Carlos Castaneda Meets Martial Arts

[Raatra]

If you are at all familiar with Pencak Silat then you have heard at some point about its strong roots in mysticism. This site, under the articles section, gives some really interesting first-hand accounts about the style's magical practices. I dont vouch for the validity of the stories, I just wanted to share with those who might be interested.
Most of the articles under Pendekar Sanders involves the experiences he had with the spiritual aspect of Pencak Silat. The other articles are interesting as well. In particular check out The Eleven Principles of Destruction, as it goes into detail about many of the types of 'flow' and attitudes of the style.

http://www.cimande.com/writings/index_articles.htm


http://www.cimande.com/writings/other/principles.htm

[Raatra]

Im really interested in what you guys think about aspects such as these in relation to the martial arts. What are your opinions?

[count]

Deep, rich and beautiful. I'll spend some time reading the rest of the articles but thanks for the links. Great stuff.

[Raatra]

Here are some decent clips of Silat in action.

http://www.cimandecombat.com/loudbabycart/index2.html

The fluency of the style is basically the root of what i am training for.

[The Willow Sword]

and you seriously expect to be able to defend yourself properly with this stuff?:(

[Raatra]

What aspect of the "stuff" are you talking about Willow Sword?

[The Willow Sword]

I looked at those vid clips and began to see the false sense of security being initialized with those movements. i saw how legs could get swept out from under you. i saw how straight punches could go straight through those movements, and i saw how a grappler could easily take down and choke out any of those people. i even saw how a straight kick could penetrate and damage internal organs whilst theyre moving around like they had bad chutney for lunch.

[count]

You're kidding, right? Just trolling or something? Either that or the real, false sense of security shows in your comments.:p Are your observations about the people at this site or Silat in general? I assure you, these guys are well trained and documented by the tops in the world. Silat is one of the deepest systems you will find. No joke, These are the last people I would under-estimate. If you understand those clips, you saw some serious ground fighting ability, agile footwork with almost bagua-esqe, circular and angular attacks. I doubt you could lay a hand on one of these guys let alone a staight on front punch or kick. But if you did, I doubt it would be very effective. I've seen one of the instuctors mentioned take full on swings with a baseball bat to his shins. I doubt your "shaolin do" front punch would do the trick.

Raatra, here is another Silat link for good information. http://www.mubai.cc/home.htm These guys in Taiwan are no bull**** either.

[MaFuYee]

william sanders took silat and combined it with aleister crowley / o.t.o. (ordo templi orientis) stuff. - hence the use of the spelling, "magick", rather than the conventional "magic".

do u think traditional silat had ties to the o.t.o. ?

... this is not to say that religion or mystical practices have no place in silat. - indonesian culture has a rich spiritual tradition that's intertwined with their everyday lives.


i haven't seen the clips, but, i have his book, principles of destruction, and fighting magick v.1+2, and i have to admit, he often looks very awkward, and i don't think he well represents the real beauty of the art... but don't judge a whole multitude of systems based on some 2 second clips of one particular practitioner.

walk a mile in the shoes and then tell me again what u think of silat. (but do it after u find a shoe that fits.)

[count]

Check out the forms clips at the first site mentioned and let me know what you think. Also check out the video at the link I gave (http://www.mubai.cc/videoclips.htm) of self defense and knife defense. It's some good ****.

[The Willow Sword]

first of all you have the "magic" reference put in to this "fighting art". heres a wake up call: THERE IS NO MAGIC ASSOCIATED WITH FIGHTING AND HARMING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

second of all, the movements look like some ritualized form of dance rather than practical, SIMPLE, and effective means of defending oneself should they ever have to.

i think that its fun to fantasize about how we can study an "ancient cultures'" form of fighting and somehow have this magical ability to defeat an opponent with movements that waste energy and time. When it comes to the brass tacks of fighting i rarely see ANY of the techniques that are taught in schools actually utilized.
its really funny actually that you see someone do this really beautiful form of interpretive dance, call it martial arts, and when they actually fight one does not see this beautiful form in action, what you see is fists flying grabbing throwing to the ground, you see the reverting to the SIMPLEST way to defeat someone and it has no elements of the dance form, AT ALL.
Look at the UFC and PRIDE and some of the san sou tournaments i have watched in asia. we see the same thing over and over again.
count: my stay at SD DID actually teach me some good stuff and at times i have had to put it to good and effective use but when i did do it i wasnt prancing around. i have had my share of defeats and victories with what i have studied and practiced. and from an internalists' perspective count, YOU should know as well as I that it is the SIMPLE things that prevail over the complex and difficult.
Alot of what the forms and routines are in certain martial systems are ways to strengthen your internal self and to keep the body fit. but in all the years that i have seen fights and have been in fights(not claiming to be a master here) it has boiled down to the simple and straight forward.
i had to learn this from many people including reemul who handed me my a$$. doesnt mean that what i studied wasnt effective, it meant that i was too much in my head rather than on my center and i think thats where alot of these obscure martial systems like silat put you, is in your head, thinking that by practicing some form of ritual and mysticism that you can miraculously win a fight by doing techniques shown in those vids.
Hey these are just my opinions here, and i think that i am entitled to them, this is a forum of discussion and debate and i am not trolling.
TWS

[Taomonkey]

those last clips of the muslim guys on the rooftop, not impressed. Anyone with a little indo/filipino training can make someone with little or no training look helpless. I just saw some pretty pathetic flow almost no technique. The last clip, still laughing about that one

Oh and to TWS
Search out a good silat school and challenge someone. Your opinion will quickly change. All aspects of training have a purpose, even if someone cannot precieve it. My experience with silat is this,,nothing comes forward. There is no ring sport aspect, no I hit you, you block, you counter, I block I counter...
The dance like juru's lead to and teach better body mechanics, they teach the flow, they are not fighting, but will make you a better fighter. Much like how ballet can make you a better running back.

[Christopher M]

"Castaneda Meets Martial Arts"

So you're saying these guys made up their martial arts? ahahaha :p


Originally posted by MaFuYee
william sanders took silat and combined it with aleister crowley / o.t.o.

Are you serious? Do you mean Sanders was specifically into the OTO, or are you talking in general here?

[Raatra]

Id like to say i respect your opinion Willow Sword, but its difficult to do so with your arrogant attitude. Also, to dismiss an entire culture's martial and spiritual way of life simply because it hasnt been on display in front of some drunken rednecks during PRIDE or UFC just outright ****es me off. Im sorry but you need a nice dose of humility. I know for a fact you wouldnt act like this if you were in my presence. The internet provides a nice safe place for comments like that. I was just trying to share an interesting and often unheard of style with you all, and you have to come start $hit.

Did i say i endorse anything on the site? No. I said i advocated the flow of the system and thought the article on the 11 principles of destruction was good. Do i think silat is combat effective? Absolutely. Are the people in those clips fighting? No. They are practicing what my friend's teacher would call "flowing", basically an energy exercise similar to push hands but not entirely. In light of this, do you think before you open your mouth? No.

[The Willow Sword]

i am just providing a debate for you based on what you have shown and put forth to the forum. now YOU are getting angry and "pi$$ed off" as you put it.
You can percieve what i write as arrogance but maybe if you looked at it from an objective point of view you would see the practicality in what i am writing.
and yes this is a safe haven for people to come a discuss thier views and opinions with out having to deal with someone ultimately personalizing and getting all egotisitcal and wanting to fight to prove wrong or right. i went down that road and now have evolved past it. have you? maybe not.
and since you eloquently made your stance clear about how you feel about the UFC and pride competitions, then why not prove yourself right about what you have learned and go enter a ufc or pride competition. who needs the humility here? maybe you do Raatra.

and to make the reference to "carlos castenada meets martial arts?" have you even read carlos castenadas writings? i sure have and there is nothing that rings of fighting in his books, not that it relates AT ALL to silat or its "mysticism". i would make the statement that carlos castenada and his teacher "don juan" evolved and transcended past this need to get your rocks off by cultiviating your "mystic beliefs" and "spirituality" for kicking A$$.
read journey to ixtlan or fire from within or even the eagles gift and you will understand what i am talking about.

TWS

[Vajra]

those last clips of the muslim guys on the rooftop, not impressed. Anyone with a little indo/filipino training can make someone with little or no training look helpless. I just saw some pretty pathetic flow almost no technique. The last clip, still laughing about that one

what are you laughing about? it was two guys doing attack/defence and follow ups for the camera. no it wasn't the greatest stuff, but have you ever tried to do anything for the camera and then see how it turns out? the presence of the camera alone makes you second guess yourself a lot and it always seems to come out looking like **** unless you take a bunch of shots and the camera guy knows what he's doing.

[chen zhen]

I already posted most of these videoclips.
old news.

edit: what the hell is this?! (http://www.cimandecombat.com/gallery/cimande_photos/cimande11.jpg)

[Ray Pina]

I couldn't open the clips so I can't speak on what you guys saw.
But TWS hasn't done anything more than state that he didn't like what he saw from a martial standpoint. This is a forum, it's impossible to say, "I'll show you" so all we can do is discuss. I don't think he was being arrogant. Not everyone will find favor in everyone else's style.

Personally, reading those principles, I see a lot of cross over with most style basics regarding trapping, timing, adhering, ect.

I've played with a Silat guy a few times whi outwayed me. The first time was about 4 years ago when I was doing WIng Chun. He beat me -- though it was sort of a dirty, late hit, and he was drunk and on LSD but that's a whole other story.

I would say we equally matched about 3 years ago when I was focusing on Mantis. Again, the big ass drunk played dirty.

I played with him a year and a half ago for the last time and learned not to trust his a$$. I broke his rib on the first move (swear to God) but didn't learn of this until a few months ago.

My experience was that Silat "felt similiar" to Wing Chun (I know, I hate using that word to describe martial arts but if fits here) but chose different, unorthodox angles and did indeed use some funny timing. The guy was also a ***** and viscious, but that could have just been him -- that's why I hit him with a phoenix knuckle though I played dump when he asked if I did!!!!

[ZIM]

He beat me -- though it was sort of a dirty, late hit, and he was drunk and on LSD but that's a whole other story. Sounds like it's Crowley-influenced to me :p

[KC Elbows]

Christopher M and I are in total agreement about Castenada. Just once, I'd like to find a person who writes some mystical flubbub who comes to their understanding through "a mystic journey under the tutelage of a nubian princess with a torn braziere", but no, it's always got to be some dirty guy on the road. I find it suspect that enlightenment always seems to follow the Batman and Robin formula on the best seller list. Elijah Mohammed also claimed a mystic teacher on the road(who subsequently became relegated to a backseat in mohammed's preachings once elijah had his own church), John Kim preached Wang Po, who supposedly taught him all of judo by pushing him down a mountain(again, Po's existence became less important in Kim's idealogy than Kim himself, just like Elijah Mohommed), I think it's also somewhat telling that Castenada's vehicle for crossing over was a root. I suspect his target audience is not concerned with braless nubian princesses bearing wisdom. :D

As for Silat, I know precious little of it, but I have read a tiny bit of what was supposedly a fairly typical training regimen, and massage is never a bad way to start training, followed by stretching, etc.

[fa_jing]

Quote: "writes some mystical flubbub who comes to their understanding through "a mystic journey under the tutelage of a nubian princess with a torn braziere"


see Arnold Schwartzenegger, Oui magazine interview, 1997.

:p

[Raatra]

"you eloquently made your stance clear about how you feel about the UFC and pride competitions, then why not prove yourself right about what you have learned and go enter a ufc or pride competition?"
-willow sword

You havent heard me right. You are tossing an entire martial, cultural and spiritual way of life out the window because it hasnt appeared in your commercialized brawl known as PRIDE and UFC. Even if you feel the way you do about it, you have no respect or humility towards another culture's traditions by stating your opinions the way you have. You basically said bluntly that it is ineffective and that some of the aspects were outright bull$hit. Am i doing that same thing to UFC and Pride? YES, because it is the redundant and inexperienced answer i hear for everything about kung fu.

"and to make the reference to "carlos castenada meets martial arts?" have you even read carlos castenadas writings? i sure have and there is nothing that rings of fighting in his books, not that it relates AT ALL to silat or its "mysticism". i would make the statement that carlos castenada and his teacher "don juan" evolved and transcended past this need to get your rocks off by cultiviating your "mystic beliefs" and "spirituality" for kicking A$$."
-willow sword

You didnt even read any of the stories on the site. Nor did you listen to what i posted. The thread's title was a fun way to say what the site was about. Casteneda had nothing to do with martial arts of course. Im not interested in "kicking a$$", i was interested in the beauty of the tradition and its fluency of movement, which i stated many times as you would know if you read what i said. I even said i wasnt endorsing any of this, yet you jump on me as if it is my very soul that you must immediately condemn.

Im not going to "debate" with you if you arent going to take the time to understand my position on the topic first.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
i would make the statement that carlos castenada and his teacher "don juan" evolved and transcended past this need to get your rocks off by cultiviating your "mystic beliefs" and "spirituality" for kicking A$$.

Hell, they transcended past the need to even exist or tell the truth! ba dump bump

Actually, though, Castenada does teach movement exercises for "unequaled states of physical prowess and well-being" in his system of Tensegrity (http://www.castaneda.org/english/tensegrity/index.cfm).

[Taomonkey]

Vajra wrote
"what are you laughing about? it was two guys doing attack/defence and follow ups for the camera"

did you hear the audio, one guy is yelling something like you want to be in my video huh? do you huh? its darn funny.

[The Willow Sword]

Quoted by Raatra:
You are tossing an entire martial, cultural and spiritual way of life out the window because it hasnt appeared in your commercialized brawl known as PRIDE and UFC.

first of all it isnt MY commercialized brawl Raatra. 2nd i havent tossed anything out the window raatra. i dont combine spirituality with fighting and harming other human beings.

I dont down anyones spiritual practices in fact i respect ALL forms of spiritual expression. what i am "tossing out the window"as you put it, is the fact that you think that you will be able to survive a fight doing what you are doing. hey its only an opinion Raatra and i am noone special , so dont try to make yourself feel better by convincing yourself to ME that what you do is effective. remember it is what YOU think that matters ,right?

hey and i dont hate you or dislike you Rattra. I guess you are never really going to know if YOUR system works unless you put it to the test. if thats what you feel you need to do to justify the effectiveness of what you practice. i mean i dont know you personally but from what i can tell from you by your posts concerning what i have posted is that you are attacking the word usage of my post rather than the subject at hand, which is, in simple terms "I dont think that what you do is effective, martially speaking" and i have stated why.
not once have you countered anything that i have said with what you have learned and the techniques therein.
So do you feel that i would not be this way with you in person? do you feel this way because your so GOOD? or you might out weigh me or that you would "show me" by knocking my block off to prove me wrong or yourself right? i dont know but if i were in your shoes and practicing a "deep rooted spiritual and cutlural"martial art i would think of ways to educate my "apparent ignorance" rather than take the immediate defensive and personalize it to the degree that you have.
who knows we could have learned from each other in this exchange(i actually had an interest in silat at one time) but now that i see that this is what the students of silat are like then i dont want any part of it.
good luck in what you do raatra. TWS

[Raatra]

Man willow you dont read what i post. I never said i studied silat. I never said anything about those clips and thier combat effectiveness. I started the thread saying "hey look here this is interesting" and that i like the FLUENCY of the style. That was it. I dont study silat and never have. The only thing that got me annoyed with you was when you started frowning at me and saying that "do you really think you can defend yourself with this raatra?" I never said anything about defending myself, i merely thought the site was interesting. It was like you were just trying to troll and made way too many assumptions about me. Thats what pi$$ed me off man. Go read my first 2 posts man.

[Vajra]

did you hear the audio, one guy is yelling something like you want to be in my video huh? do you huh? its darn funny.

oh ... no i didnt.... my bad.

[The Willow Sword]

originally quoted by Raatra
The fluency of the style is basically the root of what i am training for
hmm this seems to imply that you train in silat

AND this qoute: "
Im really interested in what you guys think about aspects such as these in relation to the martial arts. What are your opinions?

well i gave you mine. just turned out that you werent really interested at all in other peoples opinions. seems like you are prosalitizing everyone to YOUR site and the priciples therein.

final quote from Raatra
Did i say i endorse anything on the site? No. I said i advocated the flow of the system and thought the article on the 11 principles of destruction was good. Do i think silat is combat effective? Absolutely

Hmm this also seems to imply that you study silat and if in fact you dont then how can you be "absolute" in its combat effectiveness? So what martial art DO you study if you dont practice silat?
I studied Mantis kung fu, aikido and shotokan, then a hybrid shaolin/kempo style called shaolin-do(haha which we all know and luv to death here) and finally the last 8 years of training even during Sd was Hsing-i , pakua, and for the last two years out of the sd realm it has been qiqong healing and meditation and hsing i chuan.

TWS

[Vajra]

Hmm this also seems to imply that you study silat and if in fact you dont then how can you be "absolute" in its combat effectiveness?

he doesn't study silat. we know eachother personally and i happen to study pukulan. this is what he's basing his opinion on.

i didn't argue the point with you because i think your kind of a di ck.

[Vajra]

no offence btw ...

it's just that i don't like you.

[Raatra]

Yes willow you gave your opinions more about my ability rather than the art. You stated them in reference to me when i dont even study the style. Heres a quote from my first post. "I dont vouch for the validity of the stories, I just wanted to share with those who might be interested. "

Also here is something for you along your own lines of reasoning. The internal arts you study havent been proven in the UFC or Pride, they are useless for self defense. :( Willow, you really think you can defend yourself with this stuff? :(

[The Willow Sword]

Yes i can.;)

good luck in what you do raatra. TWS

[Raatra]

Then hop into Pride and UFC and prove it, as you would say. Otherwise your arts are utterly useless. Which is basically what you said to me as well.

[Buddy]

Sanders learned and then adulterated Bapak Victor deThouars personal art of Pentjak Silat Tongkat. There is film footage of Sanders learning in Pak's basement. Sanders is a fraud and a bull**** artist. His own main student, Jeff Davidson, has publiclly repudiated him and left his organization. The silat world is a small one and everybody knows whos who. Outside of Sander's cult like operation, everybody knows him as a thief and a huckster. Kabbalah indeed.
Buddy

[count]

Thanks for the heads up Buddy, at least your opinion is an educated one. Do you know who the student who performs the solo forms at the site is?

[MaFuYee]

... bunch of interesting comments on this thread.

Count;
sorry, but i cannot open the vid clips from the cimande site.
i saw the first clip from the link u gave, (muslim dude) - it's ok, but he seems to be a relatively 'young' teacher. - it's a whole 'nother ball of wax when u see the guys who've been around for a long time... (less effort, more result)

tao monkey;
how would u fare against that muslim dude?

.... i thought so...

Chris;
sanders stuff is definitely o.t.o. / western magick. - according to the writings in sander's books, fighting magick v.1+2. - he claims that much of indonesian mysticism comes from the west, but i find that a bit hard to swallow.

chen zhen;
that pic is strange looking if ur not familiar with that style of silat; and those guys look like 'posseurs' to me ;) but, fighting from a low position, can be a very effective strategy. it's very frustrating to your opponent. (actually, they fight high and low - changing it up is very hard to deal with, and it would not be a bad idea to try and incorporate that strategy into ur training.)
* who's the hottie in ur avatar? - hook a brother up! ;)

*****
casteneda wrote fiction. - i don't care if his books are in the non-fiction section. - but i still like his books, for the core messages, and just because they are an entertaining read. - for the stoned hippies / new agers who blindly swallow the stuff, hook line and sinker.... well, that's their own problem.

to willow sword, your opinions of silat are based on very little actual 'fact'. - hold off on your judgement until you have some first hand experience. - sure, the stuff may look strange at first, but once u experience good silat, it makes a lot of chinese arts look very beginner.

and if i remember correctly, don't u do bagua? - it's ironic that you don't see the martial / mystic connection; considering bagua is barely even a martial art. - it's roots, if available literature is to be believed, is that of a taoist walking meditation. (as still can be witnessed in certain schools of zen/chan, and not too dissimilar to the ecstatic dances of the sufi whirling dirvishes.) - do you view bagua techniques as purely mechanical? do you ardently practice walking the circle?

re: THERE IS NO MAGIC ASSOCIATED WITH FIGHTING AND HARMING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

... and you, being an expert on 'magic', are qualified to speak as an authority on this subject, correct?

** if anyone is familar with "the speed guy" - jack something or other... (mr. hit a guy 12 times in one second....)
he also has "magick" programs. (secrets of the kahuna warrior)

as does the whip guy.... (dont' rememer his name, (guy savelli?) but he has ads in the ma rags) but i believe he bandies the term 'psychic', instead of 'magic'.

magic/spirituality is also a big part of indiginous kali/escrima. - see dan inosanto's book, "the philipino martial arts"

i do not believe in striving for the aims of 'magick', as i believe it to be a dead end, but i do not dismiss it as the mere machinations of overactive imaginations either.

the term 'magic' carries with it a lot of 'baggage', (associations that come from popular media) which do not necessarily reflect the reality of the situation, and lay-science, being the new religion, scoffs at things that can't easily be observed. - but the martial/mystic connection is nothing new. (recall tales of the boxer rebellion.)

- it'd be nice to hear from someone who has first hand experience of magic.

[Black Jack]

As a silat player I have heard the same info Buddy related concerning Sanders. Total commerical bullsh!t artist. From what I understand is that what he does is not even close to real silat.

For real silat you need to take a look at the de Thouars, Jim Ingram, Cikgu Sam, Richard de Bordes, Stevan Plinck, Ratu Adil, or a number of other excellent gents out there.

btw- Don't listen to that retarded clown. Willow Sword is all air and pu$$y hair. Getting a martial lecture from that SD queen is like getting a lecture on how to pick up chicks from Rip Torn.

I can see him now practicing his forms to a Britney Spears song while his obese mom claps and cheers from the living room doorway.

[Taomonkey]

MaFuYee wrote "tao monkey;
how would u fare against that muslim dude?

.... i thought so..."

Thanks,,I too think I would deal with him quite quickly, and effectively.

[The Willow Sword]

Count: your cool avatar is about the only thing going for you, quit while you are ahead.


MafuYee: I live in a spectrum of REALITY when it comes to my internal training and practice. i am not pretending i am in some mystical magical fantasy land where by "walking the circle" i am magically and mysteriously becoming immortal.
my spirituality is no ones fukin buisiness and so i dont have to explain myself in that area to you or any of you.

as far as being an expert on magic? hahaha no i guess i am not an expert on david copperfield and parlour tricks to gain the attention of unsuspecting people trying to find some sort of identity in thier lives through Martial arts.

Black jack: yet again you demonstrate just how white trash and worthless you are with your comments.


TWS

[Buddy]

Hi Jeff,
I didn't see any clips. If it Sanders stuff I'm just not interested. To Black Jacks list I would add the Knustgraichen brothers and Frank Den Daas in SoCal who do Bapak Rudy Terlingen Ratu Adil and Ade.
Buddy
BTW Scott called me, nice bloke.

[Raatra]

MaFuYee...
Im right there with you on most points man. As far as "real" magic i think its mostly misunderstood. One of my girlfriend's long time best friends is actually a formally trained druid that spent many years in Ireland learning the craft. Now i was very skeptical of this guy, but he had alot of really interesting information and was a very serious practitioner. Its a religion for him though, not the method of manipulation and sorcery that television and books has made it to be. The fact that he actually took the time to learn in an actual druidic order for such a long time earned my respect though.

Heres another clip of some silat, this guy doing some interesting sweeps and such. Now this stuff doesnt look any less ridiculous than a flying armbar, but the flying armbar works so why cant this craziness?

http://www.pecahan.com/mmdemo.WMV

WILLOW SWORD...

Please do not respond with "OH MY GOD, DO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN DEFEND YOUSELF WITH THIS NONSENSE? HOLY $HIT YOU SUCK! I CAN SEE SO MANY FLAWS IN THAT ITS PATHETIC. I WOULD TEAR THAT GUY A NEW ONE." I understand you feel that way, but keep applying that anti-troll cream daily and your problem with soon go away.

[count]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
Count: your cool avatar is about the only thing going for you, quit while you are ahead.



TWS
That and the fact that I'm not stupid enough to believe the kind of bull**** any old fraud who claims to know 900 forms and bagua and hsing-i spews out. You wouldn't know good Hsing-I if it bit you. At least BlackJack and Buddy speak from experience with the arts and not from a deluded understanding from a confused cult group like Shaolin Do. Hard to believe you would say anything bad about anyone elses skill level. Just bitter I guess.

[The Willow Sword]

whatever you say man.:rolleyes:


Raatra: that clip was interesting. Those moves would certainly look good in a Movie;)

TWS.

[KC Elbows]

Several important points:

-How exactly can people argue the effectiveness of an art based off of one guy's clips and no real discussion of further clips and related principles?

-It is always advisable to save the vitriol for threads on politics, religion, and SD. That is where anger can really pay off.

and finally

-While I think Count is a decent member, I must admit that his avatar, despite TWS' claims, spins far too much to be cool. Spinning is a sure sign of insanity. You can take my word for that. Spinning avatars mean crazy people, goth ones mean chronic self abusers, Star Wars ones naturally mean virgins.

and

-I must find the book of terminology that Black Jack utilizes, because I will never be happy until I, too, can use phrases like "all hot air and ***** hair" naturally.

[Shaolin-Do]

Its called BJs Big Nasty Book of Ism's. Send me 200$ and you can consider a copy as good as yours!

[Chang Style Novice]

KC has dosed the correct with psychedelic toad juice and abandoned it in an impenetrable jungle to find it's "Spirit Guide."

Carlos Castaneda is a drugged out hippie liar burnout, and if you believe in "majjykal powers," you may as well quit working hard and just lick Paul Mooney between his toes in the hopes of absorbing his mastery of Kong Jing.

[Taomonkey]

when it comes to the subject of magik or mystical powers , spiritual stregnths in conjunction with martial arts, i take this attitude,
There are greater things and greater masters than you or I so it may very well exist, but like the tao te ching says
those who know do not speak and those who speak do not know.

If one proclaims that he has great power and skill dont believe it, true masters allow their actions to speak for them.

[TonyM.]

By his fourth book (I'm a slow learner) I was sure Carlos made a big mistake trying the jimsom weed. It's very poisonous. I think his original personality went bye bye.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
KC has dosed the correct with psychedelic toad juice and abandoned it in an impenetrable jungle to find it's "Spirit Guide."

I regret licking the pschedellic toad. For the rest of my life, I will wonder if I was hallucinating or if the toad was really saying "a little higher, baby."

[Chang Style Novice]

$1 > KC Elbows

[TonyM.]

ROTFLMAO!

[greendragon]

Count, back in this thread aways you told of the guys hitting their shins with baseball bats. That would not impress me, only assure me they were idiots with a short martial future. Otherwise you have many good posts.
Raatra, I think most traditional martial arts carry over ritual if not mystery from their culture. A lot of it is shed in the westernization process. If this interests you, look into the Taoist arts. But word, the realm of magic has little to do with martial arts and is generally clung to by psychotics, energy vampires and jealous masters.
Training should be fun, like "guided by the beauty of our weapons" kinda thing.

[Raatra]

greendragon...

My definition of "westernization": The process by which a lazy mind strips away the ideas, methods and practices that do not result in the immediate satisfaction of its erratic whims.

Much of the "magic" that people talk of in martial arts is simply the end result of diligent practice of exercises that do no have immediate forseeable results, yet in time produce a significant change in a persons being, both physically and mentally. Such practices create people that can perform feats that seem unrealistic or fantastical to someone who hasnt followed the rigorous and well defined path towards such abilities and therefore, such people are unable to see how such things are possible.

[SifuAbel]

Not speaking :D

[Starchaser107]

i know im a bit late but i like the empty hand transition to knife video lol
cool

[David Jamieson]

My definition of "westernization": The process by which a lazy mind strips away the ideas, methods and practices that do not result in the immediate satisfaction of its erratic whims.

lol, I would define that more as impetuosity no matter where it's from, but that's pretty funny.


Much of the "magic" that people talk of in martial arts is simply the end result of diligent practice of exercises that do no have immediate forseeable results, yet in time produce a significant change in a persons being, both physically and mentally. Such practices create people that can perform feats that seem unrealistic or fantastical to someone who hasnt followed the rigorous and well defined path towards such abilities and therefore, such people are unable to see how such things are possible.

Agree to an extent. Arthur C Clarke once said that any sufficiently advanced technology that is beyond the comprehension of the observer can quickly be delegated to the realm of magic. In the sense that you are using the idea, I would agree that the technology is a 'change method' that effects a person.

But as someone here said, anyone who purports mastery instead of "showing" mastery, isn't what they think they are.

Having said all that, Silat is a pretty cool fighting art, but it is also a holistic art much like kungfu or capoiera or many of the other martial arts that have adopted an entire 'way of life' attitude about what is practiced.

The whole 'way of life' thing is ever changing (because people are always changing) and people don't see clear to the old ways so much anymore because societally and intellectually man has grown by leaps and bounds in the last century or so and the majority are into different kinds of snake oils now, and philosophies on life.

BJ- your remarks about britney and a fat lady clapping along put a very bad image in my head and I am ashamed that I laughed when I read it.

TWS- take it in stride man.

Count - Pa Kua is a cool art, spinning Pa Kuas are cool too.

cheers

oh yes! One more thing, I've read prety much everything that Carlos ever wrote and I enjoy his story telling. But that's all they are is stories. None of it can nor ever has been verified independently of Castenedas' own claims. Hmmmm, that sounds familiar. :)

[Raatra]

What if "mastery" cant be demonstrated though, only known. And im not talking mastery of "magic" where you shoot lightning from your a$$ and fire from your eyes, but the mastery of the self and the myriad forces within.

Oh and just to reiterate, i dont endorse anything on the site links i posted. I just thought it was interesting and would be interesting to hear peoples ideas about similar ideas.

[David Jamieson]

What if "mastery" cant be demonstrated though, only known. And im not talking mastery of "magic" where you shoot lightning from your a$$ and fire from your eyes, but the mastery of the self and the myriad forces within.

That's fine. But that would inevitably lead back to the "he who knows does not spek and he who speaks does not know idea"

Which is not about professional, technical or vocational things, it is specific to the Tao and frankly I think it gets overused a lot by someone who picks up a copy of a taoist leaflet or loose interpretive writing.

IE: Because someone speaks about a topic that they are expert in does not in any way mean that they don' know what they are talking about or intimately the subject.

But, when one states"I am a master over you" specifically, they are master of nothing, because who the heck would stick around for that kind of abuse? lol

However, if one offers what they know freely and without pretense, that is a differnet story, and again, a persons overinflated ego doesn't mean they have 0 skill either. It just means they have an overinflated ego which is or isn't appealing to those who have to deal with that person.

Having said all that. the journey is your own and you cannot pass mastery to another, you can only manifest it in yourself and truthfully, no one is master of anyone else except perhaps in a short term scenario, because we all get ours in the end :-)

[Stranger]

How about Herman Suwanda's students, would they be legit as well?

Why does the web address for the old Ratu Adil website send you to a website that has nothing to do with Rudy Ter Linden or silat?

[Stranger]

Why does the link on "knifedirectory.com" for Gayong silat send me to a list of websites on h0mosexual porn?

[SifuAbel]

Not speaking , again. :D :D :D

[Stranger]

Sifu Abel,

Can you at least tell us, who you are not speaking to or what you are not speaking about?

Are you not speaking on the topic, Calos Castaneda?

Are you not speaking on the subject of mysticism?

Are you not speaking on silat?

[Raatra]

who cares if he isnt speaking.

[KC Elbows]

Kung Lek is just trying to make you feel better about your spinning avatar, Count. Don't fall for it. After all, he's been on this forum for years. Word is, he's gone native. Just look at his avatar. He wants you to suffer the way he has suffered.

However, good post, KL, in all other ways.

[IronFist]

I didn't read any other replies.

Notes:

1. Some of it was cool looking.

2. Some of the music you can select at the bottom of the page is pretty awesome.

3. I know some people who would refer to that as pitter-patter boxing (girly little slap boxing). I dunno tho.

Cool music tho.

IronFist

[Raatra]

I agree, its patty cake boxing. But its interesting to watch if you know the meaning of certain movements they are doing. Also they are dancing more than they are seriously fighting. Its like a fluency exercise.

[count]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Kung Lek is just trying to make you feel better about your spinning avatar, Count. Don't fall for it. After all, he's been on this forum for years. Word is, he's gone native. Just look at his avatar. He wants you to suffer the way he has suffered.

However, good post, KL, in all other ways.
Kung Lek is spot on about my icon.
A. I am the least crazy person I have known. (Certifiably sane)
B. Bagua is a spinning art.
C. My avitar is original and self created art.
4. **** off if you don't like it!
Just kidding:D
Carry on
Silat is one of the most complete and effective systems on the planet.

[The Willow Sword]

You know whether or not Carlos Castenadas writings are Fictions or based on actual journeys he took and people he met, doesnt really matter.
It is the Core philosophy of his writings that matter in my opinion.

TWS

[Stranger]

who cares if he isnt speaking.

I he's got some dirt, inquiring minds want to know! :D

[All-Knowing-One]

that many (most?) martial arts are delusional and silly.
That silat was not effective.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by count

Kung Lek is spot on about my icon.
A. I am the least crazy person I have known. (Certifiably sane)
B. Bagua is a spinning art.
C. My avitar is original and self created art.
4. **** off if you don't like it!
Just kidding:D
Carry on
Silat is one of the most complete and effective systems on the planet.

In response to your alphabetized response:

A. You need to meet more people :p
B. So is that thing they do with plates at the circus
C. Very nice, but still crazy
D. Now you're sounding like my wife. :D

However, you are correct about Silat. Silat is like mana from heaven. Silat is like milk from Shiva's teat. Got silat?

[tnwingtsun]

6-pack of beer.....$7.99










2 lbs. Shrimp for tonights pasta.......... $9.95












Seeing that liberal brain f@rt Willie sword getting slam-dunked
once Again by Blackjack....................................




PRICELESS!















"btw- Don't listen to that retarded clown. Willow Sword is all air and pu$$y hair. Getting a martial lecture from that SD queen is like getting a lecture on how to pick up chicks from Rip Torn.

I can see him now practicing his forms to a Britney Spears song while his obese mom claps and cheers from the living room."







:D :D :D

[The Willow Sword]

That was very witty indeed. boy oh boy you got yer nose real far up BJ's A$$ this time with your support of his white trash ideals. but hey,, birds of a feather:D

[Christopher M]

Speaking of "recommended" silat in N. America, does anyone have any experience with Edward Lebe's harimau bunch?

Thanks.

[SifuAbel]

continueing not to speak. :D :D :D

[Stranger]

ttt for comments on the other silat instructors asked about (ie. Suwanda)

Sifu Abel,

I give up. :D

[SifuAbel]

Not speaking some more.

:rolleyes: :D :D

[GeneChing]

I regret licking the pschedellic toad. For the rest of my life, I will wonder if I was hallucinating or if the toad was really saying "a little higher, baby."


https://video-images.vice.com/articles/613bba8601110f009bc447a8/lede/1631305045207-992021bufotoadcvv3.jpeg
COLLAGE BY CATHRYN VIRGINIA | IMAGES FROM GETTY

Tourists Are Now Smoking Toad Venom in Mexico’s Hipster Town Tulum (https://www.vice.com/en/article/wx53e5/tourists-are-now-smoking-toad-venom-in-mexicos-hipster-town-tulum)
Observers are split on the consequences of “speed-toading” using the venom, called bufo, as a cure for the ills of the modern world.
Mattha Busby
By Mattha Busby
September 14, 2021, 5:00am


TULUM, Mexico — The smoking of a powerful hallucinogenic toad venom in short retreats, a practice known as “speed-toading,” is exploding in the Caribbean tourist hub of Tulum, where it’s now a sought-after New Age healing tool.

Bufo alvarius, which contains the fast-acting psychedelic 5-MeO-DMT—regarded by many as the world’s most powerful psychoactive substance—and often referred to simply as bufo, is touted by some of its purveyors as a miracle cure for the ills of the modern world and mental health issues.

Emerging research suggests it reliably brings about mystical experiences, reduces depression, and relieves anxiety. But a significant minority of users report serious mental health difficulties after smoking the so-called “God molecule.”

“I was falling into nothing. I was doing flips. My arms and legs were going in different directions, dancing crazily. I was laughing hysterically because I was so happy, all while floating above my physical body. It was literally the best feeling ever,” recalled 23-year-old former pharmaceutical factory worker “Charlotte”, who asked VICE World News not to use her real name, of her experience with bufo.

VICE World News observed a ceremony in a teepee behind the Bufo Alvarius Sanctuary hotel in Tulum attended by her and her boyfriend, whose only prior experience with psychedelics was doing mushrooms.

Copal resin smoke laced with many intoxicating shards of the dried toad venom rose from an incense burner. Charlotte’s grin disappeared as she started choking on her own bile after smoking the substance. Eventually, the supervisor turned her onto her side and she vomited a bright orange substance onto someone nearby.

Just before the ceremony, which she underwent to see if it would alleviate her tendency for “overthinking,” she said: “We didn’t even know we were going to do it; we just stumbled across this place and saw other people doing it. We didn’t know what bufo was.”

The hard sell begins on Tulum’s main street leading to the beach, where posters of celebrities promoting the toad medicine invite people to experience the natural hallucinogen in the Bufo Alvarius Sanctuary, a 2-year old self-proclaimed natural healing centre and hotel.

The hotel is among those facing criticism over a high-volume approach and exaggerated advertisements, including on videos circulated on WhatsApp, where bufo “testimonies affirm it equals a leap in mental evolution.” One Instagram post even suggests John Lennon may have used it (there is no record of him doing so) as it superimposes the hotel logo onto his T-shirt and uses hashtags like #todomundoporelbufo and #tuluminati; while others claim “Bufo Alvarius therapy is the ultimate tool for ... waking up your higher self” and even communicating with extraterrestrials.

“It's a very commercial way to do it,” says one longtime provider of bufo ceremonies and retreats in Tulum who preferred to remain anonymous as he did not wish to be considered a critic within a small community. “They are not really taking in consideration what is going to happen with the person: It can blow their minds. They are not entirely open to going through the full integration process with them.”

Bufo Alvarius Sanctuary co-founder Valterri Hietaluoma, also known as Dr. Alvarius, seated near the teepee where the private toad venom ceremonies are held multiple times seven days a week for US$125 per person, told VICE World News there have been almost “3,000 happy clients,” from those in their late teens to late 60s, since the hotel opened. Elsewhere in the town, all-inclusive retreats can cost upwards of $3,000, while private and group ceremonies can also be found.

But there are heightened concerns from parts of the community of bufo experts and ceremony facilitators over “speed-toading”—where participants can be in and out of an establishment well within an hour. The experiences can appear more motivated by profit than efforts to provide holistic transformational journeys with “wraparound aftercare.”

Hietaluoma claimed he doesn’t know of any cases where people have been hurt from smoking bufo at the hotel, but he drew a distinction between the toad venom itself and conditions that make its use riskier.
continued next post

[GeneChing]

“There have been some complaints, but they're always because of an underlying condition. So it’s not the medicine,” he said. Hietaluoma added that God-mode is the goal of each session: “If the client doesn't lose the notion of time and space completely, I consider it too low a dose.” Clients are advised on the importance of careful integration upon booking, and he and his staff are available around the clock to answer any future questions and address any concerns, he said.

However, Hietaluoma acknowledged that “if they don't have these few days for integration, and they have to go back to their toxic lives and work, it can be very stressful and cause anxiety.”

Peer-reviewed information about the consequences of bufo use remains relatively scarce in the absence of a clinical study. Trials are ongoing and were recently boosted by a $110m funding injection. But psychedelic therapy experts have warned that bufo should only be used carefully and that if people get dosed too high, they can “white out” and dissociate from their mind and body.

They stress the importance of participants having a couple of days afterward to relax and gently integrate their experiences with all-encompassing support in the same environment as which they smoked the bufo and for them to be thoroughly assessed beforehand. Many people will simply not be ready for the earth-shattering trip, which is completely legal in Mexico.

Neo-shamans in Tulum and elsewhere are increasingly marketing bufo after its discovery in the glands of toads during the latter half of the 20th century. Rapidly increasing global as well as local demand is raising concerns over toad conservation in northwestern Mexico, 3,500 km away in their desert habitat.

“It's becoming a bigger trend every day,” Hietaluoma said, before referring to the potential of bufo as “the solution” to the world’s issues.

Many attest to life-changing illuminating and breakthrough trips, including U.S. President Joe Biden’s son Hunter, former boxer Mike Tyson, and TV personality Christina Haack. At the hotel, testimonials of satisfied customers adorn the walls of the center’s reception. Movie star Jim Carrey (it is not believed he was referring to bufo) is quoted as saying, “Suddenly I was thrown into this expanding amazing feeling of freedom.” Podcast host Joe Rogan compares the use of bufo to “the equivalent of 15 years of psychotherapy.” Hotel owner Fernando Carillo, a renowned Venezuelan actor, claims, “You are not perfect, yet DMT can fix you.”

After the Irish couple smoked 100 mg each, a potentially dangerous so-called God-mode dose, Charlotte echoed other testimonies and said she would have regretted not trying bufo. They exit the teepee within an hour, and are free to do as they wish. They are advised to head to a beach cafe 30 minutes away on foot.

A week after their ceremony, the couple said they were feeling well but that Charlotte had endured days of severe distress. “I couldn’t deal with everything that was going on around me and didn’t know how to react to how I was feeling,” she said. Vivid nightmares where cockroaches swarmed over her neck, causing her to scratch herself so much it hurt, haunted her and she feared she would never return to a balanced emotional and mental state.

But as the comedown trailed off, she began to observe positive changes, too. “I used to think about things way too much, but now I am way more laid-back,” she said.

The couple were split on their opinions of the hotel. “It’s heavily branded. I don’t see it as a true sanctuary,” said Charlotte’s boyfriend Josh, an electrician who had a less powerful experience. “It’s, ‘Come in and take this DMT for this money and then go home.’ I don’t think it’s a spiritual sanctuary.”

Large parts of the bufo community also take a dim view of the hotel, along with the marauding healers who approach travelers in Tulum, including on the beach, offering bufo. “We can do it at dawn so you have the whole day to relax on the beach,” one said.

Another speed-toading critic, David Gallegos, a California therapist who claims to have often been a lone voice at the World Bufo Alvarius Conference (WBAC) regarding the importance of integration, bases his practice on helping people return to better mental health after psychedelic experiences.

He said three of his patients came to him following ceremonies at the hotel, which he claims can cause people damage and precipitate psychosis, insomnia, and paranoia.

“I'm seeing the mental-health side of things, and it's going really dark very fast,” Gallegos said. “I have to put up the beware sign about ‘Dr Alvarius.’ His name has come up with clients who have experienced paranoia at least minimally for a whole month afterwards. People are not sleeping after having their ego wiped out with such high doses.”

Urging bufo not to be taken without a proper safety protocol set up between the participant, facilitator, and a therapist beforehand, he added: “They come to me saying, ‘All I want from you is to feel normal again. I want to feel grounded again.’”

But bufo is generally safe and can bring about transformative and positive benefits where other treatments may have failed, said Rak Razam, a key figure in the bufo community who is editor-in-chief of self-help news website reset.me and co-organiser of the WBAC, which last took place in Mexico City in 2020. But, he cautioned, “there are some health screening issues and reasons why some people are incompatible with it, such as heart problems, extremely high or low blood pressure, and the taking of antidepressants.”

“Also, for people with other underlying issues like bipolar disorder and depression, the medicine must be approached with great care and reverence: It can be the single most profound experience of a person’s life, which is really why it is not to be rushed.” He added that there are organizations like the Conclave, which provide guidelines for practitioners and clients.

“The reverberations will continue to work within you and through you. People have to make sure it’s the right time for them, and that they have enough space in their life to digest the experience and make whatever changes or course corrections are needed … It’s not something to tick off the bucket list, like a bungee jump or a cruise,” said Razam.

But, he added, “It can be life-changing.”

'speed-toading' is the word of the day.