Essential Grappling Moves

[Can-O-Bud]

I've only been studying martial arts for a couple of years now and mainly study Wing Chun and Tai Chi.

This stuff is mainly stand-up martial art, but I read on the Gracie's web site that most street fights end up on the ground.

This concerns me because I know very little about grappling.

Can someone suggest the ESSENTIAL ground grappling moves that I should know to survive on the street?

[Watchman]

Go back to the website you read that comment on. I think there's a forum on their site you can post your question on and receive an answer from the source.

If what the Gracie's say disturbs you so, I suggest you get their opinion on what is "essential" for street-fighting.

[old jong]

Sure,they will say that all fights MUST go to the ground...It is their business!

C'est la vie!

[A Simple Artist]

Just had a thought why in a real fight if you were knocked to the ground would you try to grapple. It makes no sense to me I studies for a few years know and every time I'm sweep or get swept I use ground fighting kicks and punches and try to get back on my feet quickly. Sure I have grappled before but in sparring they don't like you to use ground kick and punches. I can't understand why!

Looking For Free Wavs, Jokes And Free Email? ---->
www.Rickswav.com (http://www.Rickswav.com)

[chokeyouout]

One strike from my egow kraw would stop any ground fighter!

[jjj]

You might want to grapple in a real fight if your attacker gets you on the ground and you can't get up.

I feel sorry for people who don't drink.
When they wake up in the morning,
that's as good as they're going to feel all day.
--Frank Sinatra

[Mr. Nemo]

You study tai chi and you know very little about grappling? Do you study the combative side of tai chi?

If you really want to learn ground grappling, I would suggest you find a school that teaches it. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that "these few moves are all you'll need."

While I don't necessarily agree that "most" fights go to the ground, there is a possibility you'll end up there, and that you'll have to grapple.

[Can-O-Bud]

The reason I'm so concerned about grappling is that, after seeing Royce Gracie win fairly conclusively at UCF against some pretty tough guys, I feel that its probably worth knowing some of that stuff!

Its all very well saying that a fight doesn't have to go to the ground, but in reality it often does. What then? Is my Kung Fu any good there?

[KnightSabre]

I studied Kung Fu for 5 years before I was really aware of the grappling game,when I was introduced to it I was shocked at how I lacked technique and strategy at that fighting range.Now that I've been grappling for almost 4 years I feel competent in any combat range.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Usually it is my belief that fights only end on the ground when the defender loses control. This is sort of ironic, seeing as the Martial Artist trains in taking control, having the ability to manipulate the position etc. of the opponent.

Underaged Drunken Monkey

[Highlander]

While it is not preferable in most situations, there are several reason you might want to take a fight to the ground. In fighting there are many variable that have to be delt with, more so standing than on the ground. One stategy in a fight is to reduce the number of variables you have to deal with without reducing the variables your opponent has to deal with. We see this a lot in boxing when one person will pin his opponent against the ropes or in a corner, thus reducing his opponents mobility and angles of attack. If you can put your opponent on the ground and remains standing, that's even better. But in a case where your opponent is quicker, or you suffer an initial injury to a leg, you may have to sacrafice some of your options in order to reduce your opponents options. In that case you are evening out the playing field and as long as your opponent is loosing more than you are giving up, then it's a good move. This would be like the blind person turning out the lights.

This is just my opinion, but to put it briefly. If a fight goes long enough, the person loosing will take it to the ground to regain the advantage. The person winning will not gain any advantage by going to the ground and probably won't take it there. If a fight can be ended very quickly (within 3 seconds), it probably won't go to the ground unless one of the people chooses to fight there in the first place

[JWTAYLOR]

To answer the initial question:
Learn to get to, from, and out of,
open guard, mount, side mount, back, north/south positions.
Everything else, strikes from the ground, chokes, arm/ankle/knee bars are all secondary to learning these positions.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MO

[Can-O-Bud]

Thanks JWT,

That was probably about the nearest I'll get to an answer on this one!

Can I assume that chokes and armbars are the crucial moves to learn when on the ground? ie submission moves.

Just wanted a brief description of what is best to learn...

Thanks

[JWTAYLOR]

Ground fighting, hell any fighting, is about position, in my only so humble opinion. When on the ground, you can strike, or you can grapple. Sometimes strikes are better, sometimes grappling is better. Depends on the situtation. But learning the position listed above will give you the ability to choose what you want to do. They will give you options. Learn them first, then worry about the rear naked choke, scissor, figure four/american lock, the armbar, ankle bar/knee bar, etc.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[inyo]

i agree with the comments re learning grappling skills to increase your fighting repertoire and to gain experience and insight into a different perspective in martial arts--i have nil training /knowledge in this area and mean no disrespect to any "grapplers''but most posts regarding grappling refer to 1--1 scenarios.how useful would it be when fighting more than one opponent? one of the main functions of training in forms is to teach you to fight multiple opponents.once you hit the ground when fighting more than one person you'd be pretty well fu@@ed wouldn't you??. :confused:

[JWTAYLOR]

Not nearly as fu(ked up as you'd be if you had no ground training at all.
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[jjj]

Amen.

BTW Track and field and Glock Fu are the only styles that works against multiple attackers, anything else is just a Kung Fu movie!

I feel sorry for people who don't drink.
When they wake up in the morning,
that's as good as they're going to feel all day.
--Frank Sinatra

[Watchman]

No kidding! If you get dropped and don't know how to work your way out of the situation, then it doesn't matter if it's one guy or twelve.

The age old anti-grappler argument of multiple attackers in reality is a moot point. I have yet to meet an experienced "grappler" who is stupid enough to force his way into a stationary ground engagement if he were to find himself in a multiple attacker situation.

Here's a question for those of you who like to bring up the multiple attacker issue: yes, the idea may be in your forms, but in reality how much do you actually practice to successfully resolve a multiple attacker situation? And I don't mean being Bruce Lee and standing in the middle of a bunch of guys using your fancy kicks to take them out one by one. I mean actually practicing to have more than one person rushing you and trying to slam you down, onto, into something in order to control you enough to start whooping your @ss.

If you aren't really practicing that, then you aren't really equipped, and fall into the same category you're trying to put "grapplers" into with your assessment that they can't handle situations such as those.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[dumog93]

Well,i cannot say what is a must for everyone as far as your bag of tricks,but i would say the sprawl is the number one defense against a defender trying to change levels on you.Shadowing,or mirroring his movement is another common technique used hand in hand with sprawling and shooting.Kind of a chi sau of footwork so to speak.As for basic moves i say learning how to sprawl and then learning how to strike from your back and get your hips back under to return to your feet would be a good first step.Regardless of what grapplers say,there are advantages to not going to the ground,though i like to be there if it's a semi-controlled situation where i won't get jumped by someone i didn't initally see.Learning how to use your basic checkpoints to unbalance an opponent on the way in is the beginning to understanding grappling.It's mostly common sense.When someone shoot your drop to their level and give ground with your feet while trying to maintain contact with your hands.If they get past that point you can use forearms and shoulder bumps accompanied by laying on top of them to slow the action.If someone happens to get in on you so quickly that you can do none of the above them simply use their momentum against them and don't attempt to match their level,but run over them instead,or walk over would be a better description.There is such a thing as getting too deep.When they shoot "too" well you can take a couple of step over their centerline and unbalance them to their back or at least get it to a mad scramble instead of you getting taken down.I know this is all basic stuff,but you'd be surprised how many people try to learn 100 techniques rather than get the basics sharp.

hope that was what you were asking,

-Devildog

[Mr. Nemo]

"once you hit the ground when fighting more
than one person you'd be pretty well fu@@ed wouldn't you??."

You don't always have a choice about hitting the ground. And if you're fu(ked with ground grappling skills, imagine how fu(ked you'd be without them.

I'd like to add sprawling to what JW Taylor said. If you don't want to go to the ground, a sprawl is a good way to avoid it.

[Ryu]

Some great responses here. I tend to think the "essential" things to learn in grappling is position and control. If you're on the ground, you want to be on top of your opponent so you can either choke him or headbutt, elbow, etc. Ground and Pound is very effective for street defense in my opinion, and you can injure to degree. Mount, Crossbody, knee on stomach are where you would probably want to be. Though in crossbody you can't see your surroundings as good as in mount or knee on stomach. Again, streetfighting is unknown. You don't know what's going to happen until it does. Second, no martial art can fight multiple opponents.
I'll use knives at that point, and run.

Hope that helps somewhat.
You gotta roll in order to get the experience though. Talking about it won't do it. :)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimur

[A Simple Artist]

The thing I've always heard from traditional jujutsu teachers not Brazilian grappling is that most off the techniques don't work unless the opponent is caught off guard or he is tricked into receiving an attach. I've studied it for a while now and have found that that's the truth with using wrist, leg locks and so on. In traditional jujitsu one of the first basic moves is Hokodori when an opponent grabs your wrist and you spread the fingers wide and follow threw with the hands going up. And if you advancing you can push the opponent to the ground very easily. But that's not what people think about today when you say jujutsu they think of the UFC and grappling. I think that's a shame. :( :( :(

Looking For Free Wavs, Jokes And Free Email? ---->
www.Rickswav.com (http://www.Rickswav.com)

[rogue]

It's amazing that some people still think it's an one or the other situation between grappling and striking. I did'nt ever see anything in BJJ that would wreck what feeble striking and JJJ skills I have.

[Brett Again]

It has nothing to do with being Bruce Lee. It has to do with positioning. I can move, keeping the oppenents moving, trying to always keep one of them between myself and the others. Its not easy... often impossible. But it can be done, at least for a few critical seconds, against several opponents. Once one is on the ground, this option is gone.

I'm not favoring one over the other... just giving my interpretation of an often mis-interpreted martial arts "truism."

"This is harder than it looks... and it looks impossible!"
-Chuckie Finster

[Mr. Nemo]

Not only that, but if you're standing up, you're in a better position to run away.

[A Simple Artist]

Us proud fighter cannot runaway we must fight to the last man! :D :D :D :D

"Learn to hold your fire until you can hit your opponent." ---Bruce Lee
http://members.aol.com/sportscardlink/lee.gif