never happened. Please go back and reread. Go back ****her and you'll find I discuss reasons why the torso is not typically a good target in a fight.

"At what point do we assume the person facing us is trying to kill us and therefore we must go as far as stabbing them and removing their life"

That's up to you. For me it's the point at which he has forced the confrontation despite my best efforts.

"i could justify it in a war but not in street fighting."

I fail to see the difference, except that soldiers would routinely and wrongly justify colateral damage (the killing of innocent bystanders) in an attempt to achieve an objective. A street fight would justify the killing of an attacker in self defense.

"your obviously an intelligent chap and your posts are well scripted why not expand on points raised what about us law relating to knives compared with uk?"

An excellent idea. Unfortunately, I have limited famaliarity ith your lwas, and the laws here vary widely.

[peehoo]

I think the difference in UK/US law has resulted into the vary different attitudes regarding the carrying of weapons between us JL.The criminal justice act of 1988 sec 193(i did say i simplified it for space reasons) isnt a stupid law however its sometimes interprated in stupid fashion by the police and courts. 1988/193 has removed a hell of a lot weapons from the street and on its introduction a 3 month knife/weapon hand in took place, which took a lot of very dangerous weapons out of circulation/ prevented them getting in the wrong hands.
A steak knife (this is making my hungry) comes under heading of tool/utility when your sat eating, but stand up and point it at someone and it becomes a crime to have it in your hand.
I ve spoken to my brother whos a police officer (cambridshire const).At its most basic the police in the uk want weapons off the street so will seek prosecution where ever possible(hence you get stupid interp' of the law). Where a defendant uses a weapon and claims self defence, they look at the type of weapon and situation, any sort of knife that is designed for combat is amajor no,no. Even carrying as a tool/utility as a defence(in court) can be shot to pieces, if its a tool for say fitting carpets for example then it should be in a tool box when you not actually fitting carpets has been used by a prosecution
The law regarding officers opening fire (our swat teams are refered to as SO units and given a number ie SO19 by the by)is very complicated and out of my understanding of the law, but i understand as much as firearms deployment is extremly controlled, The actual discharge of a firearm results in lenghty reports and investigations, let alone the shooting dead of an individual, although armed patrols have taken place in manchester (i can t confirm this, but im sure i read it somewhere), I m sure as gun activity increases in the uk the law will change. Even cs gas is treated by (many not all) officers as a last line due to the treatment they get for discharging it,(this is sad considering it was introduced due to knife attacks on officers increasing)

My examples of upper arm/leg was given along with the statement about the torso not as examples of torso hits what im try to get across is that all knife hits in those areas torso upperarm/leg carry a chance of fatality.

It may come across that i am anti weapon, I m not.I find the weapons aspect of martial arts an important one . i just think that if you choose to carry you must think of the results and of the law you are under, In respect of my regard of human life and of the law i choose not to carry, If ever i have to take a life to save my own then i ll have to deal with the situation and conc' as it underfolds, I hope its not something any of us have to experience.
Does state law vary that much with regard for weapons?
Do any states allow you the right to arm yourself?
My US law isnt too hot
Anyone on the forum from a country where weapon law is relaxed, what do you have to say?

do without doing

[SLC]

"Does state law vary that much with regard for weapons?"

Yes. The individual states establish their own laws and they can vary in the extreme. For example, in Georgia where I live, it is perfectly legal for me to carry a concealed firearm (or knife) on my person (and to use it to protect myself but not my property). In Washington DC, just the possession of a handgun is a crime and people have been prosecuted for even heroic acts with illegal weapons.


"Do any states allow you the right to arm yourself?"

Yes, as stated above, they do. I believe 33 of them allow concealed carry now (latest issue of American Rifleman).

[peehoo]

I had a feeling that some states allowed weapons for defence but I had no idea it was as high as 33

I think this goes a long way to explain why me and JL have such different atitudes toward weapons on the street.
It sounds more likley to encounter a weapon in the US than in the UK, (here most weapons tend to be on the spot improvisation)

I was under the impresion the US government were going to take a harder line on weapon laws in view of high profile shootings in recent times.

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[JerryLove]

Unfortuantely, the more the government tries to protect people from each other, the more the people need protection from the government.

One interesting thing about illegal shootings, They are not particularly tied to the legalities of guns inthe area. There are cities in this country where gun ownership is a requirement of all adults without felony convictions. The crime rates in those cities are extremely low.

To again point on the state-to-state differences. In California (known for it's gun violence), it is illegal to carry anything with the purpose of using it as a weapon (old addage, if you carry a baseball bat, you'd better cary a glove and some balls). Here in Florida, it's legal to carry a firearm most places (many cities have ordinances), and with a Concealed Carry Permit (not difficult to get, I have one) you can carry said fireamr concealed (except for some governmental buildings, schools, etc.)

[LiquidJaguar]

Knifes are good but not great. I really dont care about the bad-guy getting cut up. The thing I would worry about is the Law andthe guy getting cut. A knife is just like a gun to cops...If you carry be careful becuase people may take it a try to use it against you. The law may be a little more discering if the situation is appropriate. If youy use a knife dont bring it our right away, only use it if your is a desprate situation (i.e choking you or non-stop beating). Me i would suggest a small set of nunchaku. The guy would be beaten up and cops would just luagh.

[JerryLove]

Horrible legal advice. Nunchaku are far more illegal than knives (e.g. illegal more locations and harder to justify)

[peehoo]

The law on chain weapons in uk is very heavy handed, they are viewed as a lot worse than knives. Nunchaku are always classed as a chain weapon even though strictly its not true the offensive weapons order(1988n CJA) actually descibes a chain with weighted ends to increase momentum with a view to use that momentum to cause injury(simplified) It actually descibes a manrikki kusari, its ignorance to martal arts terminoligy that causes the problem in a lot of cases that go to court.kungfu teaches control, i think the law see it as training people to go out and kick off.

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[oldwolf]

Uness of course you can prove you are a fully paid up member of the rice flailers union. :D :D

"And the crowd called out for more"