mental fighting mindset--zen or the other?

[j-himself]

after reading briefly on zen,, it got me thinking. suppsedly, u do fight better with an empty mind. though, how does this apply to a real confrontation? could zen help us expunge the infamous tunnel vison? or lower the addrenaline?
hell, i have no idea since i'm no practioner of zen, yet..
keeping calm is pretty obvious in a fight though, or u could go with the sluggin aggresive attitude. hehe.

what'd u think?

[MasterKiller]

It keeps you from being distracted while fighting, or gardening, or shaving your head for that matter.

[Shaolin-Do]

Never cough while shaving. :(

Different situations... Sometimes I guess it would be good to keep your cool, and it certainly makes you look like a bad mofo... But sometimes you would lose without taking the "Sh!t, you think you're crazy? You aren't sh!t" attitude, but I guess said attitude could be taken while still maintaining a fairly calm mind... More or less learning to direct the adrenaline dump would be a good thing.

[Vajra]

i have ideas (like im not entirely sure you really have a choice in the matter - if someone slaps your kid sister across the face how calm you gonna be) but i tend to just listen to the guys who have been in more fights than me.

[ZIM]

I've read elsewhere that the samurai of japan took up zen becoz they were impressed with the chan monks' ability to die "well".

Maybe it appeals more to some cultures or something.

As for empty mind, thats not necessarily just a zen thing.

[Fu-Pow]

If "autobiographical self" "drops out" and you are operating from core conciousness, this would be the best way to fight.

You wouldn't have your "self" getting in the way all the time.

Animals operate under core conciousness. They have no concept of "self" that is thinking. They are not sentient. There is no knower that knows, they simply know.

Autobiographical self is really an illusion created by core conciousness to monitor the state of the animal brain. If you can see through that illusion then you are half way there.

People talk about "going w/ the flow." It is when they are no longer monitoring their own thought processes and are completely absorbed in the activity they are doing.

This is the part of Zen that is applicable to fighting.

The other part of Zen is to temporarily eliminate core conciousness. But you would not want to fight in that state because you would have no awareness.

[Vajra]

one thing i have always wondered though, if we have developed a sense of self through evolution why would it be in your best interest to tear it down?

i can claim no advanced understanding of no mind, but i have meditated here and there, and experienced some of its more trivial benifits, but still that question remains.

[ZIM]

one thing i have always wondered though, if we have developed a sense of self through evolution why would it be in your best interest to tear it down? who says it was to our collective advantage?

[Former castleva]

"Animals operate under core conciousness. They have no concept of "self" that is thinking. They are not sentient. There is no knower that knows, they simply know.
"

To state a fun fact,we are animals.
How can anyone say that other animals than us (the last surviving species of ****) do not have any concept of self?

[No_Know]

"Animals operate under core conciousness. They have no concept of "self" that is thinking. They are not sentient. There is no knower that knows, they simply know."-Fu-Pow

Theoretically they fight as they do to preservr the self. themselves.

They might not have a sense of Self, But it seems standard that they act out of a sense of at least self-preservation.

Not all peoples accept the Science Database to think of cellular structure to determine if you are an animal or plant or both.

Let us not pick at the term animal. I say this relevant to the varied ways it might be used. Let us more address the intent of use when it was used.-ish perhaps

[Christopher M]

There are different brain circuits involved with inter- vs intra- species aggression. The latter is associated with wide-spread excitation (as in aggression for social or sexual dominance), the former is associated with wide-spread inhibition/relaxation (as in aggression for food or survival; predatory/prey reactions). Perhaps what people are talking about is cultivating the "use" of the "inter/relaxation" circuit within an intra-species self-defense context.


Originally posted by former castleva
How can anyone say that other animals than us do not have any concept of self?

We can try to do this with experiments to assess things like theory of mind or identification of mirror images; or by comparitive neuroanatomy.

[Former castleva]

"We can try to do this with experiments to assess things like theory of mind or identification of mirror images; or by comparitive neuroanatomy."

Yes.While such experiments tend to be a bit biased IMHO.Considering that it is far too easy to presuppose a single type of conciousness.I have support for comparative neuroanatomy in this case.At least certain predictions can be made.I could name at least 4 species that pass mirror tests,as far as that goes then.

[Christopher M]

Yeah, I've very dubious about all of these sorts of experiments that I've read. Just to say that we can try to find answers in these areas...

[Former castleva]

Yeah.Why not.I´m not against it.

(Surprising choise,as far as avatar/caption goes)

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vajra
[B]one thing i have always wondered though, if we have developed a sense of self through evolution why would it be in your best interest to tear it down?

***We developed a sense of self outside of the self as a sort of homeostasis mechanism. If we feel badly then we need to have self to protect our self and remember to move us away from what is making us feel badly. Its a self-protection mechanism.

Howeewr, if you are engaged in some activity and instead of just doing it you are constantly monitoring your internal state (ie self- conciousness) while you are doing it then you slow yourself down.

For example, when you are fighting and you only have half a second to respond. You want your "whole" self involved in the action not the self that is doing and the self that is knowing.

In terms of "enlightenment" or the dissolution of the self. It is not a "tearing down" but rather a deep realization of the impermanence of the "self" even on a core level.

What's the point of it all? The buddhist's would say, to loosen the egos grip on an impernanent world and reduce suffering.

There are some really good books I'd recommend on this subject.

James Austin "Zen and the Brain"

Antonio Demasio "The feeling of what happens"

"Zen Mind, Begginners Mind" Can't remember the author

"Taoist Meditation" Thomas Cleary

"The Eight Gates of Zen" John Daido Loori

"Scholar Warrior" (Philosophy section at the back) Author?

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Former castleva
[B]"Animals operate under core conciousness. They have no concept of "self" that is thinking. They are not sentient. There is no knower that knows, they simply know.
"

To state a fun fact,we are animals.

*** No **** sherlock.

How can anyone say that other animals than us (the last surviving species of ****) do not have any concept of self?

***You got me on that point. I should have wrote have "little concept of self." Obviously, animals that are closely related to us ie chimps, gorillaz etc have are somewhat sentient. Dolphins probably also.

But I'd venture to guess that none have the level of "self-conciousness" that we do.

[Former castleva]

"*** No **** sherlock. "

I strongly disagree.The relatives of us you were to mention,were to find their place in the family hominidae.
BTW,some actually interpret chimps i.e. as humans.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/print.jsp?id=ns99993744

"***You got me on that point. I should have wrote have "little concept of self." Obviously, animals that are closely related to us ie chimps, gorillaz etc have are somewhat sentient. Dolphins probably also. "

I cannot speak for all of the dolphins,but bottlenose´s have gained considerable recognition.
I´d say that the capacity of other animals,especially that of closely related apes of ours,has "grown" fairly quickly (note:The animals themselves probably have not changed that much over a few decades,our limited understanding of their abilities has).
At one time,sapiens was the only one to make tools for an example.Tool making was strongly associated with humanity,decades ago this idea met it´s maker when primatology gained ground.For good reasons,these living relatives of us provide vital clues for human sciences to interpret,for the past&present.
Many do (even in these days) still find these facts disturbing.

"But I'd venture to guess that none have the level of "self-conciousness" that we do."

Hunch&guess.
I partially agree.There are differences between,say,"levels" but essential,hard&fast differences have grown thin.
On the other hand,is there a thing as "no-difference"?

[Fu-Pow]

This thread has gotten way off topic.

I'm not an expert on physiology or cognitive psychology or evolutionary psychology so I'll just end this by saying that I don't know why things are the way they are, they just are.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
It keeps you from being distracted while fighting, or gardening, or shaving your head for that matter.

So is Ridilin chemical Zen?

[Shaolin-Do]

Im hardcore against ridilin. Hey, little jimmy isnt doing so well in class. Its ok, give him some speed, hell do just fine.

Yeah... Ok.
:rolleyes:

So herbs can sometimes be smokable zen, sometimes ADD in a pipe. :)

[Shaolin-Do]

"Animals operate under core conciousness. They have no concept of "self" that is thinking. They are not sentient. There is no knower that knows, they simply know."

I stronly disagree. How can you explain personality differences if the aforementioned is true?

[Serpent]

All animals are sentient. Be careful of your definitions here.

From www.dictionary.com

sentient

\Sen"ti*ent\, a. [L. sentiens, -entis, p. pr. of sentire to discern or perceive by the senses. See Sense.] Having a faculty, or faculties, of sensation and perception. Specif. (Physiol.), especially sensitive; as, the sentient extremities of nerves, which terminate in the various organs or tissues.

[TonyM.]

Whew! Thanks. That was getting silly.:)

[Fu-Pow]

Good point Serpent.

I was using Sentient and Self-Conscious synonymously.

Too many episodes of Star Trek.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


So is Ridilin chemical Zen? Medicating yourself is not the same thing as conquering yourself. Silly rabbit.

Do you appreciate $20 more if you find it on a curb, or if you work 4 hours to earn it?

[greendragon]

the empty mind can achieve "satori" total consciousness in the present moment, the Be Here Now, thus not anticipating or reacting, but joining with the opponent as their move is initiated.

[Raatra]

"How can anyone say that other animals than us do not have any concept of self?"

Anyone with a close relationship with a cat or dog knows that animals have a sense of self. My cat has every nuance a human does. The only difference to me between him and another human is that i dont speak his language.