Hard training in taijiquan

[IronFist]

Do any of you taiji people do any hard training? I mean things like punching bags, posts, dummies, anything that involves hitting something hard, similiar to how boxers or other styles train? Or do you guys do the soft form and push hands all day?

IronFist

[taijiquan_student]

Troll!!!:D

[Laughing Cow]

Yeah, we hit trolls and people that ask stupid questions.

:D

[taijiquan_student]

Indeed. Does smashing people's faces in and breaking their knees with thunderous kicks count as "hitting something hard"?:cool:

[IronFist]

Troll? wtf? Sorry for asking a freaking question.

[Watahhh]

Our Sifu gets us to do a lot of 'hard training'. A typical night includes 10 minutes warmup, 30 minutes strengthening (pushups, crunches, squats...) and then about an hour of actual training. Which involves mostly non-contact sparring followed by kick rounds and punch rounds. For kick rounds, a partner holds a kick shield in different positions and you deliver full strength kicks for 2 minutes. We usually do 2 to 3 rounds with 30 second breaks in between. For punch rounds, a partner holds a mitt on his hand and we punch at full intensity for 2 minutes. We do this in either a set of 5 2-minute rounds with 30 second breaks, or 3 3-minute interval rounds in which our Sifu repeatedly calls out one of 3 things:
"Hard" hard accurate punching
"Fast" develop speed by punching fast
"Pushups" get on the floor and start doing pushups

We usually finish off with forms done hard and fast, a bit of stretching and meditation.

[Laughing Cow]

Methinks we annoyed IF a bit. ;)

We do way more than just forms and push-hands.

Push-hands is also not gentle swaying of the limbs with no force, this type of training leads into San Shou. OMG :eek:

Most of the harder training comes in at a later stage when we start hitting (not literally) the Tai chi sphere and similar exercises.

Try doing 30 or so minutes of silk reeling, shaking the pole, etc and your arms will be ready to drop-off literally.

There are schools that do hit the bag and similar in their training.
But who do want to fight a lifeless bag or a human being.

If you want to be pushed, punched, thrown and kicked around than come and see us.

Where I train no mats, no gear when you get thrown it is "hello mr. wooden floor"

[Watahhh]

A requirement to grade to red shash is to do 7 2-minute rounds on a 6 foot bag at our school. Fitness and endurance are still important in MA.

[Laughing Cow]

Watahhh.

During those punch and kick rounds do you maintain the principles & techs of your style, or you simply going at it any old way??

[Watahhh]

We maintain proper form, foot work and technique. We try to incorporate different moves (palm heels, willow leafs, hamer fists...). Sometimes I try to focus and deliver chi strikes but I usually only maintain that level for 5 seconds or so. Intensity and power play a major role though.

[Laughing Cow]

Watahhh.

Bit confused.

What are chi-strikes??
Never heard of them in IMA training.

I know Fa-Jing moves.

Also bit confused your profile states Yang Tai Chi, Hsing Yi and Ba Gua with 1 yr training.

Do they teach all styles at the same time or do you learn one first and than another one.

Also what form of Yang TJQ is it, a couple of things you mentioned raised a few question marks for me.

You also doing forms of Tui shou and Rou Shou I would expect.

Just curious, not intended to question your or your schools abilities.

[Watahhh]

I haven't actully been tought 'Chi strikes' yet. I just use that term to refer to a strike where you focus all your energy and use perfect technique (body movement) to deliver a maximum power hit.

I have heard of Fa-Jing moves but those are only tought later on. I've only been training for one year.

We study 3 arts, all at the same time. We train 3 times a week and most of the time we do 1 art per session. Sometimes we have sessions were we combine the 3. Change from one to the other depending on the situation and on your oponent.

As for the arts, they are Original Yang Tai Chi Chuan, Shansi Hsing-i and Dragon Pa Qua.

I don't think I've heard the terms Tui Shou or Rou Shou mentioned yet, but we have 8 normal forms (katas) which everyone does and 2 sister forms (1 attacks the other defends) which are only tought after getting red sash. There are other forms which I haven't learnt yet though. Plus Taoist Meditation, 24 movement and 108 movement Tai Chi Meditation and some qigong exercises.

[Laughing Cow]

Tui Shou (Push hands) is a 2-person sensitivity drill that is a needed pre-cursor to San Shou(Sparring hands) in Tai Chi. Among a few other things.

Rou Shou is roughly the BaGua equivalent.

Normally in Ba Gua you learn to "walk the circle first", and you keep doing that for some time.

24 movement Tai Chi Form is not traditional but a new PRC created standard form, but often taught as an introductionary form.

It is unusual that the 3 arts are taught at the same time.

My current Chen TJQ form alone took 13 months before I was shown the last move and now I will need to spend a few years perfecting it. ;)

Like I said, just a bit confused as your training seems to vary from the traditional methods I know.

Alos a bit confused with some of the terminology you use (108 movement Tai Chi mediation, calling forms Kata, etc)

Do you have a URL for your school?

Cheers.

[Brad]

Speaking of push hands, anyone ever get these huge ugly bruises on the insides of your arms afterwards? They were there for a loooooong time too.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Brad
Speaking of push hands, anyone ever get these huge ugly bruises on the insides of your arms afterwards? They were there for a loooooong time too.

We had some nasty bruises from one form of "push-hands" where we bang the forearms together.
:D

Twist the arm a bit and it hurts and bruises.

[Watahhh]

Tui Shou and Rou Shou don't sound like anything we've done so far. We have one-steps, which are a 2 person exercise. One throws a punch or kick and the other counters with a 4 or 5 move combo. From what I remember, these one-steps and our katas were developed by 3 masters from the 3 arts working together. I think this was less than a 100 years ago if I'm not mistaken.

"Walk the circle first" I've definitely heard of as we do it pretty much all the time when doing Pa Qua although never as a solo exercise. Usually our partner attacks and we 'walk the circle' to defend and counter by taking out the legs, moving around to exploit week angles and so on. We also do it as a multiple opponent drill, where 2 people charge at you and you have to take them both out. I've also heard of an 8 on 1 variation but haven't experienced yet.

Our training is street fighting oriented and moves at a somewhat fast pace initially. Brown belt is aquired within about a year and black in 2 years. Red in about 6 or 7 and gold in around 20 or so.

Most of the advanced and more traditional teachings are tought in the higher grades.

Our school is pretty big with around 500 students, 20 to 30 red shashes and 7 senior students will be grading for their gold sash in a few months. There is no URL though. We don't advertise much. It's mostly word of mouth.

[taijiquan_student]

Sorry for messing with you IronFist. I just thought that this kind of thing had been discussed before here, so I wasn't sure if your post was serious.
To answer your question: sure! We have a punching bag (one of those wavemaster things) and a pressing board, which is a wonderful contraption designed to practiced the taiji move "press". We do sanshou (not the sport that's called sanshou, but freehands/freefighting), we practice with ourselves as dummies, for ex. sometimes we'll have one person stand still with their hands up and the other person will move around and hit them in the striking points (obviously not fullpower). This helps ingrain where the vital points are (not dim mak, just sensitive spots) and it helps the other guy get used to being hit a little bit before going into sparring. We do a bunch of stuff that I guess you could call "hard training", though I'm not really sure what that means. But yeah.

[taijiquan_student]

Some of the stuff you said about your school is a little sketchy, like the gold sash after 20 years and whatnot. But hey, if you like it and you're getting what you want out of it, then hey, that's great. Just keep an eye out I guess.

[Watahhh]

What's wrong with a gold sash in 20 years?

[Laughing Cow]

Watahh.

Sashes are a fairly new addition to Chinese Arts.

Most of the system don't have a ranking structure and fixed tests.
Granted some styles/schools have adopted them.

Like Taijiquan_student said some of the things you mentioned are a bit sketchy, but if you enjoy your school and get out of it what you want than everything is ok.

[Watahhh]

That would make sense. As I mentioned, the combination of these 3 arts is a fairly new system. The gold sash gradings take place in Malaysia I think (or maybe Taiwan or Thailand, I forget). But they have to be before a Grand Master of the art.

Anyway, as you said, I'm enjoying it and getting what I want from it so that's all that matters.

[IronFist]

taijiquan_student, what kind of stuff do you do with the heavy bag?

[Ka]

Wataah
I live in Sydney,are you able to PM me or post the name, location of your school.I would like to see you guys.
Thanks

[Watahhh]

1-5/7 Deadman Rd
Moorebank NSW, 2170
Kufu-do Kung-fu Society

So it's basically in Liverpool. It's the big factory looking place on your right. Lots of cars, you can't miss it. The beginners class (white-purple) is from 6:30pm to 8pm and the advanced class(brown-gold) is from 8pm to around 10pm. They are one every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

[jon]

Watahhh

Im a Sydney based internal practioner as well :D
I might try and get down and check you guys out if i get a chance.

Is there any chance you could drop the name of the master of your school or who your organisation is headed by over here? Just curious is all :)

[Watahhh]

Gary Martin started the school almost 25 years ago and he is still our Sifu. Will be getting a Grand Master title in a few years.

[Ka]

Thanks Bloke,
Heard lots of good things about Gary Martin.
On my way.

And Well Done Mundine, Great Fight:D

[Liokault]

During those punch and kick rounds do you maintain the principles & techs of your style, or you simply going at it any old way??

If its still posable for you to hit a bag in a non tai chi way then you are doing somthing wrong. The point of 70 percent of the content of tai chi is aimed at making you "become" tai chi......not hitting a bag in a correct manner should just not be an option.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Liokault
If its still posable for you to hit a bag in a non tai chi way then you are doing somthing wrong. The point of 70 percent of the content of tai chi is aimed at making you "become" tai chi......not hitting a bag in a correct manner should just not be an option.

No disagreement there.

How long would you reckon this should take to happen for a person dedicated to TJQ alone.

Cheers.

[bungda07]

Taijiquan Student, can you explain a bit more about the Pressing Board you mentioned in your post. Are they hard to design?

V/r

Steve M.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

An effective heavy bag drill is to take a ward-off stance and press the bag ahead of you keeping it on the forearm, then using your legs and waist maintain the balance on your forearm while doing flat circles.. try to keep the bag half-way between vertical and horizontal.. This works for Press as well.. we also use a two-handed push and only using our legs and waist bounce the bag as far and high as we can, absorbing the returning energy to make the next push.. (being sure to switch stances for balance).. Then, we occasionally press our shoulders or torsos up against the bag (no arms or hands) and practice moving the bag as far as possible.. For effect, we hold large Iron-Palm canvas striking bags (12"x12", filled with iron pellets or steel shot) against or torsos as other students practice strikes (nice multi tasking training, here).. Anyway, just a few suggestions..

Be well..

[Liokault]

How long would you reckon this should take to happen for a person dedicated to TJQ alone.

It depends on what the individual has done before. If they come as a blank canvas then it does not take very long at all!!

If they come from a boxing back ground then it also does not take to long. (When my teacher trained with boxers they kept telling him to relax and try to flow more on the bag lol).

People who come from wing chun or karate take ages.