Kicky-poos, is this a decent combo?

[Chang Style Novice]

My kicks are weak and lame and slow and all that stuff you don't really want in a technique. But, while futzing about today, I found something that I think might work ok for me.

Starting with the right foot back, come around for a low roundhouse, aiming at the side of the knee or calf with the top of the foot, toe pointed. If the target is moved so the kick misses, instead of following through with a 360 turn*, bend and lift the knee to chamber and immediately transition to a side kick at belly or face. Does this sound practical and/or potentially effective to you?

*it's entirely possible that the reason I'm able to prevent myself from turning completely around after a low roundkick is that my low round kick is too slow and weak to do any damage even if it connects.

[Laughing Cow]

Personally, I don't like to go for multiple kicks, unless in a jump or in different directions.
I prefer to kick low and than close immediately for a follow up.

As for weak kicks that can be due to a number of factors.

Hip position, leg too straight or too bent, off-balance and compensating with the upper body for it, etc.

[joedoe]

That can work - I have used it before. Make sure you train it so that you can chamber and fire out the sidekick quickly.

Another nice move that I watched a kickboxer use once was when his front leg got kicked from the outside, he allowed his front leg to go with the kick and spin him around, then planted it and fired a sidekick out with the other leg. He did it so smoothly and the other guy didn't knwo what hit him.

[Starchaser107]

yeah i do that sometimes, low round then side kick, if it misses or if it hits , doesnt matter. one good way of saving yourself from being blindsided.

why are your legs weak?

[Watahhh]

If a low round house/sweep misses, you could follow it up with a spinning back-kick too. Or a dragon sweep.

[Chang Style Novice]

My legs are fine, they're just not used to kicking, is all. Ch'ang taiji has a lot of shuai chiao in it, so I'm used to using them for sweeps and lifts and stuff.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
My legs are fine, they're just not used to kicking, is all. Ch'ang taiji has a lot of shuai chiao in it, so I'm used to using them for sweeps and lifts and stuff.

CSN.

Can you pm me on how your styles ties in with the other 5 mainstyles and what are the main differences that make yours separate.

Thanks.

[Chang Style Novice]

I could if I knew more. Sorry.

As I understand it, the taiji I learned is pretty much my teacher's own flavor. I used to think it was the same as Ch'ang Tung Sheng's, but I have learned more now. As best I'm able to piece it together, the guy that taught me learned Yang style in Taiwan, then came to the US and learned Shuai Chiao from John Wang. Being more comfortable with the reactive/sensitive nature of taiji but mindful of the effectiveness of the more traditionally aggressive SC, he developed a long form that suited him, and in addition to the combination of Yang with SC that GM CTS invented, he mixed in the silk reeling and short power methods he'd picked up from various Chen guys he'd also played with and learned from.

I can't say if this helps at all, and sorry I didn't PM it, but maybe it's relevant to the thread, so I'm putting it here.

[Laughing Cow]

CSN.

Thanks, that makes kinda sense.

My last style also was a modified style that my teacher studied in taiwan, funnillly enough on of my fellow students studied under the same guy in Taiwan only 35yrs apart. :D

Sounds like your teacher tried to re-incorporate a lot of the old Chen stuff back into his forms.

Thanks again.

[Starchaser107]

so do you guys make up your own routines?
basic stuff?
are you as ecclectic as your sifu's respectively?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
so do you guys make up your own routines?
basic stuff?
are you as ecclectic as your sifu's respectively?

TJQ is a principle based art and not tech based, so there will be lots of variants between styles, region, teachers and so on.

Naturally there are basic training methods that we all use, but when it comes to forms and similar anything goes.

I got 5 vcd of 5 different people doing the same form taught by the same teacher and they all differ in some aspects.

Each movement in the forms has multiple offensive and defensive applications.

Some you don't learn till you have reached a certain level, and don't look much like the same move in the beginners version of the form.

So there tend to be a lot of people that add or modify the forms.
many add Xing Yi or PaKua stuff in.

Seeya.

[Raatra]

I think what you are thinking of doing is much bettter than the classic "360 turnaround" seen after a decent roundhouse. I never understood that.

[fa_jing]

If your legs are strong then you just need to work on your mechanics. Key objectives would be to develop transfer of force, balance, and arrival in a position that does not compromise your defense. The followup with a sidekick is a good option, but understand that in application this sidekick is not planned, ynwmsaying? It is simply your awareness of your offensive weapons and targets that enables you to take advantage of opportunities to damage the opponent when they present themselves to you. Tactically speaking, rolling the dice there is a chance that you would use that combination, it has come up in sparring.

To summarize (necessary, given my writing style tonight) --
you throw the sidekick because your back is turned and you have the right distance for a sidekick. So we find that a combo is not in fact a combo. It is two distinct techniques. All strikes are opportunistic and spontaneous. Much development goes into being able to battle with this level of oneness with the motion. Quite ironically, IMO, one of the foundations that you need to acheive your oneness with the spontaneousness of the possibilities, is repetition repetition repetition. And furthemore, it is wize to maximize your practice by perfecting the techniques both individually, and as parts of combinations reflecting the highest probability of occurence. So the move is good for 1 move in a single form, you can practice it while shadowboxing, but as for sparring or fighting, you should just let it flow, and it will come out if necessary. OTOH, if you are exposing your back because of one kick that was apparently a whiff, and don't have good side or back kicking skills, then don't bother with that first kick until you are better at kicking, or just train a different approach not involving a wide swinging round kick from that particular vector.

Man, that was nothing like a summary !!! ;) :)

[Starchaser107]

Raatra
the 360 turn around is supposedly when you "commit" to the technique with so much force so that it drives you full circle if you were to miss. the object is to hit the target. I dont like the 360 business cause it leaves you in a dangerous position. unless i suppose you follow through with a well executed back kick, or outside crescent, sweep or backfist or whatever was suggested earlier.
sometimes it makes more sense to cut the circle and go straight into a side kick. but it depends on who youre fighting.

[fa_jing]

BTW, practice of a raised-knee "bird" stance is essential to good kicking, IMO. If you can do 2 minutes each side then you are cooking. What I mean is that your kicks will become useful, not that you won't want to develop them further, of course you will. Also I think you should be able to kick a minimum of 500 kicks total (combined) for both legs. The kicks being of any type, not all of them have to involve a snapping of the knee.

Ooh ooh oh - check this out -- for training your side kick as well as high round kick, try to balance on you base leg in the actual postion from which the kick will be delivered, lean, pull your leg up and turn the hip over 90 degrees, bend the raised leg at the knee and grab your ankle with your lead hand. The other hand can be held in a fist. If you clench your fist, you will improve your ability to balance.

It is very difficult at first, but like riding a bike, you figure it out. No cheating by holding onto the wall or furniture with the rear hand. If your going to do that, then take your hand off of your raised ankle and do slow horizontal kicks. That with hit your side raising muscles for the legs pretty well and improve your balance.

[Starchaser107]

sounds like good advice as well

i agree with raising the knees and performing lots of kicks.

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Starting with the right foot back, come around for a low roundhouse, aiming at the side of the knee or calf with the top of the foot, toe pointed. If the target is moved so the kick misses, instead of following through with a 360 turn*, bend and lift the knee to chamber and immediately transition to a side kick at belly or face.

In Northern Shaolin, we have a very similar move. The difference is that the initial technique is a standing sweep rather than a low roundhouse. Otherwise, it is identical.

Since adding the roundhouse to my own arsenal, I have observed many techniques using the standing sweep and found that the work well for the low round kick, too. The good thing about it is that if the first kick hits, the follow-up sidekick is even more devastating. I haven't had many chances to try it, but I'll be sparring a lot more often in the coming months, so I'll get back to you guys on that soon.

[Oso]

hmmm, never thought that turning 360 after a missed kick was a good idea either.

that combo is a great one, ime. after the 'missed' kick an opponent will often close distance and you can catch them with the side kick to good effect.

I like wall assisted kicks for training. get in a horse facing a wall and rest your hands on it. I do sides, rounds, hooks, backs and rear thrusts from here, both sides. It takes the balance factor out of it but you can then focus on power, speed and height. Not that balance is the least of those but try it with 25-50 of each kick, each side as fast and as high as you can go.

[Judge Pen]

This combo is actually taught in our sparring techniques. We have several sweep to kick combos. I use it often and find its successful more often than it is not. I prefer using a sweep instead of the low round house because you can still throw the sweep with enough force to take them down without putting yourself in an ackward position if you miss.

[apoweyn]

Chang Style,

That combo will work, yeah. I use it myself when I miss a low round kick. It works out well because the person evading the round kick frequently wants to close distance after you miss. So a good straightline followup like the sidekick can catch them as them come in. And your hips are already pretty well set up for it, as you've partially turned your back on him by missing the round kick anyway.

Works particularly well if you put a slight downward angle on the round kick. Your foot finishes the arc, comes right down into position to be fired off again.

If you try this out, give us a report on how it goes, yeah?


Stuart B.

[Judge Pen]

:confused:

Breaking boards is one way to show that you have a powerful and accurate kick, but it's not the way to develop power in your kick.

[MasterKiller]

Kicking a heavy bag will give you a good indication of your power, and will help you learn to keep your balance after the impact.

It's much more realistic than kicking boards.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
:confused:

Breaking boards is one way to show that you have a powerful and accurate kick, but it's not the way to develop power in your kick.

Word.

Breaking boards is one form of feedback. And, to my mind, it's more a gauge of skill than a training tool in and of itself.

A heavy bag will give you plenty of feedback on your power. As will an airshield (and the poor sod holding it). Or thai pads. Or any of a number of other pieces of equipment.

As for combinations being useless until you develop power, that's kinda disingenuous. Yes, there's no point in landing a kick (or even multiple kicks) if it's got no stank on it. But it's equally pointless having a strong kick you can't land. And the fact is that accuracy in kicking isn't enough. Hang a racquetball from a piece of string and kick it. Easy enough for most experienced kickers. Make that racquetball dance and I can guarantee that most experienced kickers are still going to need more than one kick to get the job done.

Power, accuracy, and flow in combinations all develop concurrently. And breaking boards is not, in my opinion, a necessary step in that process.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

i've been sitting her trying to figure out if TM was trolling with that statement or not.



My point was that if you present me with a kick incapable of breaking bones and its high enough I'm gonna grab it . I fing people have a tendency to hold back a little on the heavy bag because they don't want to break the chain.

so, just because someone doesn't land a kick means it's automatically caught?

what about a kick aimed at a soft target? You don't need board/bone breaking strength to land well on the solar plexus, side of neck, throat, kidneys or bladder.

get a bigger chain and use springs to protect the mount.

[apoweyn]

People hold back on heavy bags because they're worried about breaking the chain?

How many people on how many different heavy bags are we talking? If it's one particular bag, I'd recommend somebody fix the bloody thing. Otherwise, that concern seems kinda absurd to me.

Do you think that kicks thrown in combination are more likely to get caught than kicks thrown individually?


My point was that if you present me with a kick incapable of breaking bones and its high enough I'm gonna grab it.

If the kicker is quick or throws in combinations, I wouldn't bank on that.


Stuart B.

[Judge Pen]

I prefer to puch also. If someone figts in my punching range then my kicks are low enough where they are not usually in danger of being caught and they are set up by hand combinations. If someone engages me outside of my punching range I use kick combos to close the distance. The punch can set up the kick or the kicks can set up the punch, but both should be used to compliment one another. I guess I'm not good enough to end a fight with a single powerful kick. :)

[apoweyn]

I guess I'm not good enough to end a fight with a single powerful kick.

I've never seen a fight won with a single powerful kick.

[Starchaser107]

i've ended a few fights with a single powerful kick. also seen a few fights ended in such manner.
all it takes is one good anything and it could be over for any of us.

if your meaning was winning a fight with only one tech. that being a single powerful kick, then no to that me neither, otherwise yes.

As for the comment about the concern over the heavy bag

Get somebody to hold the bag so it doesn't swing as much when you kick it.
Or yeah..fix it.

[apoweyn]

What I'm saying is that I've never seen a fight won with a kick alone. No set up. No feints. No combination. Just a single powerful kick.

I've seen fights where the fight ender was a kick. Pete Williams knocking out Mark Coleman, for example. Or Maurice Smith knocking out... Conan Silveira, I think.

I've seen even more instances where a kick turned the tide. Pat Smith landing a skipping front kick right out of the gate. Igor Zinoviev landing a skipping sidekick in the first Extreme Fighting (I think). Etc.

But in all those cases, it was either set up or followed up.


Stuart B.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by apoweyn
What I'm saying is that I've never seen a fight won with a kick alone. No set up. No feints. No combination. Just a single powerful kick.


Exactly.

Re: Heavy Bag. If you can get someone to hold the board that you are breaking, then they can hold the bag for you as well. Or just get a heavier bag with bigger chains. I like the bags that are 6' to 8' tall. Not going to be lifting that bag too far off the floor with a kick.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by apoweyn
What I'm saying is that I've never seen a fight won with a kick alone. No set up. No feints. No combination. Just a single powerful kick.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/matchvids.cfm?matchid=414

:D

That said, I agree with your main point... with the caveat that really, nothing works unless you set it up correctly. Everything needs to be delivered with proper entry and footwork.

[MasterKiller]

The best part of the video is the hollow "thunk" sound.

[apoweyn]

Great googly moogly!

I stand somewhat corrected. :)

[Oso]

I prefer to puch also. If someone figts in my punching range then my kicks are low enough where they are not usually in danger of being caught and they are set up by hand combinations. If someone engages me outside of my punching range I use kick combos to close the distance. The punch can set up the kick or the kicks can set up the punch, but both should be used to compliment one another. I guess I'm not good enough to end a fight with a single powerful kick.


{takes notes}:)

next question: Do you guys feel like you are throwing less kicks as you (cough, cough) get older? I sure do. I used to be an ok kicker but for reasons I'm still trying to analyze, I'm trending more towards just hands and very little kicking.

[apoweyn]

Oso,

Absolutely. Partially, that's because I started as a taekwondoka. And my later styles deemphasized kicking.

But it also has a lot to do with aging. In college, I could do a couple of hip rotations and be good to go. Now, I need much more prep time. Kicking takes a lot more energy too. And I have less of that available right now. (Obviously, that can be rectified though.)

Those two factors combined, I punch much more than I used to. And, generally, more than I kick.

Besides, I'm simply aware of more (and often, better) tactics now. I remember sparring in a taekwondo class a while back (after studying eskrima). I was nose to nose with a dude, and my teacher was screaming "ax kick!"

I'm thinking, 'are you out of your mind?!'


Stuart B.

[Judge Pen]

I don't think I'm giving away any super secret strategies. :) What worries me is your grappling training. I know just enough to get hurt.

As far as kicking my emphasis has shifted more to punching. I'm not sure if its my advancing age or not. When I first sarted training I was certainly a young flexible buck and looked to kick first and punch second. When I took some time of from formal training, I spent a lot of time working a heavy bag and my hand speed and techniques increased dramatically. I also lost some flexibility because I got lazy with my stretching and forms work. I'm trying to work my kicks more now, but its still more comfortable to punch.

Another reason may be that when I started sparring again, my conditioning wasn't up to snuff, and it was more energy efficient to punch rather than kick.

What's your schedule like the end of this month?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by FatherDog


http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/matchvids.cfm?matchid=414

:D



:eek: Like I said, I'm not that good. :)

[Oso]

JP, just kidding wit ya, and hurting is not on the agenda, bro. just fun.

I've got that tourny the first weekend of Oct (5,6,7)

sorta in a zone right now, or trying to be anyway. the ruleset is kinda freaky and I'm trying to make sure I have it down so I don't lose by forgetting that I can't strike straight to the face.

so, after that I'm wide open for driving across the mountains one weekend.

my girl wants to come too, she's getting her sparring groove back on a bit now.

we had a horrific experience the other day...drove through BOTH Cherokee and Gatlinburg on Labor Day Sunday...holy crap!!

[Starchaser107]

lol, at the videoclip

[fa_jing]

I always liked to test my kicks against the airshield. I would try to knock my partner back. It's a good parallel, because you are dealing with the weight and active resistance of a real person.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Oso
JP, just kidding wit ya, and hurting is not on the agenda, bro. just fun.

I've got that tourny the first weekend of Oct (5,6,7)

sorta in a zone right now, or trying to be anyway. the ruleset is kinda freaky and I'm trying to make sure I have it down so I don't lose by forgetting that I can't strike straight to the face.

so, after that I'm wide open for driving across the mountains one weekend.

my girl wants to come too, she's getting her sparring groove back on a bit now.

we had a horrific experience the other day...drove through BOTH Cherokee and Gatlinburg on Labor Day Sunday...holy crap!!

Good luck on your tourney. I'm not worried about getting hurt, I just know my thing isn't the ground game. I messed around with a guy that did the BJJ and SD. I could take him as long as we started on our feet, but if we started on the ground I was almost helpless. After a couple of months of "playing" and one hyper-extended elbow later I got to where I could last about 3 minutes without having being put in a position to tap, but I could never do anything to him. Very humbling.

I was planning to come your way this fall. Never done the tourist thing down there. Problem is that my girl is a shop-aholic and would complain about watching me work out and feel neglected if I left her to her own devices. :( Know of a shopping sitter down there. I'm not lucky enough to find a woman that likes to spar! :)

I was at Pigeon Forge on Sunday. Traffic is bad horrible even when you know some of the short cuts.

Let's try for some weekend in mid October.

[Chang Style Novice]

Thanks everyone.

[Shaolin-Do]

I think another major contributing factor to the lessening use of kicks, is the increased ability to implement takedowns by your partners. I know that I kick quite a bit in SD, but I know d@mn better than to toss my legs at the dudes I practice SC with, unless its a low kick. (I) never throw anything above midsection against people who are good at takedowns... But if their takedown game is lacking, Ill throw feet at their face all day.

You gonna try gettin into some ground fighting JP?

[Judge Pen]

I wouldn't mind cross-training some, but I don't want to focus on it. When I was messing around with it, the guys had difficulty getting through to take me down. I would hope if I was not pulling the techniques that I would be even better at defending the takedowns.

SC going well? Still going to the KY tourney?

[MasterKiller]

Still going to the KY tourney? He said K-Y. huh huh huh.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
The best part of the video is the hollow "thunk" sound.

Every time I start to drop my hands in boxing, the sound of Goodridge's brainpan meeting shin echoes in my ears, and I bring 'em back up smart-like. :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Currently making travel arangements to the KY tourney.

SC is going real good. Quite humbling getting thrown on the ground 200 times in 2 hours.
:)

[Oso]

SD, how are the headaches?

[Shaolin-Do]

Headaches? Plenty of Pot and aspirin have been taking care of them :)

Its more my lower back that hurts... Muscles get real sore.

[Crimson Phoenix]

regarding the original question, it's a basic (and I mean BASIC) savate combo, regardless the first kick connects or not.

remember there are always two ways to do the same kick: whipped (power is released in a short burst, target doesn't move) or pushed (same power released over a longer time, the target is pushed). So with this simple combo you already have 4 ways of making it...in savate they specially love to whip the roundhouse (hitting with the point of the shoe either the knee or the thigh aims at dealing fast pain to these regions) and push the side kick, so that you regain distance (and make fun at the guy forced to limp several steps back because of the leg you just hurt with the first kick).

Creativity has never been forbidden, even though over creativity can be dangerous hehehe