sword weight

[Starchaser107]

can someone tell me what weight an authentic

(1) Gim

(2) Broadsword

should be?

not practice swords but the real deal.
would they be lightweight but durable?
heavy?
any specifics.

appreciated in advance.

[Shaolin-Do]

Different practitioners would value different weights, Im assuming... A heavier sword will be good for bone breaking and getting through armor, where a lighter sword will be easier to handle, and quicker. A smaller person may want a lighter sword for ease or use, where a larger person may want a heavier sword. Or who knows, maybe the big dude wants a light sword he can swing around hard core like.

Personally, I prefer heavier weapons.

[Starchaser107]

hmnnn.
I can see that possibly being the case for a Broadsword, but I dont think any "hardcore swinging" applies to gim.
but thanks, opinion acknowledged.

[Shaolin-Do]

Heavier gim would still be more sturdy for armor piercing :)

[Liokault]

Its hard to say as the basic truth is that "martial arts" weapons are not even replicas of real weapons any more but have become the a type of weapon in their own right (or wrong as I see it).

The gim or (or jian) tends to be called a tai chi sword now and tends to have a blade length of about 32 inches.

An antique gim of this length would have been a rare thing AND would have been only ceramonial. Jian ment for fighting were shorter.

Please remember that the term gim (jian) just refers to a chinese straight sword as oposed to being a referance to any set type of weapon so swords with lots of dufferant blade lengths and weights are covered by the term.


The sabers are differant in that names refer directly to a type of saber instead of being all grouped up like jian.
So ox tail sabers, goose quill sabers, willow blade sabers are all diferant and were issued to or used by a differant part of the population or army.

The problem with yoir question here is what type of saber are you looking for? I keep reading that the sabers (or broad sword) replicated for kung fu use are ment to be ox tail sabers but if anyone could point me to a antique sword that looks anything like a broad sword I would really be supprised (belive me I have looked).


So that you can answer your own questions you should go look at:

sword forum (http://forums.swordforum.com/index.php?s=) lots of sword info here.




antique sword seller with nice pics (http://www.chinesearms.com/)


hope this helps.

[Starchaser107]

would it then be called something else...

i mean is there a serious difference between the straight swords.

there should be if thats the case.

if one is more flexible and intended for very accurate strikes, as opposed to one that is intended for piercing armour

wouldnt they be practiced differently, i.e. be similar but different types of weapons?

[Shaolin-Do]

"wouldnt they be practiced differently"

Im sure the basics and fundamentals would be essentially the same, but the actual technique and usage may vary quite a bit...

[Starchaser107]

thanks liokault
i'll read from the links you posted, if that doesn't help then i'll try to rephrase the question again.

i believe the type of broadsword i was looking for was a willow leaf broadword , i'll get back to you on that.

and about the jian issue , that would make a great deal of sense . interesting your thoughts are , regarding this:

"Its hard to say as the basic truth is that "martial arts" weapons are not even replicas of real weapons any more but have become the a type of weapon in their own right (or wrong as I see it)."

[Starchaser107]

SD would the Dragon Emporer Sword on this page http://www.chinesearms.com/chinesearms/chinesearms/001/jian/jindex.htm
be what you were talking about re: armour piercing?

[Liokault]

if one is more flexible and intended for very accurate strikes, as opposed to one that is intended for piercing armour

I think the idea of flexiable weapons is a quite new one. Old time soldiers/swordsmen and sword makers didnt want the sword to bend at all and the only flexability built into a sword was the minimum to make it tough enough to take a blow and not shatter.

If I remember rightly the term jian refering to all straight swords (with 2 sharp edges I think) is just like the term knife or blade.

Most old jian I see are less than 22 inches in blade length.

I think that most chinese soldiers used long polearm weapons as main arms and officers had short jian fo defens like a samuri useing a tanto to get though armour after bow range has been passed.


I think that the continued use of jian and its increased blade length is that it was the weapon of officers and scholars and so developed a ceramonial significance.....longer blade was allowed as the sword no longer had to be practical.

We had a Hong Kong chinese (quite old and tough) guy training with us who didnt want to learn the straight sword as he saw it as effeminate.

[Starchaser107]

I think the sword I'm referring to is a scholars or taoists weapon.
If I can only find the old article in that KFMag.

[Christopher M]

2 lbs.

[Starchaser107]

you just drew an arbitrary weight out of a hat didn't you.


(sigh)

[Shaolin-Do]

Actually I think it was pulled from his arse.
:eek:


:D

[Christopher M]

No.

[Starchaser107]

ewww

gross:D

[SanSoo Student]

The length (as in total length, not blade length) for a tai chi sword should only go up to the bottom of your solar plexus. It offers the best range of motion, a sword that is too long feels awkward and alittle to cumbersome.

The length of a broadsword depends on how heavy you like it, because the heaveir it is, the shorter I rather have it. Heavier weapons tend to have worse centers of gravity the more longer they are. So if ur looking for a heavy broadsword, get it at a slightly smaller size.

[MaFuYee]

shaolin-do;
.... how best to put this....
... you are talking out of your arse.

... heavier sword for bone breaking?? ... armor piercing gim?? - lol


****
gims weigh about 2 lbs. (32-42 oz. depending on size)

broad swords weigh about 2.25 to 3 lbs max. (usu, closer to 2.25 - 2.5)

if u want a "real" sword, u are gonna have to PAY.... (absolute min $800. more realistically, $1,200-$1,500.)

if u want 'closer to a real sword', go with kris cutlery.

- you're not going to be hacking ppl's limbs off, ..... are u?

[Starchaser107]

actually no.
and not thinking about purchasing an authentic sword just yet.
I had a basic idea how much the monetary value was. I was just curious about weight.

I actually thought Chris. M. was joking because of the tone of the reply.
My bad, I apologize Chris.

What's really important to me is having an idea of what the "proper" sword weight should be, and what I should expect.

no need for cutlery as faux swords will serve me well enough for practicing until I can aquire authentic ones.

and I reiterate the no once again, with regards to the hacking away. I wasnt taught gim that way. and there would be more economical and gratifying ways to do away with ppl than ancient chinese sword "hacking", were i a psychopath (which by the way i'm not).

strictly for my personal gratification to have an authentic sword.

one day, one day.

[neit]

those "goose feather" dao are pretty cool if you ask me.

[taijiquan_student]

Jian-- 2 lbs.

Christopher M has smashed the correct on the head with a baseball bat. Most people think they were a lot heavier, but they really weren't.

[Robert Marotz]

According to Scott Rodell, who handles many antique changjian, came up with rough "typical" specs one could expect a good jian to have.

From his observations, a changjian that could ideally be used for taijijian (and any other Chinese martial art that uses it--jian aren't specific to certain martial arts) was in the realm of 1-2 lbs, usually closer to 1.5. 2 lbs could be considered on the heavier end of the scale for good quality swords, but still very feasible.

The downside is that you aren't likely to find any really nice quality traditional jian unless you get an antique or get one custom made for you. The better options typically available through sources such as Hanwei or KC tend to be greater than 2 lbs, with balance points closer than was typically found on historical blades.

People will often tell you that a heavier sword with a close balance point is superior to a lighter sword with a further balance point for reasons of rigidity and power. This isn't necessarily true, though it is easier to accomplish in production pieces, and because those pieces are more readily available, lots of people feel the need to justify them.

I am working with some people to try getting some more historically accurate changjian on the production/semi-custom/custom market, but it will be a little while before we see much out there that is really good.

[Starchaser107]

cool thanks,
what about the flexibility of the jian. are there any specifications about this , or is it a matter of preference.

[brothernumber9]

a supply store in maryland was selling a fat broadsword that weighed around 5 lbs. It's really heavy and even a few strong students that got to hold it could tell that after half a form their arms would be hurting, the guard and hilt as well as the handle around the tang were weighted and the handle slightly longer than what I guess would be normal to help counter balance the heavy blade. Because of the intricate designs on the back of the blade It seemed more for show or ceremony, although it was genuinely blacksmithed and not a mass production piece. The overall length was shorter than most. from the back of the blade to the sharp edge, it was the widest broadsword I'd ever seen although I haven't seen much.