Situation with two attackers from behind

[SanSoo Student]

I had an interesting scenario in my Kung Fu Sansoo class today. It involved a no stance non-chalant pose as you are being confronted by two strangers from behind. There are four different situations in this scenario:

1) Both attackers have no weapons and attack you at once from behind.

2) First attacker has a knife and attackers first, second attacker has no weapon.

3) First attacker has no weapon and second attacker has a knife.

4) First and Second attacker both have knives and attack at once.

Situation 1 and 2 were pretty easy to handle. As I would just neutralize attacker 1 by spinning counter clockwise and step into him strike the solar plexus, four kunckle strike the throat, and rake the eyes: which would neutralize him; then throw him into person into attacker 2, to create a 1/2-1 second delay and open up a window to attack the throat and then the eyes. The throat proves to be one of the deadlier places to hit as you would still feel the disruption of airflow and pain even if u were uped on adrenaline.

Situation 3 and 4 become harder as I get stabbed everytime I'm trying to throw attacker 1 into attacker 2. It seems that the second person has more confidence to help out his friend since he has a knife. When I was an attacker I felt the same way, becuase I knew one stab in the lungs and my victim is gone. The attacker would always get me as I move to the side of attacker 1 to get ready to throw him towards the other person. I would also tend to focus more on attacker 1 becuase of the immediate knife threat and get overworked on the first person.

One person executed a roll and took the second attacker to the ground and started to pummel him there. But I asked myself,"What if it was concrete, or a rough road with rocks and small things to get into your eyes or scrap you up as you roll?"
Another person used attacker one as shield after he was neutralized, but this person was a good 220 lb. 6'3" guy tossing around a 150 lb. 6' skrawny guy which was easy for him to do. It wouldn't really work if I (165 lb, 5' 11") try to use a 180+ lb. guy as a shield; I couldn't move the person fast enough to block a knife strike.

What are some ideas you people would do in situations 1-4 (primarily 3+4)? Running is not an option because you have already been stopped to acknowledge the presence of the two men behind you.

[Mr Punch]

Frankly...

you're dead.

If someone is attacking you from behind with a knife, you're in deep ****.

Aggressive mindset is the most useful thing you'll practise (remember the samurai who would supposedly finish thier killing blow after decapitation...) and even then, in class mindset is fine, but until you've actually had the experience of seeing someone winging a knife towards you, you have no idea how you'll react.

In fact, if you get over it once without freezing, although there's a higher chance of you getting over it again it's not a certainty.

Technically the only thing I recommend in any attack from behind scenario is pull away and give yourself as much distance as you can to see what's behind you, before or as you turn.

Any of this turning into his range and instantly striking/covering kind of stuff is IMO going to get you gutted like a fish.

edit: the reason I say this is because nobody is going to give you that 'antenna' you are hoping for. Most schools I've been to say when they reach out for you, as soon as they make contact, you know where they are, and can feel for your action... it doesn't happen. No sensitivity drill is going to prepare you for the adrenaline, and the simple fact that the hand they are using to get you to turn is not the hand with the knife. Seeing how you are turning means it is gonna be a hell of lot quicker for him to gut you, than it is for you to effectively (blindly) gauge the response as you turn. Pull away. If they have a gun... tough anyway!

Of course, if you can see them out of the corner of your eye, or a reflection somewhere... it's a different ball-game.

[No_Know]

4. stay to the outside of one. This could get tiring moving around, because they can, and, might move too. Them being attackers does not necessarily make them strategy challenged because You study
.
-break the distance. Get it so that one is closer to you than the other. Address the closest. Sliding steps; back and arcing. Slowly backing to keep close enough to address the opponent yet take away from their advances. Steer away from the second person.

-disarm/throw-down/ tie-up from behind the first person. If tie-up use as shield. The others to weaken their mentality that they have you.


You get caught when you come around because you have the experience that you might get met, but you go there each time anyway. Stop going all the way around.

Change your focus. If you Focus on using the person as a shield (likely advised tactic) and you Trying to Force it; you can miss opportunities that come-up. You can Try the high percentage success things. But cut them if they get you into trouble and do something else. Not knowing what to do can be bad. But perhaps doing the thing you KNOW isn't going to work because you don't have anything else in particular in mind to do Might be worse.


A bigger person; cripple them. Try the leg joints, BUT Other than Focus on that. If they see you try twice they might think you'll try again or keep trying and be waiting for the technique you showed them. Either breakup the sincere attacks to the same area (if the first fails) (if they are not within the same half-second time-frame), or repeat fake attacks so they think they know how you'll attack and prepare to receive that. Then when they try the counter for that technique use the technique you had set-up to hit them with when they countered your fake repeated technique.

[SanSoo Student]

If you use side steps and don't know where they are behind you, won't you get gutted also?

And why would you try to throw-down or tie-up when you have cripple and stop the person more effectively with strikes to the throat and eyes?

I tried the shield tactic and it worked, but only on a person about my size. I don't think I could move anyone over 190 lbs.

[No_Know]

"If you use side steps and don't know where they are behind you, won't you get gutted also?"

That's you getting gutted in the first place. And if you dont face them as soon as you are aware of them before they get close enough to hurt you (Hands/knives -on), in the knife situations you could get gutted. Good thing moving without awareness was not a suggestion.

Sidesteps are only used after facing the closest opponent and positioning yourself relevant to addressing one and steering clear of the other until you deal with the one (or while going from one to the other). Or Steering clear of both (for a moment).

SanSoo Student's presentation read to me as if you noticed that they were behind you while they were far enough away that you turnd around to face them. I started where SanSoo Student started.

If you are referring to what I put. In what I put, hopefully there was that you were facing (addressing one of them and staying clear of the other. Since you would have to be aware of their locations (and if not seeing or aware of the second person, the given to me is that they are where I cannot see. Behind something or behind me (Checing out things behind which they could hide in wait while I position my opponent so that I would face what was where was my back. Since I turned to face them (unspoken as in SanSoo Student's mention) I would as a given notice both and keep them tracked in a local area map highlighting the opponents in a virtual dimension rendering of how there are and proximity reports being nearly constantly transmitted)


"And why would you try to throw-down or tie-up when you have cripple and stop the person more effectively with strikes to the throat and eyes?"

I have throw-down or tie-up when I have cripple because whyever. Cripple as I had mentioned (at leg joints) can be done from a distance. If they come in closer than your oout most attack range theoretically they are attacking or will attack. If I attack on my own schedule and they attack on theirs and our schedules clash I higher risk getting hit/cut.stabbed/slashed.

Since they are attacking almost for sure (put your mind on the Other opponent if the one you are facing is not attacking; you are being flanked or distracted and are about to be attacked fro an area that challenges your peripherial vision. Be aware of feints from surprise attacks....

...p..........P................................... ..............................P..........¡÷P....
...¡ô.........................P................... ...............................¡ô.......¡³.......
...¡³..........¡³..¡÷..q.......¡³.¡÷.q... you should in stead........¡³...q...............¡÷q.
Aware.....Distracted.....Stabbed~................. Get/Keep them both
q not in...by sudden.....because......................where you know
sight.......awareness ...not Keep-.....................where they are.
...............of q...............ing aware of P....Still trying to do 1@ a time

Constant resetting to neutral seems to me better than immediate loss because of distracted strategy.

Since they likely will attack (keeping the above Also in-mind) tie-up the incomming attack (tying-up includes a cripple so that you are not struggling with the opponent, thereby tying-up you as there are two of them.

Strikes to the throat have to penetrate ti disable~ Attack to the eyes and throat are not guaranteed to land though devestating potential if they land well enough. These are high attacks. You are making your middle and lower available by concentratint to those high frontal areas. And if you do a nonstop attack up there, and they catch your rhythm or when you empty...gutted...One might presume.

"I tried the shield tactic and it worked, but only on a person about my size. I don't think I could move anyone over 190 lbs."

Using the person as a shield by tieing them up to move them around. Not possible for a larger person to you? Cripple them instead


Those attacks are not bad-ish but not to be used at will without luck and much timing and awareness skill if to reduce getting struck while delivering and returning from delivery.

Merely being a potentially devestating technique does not mean can bu used in Every circumstance or any time with Best results or Same efficiency.


¡³=attacked person; ¡÷,¡ô=direction of your attention.

[BAI HE]

Strangers from behind?
Stop drinking at the Blue Oyster.

[method man]

Originally posted by SanSoo Student
I had an interesting scenario in my Kung Fu Sansoo class today. It involved a no stance non-chalant pose as you are being confronted by two strangers from behind. There are four different situations in this scenario:

1) Both attackers have no weapons and attack you at once from behind.

2) First attacker has a knife and attackers first, second attacker has no weapon.

3) First attacker has no weapon and second attacker has a knife.

4) First and Second attacker both have knives and attack at once.

Situation 1 and 2 were pretty easy to handle. As I would just neutralize attacker 1 by spinning counter clockwise and step into him strike the solar plexus, four kunckle strike the throat, and rake the eyes: which would neutralize him; then throw him into person into attacker 2, to create a 1/2-1 second delay and open up a window to attack the throat and then the eyes. The throat proves to be one of the deadlier places to hit as you would still feel the disruption of airflow and pain even if u were uped on adrenaline.

Situation 3 and 4 become harder as I get stabbed everytime I'm trying to throw attacker 1 into attacker 2. It seems that the second person has more confidence to help out his friend since he has a knife. When I was an attacker I felt the same way, becuase I knew one stab in the lungs and my victim is gone. The attacker would always get me as I move to the side of attacker 1 to get ready to throw him towards the other person. I would also tend to focus more on attacker 1 becuase of the immediate knife threat and get overworked on the first person.

One person executed a roll and took the second attacker to the ground and started to pummel him there. But I asked myself,"What if it was concrete, or a rough road with rocks and small things to get into your eyes or scrap you up as you roll?"
Another person used attacker one as shield after he was neutralized, but this person was a good 220 lb. 6'3" guy tossing around a 150 lb. 6' skrawny guy which was easy for him to do. It wouldn't really work if I (165 lb, 5' 11") try to use a 180+ lb. guy as a shield; I couldn't move the person fast enough to block a knife strike.

What are some ideas you people would do in situations 1-4 (primarily 3+4)? Running is not an option because you have already been stopped to acknowledge the presence of the two men behind you.

my idea is u sifu been watch to many kungfu movie u deal wit one person strait on already pretty good

u not superman

what about 5 people 6 people 7 people 2 knife 1 stick one guy sumo size.... ???????????????

u go crazy thinking about this nonsense dont wast u time

[SanSoo Student]

Can you even type proper english you moron?

What are do you study?

Have you ever been in a bar fight or street fight?

People have friends that will stick up for them, and sometimes a knife comes out. So SHUT THE F*CK UP if you have nothing intelligent to say.

[No_Know]

I can handle things better when I have good prepare for them.

When I walk around I have seen two or more people together. Friday nights Young adults gather.

When there Are 5 or 6 or 7 or... people of a mind to hurt a smaller group or individual they might not all fit in front of the person. Some might end-up behind the person.

If I can handle two people with knives behind me, then I should be able to handle one person (knife or no knife) in front of me, one-on-one.

If I one-on-one and there Are two or more. If I focus too much on the front one, the others might attack me when I'M attacking and I cannot defend.

It is not necessarily a waste of time to wonder about things that we do not normally come-against.

It is hard enough to handle one person, you are right. And superman can handle a lot of people. Sometimes a person is challenged and although they do not have Superman's Super powers they are given a lot to handle at one time. Sometimes that lot is people like getting jumped in a school yard by a bullie and h er/is gang~

[method man]

Originally posted by No_Know
If I can handle two people with knives behind me, then I should be able to handle one person (knife or no knife) in front of me, one-on-one.



wow maybe u really superman or crazy either way enjoy but u kidng u self .... U DEAD IF KNIFE ATTCK BEHIND U or u get very lucky becuz knifer stupid ..... any way u cut u cannot train for ... in bar in street in school in ring .... u finito!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[No_Know]

In a forest, a twig as it breaks can sound loud; even from out of sight. In a bar people look at interesting things. I can see the people in front of me looking behind me.

You are helpful to want people to not be rediculous in what they think they can do. But, do other than assign your fears or short-commings to others.

It might be wrong of me to say you can train this or that. But I am allowed to say training to tell if someone is behind you Can be done. I use my hearing and make sense of All the sounds I notice conciously. I also make a Mindscape with Intratracking/Intralocating.

And when there's a lot of sound continuously, then I listen for the silence.

Do you method man claim to Know A l l my skill levels and capabilities? Do you claim that you have not ever heard of people who were unusually good. Just because you only heard of such people perhaps, do you believe it is Impossible That I Might be one such person?

I might be Superman? Superman was superman amoungst Humans of Earth. Compared to them with the atmosphere not as harsh as his birth environment, he seemed super~.

When I see you method man what will the environment be? Will it be harsher than that for which I've trained or in which I've practiced? Or from which I was born. Lived. And raised? Are you now prophet, predicting~ what will come to pass. Any one. Can I Know the worst?

I can think of the worst I can and train as close to that as I am able and hope the World is not as bad as I can imagine. Or at least be aware when I'm out of my environment.

I No_Know

[SanSoo Student]

wow maybe u really superman or crazy either way enjoy but u kidng u self

What do you consider a "superman"? A man that can get up after a direct front piston kick to the groin, or a stab with a knife to the arm or body....

Some people can be supermen when they become crazy. With the right amount of adrenaline and drugs and mindset, some people can withstand massive amounts of pain and trauma before giving up.

This can all happen and you can appear to be superman when you are crazy. My answer to your question is: Yes, If will fight two people behind me, I will be crazy. I will use lethal force with the sole intention to cripple them and kill them, becuase I know if I don't try to kill them first I will be dead if I even move the wrong way.

[method man]

Originally posted by No_Know
Do you method man claim to Know A l l my skill levels and capabilities? Do you claim that you have not ever heard of people who were unusually good. Just because you only heard of such people perhaps, do you believe it is Impossible That I Might be one such person?



u humun being right?????? only so much u can do even if u top guy in world!!!!!!!!!!

traine 2 guy for knive behind u how u gonna proof u trane good for this???????????? how u proof just not good luck if u not die...... try again maybe????????? but if just screw arond with classmate then okay but dont kid youself u just bored but don wast to much time with noncense life too short 2 go crazy worry about how much superman inside of u.......

work hard trane hard play hard enjoy if 2 guy knife behind u and u thinking train serious for this then think again military dont train this police dont trane this why this make cense for u to train???????? crazy thinknig .... not crazy thinkning is maybe go learn CPR much more useful for protect life to people u care about then crazy make up kungfu movie self defend condition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[No_Know]

Your last advice should be taken by many people because it is good thinking.

I like thinking. That might be why I like dealing with (nearly) impossible situations like this one of attacked from behind and knife (knives).

Many people can CPR. Not many can do what I do/can. I will hopefully live out my life with dealing with the impossible situations that I might not ever actually exactly come-across. And be Happy~. If I happen to be in the situation of someone could use CPR. There are likely trained people who can come or are there already, and I step back if not walk away~. If I can not be a help there, I should go on with what I'm doing and Not waste that precious day...precious moment. If the person dies because I do not know~ CPR. They don't.

They died because they were hurt enough when the air stopped passing good enough into and out-of the person. They died because none of the other people in the area took CPR (either). They died because anyone there who knew CPR wouldn't do it scared of the crowd or scared of failing. They died because the medical doctor, or anyone who could have helped more, didn't want to risk getting sued...

I can give myself enough Un-due-ish grief about Not being or Not doing...

Life is like a classroom where everyone got the same assignment, but we all got parts of different stages. Some of what I hear is old news. Some, completes my understanding. And for this example, there might be some of which I had not thought.

I think your intention is good method man. Too much focus can distract one from the rest that is there.

Be.

I No_Know

[neigung]

The easiest, most effective way to deal with multiple attackers (including ones with weapons) is to run. Unless you can't.
In which case you've got about 90% change of getting the crap kicked out of you.

[Ray Pina]

Method man is actually making a lot of sense.

Neigung, I disagree with you. Two, three guys -- armed or unarmed -- are you Carl Lewis? They will catch you and then you will be tired and not prepared because your intention is to get away, and when you are captured your intention is lost.

Stand and fight! Unless of course you are at Times Square and there are thousands of people around and stores to run into and taxis and cops. But 3:00 a.m. on an empty subway ... you better fight!

[T_C_D*fighter*]

SanSoo StudentSanSoo Student: I have not read through all the posts to your original post so apologies if I have repeated what someone else has already written.

If you can control the first unarmed attacker by putting on a simple lever choke whilst putting in a quick but hard kick to the back of the knee joint, this will enable you to control a 6ft 3" 200lb'er what ever your size. (Trust me I am 6ft 2" and weigh around 16 stone, my instructor can move me around like a rag doll, in this case you just need decent control with pain and a balance break and they are all yours)

This will hopefully give you enough time to evaluate the situation and you have already guarded yourself if the second attcker was to come in straight away. If he doesn't he will not have a wild stab at you when you are holding his mate in a choke etc, he will try and get to your side or behind you, you can then just move, probably drag the first attacker around with you, hopefully protecting yourself in doind so.

Personally at this point I would push the first attacker into the second before he came near enough to use the weapon. Then leg it. Also I don't think I would try too hard about putting strikes in, you simply do noy have enough time, try it and ask both attackers to hit you as soon as they could. You will get 'stabbed' before you even hit the first attacker. That is how it would happen out there! they will not line up nicely for you!

Movement is the most important thing, movement of your self and the first attcker.

This is my personal opion, any others out there??

[Temujinn]

Ok, you must first think like your attacker(defending is always at a disadvantage)
If I attacked from behind with a knife, you wouldnt do anything but die, or be crippled this would be both at my liesure.
If I wanted to cripple you I would "hamstring" you, then work you over as I saw fit(remember you said attacked from behind).
Or I would drive the knife into your brachial nerve and artery cluster, And watch you bleed out, and i dont even need to reach into your line of vision to do these things, or wait there were two attackers, I guess he can kick you till you die.
No knife for either attacker, what would I do...
I would "shoot" at your knees, hold your legs while my boy stomped you silly(again you would start face down).
My point is if your attackers are trained at all and hit from behind, you are finished. JUst one attacker from behind with no knife, yeah there are alot of things you could do. The best is to be aware try to avoid being in the situation.
Oh if you have a knife, I will out run you if I dont, if I do, you will wish I had ran.

[T_C_D*fighter*]

Temujinn - I agree with your points regarding bothering to defend against knife attacks. It is not worth it, if it did really happen out of a dojo you would get seriously hurt 9 times out of 10.

I have never been taught to defend against knife attacks for that reason, but you can train to be aware of what is around/surrounding you and how to give yourself some chance of getting away.

You are very precise with your stabbing techniques, almost as if you expect a person to stand still for you to pick off these parts. The hamstrings is a good one though!

I used to be a semi-professional athelete so no chance of catching me if I were to run I am afraid.

I would like to see SanSoo students class, as it sounds like these attckers line up one by one in a nice orderly queue.

Cheers for your points.

Sansoo Student: [/B] , look back at your replies, the majority vote is to run chap!

[Temujinn]

TCD, I actually was trained to knife fight, knife fighting is the only way to understand the thinking of and attacker.
From behind the technique of Hamstringing is easy, it can be done to horses on the run so believe me a man is easy.
The Brachial attack is taught in the military for eliminating sentries.
you stick in and twist not in the neck but next to it where the brachial tubes run near the shoulder, the twist severes the artiery and bam, the guy drowns in his own blood, and more hen likly has a stroke from loss of blood pressure to the brain, it works much better then cutting someones throat, which requires strength, this requires none.
The human body has many easy targets, remeber men have been using blades to kill each other fro almost ten thousand years, it is a science, the counter is to be better with a blade, bare handed is suicide.
Attacking from the front you go after the legs as the person will back his body up, joint are areas of the body where conective tissue is close to the surface and easily cut. The knife I carry has a 3 in. blade, more then sufficent to reach into someone and done whatever I want.
If someone has a knife, run, if you get stabbed in the back, I promise you will run faster.

[custom156]

TCD, you really are learning well (I nearly said grasshopper there, LOL) I'm proud. :-)

Looks like I had better show you how to use the knife then.
Remind me about that Saturday, and I'll show you why classic knife defences have one or two holes (literally).

[T_C_D*fighter*]

Ok, I will invite Temujinn along too with his 3 inch blade. I will supply the horses and plenty of sentries for disposal! LOL

[SanSoo Student]

I thought to disable guards or patrol officers...the military trained covert people to stab at an upward angle into the chest, puncturing the lungs. So the avioli fluid would fill the sacks of their lung and puke/choke on the fluid+blood mixture in the lungs. This would keep them from screaming or running away, at least thats how I heard they did it in vietnam.