Horse Stance - Great for takedowns?

[STUDD WILSON]

Ive been trying out some different moves to thwart takedowns. I study Kuk Sool Won and BJJ. Our horse stance is the same in kuk sool as it is in Northern Shaolin. Now I dont stand in horse and let someone tackle me head on but when the takedown comes I step back at an angle to the attack, assume the stance, and then control their head with my arms to throw them onto the floor. Have any of you guys tried this it works pretty good for me.

Your joking. Right? A horse stance? That sounds like a bad idea to me. Even if you turned at an angle you would still be vulnerable to a single leg takedown.

I didn't know there was a BJJ school in conneticet (spelling).

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

he's in Colorado

Knowing others is wisdom, Knowing the self is enlightenment- Lao Tzu

[Merryprankster]

Who has this worked against? It sounds to me like they haven't learned to "turn the corner" properly...

[Water Dragon]

I've used it against wrestlers. It works but you have to use it actively. Basically, drop straight into it whenever you think they are going to shoot and be ready to push them back. If they initiate the take down before you can drop they will get you everytime.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Merryprankster]

You know, no matter how many times I hear this, I just don't understand what's going on. I guess I'm just not envisioning it properly, because from the description given, I'd go right to the single leg, or ankle pick. When you push, are you maintaining that classic horse stance position, or are you getting your hips and feet back with your weight into the shooter?

As always, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't seem to get it. To forestall anybody, I don't think the sprawl is the ONLY way out of a wrestlers shot. I've been dumped enough times by an uchi mata throw from judo to know that's not true :)

[Water Dragon]

Sure, what a horse stance does is drop your center of gravity. The trick is to keep my center under yours. Also, you can't drop and root. Pushing your hands out is putting pressure on the other guy who now has a higher center than yours. You're looking for a takedown of your own.

Personally, I think it works because the other guy registers the drop as a "warning" that you're about to do something and then backs off. With all things, it comes down to who can control the game.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Water Dragon]

Or maybe think of the horse stance as a sprawl in which you're not dependant on the other guy to hold you up. Play with it and you'll figure it out. Just be proactive rather than reactive.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[DragonzRage]

Using the horse stance movement does stop the takedown if your opponent is sloppy and doesn't really have much technique. After all, you are sinking your weight and spreading out your base. But up against a good wrestler you had better learn real counters or else you going down :D

[8stepsifu]

I think he means using a horse stance to throw the guy. Am I on target?

In which case, yes it's one of the few throws I can use to break a stationary wrestlers root. It did against this guy I know that took nationals for 175 lbs.

If they are actively shooting a crossing leg throw would be better because it allows you more pivot.

Then of course there is the famous throw, "Horse stance lift up" thats common to anything that has crossed paths with shaolin.

King of the Dinosaurs

[Water Dragon]

Just like a sprawl, dropping to a horse stance requires that you initiate before the clinch is completed. If you can sprawl out of a double leg AFTER you've been clinched, you are ONE BAD MUTHA F----!!!!!

More real counters:
Neck Surround
Fading hip (I can't do this but I've seen it done against some good wrestlers)

All of these require the you do something else. You can't do a triangle without a good guard, but if ALL you have is a guard with no sub to back it up, you might as well have no guard.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Boulder Student]

I do something similiar. If I get their head, I end up in the mount facing 180 degrees from my original orientation. I'm doing a variation of Embrace Tiger/Return to Mountain. It is similiar to your step back into horse except I never root the leg I step back with until I am in contact with the opponent. It works about half the time.

If they are getting a leg(s), I end up sprawling.

SW, Are you studying BJJ in Denver or Boulder?

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[STUDD WILSON]

I was reffering to the one leg takedown. when they go for that leg, step back, then grab their head and rotate them onto the floor. Works pretty good if you do it quick.

[Archangel]

Let me get this straight, you threw the national champ at 174 (oh by the way the category is 174 not 175) while in a horse stance. I really want to shake your hand, I've seen Josh Koscheck wrestle for Edinboro a few times and I've never seen him close to being thrown. I don't think he has been thrown for 3 points since maybe grade 10. If you could do that you really should think of trying out for Olympic trials. Josh will do well, but i don't think he can take Williams; you guys are lucky that Gutches isn't wrestling. I'd put my money on him any day.

[Merryprankster]

Actually, even a very good wrestler will be caught off guard by an uchi mata if you use it to throw them when they have attempted a single leg take down. They just aren't used to that counter... You sprawl as a fake, just enough to get a bit of your weight on him, then turn your leg, as if you were going to try and run/mule kick away, secure a ****zer grip on the near arm and place your hand under or over the opponents far armpit, then dump him over your leg for the throw. Gotta COMMIT though. Can't do it half arsed. It took me a few times before I figured out what was happenning, but I've picked it up now. Works GREAT! With sturdy pants (like a gi) on it's even better! Can also be used off a ****zer grip or a russian 2 on 1.

You can sprawl out of a double leg when somebody has it locked up. As long as just one of your feet are contacting the ground, you can still execute the sprawl. Decent counter wrestlers do this all the time. When your feet are off the ground you'll have more problems.

I understand about lowering your center of gravity, but the single leg take down doesn't rely on penetration through the center of gravity the same way that a double does. You can execute a single from much further out because you can sweep out, pick the ankle as you do it, attack the knee, etc, and the finishes are varied too. From everybody's description, I can't figure out how a horse stance wouldn't open you up to a single.

One last thing :) It sounds like the people shooting against Studd have their heads down, and are leaning over their own centers of gravity too far. The move he's talking about sounds very similar to a 1/4 nelson from the front, which I use frequently, and ESPECIALLY when the opponent has their heads down, because it's so easy to get when they do that.

[Water Dragon]

I'll try one more time. Then I quit. It's one of those things that's easier to show than describe.

If were squared off, assuming you're a wrestler: You will be facing me head on, I will have one leg (for me it's the right) forward. You will probably not go for the double because of my position. It wouldn't make sense. The single is right there for you. I realize this so I will protect it. When I see you drop, I will drop also and stick my right hand out and try to press on your left shoulder. I need to be able to keep your center above mine so that you can't get the position for the shoot. I'm not trying to stop the single leg, I'm trying to stop you from being able to start it. Once you start to shoot, I'll probably go down. The only two things I personally know to do once I'm caught is to go for a guillotine and drop into guard (head down) or a neck surround (head up) Neck surround is a combo head lock hip toss and only works if I rush you at the same time.

With the Taiji and now the Shuai Chiao I'm studying, I'm trying to actually get closer than you are. A lot of the stuff I'm learning depends on us being body to body. So I'm using the horse to find a way in. It's a momentary thing while I'm seeking my open door. Don't think it's fool proof because it's not. In fact, the move opens me up for an ankle pick pretty often. (Maybe that will help, try to picture someone in a horse and it's hard for you to take the single but relatively easy to take an ankle pick) Maybe it's hard for you to come "in" but easy to come "down"

As far as I go, if someone clinches and actually wrap the back of my knees--I'm done. I'm going down like a back alley *****.

In conclusion, no, you can't drop straight to a horse and hope for the best. You have to be active and look for your own attack. The other guy HAS to be uncomfortable. It is also not the preferable thing for me. For me, I want to come straight in with my foot between yours (a little behind) and our chests touching. I use the horse to try and get there without being shot on along the way.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Merryprankster]

Ok, what you wrote makes sense water dragon. It's very similar to a buck back... and you are defending your leg by changing levels... Thanks!

Without being haughty, may I make a suggestion w/regards to defending the shot? While you may not be as "twitchy" with the sprawl as a guy who wrestles day in and out, when they shoot, even if they get their hands in on the back of your knees, sprawl, get your hips DOWN and your legs back, secure a ****zer grip with one arm, and use the other hand to try and push the opponents head down to the mat. Use the ****zer grip to counter the opponents hold on your knee. Whatever hand has the ****zer, sink that same leg back and away, and use your hips to help apply pressure on the ****zer.

[Water Dragon]

I try Bro, believe me I try. It's probably one of those things I need to keep working on.

If you understand what I'm doing, maybe you can tell me how to stop that **** ankle pick. :(

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Watchman]

What's a "****zer grip"? :confused:

[Water Dragon]

A "****zer" is basically a wrestlers version of the Taiji ward-off with the added benefit of being able to cause a nasty little rub burn on the face.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Watchman]

Sorry Water Dragon, but I'm not too familiar with Taiji's ward-off movement either. How does it work?

Sorry for the ingnorance.

[8stepsifu]

He was hanging on me and mountain solid, I pivoted underneith, stuck my butt in and threw him, he told me later that they don't do that in wresting because it is easilly reversed for a pin. His underlings that he was training were easy to throw, but I could only get that one on him.

That throw is my strongest and I've used it to throw people over 300 lbs, but he at 175 was harder to throw. This kid has good kung fu.

From Mantis and Tai Chi, my throwing is really good and I learned variations of shoots and leg hooks watching the wrestlers practice. I have a better understanding of my mantis for it

don't worry be happy

[Water Dragon]

A ****zer involves shoving your arm between you and the other guy when they shoot. It really sucks when they catch you across the lips. Slide one arm across the other and then imagine someoone doing that to your face.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Archangel]

You'll have to forgive my smart ass coments;) but come on. I've never ever seen Josh Koscheck thrown like that, or at all for that matter(oh ya you haven't confirmed if it was Josh or not). If the best wrestlers in the country haven't been able to throw him it's difficult for me to understand how you did. That's like me as wrestler stating that I learned how to punch on my own and then sparred with Roy Jones and knocked him out.

"This kid has good kung fu"

LOL I'm willing to bet that it was his wrestling that gave him the good base.


Water Dragon,

A ****zer is a common defence for a single leg. Imagine a person is attacking your right leg, they have it in the air and are about to finish. You take your right leg (the one that's being attacked) and place it on the outside of your attackers knee. Take your right arm and place it between your attackers body and left arm ( in his arm pit). Make sure your arm is in deep, now crank that arm forward and towards the ground. I'm sorry if my explantion is a little confusing but if you want to see one in action. Find the UFC in which Don Frye beat up Amurry Bitteti (BJJ world champ). Frye does it beautifully.

I think you were trying to describe a cross face.

[8stepsifu]

Its not josh, his name is Kane. Anyway, maybe it was just for New England, I'm not sure I heard both.

and your anology is poor, I didn't learn how to throw on my own or grapple on my own, I was taught it in kung fu just as much as my punches and kicks. We have specialized training for throwing and more throws than wrestling does.

I could have used far more throwing if hitting was involved, but I was wrestling according to the rules. I was just looking for a worthy body to roll with, he won wrestling, but I was set up for an achiles lock, a triangle.

Wrestlers train hard, but so did I, so why are you suprised

don't worry be happy

Hey. Archangel is implying that you are lying. I think you are lying too.

His name is Kane? I might actually know the person you are talking about. Is his name Kane Staley? I know a Kane Staley. Not a lot of people named Kane so you might be talking about the same person.

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson

Oh yeah. If you actually threw the Kane Staley i'm talking about then give yourself a pat on the back. He has been wrestling since he was 3 years old.

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson

[8stepsifu]

we both went down (him first) and it wasn't exactly a finesse throw. It was a headlock, with a horse stance, turned into a bow stance, while pushing up with the butt.

I don't give a fu(k if he thinks I'm lying. I've been doing MA since I was 5 and was trained to be strong and suble. He is amazing and has underlying skill that I call kung fu. We both have respect for each other.

all the other wrestlers I threw around with tai chi throws, leaving them spinning on the matt, Kane was a rock. Strong yet suble, I had to use the crudest of throws to get him and even then he flowed with it once we hit the matt to get in the guard.

I've watched this guy take other wrestlers apart, he'd wait till they thought they were winning, give me a knowing look and then put em in a cradle. He's **** good. I didn't beat him wrestling, but I did get a throw off.

I believe that you should lose if you want to improve. So I wrestled with the best around...and lost, but I'm a better MA for it.....and I had lots of submision opportunities, but had to give them up because it was my first time wrestling and I had rules to abide by

don't worry be happy

[Water Dragon]

Thanks Archangel,
I'll play with that. I must have been confused.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Archangel]

Well it's simple, those wrestlers have been training specifically for takedowns and takedown defences. They drill and drill against resisting opponents every single day. But more importantly they COMPETE in tournaments against the best in the city, best in the state, the best in the country. Wrestling is not a sport in which you can be good at simply by training hard; in order to excel and improve you MUST continously test yourself against top opponents in competition not just practice. If you really could defeat them when you have never been in a wrestling competition or trained with wrestlers then my hat is off to you. If you really have that much natural ability you should think about the national trials.

P.S. why do you let that Verder guy get to you so much?

Hey. He threw someone I KNOW around. Ok. I think i believe what your saying. You you happened to kind of throw him a little bit. That's not an outrageous claim. I've acknowlege it but you made it sound bloated like you destroyed the wrestlers or something.

If you think Kane is bad you should try his little brother Seth Staley.

Where do you live 8stepsifu? We might actually live really close if you know Kane. You really did spar a "Kane" did you? Your not just making up the name "Kane". because if you know Kane Staley we can't be that far away. Maybe you could train with me. You could come to the little BJJ gatherings.

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson

[8stepsifu]

archangel: Ok, but I'm not a wrestler. My style of kung fu uses lots of body control and throwing. Tai Chi is standing wrestling, so as confused as you are about the whole thing, I am first and formost a kung fu practitioner.

Verder: Check out www.8step.com/schools (http://www.8step.com/schools)
I am in New Hampshire, give me a call or E-Mail.

Right now I'm training with my students and getting back in fighting shape. ...anything going on in the Boston/ New hampshire area?

don't worry be happy

Ok. Kane must have been on a road trip. Your a little too far away to make it. The distance would be an annoyance.

Are you sure his last name was Staley? You knew his last name didn't you? Which guy are you in the picture? Are you the tall guy? The bald guy? The bearded guy? The woman? The chinese guy? Which one are you?

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson

I can't believe someone from this forum has sparred someone i know. What was the last name of the "Kane" you sparred? Are you sure his last name was Staley?

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson

[Knifefighter]

8step:
In one of your posts above, you said, "...but I was set up for an achiles lock, a triangle." Could you elaborate on this a little bit and explain how you were in the position to do this?

Water Dragon:
The move you were describing is known in wrestling circles as a cross-face.

[Water Dragon]

Yes, I stand corrected. It still ****zes the hell out your face though :eek:

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Archangel]

I think Kane wrestles at 149 lbs not 174. Verder, does your friend wrestle for Maryland in Div III

[8stepsifu]

I don't know his last name, I can find out though.

Verder, I'm none of the pictures people.

The kane I know has a shaved head. Just like me.

Knife fighter, I was in these positions to where I would only need to arch my back or clamp with the other leg. I was just using the experience, I had my own agenda, he was wrestling and winning.

BTW I think Kane is from Maryland. A

Anyways, I'll find out the name, but it's not important. I've been throws by people too, it doesn't really matter. The best of us can get caught in a throw. My whole point is that I pulled it off on the most worthy opponent I know or could find

don't worry be happy

I guess you really did spar Kane. I seriously doubt you could beat him in a fight. Maybe we could spar. Maybe you could make a trip down here once and we could spar a little. If you can throw me then you must be good. Maybe you could even get the chance to spar Kali, our reigning champion.

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson

[This message was edited by Verder on 04-17-01 at 10:02 AM.]

[Knifefighter]

8step:
Are you saying you were in a position to do either a triangle or a foot lock from the same position?

He used the word "positions" so that means he was in different positions.

"Then he was above me. He attacked critial point ver well. I was near death." --- Takada after his fight with Rickson