The eighteen systems poem/singing

[tanglang]

This is taken from the leun ting -LKW-book and the author refers to a singing formula where these 18 systems are said to be described. Leun Ting simply mentioned "ancient sources" without reveiling them in the footnote. So : here are some on board that know a lot about ancient sources. First: Do you know more about the persons and the cantonese names of forms or techniques?
Second: What is the name of the chinese poem in which the eighteen systems are mentioned?
Third: What are maybe other ancient sources and what do they have to do with the topic, what are they refering to? Would be happy for any kind of input,
thx TL

The "Long Punching" Form of the first Emperor of Sung Dynasty
The "through back" Form of Han Tung
The "Enclosing" Movements of Cheng En
The "Short punching" Form of Wen Yuen
The "Short range attacks" of Ma Chi
The "Monkey-Form" kung fu of Hsuan Huan
The "leaning On" Kung fu of Huang Chien
the "palm thrust at face"techniques of Mien Shih
The " clasped hands through punch" of Chin Hsiang
The "Grappling and dragging with heavy chopping fist" attacking methods of Huai Teh
The "hook, grapple and pluck " techniques of Liu Hsing
The "Rolling in and punch at ear" Kung Fu of Tan Fang
The "touching and throwing" Techniques of Yan Ching
The strong "Alternate kicks" of Lin Chung
The "seven styles chain-punches" Form of Meng su
The "chopping punch at breast" of Tsui Lien
The "rolling drag and punch2 Techniques of Yang Kun
The "praying mantis Styles" of Wang Lang as a big combination

[BeiTangLang]

First listing are version references I have for the movements followed by versions of the originators names (As related to your original list).
(Various Sources)

1.long fist, "cheng kuen"/Tai Jo, Tai Cho
2.through back, "Tong Bei","tu Tong Pi"/Hon Tong,Haun Tong
3.enclosing,"Mein Fung", "twisting locking","Lan Sao Kuen"/Cheng En,Cheng Yun, Zhang En,Tzen Un
4.short punching form, Duen Kuen/Wen Yuen,Won Yuen
5.Short range attacks,Dune Da /Ma Chi, Ma Ji
6.Monkey-Form,Hau Kuen /Hsuan Huan, Sun Heng
7.leaning On, "body leaning","Kau Shen"/Huang Chien,Wang Tien
8.palm thrust at face, "Mien Jueng"/Mien Shih, Mien Sai
9.clasped hands through punch, "Ke Shou Tong Chuan"/Chin Hsiang, Jin Xiang
10.Grappling and dragging with heavy chopping fist, "Ridgid collapsing throwing strokes"/Huai Teh, Wai Tek
11.hook, grapple and pluck, /Liu Hsing
12.Rolling in and punch at ear,Yin Chi Kuen/Tan Fang, Tam Fong
13.touching and throwing, Grabbing and throwing/Yan Ching, Ian Ching.
14.strong "Alternate kicks", Tam Toi /Lin Chung,Lam Chung
15."seven styles chain-punches","Seven Continuous fists" /Meng su, Meng Sen
16."chopping punch at breast","Belly cutting punch" /Tsui Lien,Chun Lian
17."rolling drag and punch","Pole Plucking" /Yang Kun,Yan Kun
18."praying mantis Styles","Tong Long Kuen" /Wang Lang, Wong Long

Hope this helps you out.
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[tanglang]

Does someone know more about the historic ( or maybe in some cases fictive?) persons mentioned above and can reveil the source of the singing or maybe other sources that stand in connection to the poem? looking foreward to your answers..TL

[mantis108]

The following is copied and pasted here from an old discussion on about the 18 styles. It is from my forum. I also added new comments underneath. Enjoy:

Greeting BaiLongFei,

First of all, welcome to the discussion. Thank you for sharing your thought. I might have missed your introduction. But if you have a chance, I would much appreciate your posting one in the member loung folder so that we can get to know you better. :D

Back to the thread:

<BLF> in brackets I have placed the relevant style to the line (which are currently practised). The Poem seems to represent styles in some instances and characteristic features of styles in others. All, do exist .

<Robert> True. But I believe that some systems have forms and use them to transmit their teaching. Others use what I would call a short strikes protocol which is similar to what we practice in CCK TJPM Sau Fa. What I am trying to come across is that at 2 of the "masters" in the Discourse are known Icon mentioned in the same novel in popular Chinese culture (ie Ying Ching and Lam Chung). If you examin, the order of the 18 arts using the conventional reading method there are only nine collums (2 lines forming 1 collum). It just so happen that Ying Ching and Lam Chung was under the same collum. To me that's more than quite an coincident and far too convinent. So I believe we have to question the intent of the whole piece. However, as a discourse of fighting method(s) , this is still a valueable piece.

<BLF> the 18 Discourses :
"1.In the beginning there was the "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) style of Emperor Tai Zu. [TAIZU CHANG QUAN]

<Robert> Question: This is the only style that is not listed with a particular master but its creator. Also Taizu was a postmortem title add by the Song imperial court. So that means it could not have been used while he was alive. But this piece is supposed to be a record of 18 masters met or taught at Shaolin during the Song periods? Shaolin temple (Henan province) was somewhat under Gin army control through out even the Song dynasty. Could this type of MA event easily happen during a turbulant time? I wish someone will come up a theory or an explanation for this.

This style is found in many nothern provinces including Shandong. However, which form in Mantis is derived from Taizu Chang Quan? If we have to take this piece seriously we have to ask tough questions like this.

<BLF> 2."Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong is considered parental. [TONGBEI QUAN]

<Robert> The most popular lineage of Tongbei is said to be only trace its lineage back to Late Ching dynasty (1800s). Piror to that it a blurry picture. One legend has it that Han Tong was taught by a White Ape immortal. So....

I can see some Tongbei techniques in Some mantis lineages such as 7 star but other lineages are not so clear.

[re:] Through the help of TJPM/TJMHPM friends, I have come across techniques there are similar to Tongbei in those styles and lineages. So it is clear to me that Tongbei influence permeates mantis styles. BTW, "maternal" would sound better and more cohersive in the context of the discourse instead of "parental".

<BLF> 3.Hand technique "Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang En is especially profound.

<Robert> This technique appears in the 12 characters principle (12CP) in TJMH Quanpu but not in the 12CP of 7*

<BLF>4."Close-range Strikes" (Duanda) boxing of Master Ma Ji is the most remarkable. [ FANZIQUAN ]

<Robert>There is a northern Shaolin form called Duanda is there any relation? Or this is what you suggested as Fanziquan? How much mantis is similar to or absorb from Fanziquan?

[Re:] Fanziquan is originally name Ba Zhan Fan which was mentioned in Ming dynasty General Chi's book.

<BLF>5.It is impossible to come close to Master Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).

<Robert>Personally, I think this is same as Kao Da method (2 stars or 3 star stuff - see my other thread on this) that we practice.

<BLF>6.The technique "Blocking Hands and Following Trough Fist" (Keshou Tongquan) of Master Jin Xiang. [LIU TONG QUAN]

<Robert>I haven't seen Liu Tong Quan. So I have no idea what it is like. From what I gather this technique is the concept of offense and defense at the same time - something like Feng Tong Tsui (right grab left punch) which is corner stone of mantis punching tech.

<BLF> 7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.

<Robert>Obviously, 3 of the 12 characters in 7* and 8 steps and also found in our TJPM Wooden dummy book.

[Re:] Gou Lou Cai can also be found in Mizongquan.

<BLF>8.The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing. [MIZONG QUAN]

From a book, which has brief key elements of different style, it has the exact 12 soft principle listed with the Mizongquan. But the earilest reference to 8 hard 12 soft (weapon usage) can be found in Ming Gerenal Chi's book.

To be continued...

[mantis108]

<BLF>9.The "Short Boxing" (Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary. [DUAN QUAN]

<Robert>I used to have a book on 6 roads of Duan Quan. But I am not sure this is related at all. If memory serves, I think is very down to earth nothing fancy northern type of form. It has basically 6 short roads. I think for a guy like Kevin, he can figure out a 2 men drill/partnered form with that one in no time.

<BLF>10.The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing. [HOU QUAN]

No comment on this one.

[Re:] Monkey Boxing seems to be the oldest known animal boxing "system" that exists. In the discourse, only monkey and Mantis are animal/insect based arts. This is rather interesting since that would mean that any of 5 animals forms/systems did not make it on the list during Shaolin Abbot Fuju's time. Did they exist or didn't they?

<BLF>11.The "Cotton Fist" (Mien Quan) techniques of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast. [MIEN QUAN]

<Robert> Here the most interesting, since Taijiquan at one point was known as mien quan. However, it would seem that your version here is the same as Sifu Profatilov's version on his article in the English translation but is different from the picture of the actual copy of the Discourse. The Chinese is in fact "Face Palm" (mien Jeung) that is a big difference in meaning and implications between the 2 so it would seem.

<BLF>12.The "Throwing-Grabbing and Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) techniques by Master Huai De.

<Robert>One of the 8 hards principle - the last one is Shuailue Liang Fun. IMHO The sounds Liang Fun and Yingbeng could easily be missed with oral teaching.

[Re:] Lee Kam Wing seems to interpret Shuailue Liangfun as displacing the bone/joint and seperating tendons/muscles type of techniques (ie Lianhuan Zuo Chui/jeung)

<BLF>13.The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gunlou Guaner) of Master Tan Fang.

<Robert> Personally, I think this is Pai An and its deriveties (ie Sui hoi moon)

<BLF>14.The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks" (Yuanyang
Jiao) kick of Master Lin Chong. [CHUO JIAO]

<Robert>This is pretty obvious. Again could this name be the Icon of Chinese pop Culture?

<BLF>15.The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by [MOSLEM QI SHI QUAN] Master Meng Su.

<Robert> This is indeed interesting. Islamic MA influences is not to be discarded in CMA.

[Re:]This also appeared in Wang Yifu's article as a entry of its own. If indeed Qishi Lianquan has Moslem connection, it would be hard to make a case for Mantis to be "Shaolin authentic".

<BLF>16."Hand Binding and Grabbing" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.

<Robert> Another one of the 8 hards - Zho Yau Sheung Kun.

<BLF>17.The techniques of "Explosive Strikes into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Paochui) [PAO QUAN] by Master Cui Lian.

<Robert>Pao Quan is? IMHO, Woli Paochui is one inch punch type of technique. In basically involve getting in close (with ducking, bobbing and waving type of movements which can be found in Mantis as well as boxing). Mantis capitalize the one inch punch tech though.

<BLF>18. "Praying Mantis" (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques".[TANG LANG QUAN]

This line at the end would be the summary of the discourse. It would seems that it gives a conclusive statement of Praying Mantis has the previous 17 "influences. IMHO, If this is truely a discourse of short strikes, this line would be from a praying mantis point of view (Perhaps through the eyes of Wang Lang) of how mantis would deal with close quater combat. This would be given reference to characteristics of "fighting styles" and specific techniques. This is not so appearance if the text is view on its own. But in the Quanpu as seen in Sifu Profatilov's article. It gives a better sense of what is happening there since the discourse is followed by another piece regarding the important points or finer points of close quater fighting in the Quanpu. Anyway, I don't think we can just take what it seems by face value. For me there more questions than answers with this discourse.

Regards

Robert

[Re:] I have come across another version that put Tanglangquan as 17 instead of 18. The meaning also changed from summerizing the styles to overcoming foe. It is possible that the mantis version(s) of the discourse may not be objective at all.

The 18 styles sonnet, although provide a great deal of interesting information, can not be taken as face value IMHO. It brings more questions than answers. The obscurity behind its creation (accredited to Abbot Fuju during late Song dynasty in Henan Shaolin temple) and lack of following up research efforts since lately really put this piece's creditbility in doubt. It is a prudent and responsible measure for mantis stylist to closely examin it before making any conclusion.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Number 15 is more like "7 Continuous Postures" not "7 Chain Punches".

Old Mantis manuscripts say that the "18 Family Methods", what is posted at top are 18 techniques that are combined.

So, what people consider "styles" from 18 Family Method are really techniques.

This includes the first one-Longfist- which is thought of as a style today.
As well as the second one -Tongbei- which is also a style today.
And yet we find Tongbei included in the list of Seven Long as a technique or principle.

Actually, I don't find that this 18 Families even exists as a method to teach fighting anymore.
It seems that it is lost forever, though I hope someone can prove me wrong.

Anyway, Mantis manuscripts list parts of 18 Families as techniques including:
Prince Song's LongFist
Han Tong's Tongbei
etc. as techniques NOT styles.

Since Hantong's Tongbei is the second of the 18 Families as well as one of the 7 Longs it is interesting to note that in the WHF book called 18 Luohan Gung he has also named some of the moves after the 7 Long.

So there is some overlap between the 18 Family Methods, the 7 Long and the Seven Continuous Postures.

[Shaolin Master]

Tainan,

Just maybe :

18/17 key techniques or strategies from 18/17 different masters of 18/17 different styles ? (at "that" time)

[BeiTangLang]

SM,...That is my take on it as well. Techniques taken from a family of arts & the names of either who created the art or were the most famous for using them.

Tainan, typo on my part: "Chained punches"...as in "linked"... is what it should have been. Not "Chain punches".:D
Oh,...& #18 Does !
;)

Best Wishes,
~BTL

[tanglang]

THX a lot, Robert and others .. first I have to work me through so much info at once ...;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[tanglang]

It seems to me that some of you guys have a copy of this book themselves? The eight hards are mentioned there.. so what about this general of ming-dynasty? Can there something be said about his person and the context in which his book has to be seen?

[mantis108]

General Chi (1528-1587 CE), some spell it as Qi, lived during the mid to late Ming dynasty (1368-1644 CE). This is one of the most exciting periods in Chinese history. China was under increasing pressure to open to the rest of the world. It is also under siege from Mogolians and Manchurians from the north and north eastern corner (ie Shandong) and also Japanese pirates from the south eastern coast (ie Jiangsu and Fujian). Ming dynasty also inherited Song dynasty's influence in military policies. That is a civil officer would oversee military operations. That is the reason why we see more military reports in the Ming dynasty. Thanks to the suspicious nature of the Ming regime, we have General Chi's book, which is rather a report he made on his efforts in battling the Japanese pirates. The report titled "Book of Recording the Effects and Novalities", which I am not sure is available in other languages, detailed his thoughts and training methods in all aspects of military operations of the time. It addressed things like military laws, award systems, battle tactics, skills training (8 hards and 12 fluids and other important MA related articles are found in that section), arms production, etc... BTW, they have firearms then as well. If Sun Tze is Plato, General Chi would be Aristotle. He was so successful that the pirate-bandits called him "Tiger Chi" (Chi Hu). It is said the if they saw General Chi's colour, they would flee saying "Tiger Chi is here!"

I would think German scholars would not miss a great book like that. So may be you can see if your local university or public library would have a copy of the translated text.

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108

YOU ROCK!

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. :D you are much too kind.

BTW, for those who are interested in seeing action flick that has realism in it around that period, I wrote a review on the movie Musa-the warrior. Enjoy:

<<<Musa-the warrior

I believe a martial arts revival is at hand. The recent movie releases such as Hunted (Tommy Lee Jones) and Musa (Korean, Chinese and Japanese production depicting more realistic weapon and/or hand-to-hand combats are going to help bring back the reality of weapon usage.

In Wusa, Korean word meaning warrior, it is one of the best all round combat in the good old days. We haven't seen this for a long long time. It is set between Yuan and Ming dynasty. A classic warriors try saving the princess and the refugees. In the end all met their fate. The story isn't that much of a story and the film actually brings back many familiar film ideas such as "Seven Samurai", "Saving private Ryan", "Tears of the Sun", "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon", and even "Legionaires". BTW, Starwars fans might think Han Solo and Princess Leah. ;) Anyway, it is all about arrows, swords, and romance. Actually, the dagger/knife is IMHO "star" of the show. Although it is not too much tears but it sure has blood and plenty of 'em. One thing of note, the Korean soldiers weren't that much different form the Chinese soliders. So sometimes it gets confusing just by looking at the faces and even their uniforms. Also, the egos and politics between the supposed comrades practically eroded their chances of survival, which is really really sad to see.

What is impressive is the ranges of combat and weaponary that this movies has to offer. I think it is definitely one of the best researched movies of the MA genre. Basically, the film showed the following scenarios and tactics.

1. Ambush in Castle keep.
2. Raid in desert.
3. Raid in rough terrains (ie hill side).
4. Pursuing enemy (runaway cart with escort.)
5. Ambush in forrest. (2 approaches)
6. Battle field/open and flat land combat (horseman to horseman, horseman to footsoliders and footsoliders to footsoliders.)
7. Castle Siege .

In each, scenario we see different usage of projectile, long and short bladed weaponary. Archers (snipers) would seem most valuable in flanking while defending in an open field. Practically, can't go on a mission without at least one of them. Daggers comes in real handy as close quartered and projectile weapon. It kills and saves lives at the sametime. Battle axes and 2 handed sabers are just awesome. Swords seems to be pretty useless. Twirling long handle weapon (ie lance) is useful for a foot soldier against horseman. After seeing this movie, my preceptions of twirling long thing real have changed. lol... Both the strength and weakness of the weapons are evident. The most interesting thing is the tactics and the counters that are employed. I was most impressed with the Mongolian soliders running up the rampart (and I thought Jackie Chan's stunts was useless, lol...)

All in all, I think this movie is a must have along side with Seven Samurai if you are into realistic MA usage in battle. If you see Musa-The Warrior DVD on sale, grab it.

Robert>>>>

Mantis108

[tanglang]

:) :) ;) ;) :) :) : thx very much- I'm just sitting IN one very big libary- so.. I'll simply have a look in the computer..:D

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Since Hantong's Tongbei is the second of the 18 Families as well as one of the 7 Longs it is interesting to note that in the WHF book called 18 Luohan Gung he has also named some of the moves after the 7 Long.

So there is some overlap between the 18 Family Methods, the 7 Long and the Seven Continuous Postures.

Tainan,

Indeed I too have wondered about the inclusion of these names. I guess it shows that Tanglang, as you have indicated often, has it's roots, if not it's origin, in the art of Shaolin.

However I have little information on the seven continous postures and I would appreciate hearing what you would care to share in this phase of your research.

Steve Cottrell