Is the closet path between two points is a straight line?

[Phenix]

Is the closet path between two points is a straight line?

It is partially correct but not necessary.


Let's get Sun Tzu ..


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The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.

[This sentence contains one of those highly condensed and somewhat enigmatical expressions of which Sun Tzu is so fond. This is how it is explained by Ts`ao Kung: "Make it appear that you are a long way off, then cover the distance rapidly and arrive o n the scene before your opponent." Tu Mu says: "Hoodwink the enemy, so that he may be remiss and leisurely while you are dashing along with utmost speed." Ho Shih gives a slightly different turn: "Although you may have difficult ground to traverse and natural obstacles to encounter this is a drawback which can be turned into actual advantage by celerity of movement." Signal examples of this saying are afforded by the two famous passages across the Alps--that of Hannibal, which laid Italy at his mercy, and that of Napoleon two thousand years later, which resulted in the great victory of Marengo.]


Thus, to take a long and circuitous route, after enticing the enemy out of the way, and though starting after him, to contrive to reach the goal before him, shows knowledge of the artifice of DEVIATION.
[Tu Mu cites the famous march of Chao She in 270 B.C. to relieve the town of O-yu, which was closely invested by a Ch`in army. The King of Chao first consulted Lien P`o on the advisability of attempting a relief, but the latter thought the distance too great, and the intervening country too rugged and difficult. His Majesty then turned to Chao She, who fully admitted the hazardous nature of the march, but finally said: "We shall be like two rats fighting in a whole--and the pluckier one will win!" S o he left the capital with his army, but had only gone a distance of 30 LI when he stopped and began throwing up entrenchments. For 28 days he continued strengthening his fortifications, and took care that spies should carry the intelligence to the enemy. The Ch`in general was overjoyed, and attributed his adversary's tardiness to the fact that the beleaguered city was in the Han State, and thus not actually part of Chao territory. But the spies had no sooner departed than Chao She began a forced march lasting for two days and one night, and arrive on the scene of action with such astonishing rapidity that he was able to occupy a commanding position on the "North hill" before the enemy had got wind of his movements. A crushing defeat fo llowed for the Ch`in forces, who were obliged to raise the siege of O-yu in all haste and retreat across the border.]


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turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain. Is the core of the art. closest path between to point or not is secondary....
Thus, one needs awareness ---- there is a different between traveling in land or sea or air.

Any paradiagm shift? no, it is an evolution. WCK is an evulotion.
and Qing genearl knows Sun Tzu better then the Ming, thus they win.

[IronFist]

If you're talking about in our universe, it's a straight line.

If you're talking about distorting time and space, then it may not be.

But I'm not good enough to mess with time and space yet, so I'll stick to a straight line.

IronFist

[yuanfen]

Hendrik--


wing chun paradox. Circles and lines are interelated. One masks the other.

On Sun Tzu- India learned a brutal lesson in the 1962 Chinese invasion in the Northeast. With the historic confidence in the Himalayas asa natural boundary- the Chinese moved fast over rugged terrain and entered the Brahma putra River valley.
The Himalyas are the highest mountain range in the world.

One of the great inaccurate over-generalizations about wing chun- is that it is a linear art.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by IronFist
If you're talking about in our universe, it's a straight line.

IronFist


Han Fei the advisor of the emperor who get the Great wall to be this huge once told the emperor.... If you wait for a straight bambo to make an arrow. then you might have to wait for a few hundred of years and still may be you won't get it.

IN the cosmos, what is straight?

[Phenix]

Joy,

Yup using the weakness as the strenght . that is the closest.
army will move in because they think one is weak there. army will not suspect the attack because they think himalayas is very very not likely......

so, wck get close... the closes of the two point is the enermy move in thinking it is a weakness but it is a trap... thus weak defeat strong and slow defeat fast..

[IronFist]

About that bamboo arrow thing... yeah, there are no naturally occuring straight lines in nature.

What's your point? Wing Chun isn't a plant or a piece of nature, it's an intangible art form.

If you're talking about 2 or 3 dimensional math, a straight line IS the shortest distance between two points.

Therefore, the shortest distance between my fist and your face is a straight line. You asked about physics, not strategy. The straight line may not be the most succesful route, but it is the shortest distance.

IronFist

[Train]

Is the closet path between two points is a straight line? It is partially correct but not necessary.

Partially Correct??? What?? are you going against science? That's a scientific fact. :)

I usually keep things simple when i do WC. I think you have a bit too much time on your hands Hendrik hehe :) But it's not a bad thing though.......

Peace out!!

[Savi]

originally posted by Phenix
Is the closet path between two points is a straight line? I never heard of the closet path before. Isn't a closet an enclosed space where things are stored? Just kidding... Even still the closest path does not make sense. What do you mean by closest? As in shortest?

The SHORTEST path between two points of reference would be illustrated with a straight line - IF you are ignoring the terrain. If there is an obstacle in your way, what is the next shortest path to the target? Might be a curve. You might have to move the originating point from where you began. It might be a wave, an S-curve. Who knows, too many variables. You will only know when you have to do it. Then you will find if your solution was correct or not.

ON THE OTHER HAND...

By the posed question, I am to assume you think Wing Chun is scientifically oriented; or that Wing Chun is based on math? Wait, aren't math and science (well, certain fields of it) symbiotes? No wait, it's based on concepts. Then again, concepts come from scientifically oriented minds which begin with theories. Concepts have a relationship to principles, oh and then on to idioms, and possibly strategies and tactics, and IF AT ALL POSSIBLE a formula... wow, just can't get away from science can we? Is there any way around it? Bah, in any case Wing Chun isn't a science, no wait it is... the voices in my head won't stop... how fun this is!

"Here's a banana, now eat!"

[Gandolf269]

On a 2 dimensional plane the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. But in a 3 dimensional world, that we live in, there are other factors to consider so the shortest distance may not be straight


If you wait for a straight bambo to make an arrow. then you might have to wait for a few hundred of years and still may be you won't get it.

Phenix -
To make an arrow you take a less than straight stick or bamboo, and using heat and weakness' in the wood, bend it straight to make the arrow. I don't think the Emporer was telling his subject to shoot with a crooked arrow. But to take what resources he had available and make them fit into the model he needed. In this case take a crooked piece of bamboo and manipulate it into a straight arrow.

[Phenix]

Great post savi,

Thanks for correcting my english.



If memory serve, Sun Tzu Pin Fa is translated as The ART of War. Not the Science of WAR.

May be after the MIng Generals get beat or buy out by the Qing, Some monks or some non buddhist monks created the Science of war.
That is very possible and interesting.
Or may be some of them fleed to USA and after study in the university create the Science of war based on thier own ideas.

But, My interest is in The ART of WAR by Sun Tzu not the SCience of WAR.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gandolf269


Phenix -
To make an arrow you take a less than straight stick or bamboo, and using heat and weakness' in the wood, bend it straight to make the arrow. I don't think the Emporer was telling his subject to shoot with a crooked arrow. But to take what resources he had available and make them fit into the model he needed. In this case take a crooked piece of bamboo and manipulate it into a straight arrow.



Thanks.
I agree with you.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Train
Is the closet path between two points is a straight line? It is partially correct but not necessary.

Partially Correct??? What?? are you going against science? That's a scientific fact. :)

I usually keep things simple when i do WC. I think you have a bit too much time on your hands Hendrik hehe :) But it's not a bad thing though.......

Peace out!!




Sure, keep things simple is the greatest.

As for If I have a bit too much time on my hands you seems to concern that the more I post the more no one will believe you? hahahaha


as for against science? who's science? how and when Chan becomes Science?

[Phenix]

Therefore, the shortest distance between my fist and your face is a straight line. ---IRON FIST


True.





You asked about physics, not strategy. --- IRON FIST

Do I asked this way? I didn't see it in my post.


The straight line may not be the most succesful route, but it is the shortest distance. --IRON FIST


True.

[TjD]

the shortest path between two points is indeed a straight line. however when these points are moving things get fishy.

continuously trying to find the shortest distance with two moving points can lead to a curve. one upping the other point and traveling in a straight line to where its going and getting there first is the way to go.

the circle can fuel the line and the line can fuel the circle. what's a curve to your point of view may by a line because of movement.

[Phenix]

TjD,

you are right.





however,
Do we really care is it a line or a circle?
or beat to death the shortest or Closest or closet?

or it is about effectiveness and efficientcy?
and how to implement that?

Who doesn't know how to aim a punch when punching? and is that WCK?

[TjD]

i don't care as long as i'm the one applying the beat down :D

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
If memory serve, Sun Tzu Pin Fa is translated as The ART of War. Not the Science of WAR. Didn't know we were talking about the Art of War. But from your comment, are we to understand that Wing Chun was developed from The Art of War? Or that Wing Chun was influenced by this book in any way? And if so, to what lineage would you be referring?

Perhaps the Wing Chun you have studied is not classified as a science, then I could see why you would argue the point. I still don't see how The Art of War got into the discussion.

Originally posted by Phenix
May be after the MIng Generals get beat or buy out by the Qing, Some monks or some non buddhist monks created the Science of war.
That is very possible and interesting. Your comments here are hardly amusing due to the choice or words, and hardly a believable argument [or counter point] at that. What would lead you to this idea then?

Originally posted by Phenix
Or may be some of them fleed to USA and after study in the university create the Science of war based on thier own ideas.

But, My interest is in The ART of WAR by Sun Tzu not the SCience of WAR. Certainly do have a lot of comedic ideas don't you? I thought your interest was about "the closet path between two points" which addresses a more scientific approach to strategy and tactic. Then you state "partially correct but not necessary" but you don't support this statement with any further information. Just throwing ideas out there without thought?

Originally posted by Phenix
as for against science? who's science? how and when Chan becomes Science? Who's science? Didn't know that science belonged to certain individuals Hendrik! Can you give me a list of current owners of the world of science? I thought that science was objective (non-biased), even though subjectivity (biases) is required to find what is objective - as in factual...

As for Chan being scientific, I didn't know that it was scientific! All I know is that science can verify nearly every technical aspect of the Wing Chun I study which is based on Chan; Chan being the spiritual aspect of it. Both are complimentary to each other.

So what is the closet path between two points that is partially correct but not necessary?

[Rolling_Hand]

<<Certainly do have a lot of comedic ideas don't you? I thought your interest was about "the closet path between two points" which addresses a more scientific approach to strategy and tactic. Then you state "partially correct but not necessary" but you don't support this statement with any further information. Just throwing ideas out there without thought?>>Savi

Whenever he talks about things, fear of being overlooked is leading Hendrik to be petulant.


<<Who's science? Didn't know that science belonged to certain individuals Hendrik! Can you give me a list of current owners of the world of science? I thought that science was objective (non-biased), even though subjectivity (biases) is required to find what is objective - as in factual...>>Savi

Hendrik's secience??? How and when white crane becomes wing chun???

Erroneous views keep us in delilement
While right views remove us from it,
But when we are in a position to discard both of them
We are then absolutely pure.--Hui Neng (A Ch'an master)

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Phenix
Is the closet path between two points is a straight line?

Yes, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. On the other hand, we are also advised to seek the path with the least resistance. What if the "path with least resistance" is not a straight line? Doesn't the 2 sayings contradict each other?

IMHO, we should not interpret the first saying too literally. I think it means that we should use the most direct & simplest solution to the problem presented by our opponent.

[Train]

No!!! I think we have to take everything literally, and if your fist does not look like or shaped exactly like the "YUT" chinese character, you better not throw a WC punch :) Don't listen to Hendrik. He's looney!! hehehehe

[Phenix]

RH, SaVi, and Train all are My great knowledge advisors!
without you people life is not interesting.
Thank you for your point of view.

[method man]

Originally posted by Savi
All I know is that science can verify nearly every technical aspect of the Wing Chun I study which is based on Chan; Chan being the spiritual aspect of it. Both are complimentary to each other.

yes but big problem u proof only work in ten dimension with limt 8 direction just like string theory but string theory is REAL SCIENCE show more than ten dimension!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Wingman


Yes, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. On the other hand, we are also advised to seek the path with the least resistance. What if the "path with least resistance" is not a straight line? Doesn't the 2 sayings contradict each other?

IMHO, we should not interpret the first saying too literally. I think it means that we should use the most direct & simplest solution to the problem presented by our opponent.

agree.

thus. there are more then closest target, shortest distance.... and no permenent FORMULAR can be applied.

Since wck ancestors analogy the art to water we can see it is a very lively art.....




Lets look at what was said by sun tzu
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28. Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one
victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite
variety of circumstances.

[As Wang Hsi sagely remarks: "There is but one root-
principle underlying victory, but the tactics which lead up to it
are infinite in number." With this compare Col. Henderson: "The
rules of strategy are few and simple. They may be learned in a
week. They may be taught by familiar illustrations or a dozen
diagrams. But such knowledge will no more teach a man to lead an
army like Napoleon than a knowledge of grammar will teach him to
write like Gibbon."]

29. Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its
natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards.
30. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to
strike at what is weak.

[Like water, taking the line of least resistance.]
31. Water shapes its course according to the nature of the
ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in
relation to the foe whom he is facing.
32. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so
in warfare there are no constant conditions.
33. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his
opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-
born captain.
34. The five elements (water, fire, wood, metal, earth) are
not always equally predominant;

[That is, as Wang Hsi says: "they predominate
alternately."]

the four seasons make way for each other in turn.

[Literally, "have no invariable seat."]

There are short days and long; the moon has its periods of waning
and waxing.







--------

A chinese martial art has to based chinese on art philoshophy other wise the art has no root and depth. one can interplate as one likes it, but that is not a practice of the ancient chinese .
Oftern, some claim about paradigm shift.... however, one can see the art of war had cover even wider range.... and based on practical experience. not idealogy from some in-experience.

Thus, here, brought out suntzu to let all of us see. there is nothing new under the "sun".

both wck philosophy and technical implimentation can be traces and it is an evolution. and thus, if we lost we can always check into chinese clasic to verify our research direction. no gimmic no special class but every one can look into it.


------

post ago some comments on the water shape hand and five elements, i brought up.... here again we can see water and 5 elements...

[canglong]

originally posted by phenix
Is the closet path between two points is a straight line?
It is partially correct but not necessary.



You asked about physics, not strategy. --- IRON FIST
I believe Iron Fist is correct. Phenix you started a thread on physics and then want to discuss strategy. Yes the closest path between two points is a straight line, how we get there is another topic.

[Rolling_Hand]

<<I believe Iron Fist is correct. Phenix you started a thread on physics and then want to discuss strategy. Yes the closest path between two points is a straight line, how we get there is another topic.>>Canglong


Wonder why Hendrik doesn't support his statement with any further information?

[Phenix]

"What A Wonderful World"

Don't know much about history
don't know much tcm
Don't know much about a kuenkuit book
don't know much about the wck one took...



Don't know much about geography
don't know much sun tzu
Don't know much about white crane
don't know what a slt is for...


Now I do claim to be an 'A' chan student
but I'm tryin' hard to be
For maybe be being an 'A' chan student, baby
I can win the oldest for me


what a wonderful world this would be

:D


Savi, why do you delete you post :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand

Wonder why Rolling_Hand doesn't support his statement with any further information? ---- chan , wck, sun tzu, tcm,, or a phd in physics?:D

[TjD]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
as long as there is no obstruction


why does an obstruction matter? can't you go through it?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
sometimes dealing with an obstruction is less efficient than going another route


Yup.

similar to water flow...

[[Censored]]

There are an infinite number of 3D curves corresponding to one 2D line. Likewise for 4D and 3D areas. If you find this confusing, draw an arc on a piece of paper, and stare at it until you get smarter.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by canglong


I believe Iron Fist is correct.

Yeah, me too. :D


Originally posted by [Censored]
There are an infinite number of 3D curves corresponding to one 2D line. Likewise for 4D and 3D areas. If you find this confusing, draw an arc on a piece of paper, and stare at it until you get smarter.

4D? Isn't the 4th dimension time?

IronFist

[[Censored]]

4D? Isn't the 4th dimension time?

If you like. A curve in 4D would then correspond to a change in speed. Anyway, the point is that even if you completely disregard the context provided by Chinese culture, and consider the issue strictly from a sterile scientific standpoint, "shortest path between two points is a straight line" is a meaningless platitude.

Ask a phoenix about 5D Wing Chun! :eek:

[yuanfen]

Censored sez:even if you completely disregard the context provided by Chinese culture, and consider the issue strictly from a sterile scientific standpoint, "shortest path between two points is a straight line" is a meaningless platitude.
-----------------------------------------------------------

True- one can have a logical proposition but one needs operational definitions to connect to the empirical world!!

[lotus kick]

bla, bla, bla,
all this talk about 2 points and lines on a wing chun form.

here is the 411,

the closest path between two points is a direct line. but that line may be the most difficult to travile.